Oh Mr Finbow, you sound so bitter about the university education of the moment. Would you be the proud owner of an "ology" by any chance? The issue at hand here is why women fail to participate more actively in political debate. I think your delightfully phrased comment manages to illustrate quite beautifully why male debate rarely merits the attention of the 52% of the population who have better things to do with their time than listen to a bunch of reactionary twits pontificate for no better reason than the pleasure of hearing themselves speak. Debate is ultimately aimed at finding a consensus. Until men wise up to this ancient truth I expect that women will continue to ignore male political debate and just carry on mopping up the resulting mess in pretty much the same way as they have been doing for centuries.

Belinda, Paris, France

The gent from Haverhill apparently believes that the only contribution a woman can make is hugs and support groups. It's true that women often, but not always, approach issues differently from men, which makes their voices all the more important. The typical male approach to problems has not always been a rousing success (read World Wars I & II and more.). I do believe, however, that as more young women have the opportunity to participate in competitive sports and hopefully debate clubs in schools, our voices will be given "legs" and carry us to more public discourse. It would help, though, to have less youth and beauty worship thrust at women during their formative years The "t..s" and "a..s mentality that encourages bullying of a woman's public opinion has got to go.

Does the gent in Haverhill have a daughter/neice/granddaughter who he would like to see succeed in life?

Mary Knight, Pittsburgh, PA/ USA

AK of London. Of course women are int eh majority in universities. Most universities have turned themselves over to running touchy feely degrees (most of them need the suffix "studies" to ensure people know what they are!), following the dumbing down of the school system. One should look at areas of univerity subjects that require knowledge and understanding rather than just opinion. I suspect the ratio of male to female would be somwhat different. And why on earth do you assume that merely being 52% of the population qualifies women to run the country? I'm afraid group hugs and support groups instead of policy rarely woerk in the real world.

Bob Finbow, Haverhill, England

Women are a majority in the school and university system. On the whole, they outperform boys and men in these systems. This should filter through into the rest of society.

What I am not happy about though, is the fact that Britain is a so-called representative democracy, but I cannot see the representation. Women also constitute the majority of the population (it's something like 52%) - so isn't it time the majority were ruled by politicians who actually represented them? And who might mitigate the struggle many women have in juggling family and career?
Making society fairer entails a massive shake-up in the kind of people that are representing us.

AK, London,

This woman, at least, is too busy and too pragmatic to enter the world of so-called politics where the debates are held for the sake of debate itself. Not to solve problems, not to further an agenda that will help improve the lives of others (much less save lives), not to come to a place of compromise where both can declare victory and go home - but just to enjoy arguing and pretending that this makes one more powerful.

Thank god our children have at least one sane parent in their lives.

Becky, Montpelier, VT USA

It's only a man's world because we allow them to dominate it. Being from the United States, besides being raised with two brothers, maybe I think differently then most women but I have an opinion and I feel a God given right to put my two cents in to most conversations as well as most forums. You say that you have very little idea how to go about it? What's so hard, if there is a forum or something that lets a person, (be it man or woman), share their thoughts, then do it. After all they are your thoughts, this is a free country, I believe the UK is too, right? There have been women of distinction, Susan B. Anthony for instance, help women in America get the vote. Women are busy, more busy then men, they are the primary caregivers to their children as well as their aged parents, not to mention the cooking, cleaning and caring for husbands. "A woman's work is never done." Which characterizes our lives now, but we need to express and make ourselves heard, take the time to be heard.

Audrey, Marietta, USA

Lucy, London - Your comments betray the victim mentality so prevalent in champions of Women’s rights. “but what a great loss to the world that these women are not being allowed to get to the top, or feeling unwelcome there” and “Women would join the debate if the debate was civilised and not neanderthal”. Get real! It’s a big hard world out there and, to quote a pragmatic politician “if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen”. In the politically correct world that this has become, it is not permitted to even think that, just possibly, women are simply not as good as men in certain fields, but in any unbiased assessment this should at least be considered. You’ve had almost 50 years of (effectively) positive discrmination in favour of women (at considerable financial cost to companies). If they haven’t achieved anything with it yet, perhaps women just aren’t suited to success in business and politics.

Bob Finbow, HAverhill, England

Alice,

For the sake of my own peace of mind, your reasoning that women don't debate certain subjects because of derision (etc) compells me to make the following (hopefully obvious) comments:

When entering into debate, one must be prepared for conflicting and some times passionate counter arguments. Arguments which represent a complete inversion of all that the proponent for an argument believes. Such is the nature of debate. Without it, there would be no such thing as debate - there would only be consensus.

Generally, the (sic) 'harder' an issue is (e.g immigration as oppose to number of swings in the play area), the greater the depth of emotion on all sides, and the fiercer the debate. When examined closely, this is not unreasonable.

Shane, Guildford, UK

It's very much a mans world and I think it might be because for all the clamour and feminism and throwing of selves under horses, us women have discovered that what men do is actually quite BORING so we're kind of backtracking a bit (to our kitchens if you must). I work as a safety engineer in the air industry and ALL of my colleagues are male, ALL of my customers are male, ALL of the other business travellers in the holiday inn are male (is there some secret chain of hotels that all the other women use - if so please advise). My hairdresser asked me what I do and when I told her she didn't hold back 'My God that sounds so boring!'. Luckily I enjoy my job but with the constant battle against male egos and sexist attitudes I'm considering taking up hairdressing - that's where the debates are going on, down the salon!

Lindsay, Bristol,

Men have so dominated the public sphere for so long (and still do) that the ways of argument that are considered ideal, not just by politicians but also the public, tend to reflect their more narrowly focused, systematic view of the world. It is not just men who have been taught to respect masculine ways of arguing and doing things, but women too. More women need to learn to argue more logically and cogently in the way that educated men do, and then combine it with their greater empathy and more complex way of looking at social situations and people. However, unfortunately in our culture we despise femininity (while finding it pleasant in many ways) and don't rate more empathetic ways of arguing in intellectual terms. In order to make women feel more welcome in public debate, we need a radical change in our culture that encourages girls and especially boys not to despise the femininity within all of us, and not just see it as a nice quality that is simply for the private sphere.

Piers, Manchester,

Never has a piece of journalism so resonated with me. I have just co-written a book for women who want to set up a business "Make It Your Business" and I run a business networking group for women. I find across the board that women feel excluded from the world of business and politics and are leaving the rat race (see reduced number of female FTSE directors this year) to set up businesses on their own - but what a great loss to the world that these women are not being allowed to get to the top, or feeling unwelcome there. I am a member of a government advisory committee on small business and at our meeting on monday found myself being shouted down by a grey suit who reminded me of why I gave up my city career as a lawyer. Women would join the debate if the debate was civilised and not neanderthal.

Lucy, London, UK

Its because we women are all beavering away in the background, creating the strategies that ensure that the world still spins whilst the men all congrugate to hurl political tittle-tattle at each other on the 'front line'.

Lindsay, Bristol,

I'm the Editor of a parenting site www.raisingkids.co.uk and our lead article for much of this week has been a call-out for questions for Ruth Kelly, following a trip I made a few weeks ago to 10 Downing Street. The questions we've received have covered a wide range of issues, from the funding of mental health provision to family tax credits and the nanny state. Our readers are just as interested in debating current affairs as they are issues of sibling rivalry and toilet training. Perhaps Alice Miles has simply been looking in the wrong place.

Catherine Hanly, London,

The lady's quite right. There were more women in journalism taking command positions in editorial and political reporting responsibilities both sides of the Atlantic than today. There's not a woman in journalism who has the power today that Dorthy Thompson had. There's not a woman photojournalist with the influence and power Margaret Bourke-White had. There's not a woman in publishing with the clout Clare Booth Luce and Dorothy Kilgallen had.

I cannot name one talk show host who is female addressing sober-minded political debate hosting somethingon the order David Frost or Sir Kenneth Clarke once did.

To my mind, women have lost ground globally in the field of journalism, both instantaneous and print based.

Walt OBrien, Binghamton, NY USA

Alice Miles makes an interesting point. There is not enough female input or comment in todays politics. However I really do not agree that this is "because of the macho, confrontational maleness of our political system" or because of condesending bullying.

It seems that Alice, like Ségolène Royal, beleives that a womans way of doing things would some how transform politics. Ségolène crypticaly said recently its because as a woman she knows that everything is connected. What the hell does tha mean?!
I have worked in a female dominated work enviroment and I tell you that the office poltics were unfortunately nasty bullying and yes, very condesending.

I think it would be great to have more women journalists talking politics etc. However can they please stop taking every single opportunity to take a swipe at us men, we are doing the best we can and if you think you guys can do any better get involved, inspire us show us this way. If not just stop complaining!!

Chris, London, England

As a counter to the article I would state that I am often left frustrated by the lack of interest my girl friend shows in politics and philosophy I would dearly love an extensive conversation with her on the subject. As is true with most, not all, girls I know. There seems to be a recognition in most I have met that these things are to be studied but then that knowledge stays in that sphere of their lives and are less inclined to speak about these things in their "off" time as my male friends (though that is not to say that I have frequent deep conversations with them).

Though having said that I would say with some confidence that women are more aware at a community level while men are more aware at a national level. As always I see it as a marriage of the Male and Female soul that provides the closest to perfection that can be achieved and I do agree with the Ms Miles central point, there needs to be more Female voices in the world providing the balance this world desperately needs

Stephen, Maidstone,

I was in the UK last weekend. I went to Hamley's looking for an educational toy for my 6 year old daughter. To be frank there was nothing.. This stereotyping of women in the West seems to be consist across the board. When we went to look for toys for my son when he was 6 we found a number of them. But for girls the toys were -- make up kits, bratz, etc.

With this stereotyping it is no wonder that we have very few women playing a role in many areas. An example - I was at a global Enterprise Architect conference. There were probably 10% women.

I am not sure what is to be done, but I hope that the media engages it self and looks at half of our population and where it is heading. And toy manufacturers provide something else other than Bratz dolls and make up kits.

After a century of female "enfranchisement" we still see the same role models and direction. Very disappointing.

Nikhil, Bloomfield Hills, USA/MI

ha ha, there a few comments from men on here which illustrate the point exactly.

well done!

ps. am i the only one who doesn't quite understand george william taylor from hull?

moob, UK,

Alice Miles is missing the point - alphamummy readers and contributors have the common denominator of motherhood - and after all the website advertises itself for 'mothers who work, used to work or want to work'. Just because these women write about the merits of different 'sippy cups' ( Tommee Tippee are the best by the way) or party bags doesn't mean they don't have opinions on Trident or the NHS!

m ardron, isleworth, uk

Alice, the whole premise of your article implies that staying at home raising kids is somehow not successful. For you and your circle that may be so, but for many women - and some men - this is a sign of staggering success not least in the more conservative societies of the middle east.

And as for your observation: "where are these voices in the debate over Trident or the future of the health service?conclusion" I suggets you break free from the rarified atmosphere of London's media elites such as the guardian, times etc and take a look into the blogosphere: Arianna Huffington and Michelle Malkin will give you two fine (and opposing) examples of fiery female debate on nuclear weapons and healthcare.

Massimo, London, UK

As a man, I would welcome significantly more female input to politics and political debate, but please, let them come from the centre ground. We need no more like Margaret Thatcher, Shirley Williams or Cherie Blair, or their male equivalent. There's a difference between political conviction and pursuing an ideology to the point of obsession, and to hell with the consequences.

David Harris, London,

I would say the feminisation of the Western world is a much more pernicious problem

Alena, Amsterdam, Holland

It's odd that you should mention the lack of women in the news, i was thinking the same thing whilst watching Crimewatch last night...

Jessica, London,

If women actually did stuff, rather than spending all their time man-bashing, then maybe they would warrant more stories in the paper.

Darren Blacksmith, Brighton,

Alice,
During campaigning for last year's Canadian general election, a well known cabinet minister made the comment , "We need to have more women in the House of Commons".A reporter asked the question "Why" and the politician was totally at loss to find an answer to this simple question. So obviously the original comment was purely politically motivated and made only to win votes.
The answer of course is that if a womans "platform" addresses the concerns of the electorate better than the "platform " of a male opponent then the woman should be elected. She should not be elected just because there is an imbalance between males and females in the House of Commons.

Woman have different skill sets to men not better or worse just different.
For instance in sports there are NO female commentators in any sport where instantaneous comments are required.
You will find women as colour commentators where they have time to prepare their comments.

Pat. Dowling
Edmonton Canada

Pat. Dowling, Edmonton, Alberta Canada

All the women were queing outside Topshop in the hope of catching a glimpse of Kate Moss

Daniel, London,

It's very simple. Women are less forceful with their opinions than men. Men want to win arguments so they can gain status and impress people, so they argue harder and louder than women do. This is just how it is; this is human nature. To wish for a society where all blogs, commentaries, and policital roles are occupied by an equal mix of men and women is idealistic, unnatural, and pointless. I am not saying women have less well though-out opinions or are any less capable than men; far from it. They just do not, by and large, share the same degree of desire to have the loudest roar in the jungle.

Alex, London,

The number of childern being shunted into nurseries instead of being looked after by their own Mum has nearly doubled... well thank goodness for that. When I was younger, I remember the Victorians being sternly criticsed for handing over care of their children to nannies and governesses and the consequent traumas experienced by these supposedly maladjusted children. Funnily enough, I haven't heard that one recently. Don't get me wrong - I don't blame mothers for putting their children in nurseries - mostly they now have to earn half (if not all) the household income. And on top of that, they then generally have to do a lot more of the domestic work then men. If we had kids (which we can't afford to) and I could stay home to look after them, I would. Why on earth would I willingly make myself an exhausted, guilty wreck, trying to do two full time jobs at once? I don't want a high powered job that lands me on the front page of the Guardian - which doesn't mean I can't or don't debate!

CH, London,

want to get woman into politics put shops in the houses of
parliament want to get woman to debate ( text only sorry) BOYS. LADIES we don't bite where have all the good lady
politicians gone surely Maggy was not the last of a
great line of beautiful minds. so ALICE cry out perhaps
you will find new blood to take up your cause or maybe
you can join them in Harvey nicks for coffee.

george william taylor, hull, uk

One hesitates to point this out, but public debates do not simply ignore women, they also ignore a relatively substantial number of men (and for all I know, the entirety of the hermaphrodite population). It is simply that most debate is now conducted within a very narrow range of possibilities, and if one suggests something different, one is dismissed as a crank, whatever one's gender (Trident would be one example, another, from the other end of the political spectrum, would be whether the UK actually needs an NHS at all. Neither is discussed). However, issue should be taken with the idea of women harnessing their power, which (somewhat condescendingly) assumes that women are an important and identifiable group in their own right. Such an approach moves close to rejecting the recognition of women as individuals with their own aspirations, characteristics and experiences, which was surely the triumph of feminism.

Anon, Cambridge,

Let me get this straight.

The queen, Diana, and Thatcher three of the most influential women of modern times were all from the UK.

But you complain no extraordinary woman is in the world stage from the UK today.

Perhaps the Queen would view that differently.

George, Augusta, USA

ANY person who proffers a political opinion is open to " derision, ridicule and patronising commentary", not just women. Why do women always single themselves out in this way? Are you assuming its any easier for us men? Perhaps this self-centric attitude is the reason women dont get involved in wider politics? Get involved, change things, stop navel gazing.

James, Manchester,

Most reporting of public debate stories comes with an inference of party politics, either from the political colours of the newspaper, or the fact that opinion is sought from two ‘sides’ of each debate. This alienates many women, because they cannot be bothered to get drawn into the playground scraps that sensible debates are reduced to when party politics is involved. I always groan inwardly when, during a meaty radio or TV debate, an MP is wheeled on to make some vapid observation which merely restates his party’s agenda. You know what he is going to say before he even opens his mealy mouth. Like many women, I don’t want to nail my colours to a party political mast. It doesn’t suit how I view the world, and it gets in the way of reasoned debate. Alpha Mummy and Mumsnet are so popular because they give women a chance to express their opinions, without reducing every issue to a party political squabble.
http://www.drunkmummy.blogspot.com/

Drunk Mummy, London,

Agreeing with Alice Miles, and the points raised by the other commentators, there's one point overlooked by all - and by media/politicians/bloggers generally, and that is the age of the women.
Any woman over childbearing age or even, dare i say, a pensioner, will simply not be heard. The generational barrier has well and truly been established, there is no 'grannynet' - and as to politics!
We do have our opinions - but unless they restrict themselves to illness and/or pensions, older women, with time to speak out, with wisdom and experience, are treated as people with the mental age of toddlers, not worth listening to, and generally there to be patronized and talked down to.
No wonder any of that age prefer to spend their short time on worthwhile things rather than bang their heads against the wall, trying to get heard!
You only need to look at the TV images to grasp my point: sweet old ladies in nursing care - yes; clever old ladies using their brains - no way!

Vivian G. Evans, Cardiff, Wales

Alice seems to be making a connection between bullying and non-contribution to public life, be it through representation at Westminster or as a contributor to the Timesonline debates. Is she suggesting that after many years of affirmative action, laws against discrimination and so on, that women don't have a voice? Could it not just be that women choose to expend their energy in different directions. I would imagine that Mumsnet and Alphamummy are pretty well man free zones, is this because we are bullied, or is it just that men and women do things in different ways?

David Leslie, Perth, Scotland

A.C. Grayling had a recent piece on 'contrarianism', the tendency of the media to stage and enhance confrontations to 'spice up' debate (Times Higher Education Supplement, April 20). That aggression may be part of what puts women off. Then there's the laziness of those who fail to point out that a cutting put-down or witty aside (especially when it's a personal -- ad feminam? -- attack on some aspect of being female) is not the same as having a good argument. But it may be worse than you suggest, Alice, in that women don't just get bullied once they're in the media. That male-dominated circus may not get as far as asking their opinion, especially if they don't conform to stereotypes. Encouraging women to make their voices heard is fine, but if they're still knocking at a closed door ...

Kay Taylor, Oxford,

Excellent article – raising really important questions. I am sure that the dislike of being derided or patronised is a frequent reason why women shy away from the big issues of public debate, but I think there is another reason. It seems to me that most reporting of these issues comes with an inference of party politics, either from the political colours of the newspaper, or the fact that opinion is sought from two ‘sides’ of each debate.This alienates many women, not because they can’t cope with the big topics, but simply that they cannot be bothered to get drawn into the playground scraps that most sensible debates are reduced to when party politics is involved. I cannot be the only person to groan inwardly when, during a meaty radio or TV debate, an MP is wheeled on to make some vapid observation which merely restates his party’s agenda. You know what he is going to say before he even opens his mealy mouth. At best, the interviewer will try and trip him up on a technicality which may cause him to lose face in the whole tedious political point scoring, but the main issue or debate will be sidelined. Like many women, I don’t want to nail my colours to one or other political mast. It doesn’t suit how I view the world, and it always gets in the
Perhaps the reason that Alpha Mummy and Mumsnet are so popular is because they give women a chance to express their opinions, without reducing every issue to a party political squabble.
http://www.drunkmummy.blogspot.com/

Drunk Mummy, London,

I've definitely had the experiences that Alice describes: when I blog with an obviously female name I get a lot more direct criticism and find my contributions are ridiculed or dismissed much more than when I comment without giving away my gender. When I blog with a female name there is an assumption that as a woman I'm not qualified to speak on economics and politics: in fact I'm degree-qualified in economics and work in it too.

It could be a "vicious circle" effect: so few women raise their voices on economics, politics etc (Alice Miles, you're a great exception) that when women do step up on these issues, it's assumed they are amateurs and uninformed. This discourages further women from the field which results in further derision for the few in it etc. Ditto for women pushing through to the top of their careers.
Sad to think we still have such a long way to go still in 2007...

MB, Edinburgh, Scotland

There is a common saying that "Women can't read maps and men can't read hearts" ..I'm not trying to be gender bias, as I firmly believe in a non-sexist society. But yet, it is a brazen fact that though many a few women form their opinions and view points on issues , be it NHS, Public security , education, or gay marriages, they aren't aired or vented out in the press columns. Perhaps they love to keep them treasured in their bosoms, for reasons better known to them. Be it alphamummy, mumsnet or such blogs, their topics are confined to kids, creche' or some brand conscious designer dresses like Burberrys' etc. We have crossed a millenium, yet it is a 'man's world' with a patriarchial society . Except for the cosmopolitan cities, two-third of our globe is still ringing to the tunes and rhymes of male dominated ideas. Look at the heartland of Africa, or Asia esp. Islamic world. Women are still living in veil be it niqab or hijabs, hiding their faces and personality under male shadows.

Sanjeev Dheer, New Delhi, India

I have a unisex name which I shared with my male cousin. Burt I am a woman. Maybe I get listened to because of that. I do write fairly regularly to Times on Line and also to this is London - dealing with my passion: art. Also my MP, the Mayor and the PM.
But I find that when I argue with my husband, if he is depressed, he will put me down, shout back ( I have to shout - he's hard of hearing) or not answer if we are in public. I speak too clearly in this muttering, mumbling, whispering world of ours.
I am a devout fan of Ken Livingstone: he gets things done. Any woman who has sat through a committee meeting knows the time they waste. Now they're finding Power Point is a waste of our time too. So women vote with their feet. We haven't the time for such twaddle. Volunteer for a committee? I'd rather drill all my teeth without anesthetic down to the bone! God so loved the world He did not send a committee.

Carlyle Braden, Croydon, U.K

The fact that two senior Times women columnists spend so many column inches bemoaning the lack of women in the places where they hope to find them must say something about their world, but what is that? For my part I see women every time I switch on the TV (news, politics, sport - you name it), and the radio seems to be an endless cascade of womens' voices.

Could it be that it is not the world but their view of it that is at fault? They have probably been brought up with the feminist mantra that says that women are the same as men (though better of course) and should be head to head with them in at least equal numbers in every area of life. However passionate the belief, if it is at odds with nature then it is never going to be a fact no matter how much the laws and the culture are skewed in an effort to make it true.

It is sad that so many women seem to value their sex only to the extent that they can deny it and assume the qualities of the other.

Bernard, Norwich, UK

So women have time to volunteer for playgroup commitees but not to indulge in public debate? Or they don't engage in the debate because men "ridicule" them? Has it not occurred to the writer that women are simply choosing to spend their time doing what they want to do and what they feel is important to them, as men do. The problem here is not what women do or don't do, it's that what they do is not what Alice Miles wants them to do and not what she thinks they should do. This same strident voice is heard from outraged feminists across various media, do they not understand that female liberation is about letting women have choices in their actions and not being dictated to by either men or women who think they know best?

Doug Bates, St. Albans,

Hi Alice you perhaps havnt seen how hard the mums at netmums.com has been working! We have campaigned on many , many issues : the cuts in health visitors, raising awareness and support fo post natal depression and most recently 17,000 of our members found time to comment on the food labelling issue (80% in favour of the traffic light scheme). We also host a board for Harriet Harman who canvassed our members opinions in order to develop her "mum-ifesto.
Indeed just before the last election, your paper carried a pre-election report of our survey "what women want" from government. And we have interviewed Tony Blair and Gordon Brown live on GMTV
I think as "just a mum", many of us feel we dont have much of a voice: not many have the gift of their own newspaper column! Do take a look - you and any mums who are interested in making a chance by putting your voice alongside thousands of others at Netmums. Check out our campaign trail.

siobhan freegard, harrow,

I hope I'd never be hostile to an opinion just because it was proferred by a woman. Perhaps the reason for the situation Alice describes is that women actually have a better idea of what is important in life. The apparently small, day-to-day local, family and domestic matters to which she reckons women confine themselves are, I suspect, to most of us in reality of greater interest than al-Qaeda or the transferable tax allowance. Perhaps men are too concerned with changing the world and we should all learn to appreciate it better as it is. Perhaps Alice should worry less.

Barry, Wallington, UK

did that go throught?

siobhan freegard, harrow,

The article illustrates the problem. The author could have written about the war in Iraq, or the inflation letter, or the coming local elections, or anything she chose. However she decided to write as a woman and about women.

Malcolm McLean, Bradford, UK