I have no problem with faith schools being funded by the state, as long as their selection process is maintained by an independent body such as the LEA. From my own experience I have found covert selection to be used in some of these schools, e.g. selecting pupils who are miles outside of the catchment area, because they have the right 'credentials'. What is most upsetting is the fact that I and other parents in the borough are paying for this and being denied a fair opportunity to gain a place for our children.

JD, Manchester,

We have a lot to thank the Church for, in opening up education to children from all backgrounds before Parliament ever did. Church schools, far from being "divisive", were founded on inclusiveness, in allowing poor children access to education as well as the rich.

In early Victorian times, only the children of the well off went to
school. In poor families even the youngest children did some paid work. Most children's only education was Sunday School at church each week. Obviously they learned about the Christian faith; they would also be taught reading and writing.

Churches started to provide day schools for children to attend during the week, as parliament gradually cut the hours that young children did paid work.

Not until 1870 did Parliament pass an Education Act, providing schools where the churches had not been able to.

Tina, South Wales, UK

I am an offender here - the atheist daughter of non-Catholic middle class parents attending an all girls Catholic school.
My parents did not pretend to be Catholic - they admitted their non-Christian faith, and I was accepted anyway, for my instrument grades. Should it be bad for parents to want a good education for their children?
Of course, I have to take GCSE religious studies, mainly on ethics and philosophy from a Catholic viewpoint. Even though I don't believe in God, being taught about Catholicism and other branches of Christianity and Judaism is not a 'bad' thing - on the contrary, it promotes acceptance. Also, a caring ethos that is based on the ideas of forgiveness and kindness is not something to be sniffed at.
Lastly, faith schools are not all about religion. We get taught the standard curriculum for all of the GCSE subjects. I haven't noticed any brain-washing there.

Sylvia, Southampton,

So my son has a choice of 2 secondary schools, and my friend's son has a choice of 4. Reason, his wife is a Catholic.

Fair? Of course not.

Have your faith schools by all means, but not with taxpayer's money thank you.

Adrian, Sheffield, UK

The funny thing I notice is that most of the atheists can't even spell 'atheist', whereas most of the Catholics can spell both 'atheist' and 'Catholic'. Perhaps you atheists should get together and set up your own atheist schools. Or are you just too passive or individualist to get together and do something? No sense of community? Is that it? BTW as a non-Muslim I did send my son a to a Muslim school - to get him out of the local state school (the one Tony Blair woruldn't send his sons to) because I couldn't afford the Oratory but the Muslim school was real value for money!

Ruth, London,

The spiritual bit of education is best left to parents. I was born a Hindu and studied in a Catholic school in a remote part of India. We got an excellent education and nobody tried to convert us. We did attend mass and realised that Jesus had done good things. Result- we put Jesus and Mary in the pantheon of Gods and worshipped them too..

Rahul , London,

HI
If you say faith schools cause problems then what about those schools who say they are not faith schools. If they are Athiests, then i believe Athiesm is another faith. If the schools are successful are getting results then we should support them insted of chasing them out. As a Muslim i believe my kids can give better to the community as true practising Muslims than if they did not practise Islam. The word ISLAM means total submission in the will of GOD. What is the will of GOD? Love & Peace.

ALI, Rotherham,

I, for one, deeply resent the fact that my taxes go to support schools whose very premise is based on exclusivity on the grounds of superstition and unfounded belief.

Arnold Ward, Weybridge, Surrey, UK

All previous comments are wrong, disgusting, and outrageous. I am appalled by you all.

W.A.Holjenns, Manchester, England

Those here arguing that as Christians contribute more money to the system than others they deserve the right to (better) faith schools disgust me. State money should not be paying for education into a faith. If parents want that, I'm sure they're capable of teaching the faith themselves or taking their child to the local gurdwara, temple, church, mosque, synagogue, or other religious institution. Any school receiving state money should be required to educate children about the world, which includes telling them about the things large segments of the world's population believe - favouring no particular one of these belief systems. Strangely, in schools, current religions must be treated with respect, but children are not required to show deference or tolerance towards the ancient Egyptian, Norse, or ancient Greek and Roman religions. The trouble with teaching children about religions is that there are so many of them that a lifetime would not be sufficient to learn about them all.

MN, Rotherham,

Why do schools have to be involved with religion? Why should education include religious matters? Why not include atheism or scientology too? Children are being brainwashed and may not thank for it in their future. I don't think parents should have the right to decide what religion their children should ritualise. Oops did i say that, what i meant was 'practice'. Religion is outdated and old fashioned. In my experience people are not interested and don't want to hear about 'God'.

wendy mc, glasgow, bonnie scotland

My children go to a faith school which has places available for other children of all faiths (many are of a different faith), but the majority of residents in our town choose the state schools instead (its simply what they are used to). Instead of being primarily hothoused for the highest academic achievement the children are taught to be moral, tolerant, kind and nice people, but still reach a high standard. But most of all they have a great time, in a lovely environment. This is what primary school should be about. In contrast to other schools, we do not have swearing in the playground and the parents are fully involved in the school. It may have a slightly more middle class intake, than some schools in our area (I have no evidence), but as we have plenty of places left, this is because of the parents that choose the school, not the school choosing the parents. Alice, where are your numbers to back this up? Where is the evidence? anecdotes based on a few schools is not enough.

Maria, Cardiff, UK

Choosing your child's secondary school is a Prisoners' dilemma.

You have to do the best thing for your child (if you care about their education) but that is not the best for society as a whole.

Mark, Grays, UK

Sir,
Mankind will fight for food, drink, sex , greed and ego etc, with any figleaf of an excuse. Atheist ideologies such as tribal romantic nationalism (patriotism), Communism, Fascism highlight the fact that secularism is not a magical panacea for a "Lennonesque" peace.

SC, London, United Kingdom

I am a single mother to 3 girls. We live in a council estate and I manage on tax credits. The girls are being educated in faith schools. I had no problems getting them a place. My children have friends from all sorts of backgrounds, some coming from as far as Zimbawe. They are taught firm values and bullying is minimum. They have visited HinduTemples and Mosques. Yes, we belong to a particular faith, but that does not make my girls racists or divisive. On the other hand, I watch the kids from our "community" schools walking by: Blacks with blacks, asians with asians, whites with whites...

Fernanda Giles, Woking, Surrey

there are 2 problems, private schools have more money because they charge and faith schools have more money because they get additional funding from whatever church they are affiliated too, either way the state schools loose out because they have fewer resources for quality teachers and any other educational resource, the suggestion of school vouchers is idiotic, as the value of vouchers bieng suggested will barely cover tuition at a state school and certainly wouldn't get a poor but intelligent child into a private school, the one thing that is good about a grammer school is that it takes poor but intelligent children at no fee and gives them the best education, it might not be fair that they are cleverer than thier comprehensive peers who will recieve a worse education but shouldn't we educate our best and brightest to the best of our ability or should we just fail them with exams suitable for toddlers and then wonder why we have become a 3rd rate country

mini, gateshead, england

What anti-religionists deliberately ignore is the fact that faith schools are excellent because of the input of faith professionals, priests, nuns and vicars, in the church, and because of their religious values.

How do you think the church stays open? Because religious people are contributing to building this culture!

Church-goers devote their time and money to the Church, and should therefore not be begrudged reaping the benefits in their childrens education. We need more not less church schools, as their reputaion for excellence proves!

Also I do not want to teach my children the secular belief-system - secular beliefs are 'beliefs' not some neutral standpoint as many contributors so naively argue. There is no position of neutrality!

Alice, Cardiff,

"There should be no faith schools in UK.
Teaching children to have religious faith at an early age, or any age, is the cause of 90% of the problems in Britain today.
If people must have faith, they should be able to decide for themselves when they reach adulthood. Schools should be for learnibg only!

Les, Perth, Australia"

And how, Les, is a child supposed to decide for themself whether they wish to follow a faith or not when they become an adult if they are not given the opportunity to learn about it in the first place?

I was educated at a Catholic school - but we were taught about all manner of faiths. I no longer follow the Catholic religion - but at least I had the education to enable me to make an informed decision when I became an adult. Educating children is one thing, and does not "lead to 90% of problems". Brainwashing them is quite another.

Nicky Butler, London, UK

What parent who cares about the educational environment of their child would want to have anything to do with a rubbish school filled with dross kids whose parents don't give a stuff about education? Politicians don't, so why should anyone else?

Parents will naturally take whatever measures necessary to ensure their child has the best education possible whether in a parentally-backed faith school or expensive private school. Why is this so hard to understand?

As long as faith schools select on faith and not finance, they should be open to everyone, including children from poorer families.

Sarah Hague, Montpellier, France

Alice Miles misses the underlying reason for private schools - public schools fail to provide high-quality education and public schools serve the interests of persons and groups whose goals are to promote atheism and homosexuality and to demote anti-western civilization. Americans take it a step farther to home-based schools. Home-schooled students, including my granddaughter, excel in academics, social adjustment and emotional health. In encourage parents to investigate home schools for their children. For home schoolers, there is no commute, hence no pollution generated. Home schools are inherently accesible to all economic levels.

John White, Rockwall, Texas, USA

Mr Blair gread for having his future in USA/a job in one of the many United Nations bodies has led us to the state that we are in UK. This is a man who does not even wish to pay for holidays even if its to financed by people like Berlesconi.

Do not fall for the spin about getting rid of a dictators, There are plenty of them in the world ( He is one of them, only the electrote has placed him there ) There are many dictators in the world and many injustices. It is not for UK to entangle itself.

The people of such countries should find there resolutions. It is not for UK to try and tell people what is good for them. Iraq had one of the oldest civilisation so they have been managing themselves when the West was in dark ages. If democracy works for the West that does not mean it works for others.

Our boys are dying not to save the lives of Iraqi but to carry the larger Agenda by the neo cons and Mr Blair personal ambitions.

shak, London, UK

To reassure Maurice Hill, my statement that state schools were "as neutral as possible on matters of religion" was made within the context of the 1944 Education Act, which sought to avoid conflict between the different denominations in teaching Christianity in schools. My statement nevertheless acknowledges that the United Kingdom is constitutionally a Christian monarchy. I accept that many contributors to this column write as if the totally secular American Constitution were valid in the UK, but it isn't. There's going to be a political big bang at the next coronation, but that's another issue.

Edmund Burke, Kingston upon Thames, England

There should be no faith schools in UK.
Teaching children to have religious faith at an early age, or any age, is the cause of 90% of the problems in Britain today.
If people must have faith, they should be able to decide for themselves when they reach adulthood. Schools should be for learnibg only!

Les, Perth, Australia

In the name of "inclusion" an awful lot of special schools have been shut.This means children with really difficult behaviour do not get the setting they need and they muck up lots of other childrens schooling.It is also not beyond the wit of man to identify the differing talents of individual children and guide them to appropriate schooling.It is bizarre that we cannot provide really inspiring education for children who have spatial or social abilities rather than the academic abilities as curently defined.Closing any type of school that works is madness.What we need is to add more schools that do.

frances , Tunbridge Wells, uk

Dear Alice,
Your arguments about fairness are rather abstract, and although they may sound 'fair' and politically correct, they are neither fair nor correct.
The problem ultimately is one of quality and aspiration to quality which sections of society aspire to. You may call these sections Catholic, CofE, Muslim or Budhist, but they all aspire to a concept of quality: which the State is no longer able to provide on a wide scale.
GCSEs and A levels have been greatly devalued, dumbed down is the word, by the State. In this context the notion of Grammar schools is quite frankly obsolete and rather futile.
More practical is the fact that a Sixth form college, a good Comprehensive or even a Grammar school Private or Public offer the International Baccalaureat which implies a forward looking all round academically selective Global view of Education, in today's world.
Faith, Grammar, Comprehensive, etc and endless computerised examination factories are of yesterday.

Arnold Attard, Brighton, UK

Typical British attitude: there's something wrong with a lot of schools that -aren't- grammar schools, so they want to shut down the grammar schools.

As for religious schools: if the state pays for them, they should take in ALL kids or shut down. The end.

starling, Lancaster,

Did Alice go to or send her children to a 'Bog Standard comprehensive'?
Does she have a clue what the behaviour in one is really like?

john smith, Glasgow,

"How many four-year-olds even know they are Christian?" Erm, the ones who were christened.

Barney, St Pierre,

My dear cw,

Why should parents have the right to bring up children in their own beliefs? Because the only alternatives in this area are to trust the parents or the state - and in the light of 20th century experience only a mental defective would trust the state.

Michael W Stone, BA FBIS, Peterborough, Cambs

From across The Pond, may I say that my years from 3rd to 8th grade in a Christian school gave me the most wonderful gift in my life: memorizing Scripture. I was trained in the 3R's as well, I'm sure, as my public school friends, whom I joined from 9th grade on. The benefit of learning of Jesus and His love and protection kept me in some tight situations that kids find themselves in. But that didn't make me a Christian, even tho I learned verses. I b/c a believer when I was 19 and found that I needed to make my own decision and ask Jesus into my heart......I did......and He's been with me ever since. But Christian school nurtured my SOUL, something I never received in public school. I am forever thankful for those years, and the foundation of my life that they gave me. For, strangely enough, I did not come from a very loving home. But, I found that in Jesus Christ, I could find love. That helped in all of my studies. And everything else.....

Dorothy S., Woodbine, US, Md.

why should any parent have the right to label a child as a christian, or any other religion, simply because they choose it for themselves? The government should ban religious schools and teach the philosophy of religion to all children equally.

on the other hand, i see no reason why talented children should not be entitled to schooling aimed at their level, and the same for children of other academic levels. for too long this country has lumped everyone just below middling and look at the result.

cw, london,

We sometimes hear politicians, reporters etc talking of people of faith, and people of no faith. How can anyone have no faith? Everyone has faith, whether it is associated with Christianity, Islam, Buddism etc., or with atheism, secularism, communism etc.. Those who decide to follow a certain philosophy or worldview place their faith and belief in that system.
As for the columnists views on faith schools, considering that we all have faith, her article is nonsensicle and misleading.

Elisabeth , Dorchester, UK

Edmund Burke thinks that 'state schools are as neutral as possible on matters of religion'. He is unaware that such schools must, by law, give religious instruction and hold daily worship of the Christian God.
He also considers that anyone who disapproves of selective faith schools, whose stated purpose is to indoctrinate children, is a Stalinist Communist. There speaks another religious Conservative.

Maurice Hill, Jávea, Spain

Why no comment about the needs (and theoretical right ) of children to receive a balanced education , including learning about all different faiths - and none - in well run and maintainted schools?

Why do parents have the "right" under the HRA to ensure their children are taught the religion of their choice?

And conversely why do children - humans as well - have no right not to be indoctrinated in this way?

Why therefore do adult humans have a higher claim to human rights than vulnerable children?

Is it simply because the powerful religious lobby ensured that the HRA included such a medieval approach to "rights".

I wonder why? Could it be that without religious indoctrination at an early age , religions - and the power their leaders exert - would have died out long ago.

Bob Green, Essex, England

Human nature dictates that we need incentives to encourage us to work.
Ones' children are perhaps the greatest incentive of all. If as a result of working hard, you are able to pass on some advantage to your children, financial or educational, you are more likely to strive for success and the country will benefit.
This surely is a central belief of Conservatives, the old Soviet Union proved that treating everyone equally ends in failure.
Mr Cameron believes the goal should be a "grammar school stream" in every school and no doubt the best schools would then evolve to become quasi grammar schools. But surely without selection that will never happen. Successful parents, opting for a certain school, make a successful school. If feckless Johnny and his loutish parents want to join that school, they'll need to improve themselves.
Life is not a lottery, you get out what you put in! Success should be encouraged and rewarded. Selection is an essential reward.

Michael, Tarifa, Spain

null link about Iraq survey

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq /article1530762.ece as US media is not truthful:

It has been two days in a row now that USATODAY.com exhibits extreme bias with their reporting in Iraq. Yesterday, they printed a doom and gloom poll then today "Democracy support sinks" but they never printed or discuss this poll http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq /article1530762.ece "MOST Iraqis believe life is better for them now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a British opinion poll published today." In addition, they did not even cover the rally in support of the war and troops that occured in Washington DC this past weekend where the supporters outnumbered the anti-war protestors 3-1 ratio.

Larry Wagenman, Mesa Arizona, USA/AZ

Kevin of London asks,

"Why are Catholic schools "divisive"? Henry VIII was divisive."

Henry very religious and remained a catholic all his life. He was even declared a 'defender of the faith' by a pope. He was an intelligent chap and studied religion assiduously as a youth. Fair enough, his son and younger daughter were protestant, although Mary had a burning faith in 'Roman' catholicism. The only thing Henry objected to was being ruled by a foreign pope who refused him a divorce for political reasons. So Henry elected himself pope for those regions he was king of but remained catholic in his beliefs. There is a strong argument that Henry was much more religious than the pope who, at that time, was subject to political pressure.

Derek Smith, Brighton, UK

Parents who send their children to church schools are also taxpayers! Parents who send their children to independent schools or home school them suffer the injustice of having to pay through taxation for something they don't benefit from.

William, Northwood,

Surely society educates the next generation for the benefit of the individual and the community to which they belong, not for the benefit of their parents/carers. That they should be subjected to an education based on their parents choice of religion, if they indeed ever had such a choice, is offensive to any understanding of individual rights.

Roy, Bristol,

Alice Miles would clearly prefer the educational system of a dictatorship in this country. The whole point about faith schools is that state schools are as neutral as possible on matters of religion, so faith schools are a democratic tool aimed at making this neutrality a matter of choice for parents, and permitting those of a particular faith to have their own children educated according to their beliefs. If Alice Miles would prefer the old Soviet Union for her own children, that's her business. But let her not seek to impose it on anyone else.

Edmund Burke, Kingston upon Thames, England

I notice on here a large number of comments who attribute the fact the faith schools do better than run of the mill state schools because of their faith aspect. If they hold this true do they also hold true that children of wealthy parents must be the most intelligent of the lot becuse the private sector consistently knocks the socks off the faith sector, or as is more reasonble ascribe it to selection (personally I am in favour of academic selection, it works). From reading the article it appears faith schools are also selecting pupils on ability and this appears to be supported by the evidence that they achieve better results and has notihing to do with faith. Studies even suggest those of faith are less intelligent on average than those of no faith. If faith schools could resolve the problem of underperforming state schools it would not be hard for them to set up and start taking the pupils from the sink schools, but that won't happen because the results would not change.

Rob, Birmingham, UK

Why do so many here use the words 'brainwashing' and 'indoctrination' when talking about the teaching of faith to children?

Do you still believe everything your parents taught you? About money? Sex? Politics? Fashion?

No? Well, our kids won't either. I'm a Christian who is raising my son to be Christian knowing full well that when he becomes a teenager he'll question everything I've ever taught him. In fact -- though secularists will find this hard to grasp -- I urge him to use the brain God gave him and question, question, question. A faith that can't stand up to rigorous examination isn't much of a faith. A Christian friend who died not long ago said, 'The wisest thing you can do is raise your children to be heretics.' Yes, in every area of life.

In raising him this way, I think I will have done my best as a parent according to my own understanding. That's my job. My son will make his own choices and live by his own beliefs. If he does that, I will have succeeded.

Nancy Wood, London, UK

If the taxpayer funds a school, the taxpayer, or the government on his behalf, should define precisely how that school is run and the funds disposed. Those who run the school, including the governors and the admissions criteria they set, are doing so on behalf of the taxpayer. On the other hand, if a school is funded by fee-paying parents, it is fair that it should be run in accordance with their wishes, within broad and tolerant limits set down in law. The present situation allows too many people too much freedom to decide how taxpayers' money is used. Religious faith is a private affair, and is important to a small minority in the UK today, it should not be the business of taxpayer-funded schooling. Worse, in funding faith schooling the taxpayer is funding the perpetuation of religious divides. Faith schools should therefore decide: become non-faith schools, or go private and have parents pay for what they want.

Paul, Lincoln, UK

A system of selection based on religious faith may be unfair (not something I would concede but arguable) but it isn't "random".

Robert Paterson, York, UK

" An Atheist believes there is no God and since this can be neither proved nor disproved, the belief is the result of faith. All schools are faith schools.
gagglepopper, London , UK"

Nice try, but no. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god(s) - this is not the same thing as actively believing there is no god. In the absense of proof either way, the logical default position is actually atheism. (Note that this is not a pro-atheist view, by the way - just logic)

Ed, Sheffield, UK

Kevin of London asks “Why are Catholic schools "divisive"? Henry VIII was divisive. Ours is an open house”. The assessment of the singular involvement of Henry VIII of England provides an effective litmus test of history taught for instruction as opposed to history for educational purposes. True scholarship traces the Reformation movement through the previous centuries and across most of the countries of Europe, and can be seen as an inspiring tale of the triumph of the individual spirit over organised oppression.

We are all entitled to our own conclusions after sufficient study, but schools that filter information and censor the facts are unfit for the purpose.

David Barfield, Greater Manchester, UK

I'm afraid those who would close religious schools have no say in the matter. These schools are required by we who assign importance to our faith and the admissions criteria are rightly based on commitment to the church and school. Any government which even thought of trying to close or prejudice these schools would be out within months. Let that be the end of the matter.

JSeymour, London, England

An Atheist believes there is no God and since this can be neither proved nor disproved, the belief is the result of faith. All schools are faith schools.

I don't know why Paul [Glasgow] should reject the idea of Atheist schools. Atheists need to be more positive. Instead of stopping others they should have the confidence to compete with their own schools. I'm not sure what a rationalist education would look like; would there be any art, literature and music in the curriculam? - after all these are not 'true'. If the schools are a success, you may get religious people pretending to be Atheist.

gagglepopper, London , UK

Well , I am quite surprised as some strange views.Expressed in this column. As an atheist, I apparently do not have any moral values. Furthermore, in the 21st century the amount of "We are right, you are wrong" that exists amongst parents amazes me! Apparently one correspondent regards me as fit only for extermination for my "middle class views" My simple idea that mychildren should make up their own minds about religion, as they mature, is regarded by some as denying them great pleasure. Reliious zealots astound me! But then, I'm all in all a thorough bad lot, not worthy of any education at all!
Fortunately I managed to achieve a University Education
as did both my children, maybe we were just lucky to avoid
the great storm of lightning bolts from both above and below!

DAVID VINTER, Louth, Lincs., UK.

Why are columnists allowed to get away with re hashing the same old codswallop. Faith schools have an important place in society. I am a Catholic who went to Catholic schools between the ages of 4-18. It's true that faith schools do well. Is that through some form of devious selection or is it because most of the parents back the schools when it comes to learning and discipline. Let's not forget that Catholic schools allow in up to 25% non catholics. Also much of their funding comes from the various Catholic Diocese in the UK not all from the state.

Also let's not forget that whilst Catholics are a minority religion in the UK (about 10% of the poulation) my religion has 1 billion members worldwide. Is that inclusive enough for the columnist and the rag tag band of Catholic/Religion haters?

What we need are more faith schools for the growing muslim population. However as most muslims are non white, they will be encouraged, as the religion bashers won't want to be seen as racists

A Thomas, Durham,

This is not really an argument against Faith Schools. It is an argument for state-sponsored education. There is greater horror than surrendering education to the state which has always shown itself all to willing to use education for its own ends. There ought to be free competition in schools as well. Let private schools set their own criteria and if parents dislike them, well they ought to have the right to home-school children according to their own values. Standardisation of education can be achieved if universities set entrance examinations which all schools, educational systems have to prepare their students for. For those who have no intention of going to university, guild-type schools (as in the Middle Ages) or training in the family business/profession would be a suitable alternative. That way, you'll eliminate the state from education while still permitting objective standards to be attained.

Joseph Anthony Debono, Lija, Malta

B. Lee, you are sat in America. What insight you must have to see across the pond. Buddhism and Islam are not generally destructive, only a few fundamentalist Muslims.

Ben, York,

Interesting that in her praise of David Willetts, Alice omits to point out that his daughter, Imogen, went to the private Godolphin School in Hammersmith... How visionary is that

George, London,

Of course we should get rid of faith schools. After all, what do we want with a system that instils a sense of purpose, discipline and a desire to learn when we have the state system; do what you want, when you want and how you want with de-motivated teachers, under-funded schools and a philosophy which tries to be all things to all people! Lets throw out the good and bring everyone down to a common level; illiterate, innumerate and with no sense of future objectives!

Keith Downer, London, UK

Judging by what I have read so far, most of the complainers are atheists and other God-haters. It is a simple fact that Christians -true Christians- deserve the best education possible for their children. It is the Christians of every generation who must preserve the nation and its people from the rot and decay of Socialism, communism, and in the influence of Buddhist, Islam, and other destroyers. This is not a racist statement -just simple truth. The UK was a world power until it allowed foreign atheists to get in. Now, Mother England has regretabbly fallen on hard times.

B. Lee Pemberton, Sarasota, USA Florida

It is such a pity that Alice Miles bases her comments on her experience of church schools on the London and South East.

Brian Donnellan, Wakefield,

My four children all went to local Church of England village primary schools. As far as I recall we were never asked whether we were practising Christians and, in a relatively small community, the fact that we were never in church on Sundays was hardly a secret. Apart from some morning hymns and the usual Christmas nativity plays etc Christianity, as such, was never pushed very hard in the schools. This seems to be fairly typical of Church of England schools. On that basis I have no objections to some state schools having a faith affiliation.
However, if practising the faith is a criterion for admission and if promulgating the main tenants of the faith is a key part of the school’s daily life then there can be no possible justification for such schools receiving state support.

It is debatable whether any parent is entitled to brainwash a child in their particular faith but they certainly should not be doing it at my expense as a taxpayer!

Kevin, Kent,

gagglepopper, atheism is a faith in the same way that not playing football is a sport.

faith schools are grammer schools in religious clothing.

Paul, Glasgow,

To C.Morland, Bath - Of course that is what I was referring to, we live in England not Africa. I was trying to make the point that, in England today, we all get a free and generally good education and that talent will find a way to the top regardless of their school or social background. People do thrive on adversity, a degree of hardship or having to fight for something brings out the best in people whereas coddling people simply robs them of the tools needed to perform at their best, in all spheres of life.

Doug Bates, St. Albans,

I went to a faith school and received a good schooling - in line with the family values that are decided by those up high. I would like to see the so-called "science" subject to be dropped completely from the curriculum and replaced with an "ancient moral rhetoric" class, taught by sexually self suppressed teachers with wandering hands. It never did me any harm.

C Manson, Burnem, OH

Atheism is a faith too - why not have Atheist schools?

gagglepopper, London , UK

Excellent! Dear Alice, yet again spot on. My family is part of the middle classes of professional people of whom you speak. I desperately want to have my son join a good state school where he can interact with children from all backgrounds. Unfortunately, the closest state school to us (and a very good one at that) is RC and we have been clearly told that as non-Catholics we don't stand a chance. I am paying close to 40% of my income in tax and at very least expect a decent education for my son THROUGH the state system - because I believe in it.
Is it reasonable in this country and day and age, to have state-sponsored exclusive and discriminatory religious schools?
This is actually not about selection but about human rights: nobody's child should be discriminated against due to their parents religion. If you start a campaign on this count me in

Dr. A. Spatharou , London,

"People thrive on adversity."

What a singularly inapposite thing to say. I suppose Doug Bates means getting sent to the poorly performing school down the road and not the faith school several miles away, not starving and suffering HIV in some shanty town.

It is perhaps fortunate for this government who have betrayed our children wholesale that, yes, children do survive the former kind of adversity. What a pity they have had to do so.

As for faith schools, whatever works is fine by me. At the risk of spouting a cliche, children are our future and if faith schools are turning out well rounded, caring and well educated children, why on earth should we seek to get rid of them?

C. Morland, Bath,

I was brought up Catholic and educated in Catholic primary and secondary schools. My mum regrets sending me to a primary school so far away from home and I did feel out of place among the neighbourhood children who went to the school at the end of the road.

My children are not baptised but on moving house I included a visit to the local Catholic school when looking for a new school for them as I knew I might have trouble finding places in year 6 and year 2 in such a small town. The head asked me why I wasn't wearing a wedding ring and if I was married. I was divorced and co-habiting at the time so I made my apologies and left. Great selection criteria.

Anyway has no-one heard that old joke about leaving a Catholic school with an A Level in guilt? It took me a while to rid myself of it.

elf in the garden, small town,

Well said, Phil of HK. Likewise, why not adopt the Japanese approach (secular schools)? One of the great delights of living in Japan is that there is very little (if any) social tension caused by having different sects and faiths as the Japanese are irreligious (in the best sense). It's so refreshing to live in a society which has discarded all the dogma, intolerance and religious baggage, and never had an religious wars (apart from massacring a few Christians in foreign enclaves). The rest of the world should take note.

Chie, Tokyo, Japan

I have never understood why some middle class parents are so fixated on the school and not the child. I do not believe that a parent's primary duty is to secure a place at the best school for their child, nor is it appropriate that a child should witness the struggle for his or her 'benefit' of achieving the school place. I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of any such child if I didn't take to being successful, as planned for by Mummy and Daddy.

There is an alternative: use the local school and before long, others of your liking will too - with positive results both to the school and to the children attending.

PS. I am the product of a grammar school but decided to send my child to the local school at each stage. She always walked to and from school with her friends.

Susie, Oxford,

Absolutely. There is a faith school here in Bexhill, Sussex, and nobody knows from one minute to the next how the admisssion criteria are applied. On the one hand non-Catholic children living by the school gate are turned down; yet pupils from one particular non-Catholic primary school in affluent West Bexhill seem to have a lot of success gaining entry. Catholic children get bused in from all over the county, yet there have been high profile cases of Catholic children with special needs living in the town being turned down. Challenges to admissions decisions are met with stonewalling or wounded innocence. The fact that this is also the top school in the county for GCSE results tends to obscure just how rotten is the local High School that all the other kids are obliged to attend.

Richard M, Bexhill on Sea, East Sussex

Ritual superstition must not be allowed to continue as the basis of education. Our education system should be based on secular rationality and meritocratic academic selection.

If we now expect upto 50% of school pupils to go on to university level higher education then they should be selected and educated appropriately. 50% for Grammar Schools - now that would be a good Tory slogan.

CliveR, London, UK

While it may be true that some, perhaps many, church schools need to ensure that their admission policies are fairer, there is a need to examine the complaint that church unfairly draw upon "public funding".

The 2001 National Census revealed (to many people's surprise) that nearly 72% of the British people consider themselves to be Christians. On those grounds there is only an unfair public funding situation if church schools take up more than 72% of the tax payer derived public funding for schools.

Rt Revd Gavin Reid, Beccles, Suffolk

If you want to get rid of faith schools, it should be simple. Raise the standards in non-faith schools so that parents oversubscribe to them, then the non-faith schools will be expanded with extra classes, and more non-faith schools will be built and faith schools will be closed because parents don't want to send their children there.

Except that the faith schools won't close, because it's not just academic performance that parents value, so there will always be parents that prefer a faith school.

Sue, Birmingham, UK

Although I do think that there are a lot of problems that go along with the application to faith schools, I can also see why some parents - the actually religious ones rather than the hypocrites - would want to send their children to a school that has a ethos that is in line with something they have great faith in.

Surely it's worst that middle class people are actually able to pay for their children to have a better education by sending them to a private school?

Liz Fletcher, Sheffield,

Ms. Miles, if you cannot come as far as to understand how important is a Catholic education for Catholics, you should leave these things to those who can appreciate their importance.
What you call "accident of birth" is, by the way, certainly not an accident.

Roberto Ruggeri, London,

There is nothing wrong with faith schools providing they are educationally proficient and stay within the law on racial and religious hatred. Subject to these conditions, parents who wish their children to be educated in a religious faith instead of some secularist mish-mash are entitled to follow their consciences. If non-believers are lying and cheating in order to get their children into such schools, the remedy lies in tightening up the entry qualifications, not in closing the schools.
Thank you, by the way, for the tit-bit about David Cameron's efforts to get his child into a faith school. What's the betting than once he gets into power, all his children will be educated privately?

Geoffrey Warner, Didcot, UK

I'm a Catholic and my kids attend a Catholic school. I've been through primary admissions 3 times and just recently admissions to secondary. For both schools the criteria seem to me to be completely transparent, with faith being of course an important factor. Both schools have a very mixed intake ranging from very deprived children to children of professional parents. The primary has a very good reputation and the secondary an okay one - and not all children attending are Catholic. Key factors for us are the ethos and the disciplined atmosphere, more so than the academic record.
As others have commented, Ms Miles should not tar us all with the same brush and should recognise that not everyone shares her priorities.

Rick, Surrey,

I went to a liberal C of E village primary, and religion was not forced upoon anyone. This is fine, but a friend of mine believes that anyone who doesn't believe in god will go to hell. Nobody anywhere is born thinking this way, so somewhere (parents or school or both) indoctrinates young children.

Ben, York,

Excellent article! I get tired of our two local 'faith schools' banging on about their amazing attendance and fantastic exam results when we all know that their pupils are 'cherry picked' from the far corners of our area. Is excluding children from selection because of their faith or parents careers very Christian? I think not!

Alison Knighton, Durham,

All I can comment on is my daughters’ schools; STM’s intake is below average for free school dinners and above average for children of immigrants, (mainly intra-European rather than inter-continental) but neither statistically significant. The reading age of pupils starts as average but progresses faster in each years in the school. The score in SATS at the end of KS2 is well above average.

JHN’s intake is below average for free school dinners compared with Stevenage as a whole, but average for its larger catchment area. The intake has above average scores at KS2, but that could be down to the feeder primaries.

Both schools are over subscribed have a strong ethos of care and mutual respect. The only parent I know that has considered these schools who is not a RC is one who son has a statement and liked the care and attitude of the staff. The arguments put forward than these schools MUST select are based on their over representation at the top of most school league tables.

John Mohan, LETCHWORTH, Herts

I went to a faith school and I do not remember being 'indoctrinated' or 'brainwashed'. I had a very good education that encouraged me to be openminded and to make up my mind for myself regarding religion.

ejc, london,

Well spoken John Carr

Anyone should have the freedom to believe whatever they wish, but they have absolutely no right whatsoever to use their chosen faith as a means to secure an advantage over another who chooses not to have the same beliefs.
I strongly object to my taxes being used to fund any form of faith based education and believe that in a fair society there is no place for any type of religious or faith influence in any form of education or indeed local government that allows it to continue.

Steve sparrow, Chelmsford, Essex

I see no reason why religion should be in allowed in to a position that can dictate education policy.

Max, Drogheda, Ireland

It would seem faith schools can't do right for doing wrong. If they're teaching their pupils so well parents are fighting to get their children in, how can they be the ones at fault? Instead of whinging about how these great establishments tend to choose - heaven forbid - the children the schools were built for, why not examine their success, take a leaf and emulate them?

Envy is a terrible thing. Envy combined with pride and laziness is disastrous.

ExCatholicSchoolGirl, Birmingham,

The problem with this debate is that there are some good, fair faith schools and some poor ones. Alice is wrong to assume that every one of them is unfair in its admissions criteria.

And as for those of you who say 'keep religion ou of schools', why should they when religion is such an important part of life for so many people throughout the world. It is important to understand why some people act the way they do, because ignorance can so easily lead to hatreed, and anger.

Chris, Epsom,

As Muslim I want my daughter to go to a faith school because I hope she will be with children for whom faith is an important part of their lives. However the criterion for my prefered faith school is that I rank it first and even then I am considered after all the Catholic applicants! How can I convince the school that it should value us as sincere believers (albeit of a different religion) ?

Sarah Waseem , Sutton, UK

There is nothing wrong with faith schools. Parents should have the freedom to send their children to any school. However, it is wrong for the state to subsidise faith schools. Faith schools are propaganda machines for their religion and the state should have nothing to do with them.

Vinay Mehra, Purley, Surrey

for some time I have felt that I am living in a parallel universe to your columnists and this just proves it.

As a governor at a catholic junior school and parent of a child in a catholic secondary school, my perception of catholic schools is the complete opposite of the middle-class bastion. Because these schools tend to take from a much wider catchment, their children are often much more socially diverse than the sterotypical good school in a middle class area. Catholic schools have not historically taken large numbers of children for whom english is a second language but this is changing as patterns of immigration change.

Faith schools are often more successful because their daily life is underpinned by clear ethical beliefs. this is not to say that these beliefs do not exist in other schools but are more difficult to implement and enforce if the headteacher and governing body must consider a number of belief systems. Catholic schools are partly paid for by their parishes.

Jane Trundle, Luton, UK

"a barely covert form of social and academic selection" - at last someone noticing that faith schools have far more to do with money than they do with religion.

Faith schools don't produce good results because they promote religion, but because they recieve far more funding than state schools and are allowed to be selective.

Any school operating under those terms will outperform a state school.

Hannah, Leamington Spa,

Why do faith schools perform better - because they have a better intake. Nothing to do with ethos or Christains can run schools better - all nonsense; the dominant indicator in schools success is the quality of the intake.

Why do they have a better intake? Because the parents care more about their education than other parents do. Any system that places any hurdles in the way of getting in one school vs. another will tend put the better intake into the school with hurdles.

I don't want to send my kids to the worse school in town. Not because it has the worse teachers, the worse curriculum, the worse ethos, but because the kids there are more likely to come from homes where there is no employment, no aspiration, criminality, drug use etc.. This is factual, as evidenced by education's use of free school meals.

This is a truth that most people involved in education know to be true - but are too politically correct to say so.

Well done Alice Miles for bring up this debate

Mark B, Grays, Essex

What a sad piece of journalism. Are we unable to celebrate success and be thankful for the children who get a good start in life? Surely the problem is to improve the underperforming schools?

Pity jouranlsim seems to forget the lessons of history and the origins of all these church schools!

In my experience any family attending a church is eligible to send their child to a church school - a very simple criteria but of course that is life outside of London! Which increasingly seems to be the only area that counts in the whole of the Uk for a range of issues.

The care and dedication of faith schools staff and the ethos offered does pay dividends in behavourial and academic standards.

Also, the parental support is often there as well.

Sadly for Alice outside the metroplois class is not an issue simply whether families attend church, yes of course the system is open to abuse, what system isnt?

james, swansea,

Surely Alice, your argument ought to for us to be rid of faith-managed schooling? If you conceed, and anecdotal evidence does so suggest, that faith schools tend to be better run and therefore produce better results than non-faith schools, to do so would be a mistake. If it so happens that faith schools are cited in so-called middle class areas, we should be funding the faiths to roll out more schools in deprived areas.
There is one issue that gets missed in all this: CHOICE - whether it be for pious adherents, agnostics or hypocrites. In many middle class areas, there is a higher concentration of good schools. Some parents I know have chosen not to send their children to faith schools regardless of their marginal superiority. This suggests that if there is sufficent investment in school standards across the country, the benefit of relative excellence currently conferred by faith schools becomes moot. Don't blame the middle classes...blame the electorate!

Bee Jay, Warwick, UK

WHAT ON EARTH IS WRONG WITH SELECTION? It happens everywhere else. To acknowledge that different people have different academic abilities has become the new blasphemy. But why? Why not accept that people have different strengths and perform best in different ways?

We are obsessed with academic achievements. A nation without sewage workers will stink. A nation without poets will cope (thank you, Stephen Fry). For some bizarre reason, sorting children into groups according according to academic ability has become a dirty word - regardless of how valuable are those who are not academic. It's a dreadful snobbery by politicians, who deam anybody without an academic education to be second-class. I defy anybody - readers or politicians - to come up with a good reason why we should not be allowed to sort children into groups who are academically inclined and groups who are not - and then celebrate the differences.

Roddy Campbell, Christchurch,

I am really quite tired of liberal secularist telling us how wrong we are and deluded we are to hold faith and then getting vexed by the success of church schools. Why should it matter to them? Church schools succeed because they have values, these are inherent to the education provided. Has anybody recently been to a church school? Please do observe the large numbers of ethnic minority pupils in these schools. Middle class? I think not, just parents of children who are real churchgoers and who rightly are offered a place. I don't doubt that there are parents who attend church to get their children into church schools, but five years regular attendance is a very long time to be a hypocrite. Of course, it is not only about attendance, it is about involvement and being part of the life of these communities. Besides, most Vicars are not stupid, they are experienced in sorting out the 'triers' . Go on then be bold start your own faith school for atheist. Leave us alone!

Jeremy Forbes, Basildon,

What a totally crazy approach! The basic fact, and the basic problem, is that people are being compelled to subscribe to a State run nationalized service industry, in this case the Education industry, which does not deliver services they are prepared to use.

The symptom of this is that they will do anything in their power to get alternate provision - they will pay again for private schooling, they will pretend to be religious. Whatever, they don't want any of them rotten vegetables in their house, even if they have paid for them.

And then you have in response people like our columnist whose reaction is, make them!

Fix the problem. Stop trying to make them take the rotten veg from the State grocery store. Get the State out of the education business and let them spend their funding on schools they want to send their kids to.

As they do in Holland, Sweden, Germany....all over. Oh, but no-one over there learns anything. Do they? Do they?

George Johnson, London, England

Would the following be acceptable :

state funded schools for whites only (with some provision for mixed race children provided they can prove some white heritage)

State funded schools for middle and upper classes only (with some provision for the children of highly skilled blue collar workers)

No.

So why in the UK in 2007, are the children of agnostics and atheists legally excluded from entry to approximately 30% of state funded schools?

Is this the last remaining acceptable form of discrimination?

Can we pay 30% less tax please?

Steve, London,

How many of the (catholic? Christian?) respondents would want faith schools to be promoted and protected if we were talking about madrassas? Matthew in London makes the sensible point: if the government cannot improve the system then any parent will play it so that it improves his or her's offspring's chances. Private schools are undergoing a boom because of this; why not faith schools (and they too are motivated to accept atheists and pretenders so as to give the impression that the faith is not in terminal decline). Win-win for everyone.

d'argent, London,

In the provision of any other service, where there is excess demand, this is typically met by an increase in supply. Given that grammar and church schools are so popular, this argues that the population in general ("hard working families?") requires more of these. As a result, we should be building more grammar schools to fulfil what people want and churches should be extending their reach in education. Alternatively, the education department should mimic the success of these institutions and force comprehensive schools to adopt ethos of the chuch schools (discipline, obedience, respect?) and schedules of the grammars (teach to pass exams perhaps?) so that the comprehensives can compete with the highly successful schools that are so derided by running down church and grammar education. Without these instituions the aspirational sections of society (not all middle class) will "strike" and leave public education altogether. This is mannar from heaven for the private sector.

John, London, UK

I used to be bored to tears at school because nothing was a challenge to me. The teacher even made me teach 'reading' to my 41 classmates while he did some admin tasks. I sat the equivalent to the 11-plus in my country and went to the top girls school there, where I once came nearly bottom of the class, much to the shock of my parents.
For me, selection on ability is good. Had I gone to the nearest secondary school, I would have died from boredom.
If we can't select by ability, then we must select by other criteria to ensure that a school's standard remains high. If (faith) schools do not select, soon the intake will become of 'inferior' quality, mark my words, and soon the school will go the way of sink schools, ie one less good school for the future generation. Is that what parents want?
Like it or not, the religious ethos of faith schools AND the involvement of concerned and educated parents make a huge difference in schools.

SP Lee, Harrow, UK

In response to the accusation that faith schools are divisive I’d like to highlight my own experience of attending faith schools during my childhood: a Catholic primary in Sutton, South London, and more pertinently a Catholic secondary in Croydon, South London. The latter school consisted of students with parents from a wide array of backgrounds from Goa to Poland, Italy to the West Indies, and many more beyond. Since leaving that school the mix of ethnicities in the subsequent secular college and secular university that I attended was a lot less. However, the early experience, as far as I can tell, did me little harm; amongst my closest friends now I can count a Muslim from Lebanon, a Jew (via Russia), a few too many atheists and agnostics from amongst other nations Portugal, Cyprus and Ireland. At work I sit next to an English atheist, diagonally opposite a Jew (via France and Spain), and directly opposite an Indian. I also attend an Ecumenical Christian group at work consisting of Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists and Pentecostals of European, African and Asian origin. Divisive is not one adjective I’d use for the lasting effect of faith schools on my life.

Mark, South London, UK

Fine sentiment, Alice, but I think, at the end of the day, you would be disappointed with the results of an outlawing of covert selection through the faith school system. As long as parents' outlook is that life is a competition, so they will give their own children whatever it takes to move up the success ladder, no matter how unfair this may be to everyone else's children. So you block an avenue to preferment - they'll just find another one.

What an properly social State can do is at the other end of the process. Focus on fairness to the children, not the parents. Set a goal that each child is to receive, in total, equal amounts of educational input up to age 16. So that a disproportionate amount of State resource is directed at the children of parents who are least able or willing to add to their child's education. Make it understood that the carefully selected schools of aspirational parents are the ones which least need resource allocation, and direct resource accordingly.

Simon Stephenson, Windermere, UK

When will opinion leaders like Alice Miles realise that the biggest issues facing all of us, but particularly parents, is how to modify behaviour. Current law and politically correct and risk averse officials have all but excluded the idea of positive value teaching as a component of any public service. In state education the only area permitted for teachers to demonstrate and teach effective, respectful, civilised and selfless behaviour is Faith schools. The big attraction of a Church School is not their academic achievement, good though that often is, nor the "class" background of the pupils, but the committment of the staff to good behaviour. That this earns the social respect of families and the economic respect of employers should surprise no-one. When the "bog-standard" comprehensive teaches values and repect as effectively as Church schools, the aspirationally middle class will go to them as well.

John Waldsax, Wimborne, Dorset

Amid all the brouhaha over faith and grammar schools, I see little impassioned debate in the Commons over the two major changes which have undoubtably had a negative impact in schools - league tables and excessive testing.
Or is the point of Commons (and journalistic) 'debate' just to attack the supposedly easy targets of grammar and faith schools, and ignore the rest?

Suzy , Reading,

The majority of parents want their children in 'good' schools where they will get an education that gives them the opportunity to improve their economic, and sometimes social, conditions. The majority of parents perceive state schools to offer an inferior education to private or faith schools, or the many alternatives to state schools. So is it any surprise to anyone that parents will use any means at their disposal to get their children into a school they believe offers the better opportunities? This Labour government has manifestly failed, given 10 years and billions of taxpayers' money, to bring state schools up to the standard of the private schools. As long as this failure persists, then parents will use whatever means they can to find alternatives. Don't blame the parents. And I find it quite sad when I hear those who defend this Labour government's lamentable performance laying the blame at the door of the last Conservative government. Take education away from government.

clive, surrey,

"They get the best results because they select their intake." Evidence?

Frank Upton, Solihull,

My children attend a C of E school, in a middle class area with no particular qualifying requirements. One of the most unbelievable factors is that the children spend an enormous amount of time learning about Islam & Hinduism in religious studies classes but very little about Christianity. You only have to ask them and they point it out and are quite confused by it.
We all have a choice of where we attend, there has to be differences, life isn't fair and fighting for education is no different to anything else. Unfortunately we live in 'Blair' Britain where we decide as a democratic majority to always allow minorities the right of way. Absolutely absurd,

Tony, Leicester, UK

I see that a Catholic school in Northern Ireland is closing due to attacks on it from Loyalists.

I would love to see all schools becoming non-religious. Kids could integrate at an early age, parents could teach them religion (if they really took their faith seriously) and the region could attain some form of normality in the next 20 years.

The religious parents seem to want to keep the status quo as do the religious leaders.

f g, dublin,

As a parent you simply want a good standard of education for your child and preferably the best but the meddling of succesive governments mean that the difference between one school and another is sometimes vast. This means that given the choice you would do all you could to ensure your child did not go to the worst school.

This is not about faith schools but the fact that local schools have horrendous teaching methods in some places.

Get rid of the bad teachers, reduce government interference and improve local funding to ensure that you are placed in the nearest school and still have a chance of a good education.

Joseph Kellie, Edinburgh, Scotland

Why are Catholic schools "divisive"? Henry VIII was divisive. Ours is an open house.

Kevin, London,

The middle classes will always win on this issue. No matter how many loopholes would-be social engineers plug, they'll batter, bribe, manipulate and game their way to what they want for their children.

Why not end the whole sorry farce and stop trying to make intelligent, articulate, influential people do what they very much don't want to do?

You might as well try to sweep back the ocean with a broom.

S.M. Stirling, Santa Fe, New Mexico

Absolutely Alice. All these faith schools are performing too well. Let's get rid of them.

Pete, Bristol,

Why should i as a taxpayer pay for all you religious people and/or hypocrites to send your children to segregated faith schools? Alice is right: this is a far more important question than grammar schools, raising many similar issues. All the 'poor persecuted middle classes' who have posted comments above are deluded.

Alex P, manchester, uk

The school I attended in Antwerp was noted for its high academic standards. Although secular, twice a week it provided religious or humanist classes. A rabbi came to instruct the Jewish girls, we Roman Catholics had a priest and those from atheist backgrounds attended humanist courses. It was a civilised system that worked supremely well and above all taught tolerance of others' beliefs. That's the problem in Britain today - a lack of tolerance. It's hardly the fault of faith schools if the general education system is so dire. In Belgium the debate of private vs state schools is irrelevant. All schools are universally excellent with children routinely being able to speak several languages at an early age. And yes, even as a Catholic, I certainly did learn about Darwinism and the Spanish Inquisition.

Marie-Louise, Brussels,

Excellent article, identifying the reality of discrimination on our doorstep. I write as a minister of a Methodist Church where children in our Sunday School have been refused entry to the local Church of England School simply because they did not attend the Anglican Church.

By the way, Methodist Schools DO NOT discriminate in this way.

Terry, Lytham St. Annes, UK

How about the atheists practise what they preach and exercise tolerance towards those who want to have children brought up in a certain ethos. And if parents wish to compromise their non-belief to get their children into a faith school that is their choice, though perhaps they should reflect on what is that has historically differentiated the school from worse schools, and then question whether there is something behind the faith rather than adamantly shut off their minds to the possibility; in the interests of being "open-minded". Just as I sometimes doubt my belief, surely others must sometimes doubt their unbelief?

Toby , London,

Good article. I refused to send my children to a Jewish school 'cos it was so elitest. I just wanted them to be happy and mix with everyone - so I sent them to the local schools. I can't tell you comments I got from so called friends. I did get the last laugh when my son got to Oxford from our local comp!

I reminded them that in the Diary of Ann Frank, the Nazis segregated the school children to alienate the Jewish children. Faith schools have perpetuated divisions in Northern Ireland too.

Faith schools do have an advantage over secular schools - better funding. State schools do have a moral code that embraces everyone - it's called being a good person.

Marrianne Arnold, Manchester,

Excuse me Pauline Brown (and Alice Miles) but is there anything wrong with lying, as necessary, to get ones kids into whichever school offers the best education going?

If a supermarket imposed a religious (or residential) test for access to the best quality groceries , there would be no shame in telling a lie to evade this. No-one, is obliged to volunteer to be excluded from something. And what is a school but a supermarket where instead of groceries you buy academic qualifications?

In 18C England, all officeholders had to take Communion in the CofE. This was meant to exclude Nonconformists form public life. So what did they do? They took the Sacrament , after each election, before being sworn in - and then went back to their Dissenting Chapel, never seeing the inside of an Anglican Church until the next election. This was called "Occasional Conformity", but might equally well have been labelled "common sense", a quality with which today's parents are clearly well endowed.

Michael W Stone, BA FBIS, Peterborough, Cambs

Having taught in a C of E school, I can honestly say that our admissions policy was fair, with our pupils being drawn from our local area. In a surburban, middle-class, professional area, we had one of the highest number of minority ethnic pupils in the city, drawn from all faiths and none. The school is over-subscribed, with parents wanting their children to attend partly because of the caring, family atmosphere, partly because of the Christian ethos and partly because it is one of the best schools in the city.

Furthermore, we taught Judaism, Buddhism, Islam and Hinduism alongside Christianity and actively encouraged children from those faiths to share their viewpoints and their beliefs with the other children, in order to ensure that all the children understood the faith positions of others. It's good practice! We were certainly not guilty of 'filling their heads with ridiculous partisan fantasies'.

Vicky, Hampshire,

This is rubbish! I'm a Governor of a voluntary aided Church of England primary school and have first hand experience of the pains that are taken by the Admissions committee with every application. If the Church is maintaining a school financially, why shouldn't priority be given to members of the Church community? Quote - "How many four-year-olds even know if they are Christian?" - well, how many four-year-olds choose to go to school or even have inoculation jabs? Of course, they don't, their parents make the decision for them. It's called parental responsibility.

This article suggests that faith schools select on ability or parent profession - since when have these been criteria for attending the Church of England? A significant number of children in my school are not C of E, but want to attend the school because of its sound ethos and moral grounding in an inclusive faith. Perhaps this is why faith schools tend to provide a better education to children.

Tony Price, St Albans, UK

I can only assume Alice Miles is being intentionally provocative - perhaps she's hoping to win a weekly columnists' sweepstake for number of comments attracted by any one piece. Parents have a duty to do their best for their children, no matter which class they hail from; staying within the law wherever possible is the only proviso I would add. This is a tired debate.

Sarah Mojab, London, UK

Moved ouse to get my children into a C of E school, guilty. Why, after riding on the trains in London with "pupils" of other schools and watching the utter lack of respect in anything/anyone my mind was made up. I am a Christian and proud to be one but would have put my children in any school if knew they would be disciplined and educated ina way that is moral and yes, christian but alas! Let us face it, faith schools are doing well because of their faith period! Bringing children up to know that there is a God and that He wants us tot love our neighbours as ourselves does a lot just see the results as they speak for themselves.

Chinwe, London,

Racial segregation also applies to CofE schools. The vast majority of Britain's black christians are not Anglicans and as a result their children are disadvantaged in access to schools that have an ethos they may particularly support. Instead, places go to the children of white middle class parents who consider religon to be so irrelevant that it doesn't matter where they go on a Sunday morning for a year or two if it gets their child into a good school.

Susan, London,

My child attends a Catholic school and this would be the only really satisfactory means of education for our family as our faith is an integral part of our lives and its values the only basis by which anything of value can be taught in our opinion.

I would imagine that the depth of hypocrisy would have to be pretty great for an unbelieving parent to be happy with the profoundly faith-based education provided at such a school. Also in my experience of two such schools the intake of children is extremely diverse with children of wide ranging ethnicities from all over the world - noone is excluded - i think you'll find this is the meaning of the word "Catholic" - a great strength of our faith and a value that I am proud for my son to experience.

It would be a tragedy if these schools were razed down to the lowest common denominator of apathetic atheism and liberal laissez-faire morality.

Ada , guildford, surrey

I wanted a school for my children that thought there was more to life than churning out capitalist workers, grinding down their spirit and humanity. A school which shared the moral ethos I had, which was multi-cultural (in my mainly white anglo saxon town - Polish, Phillipine, Spanish, African), which found time to think about things other than league tables and achievement quotas. That, as well as considering the innate goodness of ours and other religions, celebrated Christmas and Eatser in a way that i remembered from my own childhood. I school that continued the line of tradition that i beling to. That school was Catholic. A good school, run by good people with the best interests of the children at heart. What is wrong with wanting that for your child? And why, if you're not Catholic or not willing to embrace the good things about that religion, would you want to even consider sending your child to that school. Envy and rampant secularism are what are being nakedly displayed here.

Mike , colchester,

Britain is not a secular state as Doug says. It never has been. Church and state have always been joined together from the top - the monarchy - to the bottom - parish councils and everything in between including Parliament, the Universities, Labour Party and Trade Unions. Where they are not one finds spiritual and moral emptiness such as at state schools and council estates. It would be interesting to find out the proportion of prison inmates that went to state schools comapred to church schools.

William, Northwood,

Alice,

You seem to have bunged two different rants into one article, and your confusion is reflected in many of your correspondents' letters.

Are you against faith schools? (rant 1); and,
Are you against selection criteria being established for school intake? (rant 2)

Fuzzy thinking isn't normally considered a good journalistic trait.

Pat O'Donnell, Ascot,

It's really splendidly generous of the Christians commenting on this topic to go so much out of their way to prove that Professor Dawkins' view of them is precisely correct.

Steven, Hove,

As usual the behaviour of Londoners is assumed to be normal. It isn't. Most people in Britain live outside London and the Machiavellian instincts and behaviour attributed to (London) parents are not common outside the capital. This rant about Faith schools could easily be about any other educational issue in London.

Please don't tar the rest of the country with your biased and narrow minded brush.

Kate, Southampton,

Instead of attacking the good schools, why not for once attack the bad schools? Also, you should declare your own interest - what was your school and to which would you send your children?

Peter, London,

More ill informed rubbish,. No where does Alice Mills deal wth the fact that faith schools consistently acheive the best results in the country, it is nothing to do with being selctive, or having middle class parents, it's to do with the discipline , boundaries, and respect for authourity that faith schools engander, something that non faith schools are sadly lacking. Instead of learning from faith schools , those of the non faith persuasion want to get rid of them, , if alice Mills and her ilk dislike faith schools so much- they don't shave to send ytheir children there- but stop tarring parents who do as liars and hypocrites.

Uche George, Plaistow, England

The CofE school across the road doesn't admit non-believers. The Catholic school further up the road does the same. The CofE high school only takes on 15% of non-believers, and ONLY when they have exceptional language skills (goodness knows why, they'll happily allow illiterate Christians to join).

Why is this kind of discrimination allowed? Around here, if you're a non-believer, you can't get into a decent school.

S., Lancaster,

What makes me sick is that parents like me, who stick to their principles and refuse to pretend hypocritically to be religious to get their children into faith schools, are looked at as if we're mad, or as if we couldn't possibly love our children as much as they love their darling little Jocastas and Jakes. Claiming the moral high ground while blatantly lying to teachers, ministers and worst of all, their children, while presumably coaching their children to lie as well, about their 'religious' home life and church attendance, is nothing short of contemptible.

Pauline Brown, London,

Education should be about learning, not worshipping gods and practising strange beliefs. I was lucky enough to go to a school which had no religious worship (though obviously it is taught as RE, and hope that when I have children they can also go to a school where they will be able to make up their own minds, as opposed to having religion unquestioningly shoved down their throats.

Hugh, London,

I would be interested to know exactly what percentage of faith schools are C of E.
My C of E school dropped religious instruction at the age of 13 years of age and even then it was only one half our lesson per week. Which meant that almost all of us, myself included became enlightened Atheists. (hardly a faith school)
You say that faith schools generally have a better standard of education.
Yet catholic schools don’t teach evolution, these children won’t of heard of Darwin, the Span-ish inquisition, the list is long, my ex-girlfriend was catholic, so I know.
These faith schools don’t teach education they teach indoctrination