Perhaps we could have our children pledge allegiance to a national motto. So thick and fast and inchoate tumble the ideas about Britishness from the Government that the ridiculous no longer seems impossible. It is easy to poke fun - too easy, perhaps. For the very debate about what it means to be a British citizen, long a particular passion of Gordon Brown, brutally illustrates the ever-decreasing circle that new Labour has become.
The idea of a national motto (or “national statement of British values”, as they insist we call it) has already attracted derision on a glorious scale - and there's nothing more British than the refusal to be defined. Times readers chose as their national motto: No motto please, we're British.
Undaunted, here comes the Government with another one: a review of citizenship, which suggests that schoolchildren be asked to swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen. A what? Yup. Oath of allegiance to the Queen. It would be hard to think of something more profoundly undemocratic, less aligned to Mr Brown's supposed belief in meritocracy and enabling all children to achieve their full potential.
Today you will hear the Chancellor profess the Government's continuing commitment to the abolition of child poverty, encapsulating a view of Britain in which the State tweaks the odds and the tax credit system to iron out inherited inequalities.
You do not need to ask how this vision of Britain can sit easily alongside a proposal to ask kids to pledge allegiance to the Queen before leaving school: it cannot. The one looks up towards an equal society, everyone rewarded according to merit and not the lottery of birth; the other bends its knee in obeisance to inherited privilege and an undemocratic social and political system. In Mr Brown's view of the world, as I thought I understood it, an oath of allegiance from children to the Queen ought to be anathema, grotesque, off the scale, not even worth considering.
Why, then, could No 10 not dismiss it out of hand yesterday? Asked repeatedly at the morning briefing with journalists whether the Prime Minister supported the proposal, his spokesman hedged his bets. Mr Brown welcomed the publication of the report; he thinks the themes are important; he hopes it will launch a debate; he is very interested in the theme of Britishness. []But no view as to the suitability of the oath. It is baffling in the extreme. Does this Prime Minister believe in nothing, then?
A number of things need to be unpicked here. First, to give him due credit, the report from the former Attorney-General Lord Goldsmith contains much more than the oath of allegiance. (Read it at www.justice. gov.uk/reviews/citizenship.htm). That, as he was at pains to emphasise on the Today programme yesterday, is but “a possibility that's raised”.
The oath forms a tiny part of a detailed report, written in the style of the lawyer that Lord Goldsmith is, about what British citizenship means, what it ought to mean and how to strengthen it. It's hard to unite the country in a sense of shared purpose around lines such as, at random, Chapter 4, Part 1, 4: “As seen in Chapter 2, a discernible trend in the history of citizenship in the UK was the loss of equivalence between citizenship and the right of abode.”
It is a serious debate that Mr Brown is keen to foster about changing the categories of British citizenship, and defining what they mean. No doubt he would prefer it not to be hijacked by catcalls over an oath of allegiance or national motto.
But it is in him that the central problem resides: the Prime Minister himself is uncertain what Britishness is, while insisting we should all be wedded to the concept. No wonder there is a problem over what a motto, or an oath of allegiance, should contain.
Britain is a set of laws and ancient institutions - monarchy, Parliament, statutes, arguably today EU law as well. An oath of allegiance naturally tends towards these.
It wasn't supposed to be like this. In its younger and bolder days, new Labour used to argue that the traditional version of Britain is outdated. When Labour leaders began debating Britishness in the 1990s, they argued that the institutions in which a sense of Britain is now vested, or should be vested, are those such as the NHS or even the BBC (no coincidence that these are also traditionally viewed as “Labour” institutions), allied with values of civic participation, all embodying notions of fairness, equality and modernity absent in the traditional institutions.
Gordon Brown himself wrote at length about Britishness in The Times in January 2000: “The strong British sense of fair play and duty, together embodied in the ideal of a vibrant civic society, is best expressed today in a uniquely British institution - the institution that for the British people best reflects their Britishness - our National Health Service.”
An oath of allegiance to the NHS? Ah, those were the days. They really thought they could do it; change the very notion of what it meant to be British. Today, ten years on, they hesitatingly propose an oath of allegiance to the Queen. Could there be a more perfect illustration of the vanquished hopes and aspirations of new Labour? Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair.
Ah, but I see there is to be a national day as well, “introduced to coincide with the Olympics and Diamond Jubilee - which would provide an annual focus for our national narrative”. A narrative, a national day, glorifying the monarchy and sport? Yuck. I think I might settle for a national motto after all.
Better than Orwell''s 1984, Huxley's Brave New World
" A gramme is better than a damn."
eugene, heidelberg, germany
Have we really become so insignificant that we want to scratch around for a few words to pretend we're not?
Chris, York, England
Isn't this just about Gordon wanting the English to see him , and all his Scottish ministers as British, and not Scottish ?
Incase that undermines him at the next election ?
Why doesnt he go back where he came from and give the rest of us a break from his never ending self indulgent incoherent babble.
Kevin, Portsmouth,
MaxC, 'four legs good, two legs bad' was from Orwell's Animal Farm, not 1984.
Aufie, Dundee, UK
The news from New Labour gets more insane every day. And if state interference gets any worse, then the appropriate 'motto' from 1984, must surely be "Four legs good, two legs bad".
MaxC, London,
Spot the mistake, there. My excuse: the country is descending into '1984', and Gordon's cabinet has a distinct 'Animal Farm' vibe about it (see private Eye). It's all become one horror scenario.
MaxC, London,
We are not citizens. We are a free people. The State draws its powers and obligations from us, not vice versa.
Frank Upton, Solihull,
NuLab and the Left have been trying so hard to get rid of our history and our values. The Queen is a symbol of the Nation. The nation is all of us. By pledging allegiance we are pledging to live in a Democracy with a Constitutional Monarch. An idea worth at least as much as "accepting" some new piece of software or a banks "terms". It is worthwhile to wish to subscribe to something greater than oneself.,to promise to support it.
Remove the Monarchy and we cut off from our history from which we can therefore no longer learn. Remove ideas of duty, and service, and unselfishness ,and we are all poorer. A "Republic" would be a souless more selfish place. Didn't Mao do this in China? Rewrite history, kill off morality,
and any ability to think.
Holly, Luton, UK
I think it's hypocritical of Brown and his pals to talk about allegiance to the state, when he and the liberal elite he represents have spent the last thirty years deconstructing and subverting the very idea of national identity, except as something to be deeply ashamed of. It's hardly surprising they fail to be convincing advocates for 'Britishness', for example, when they allow the Scots and Welsh to opt out without considering any sort of self-determination for the English.
Re immigration, Jem's point - 'we've always been the stopping point and melting pot for european hordes - viking, norman, roman' glosses over the fact that each new arrival caused civil war, pillage and rape on a grand scale. They didn't set up focus groups to elaborate diversity strategies etc.
Stephen Fox, Oxford,
Needless to say, I was shocked and dismayed to discover that after so many years of glorious empire, the empire, or what's left of it, is without a motto. With all the eloquence of English, Scottish and Welsh literature; despite the poetry of Shelly, the philosophical acumen of Hume, the national pride of Churchill, not to mention the many Irish writers who have contributed to the improvement of the English language, to be without something as essential as a national motto is nothing less than disgraceful. It's no wonder that devolution has proceeded so rapidly, with no slogan to bind the empire together. I would like to suggest that you borrow one from the U.S. "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" isn't currently in use, and its origins are in Locke anyhow, so it's practically yours.
Michael T. Gibbons, Lutz, FL, USA
Michael T. Gibbons, Lutz, Florida, USA
In Califorina, we have a motto...
"In God we trust. All others pay cash."
Randell Young, San Clemente, CA
What if you refuse to do so??
Dave Madley, Alicante, Spain
To my mind this quest for a national motto is remeniscent of companies that produce pretentious "Mission Statements" or indulge in expensive rebranding exercises - it's often a warning sign of poor managers who are trying to paper over the cracks.
Chris K, Cheltenham, UK
was it realy necessary for the Prime Minister to appear on the national news ,because some one had run onto the runway at Heathrow,and requiring the detonation of his sandwich bag,
could not Mr Brown have left such trivia to a security chief of ministerial underling.this government is so embarassing,and lacking in gravitas.
C.E.Wreathall, Bury St.Edmundas, UK
British motto? Milk-toast.
Bill, St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
Smokescreen Alert !!!
While, otherwise, sensible citizens of the UK are squandering their rage with petty squabbles over this non-starter of a Gov't proposal, they are distracted from the real issues facing the country.
Was this New Labour's true reason for commissioning this report?
Robby, Mons,
Maybe what Gordon Brown is really after is a compulsory Oath of Allegiance to HIM...and to the Labour Party.
Sieg Heil!
Garth Strong, San Diego, USA
There was a Punch cartoon many years ago with a huge motto round the emblems of a backwater Ruritanian state which translated as We may be tiny and no use in the world but by Jove we're good at Latin.
John Ledbury, Kings Lynn, England
One of the good things about the verses of the national anthem people actually know and sing is that they are not nationalistic unlike Deutschland Uber Alles and the bloodthirsty French song. Who can possibly object to praying that God will guide and save the ruler of our country apart from atheists and republicans both of whom are in a tiny minority - why should the tail wag the dog?
william Haines, Northwood,
your reaction to an oath of allegiance to the queen depends on the weight of the chip on your shoulder. if, for example, you are a scot and see the queen representing english dominance of your country, you will not respect it. if you see the queen merely as representing the things that you consider in your ironic but fair mind to be british values, then it's less of a problem. it's a connection to a set of ideals.
the rage against immigration and multiculturalism seems to ignore our history. we've always been the stopping point and melting pot for european hordes - viking, norman, roman. we might not have been invaded for a thousand years, but english culture at least is derivative rather than indigenous. the various imported cultures have been absorbed, adopted and adapted in a unique form that everyone used to appreciate when they weren't particularly fussed about it.
navel-gazing by gordon's idiots ignores the damage they have done over ten years. give us an election!
jem, london, uk
We have been swearing our allegiance to the Crown for hundreds of years, so it's a little unfair to blame that on the Americans, as much as we would like to pin it on the warmongering idiots who are doing their best to mess up the planet.
Chris, Norfolk, UK
Here's an idea:
"What say the reeds of Runnymede?"
From a rather relevant poem by Kipling.
Steve Schaper, Rochester, Minnesota
What's your problem? Your national anthem says it, your coins say it; why can't you?
You pledge your allegiance to the terms and conditions of a plethora of services: banks, credit card companies, your employer, ISPs, software and insurance companies, clubs, etc, why not your country?
Maybe they've got the kind of statement of allegance wrong, but it should be recognised that the human need for belonging is hard wired, and if the notion of being British cannot find some reasonable definition, then humans will do as they always have, and will create tribes - or packs - to ally with, just like in Year 0 in when the land you live in now had no name.
Australia has the same problem, and top down approaches to the issue have ranged from funny to mad. Democracies aren't good at this, and leadership is required. Does it take a war?
Who are you? If you cannot answer it , you're nothing.
Don, Bungendore, Australia
I was a Scout and had to take the Scout promise including the bit about 'my duty to God and to the Queen', however when I was asked by a district commissioner what I understood this to mean, I explained that I had a duty to God (as a Christian) and that my duty to the Queen (as a republican) was to help her vacate her throne and become a commoner. Needless to say this didn't go down well but since I was in a gathering with a lot of other Scouts, many of whom had the same understanding as I did of our 'duties (although some understood their duty to 'God' as meaningless as there was no God in their view)', I think that he decided not to press the issue. This is how I have always understood my duty to the Queen to be and as a believer in 'Once a Scout, always a Scout' I'm proud to say that I'm still living up to that promise as a 40 something who is actively republican!
Mark, Cardiff,
The UK already has a national motto. Deus et Mon Droit. "God and My Right".
Sue Perkins, Coventry, UK
Britishness is better defined not by what we are but by what we will not tolorate. For example no true Brit, be they Scottish, English, Welsh or Northern Irish would ever bend the knee to Rome or Mecca, or any other foreign entity.
Scott, Kelso, UK
I'm amused at the reponse of so many people to a proposed oath of allegiance to Britain. Others claim there would be discrimination against some faiths if there was an oath of allegiance to The Queen.
What is ludicrous is that within Britain there is a country, England, which doesn't even have a national anthem, merely a durge about a Queen. The Welsh and the Scots long ago rejected any notion that "God Save The Queen" could be any national anthem of theirs. They now sing their own and boo and deride "God Save The Queen".
Why don't the English demand a national anthem dedicated to their nation rather than to an individual ?
Dr. Jimmy, Nottingham, England
Where is Monty Python now that their country truly needs them!
Gary, San Diego, CA, USA
When you think of the really important things this government could have done, such as bringing state education up to a reasonable standard or getting the heck out of Iraq, this is just papering over the cracks. It's a cheap (and nasty) way of getting people to subscribe to something in which they are not stakeholders.
Kathryn, Vienna, Austria
An oath to the Queen would be discriminatory against any non-Anglican person as she is head of the Church of England. She is definitively not my pope.
Michael, Sheffield,
Ok, so you swear your allegiance. Big deal. It's not like you really, really, have to believe it.
And, yes, please dont blame us for this mess. You've brought it on yourselves.
Jerome , Milton, WI, USA
I doubt very much whether a legal minor can even swear a valid oath - quite apart from the bullying/manipulation inherent in such a concept.
Julia Iskandar, London, England
"idiotic, American inspired nonsense" ? what the heck?
please don't bring us into this...
Mark, Knoxville, TN
This government has a sorry record of "modernising" decisions, which most of us can confidently predict will be reversed in due course following failure. That reversal of course is usually disguised as yet another "new initiative", but we're not fooled, just powerless. Until the heavy and politically correct promotion of multi-culturalism resulted in the current mess, there wasn't any agonising over "Britishness". We all knew pretty much what it meant. Now, they're embarking on reversal. No chance - some things are too subtle and complex to be "reversed". Britishness has disappeared into the dustbin of history and God knows what will take its place. thanks, Nulabour.
John, Gerrards Cross, Bucks
I have an idea,why do we not form a network of radio and television stations to present news and current affairs programs on British values and from a British perspective.
Perhaps we could call it the British Broadcasting corporation. O dear,that name is taken already.
We will just have to call it the Brittannic broadcasting corporation.
John W Meadows, San Francisco, California
Yet another example of our leaders looking down the wrong end of the telescope. Planet New Labour is no longer in the same solar system as Planet Britain. Enable society first rather than dictating to us what to do in this micromanagement style that Labour has developed. The vast majority of people want to be left alone to proceed through life in a fair and reasonable manner, providing for themselves and their families within a community of similar minded individuals.
A feeling of citizenship naturally develops.
It cannot be of any value to enforce this from top down.
julian, London,
It works with football teams. Football clubs have players from different backgrounds, colours, religions, cultures..etc
They all pledge to work together as a team, their differences don't come in their way. They all do their best for the team, they all obey their manager. If there are conficts, they friends help out. The best teams are those who train their players to work hard not to be greedy and pass the ball to their mates, if they have a better chance of scoring. Basically, players are trained to work together.
Can you see the parallels?. Children should all be trained to be part of the same team, they should all be trained at an earlier age to work together as one people for one goal. Their manager may be the Queen/Government officials, their team is called UK. Its a win win win. Lets win the biggest world cup in history.
Mohammed, London, UK
Nobody should panic. After all, it will take two years to form the committee, another five to actually get some ideas down on paper, and another seven to vote for the winning pledge, amid accusations of cheating and bribery. By that time there'll be a whole nuther government and more ridiculous ideas. Just nod and keep smiling!
Toni S Hargis, expat, Chicago, USA
How about this for a national motto:
"I came, I saw, I stayed indoors."
Who are these 'British' people? They can carry on worrying about their identity. I just live here.
Tom Halligan, Liverpool,
Is the only argument against some form of patriotism/identity building activity is that its "un-British"? Just because we are not used to it, it must be dreadful: sounds a little like the voices of those who recoiled at the suggestion that the earth is round some centuries ago.
Leah, Reading, UK
"But it is in him that the central problem resides: the Prime Minister himself is uncertain what Britishness is, while insisting we should all be wedded to the concept."
To ask children to take an ill-defined oath, which they cannot understand, is a fool's errand. Only a politician can bring zeal to such foolishness. Government allowed to suffer such fools usually breeds new ones that would want to hold them to it.
Besides, being British, like anything else is in the doing. Time spent defining.it makes it something less.
Fred Coleman, Riverside, Ca., USA
I'm English not British. It's time the UK was dissolved and we each went our seperate ways. The British should be something we read about in the history books.
If people want to settle in England and take up English citizenship, they should swear allegiance to England and the Queen of England!
Independence for England.
Derek, Southampton, England
1) The Queen is our head of state. The alternative is a president (anyone for Mrs Thatcher or Tony Blair?). A monarchy does not prevent us from being a democracy.
2) It isn't British to have an oath of allegiance - but this government, having done its best to destroy any sense of English nationhood (it supports nationhood, rightly, for the Scots, Welsh & Irish) is terrified of a rising English nationalism. So it tries to persuade the English they are merely 'white British' (as in the 2001 census).
3) Let the government accept that the English are an ancient & proud nation (& let the English learn to distinguish between England/English & Britain/British - which many do not). Then we could live peaceably together, with only an occasional Bannockburn or Flodden Field - on the rugby field.
Dave, Wrexham,
Idiotic, American inspired nonsense.
Paul McCloskey, London, UK
"The strong British sense of fair play and duty"
Lots of our fellow citizens don't have either of these. Are they not British? Can we deport them
Jamie Gilmour, Botlon, UK
I continue to be amazed how unpatriotic & short sighted this reporter & other commentators are.
Dont they realise that the Asian, black & Polish invasion of immigrants is a threat to the British culture that attracts immigrants. Unless we protect historical British values we will no longer be an attractive society to immigrants or existing UK residents. Already many middle class Britons move to rural France & Australia because they want to live in a safe, mainly white, mainly christian community which recognises that it needs to protect its culture.
Multi- cultural societies with no core values or identity are bad places to live in, because there is nothing common to belong to!
Tim, Warwick, UK
"Citizenship: a British farce.." No. It is a foreign notion!
S. Barraclough, Huddersfield, W. Yorkshire
You are right that there is no need for an oath of allegiance to anyone or anything. That said, I profoundly disagree with your interpretation of an oath of allegiance to the Queen. Like so many people nowadays, you do not seem to understand the British constitution. The Queen is a living representative of the nation, and an oath of allegiance to her symbolizes allegiance to the nation - a far more abstract idea, and harder to comprehend. It is by no means an oath of allegiance to her as an individual human being. Americans swear allegiance to the flag, which may seem odd to us, but which symbolizes exactly the same thing.
Tom Welsh, Basingstoke,
This fatuous ' Oath' is sheep-dip indoctrination. Britishness is a racial quality not a legalistic definition. And remember the Shakespearian aside 'My words fly up....my thoughts remain below' .
F Kimbal Johnson, Louth,Lincs, uk
Hell will freeze over before I would utter an archaic throwback like a pledge of allegiance. What next, the return of crucifixion.
Kristian Thompson, Dundee, UK
Our Supreme Leader keeps talking about citizenship. We are not citizens (comrades), we are subjects. Any oath should be to the crown. Unfortunately I can see Brown deciding that an oath of loyalty to the PM is the best solution.
Emerson, Chester,
So in a few years' time schoolkids will have to swear allegiance to Prince , sorry , King , Charles?
Someone is having a laugh.
By the way - I'm English not British. I'd rather pledge my loyalty to my country - not to some medieval / feudal idea of inherited power.
Bob, Essex, England
Is it not the case that we have too much government. Presumably the report was funded by taxpayers money to give employment to an ex minister. I may be wrong, it could be that the former Attorney General has sufficient pension to produce the report out of altruism. Will not one of the parties pledge to halve the quango's and peripheral government agencies and let us live our own lives. The money saved could reduce the odd tax here and there or be put to better use.
S R Baldwin, Rochford, England
To settle it once and for all,
Why don't we just wait for another European directive to tell us what we must do - before we decide what to do? They have told us what to do for many years.
alan, Cardiff, wales
Why does anyone take any notice of what Lord Goldsmith says anyway? Remember his famous advice on Iraq? Although I can quite believe that Gordon Brown wants us all out in the park, wearing red stars on our boiler suits, singing The Red Flag and exercising every morning before going off to our state-controlled workplace.
Ann Keith, Cambridge, uk
Bring back the Test Acts. No Popery!
Tom, Huddersfield, u
If you think swearing allegiance to the Queen is silly, consider this. Until recently new citizens of Australia had to do the same! I have an ex-english friend who tells me that the only time he has been asked to proclaim loyalty to Her Majesty was when he became a naturalized Australian. He also tells me he mumbled during that bit but I promised not to dob him in.
But what is this antipathy to a national day? We have Australia Day and everyone loves it. If you don't believe me visit Sydney on any 26th January and join the party.
James , Canberra, Australia.
I find the idea of forcing impressionable children to make an oath which they do not fully understand a little disturbing. An oath is a solemn and important choice which an individual should make and not retract, such as in the Armed Forces. How can we consider asking 5 year olds to make a political decision such as this and still keep the concepts of honesty and freedom of speech alive? People can have their own views - many people oppose the monarchy. This seems a strange, totalitarian way of enforcing rule over citizens, at best brainwashing young children and at worst pushing young peopel to rebel against an emblem of britishness - our sovereign.
rose, UK,
Why not go the whole hog and swear allegiance to our 'Dear Leader' who art in Downing Street, Gordon be his name! And the other 'Ex-Dear Leader' Tony was his name, He art in Yale'!...becoming very stale!!
B Clarke, Chelmsford, Essex UK
Would we be having this debate on 'Britishness' if our history and cultural heritage were taught properly in our schools?
Keith, London,
Ah yes, Ah yes, I remember the standing and giving the cub and scouts promise, and standing for the National Anthem at the end of cinema performances. How times have changed, or am I just becoming a grumpy old man?
John M Baker, Sutton in Ashfield, UK
The socialist marxist governments of Blair, Brown, New Labour have systematically attempted to destroy traditional culture and identity and at the same time impose a state sponsored identity by revising the history of Britain in schools and elsewhere, by imposing a failed multiculturism and unrestrained immigration, by institutionalising political correctness which stops the majority expressing their views and by institutionalising statist symbols like this.
I've recently reread Big Brother. Its looks very much as if Brown and previous nu labs movers have been using it as the real and surreptitious manifesto
David Cartright, Birmingham,
>>>
What about the 30 to 40 per cent of the population who do not want the Windsors as Heads of State, and who would prefer a Republic
>>>
The country is overcrowded so throw them out, if they want a republc so much let them go and live in one. We tried a republic beforehand, and asked for a monarch back ten years later. The historical parallels are fascinatingly close, a lesson probably lost on NuLabour with its collective ignorance of history.
Andrew Fanner, Cowplain, UK
I can just see the Chavs finding their way into the last night of the proms! now thats what I call modern Britain (full of contridictions)
John Smith, Leeds, UK
Politicians need to get their own house in order. They have sworn an oath to uphold values of integrity, honesty and true representation. Need I say more.
JParfitt, Newport, Wales
How people see citizenship and how they choose to express it is, in a free country, their own business. The government's business is to run the country effectively. That is what they are elected and paid to do. Why won't they do it ? Not content with endlessly telling us how to run our lives, they now want to tell us what to think.
Richard Briscoe, Amersham, England
well our very clever politicians just have to find something,a new idea everyday no matter how stupid it may sound.do they really and honestly think by forcing people to go through this silly ritual they become better british citizens?what a joke.
but i really would question our politicians' loyalty to this country!!!!they have sold this country without taking the oath.!!!!well i guess their oath was to the devil.
cash for questions,cash for peerage,iraq war,afghanistan war,nhs,schools,crime just to name a few.are these shear negligence and incompetence or lack of interest in the future of this country?
ebbi britt, vlaencia,
Whilst the England rugby and Soccer teams continue to insult Scotland, Wales and N Ireland. by claiming the British National Anthem as their own then there is no chance of such an oath of allegiance being accepted. The England Commonwealth Games team do not insult the rest of the UK so why should we put up with the misuse by the no hopers of England Rugby and Football.
Dave, St Amand,
Carry on like this, please, Mr Brown. The more you push the more likely it will be that we slip into civil war and revolution. And if that's what it takes to rid our country of this chippy, virulent scourge of New Labour then... bring it on! We can't go on hurtling towards this nightmare of a totalitarian future. you only have to listen to Gordon Brown to understand that the man is psychologically flawed and that he does not have an ounce of compassion in him. He's a dictator surrounded by a bunch of sixth-form puppets. Britain deserves so much better.
MarkS, Bath, England
Does this Prime Minister believe in nothing, then?
Like all politicians this Prime Minister believes in "Office" no matter what the price may be.
paul, london,
Gordon Brown and New Labour believe in anything that will get them votes. The fact that the things they need to believe in as a result of this are inconsistent and illogcial when viewed as a whole is a natural result of their value free policy of simply remaining in power.
Simple, really.
Toby, Sydney,
Then oath of allegiance was sung last night on the terraces of an Italian football ground by the Scousers. Proud of you guys!
Let's leave it at that.
John from Manchester, Birmingham, UK
An oath of allegiance to the NHS?
Which one: the Scottish NHS; the Welsh NHS; the Northern Irish NHS, or; the NHS which should properly be called the English NHS?
The reason Gordon Brown has picked on the Queen is because she's the only British thing left that hasn't been destroyed or woefully diminished by New Labour.
Gareth Young, Lewes, England
If we're going to pledge allegiance, why not to something which really embodies the best traditions of Britishness, of fair play and equality before the law - Magna Carta?
Oops, darn, I forgot - it's been repealled.
Richard, Horley,
I repeat in case you missed it the first time
'No motto please, we're British.'
This applies equally to oaths of allegiance
For goodness sake, could we keep our eye on the ball please - the economy for starters ? Just a thought ..
Tony, Cardiff,
The British government is entirely sovereign as far as the Monarchy is concerned and has been since before the time of Queen Victoria. The Monarch's role is limited to "advising and warning" . A Prime Minister can listen politely then do the opposite. We in reality are citizens not subjects. The Queen is the Head of State - a role symbolising Britain's past, present and future. That same symbol could be a flag as in the USA. In a sense the symbol itself is irrelevant - what it symbolises of supreme importance. Given the immense contribution of the 3 million (now) Commonweath troops in WW2 - volunteers all - their allegiance of them was of course a given. Sixty years on indifference, resentment and even some hostility has (been allowed to ) is taught in schools.
Bob T, London, UK
What incredibly muddled thinking this article represents - almost as muddled as Brown's. It's evident that the Labour Party doesn't understand what is meant to be British. I hate to say this but as a British son of Scotland I suggest that the English also have a hard time understanding what it means to be British. This is largely because they don't have the same sense of national pride as we do. Most English take it for granted while in the other Kingdoms a number of us have constantly to restate that we believe in the United Kingdom with the Queen as a living symbol of our union.
Groups like the Orange Order have been formed specifically to promote our Britishness and many, many people in the other Kingdoms regularly pledge allegiance to the Queen. It's the English and their inability to differentiate between what it means to be English and what it means to be British that lies at the heart of the problem. And you, Alice, with your muddled article have just proven the point.
Alan Boyd, Glasgow,
Our national narrative is like the narrative in a Jane Austen novel; there is no narrative. Even so the narrative that isn't there is rich in relationships, inferences and expectations, which nobody articulates, but everybody recognises. And its dominant feature is a rich sense of irony. People who deal in 'shame' and 'honour' and (political or religious) 'identity' cannot be a part of this thing that isn't there, so are easy to spot. How come you don't know this you daft politicians?
Jeff M, Dubai, UAE
Never in a month of a million Sundays will any member of my family have anything to do with this latest socialist obscenity. This is nothing more than propaganda in its purest form and, having seen almost identical hand-on-heart, teary-eyed pledges in the execrable USofA and China, surely the English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish are too English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish to allow such a nonsense to become reality?
Aren't we?
Ian A, Harpenden, ENGLAND
I'm failing to really see the problem with trying to regain a little patriotism in our multi cultural country now. I think the story about the service men who get insults, rather than praise it just proof towards this. We're losing our national identity, and part of that identity is our monarchy, if you don't like it, then maybe you could consider moving, irrespective of how many generations 'put up' with it before you...
Gloria, Taunton,
Just a small correction.I believe it was the Americans that chose not to be British.Wasn't there a war oover this?
ron, toronto,
What about the 30 to 40 per cent of the population who do not want the Windsors as Heads of State, and who would prefer a Republic?
Neil, Gloucestershire, England
In japan, some teachers have been forced to resign because they refused to sing the national anthem (unchanged since before WWII) which they do not agree with. Is this where we are heading in Britain. If I refuse to say the oath or sing the anthem will I be socially outcast, or worse, cast out of my job?
I love my country and support the monarchy but that is my choice and there is no way I would have my children forced to pledge allegiance to something which they are too young to even understand. They do that in America and look where it has got them!
K. Brecknell, Worcester, UK,
I hereby promise to attend the last night of the proms !
William, Soton, Gordons Town
Many in the UK have already made their own pledges of allegiance to their family. friends and self, Nulabour have created a disease they have no hope of curing.
wayne, huntingdon, cambridgeshire
I thought the Plastic Policemen (CSOs) swore an Oath to The Home Secretary and not The Crown ? Shouldn't we simply profess our love of The Labour Party as "the political wing of the British People".....as they did in 1997 Manifesto ?
Surely we could have "One Party, One Country, One Will"
ToMTom, Leeds, England
I wish they would just leave us alone.
Darren Howell, LONDON,
The Queen is just a foil here. It is really an oath of allegiance to the MultCult that our masters require.
But the MultiCult is ethnic suicide for native Britons, and to survive we have, in the final analysis, to undo it, and take back our ancestral lands to ourselves.
On Britishness, it is a political anachronism. The Brownite/Blairite conseption of it is values-based precisely because, as it is all over the Western world, the political class is at war with the bonds between native Europeans and their homelands. The political class, left and right, is irredeemably internationalist. It is contemptuous of national fealty among the European peoples, and sees its own survival in crushing that. This is why it launched itself on a crash programme of Third World population transfer after the last war.
We must resist. We must cleave to our Englishness, Scottishness, Welshness. Ethnicity is the basis on which we must express our belonging. The civics are a path to suicide.
Guessedworker, Lewes, Sussex
I think some form of promoting national pride is a good idea. But not an oath of allegiance to the Queen (or god forbid King Charles III). It is time to rethink national identity away from that awful God Save the Queen anthem and move it more towards the landscape and character of the British people...
Lewis J, Perth, AUS
Curious. Gordon Brown suggests pledging allegiance to a tourist attraction. You had better do it quickly, or you will be kneeling to King Chuck. Hmmm - maybe it would just be better to line up and surrender to Brussels.
David, Covington, USA / Kentucky
A British national day introduced to coincide with the Olympics! How stupid is this - the Olympics was a festival that belonged to ancient Greece, and then last century became an international sporting event. Neither has anything to do with Britain. Linking Britain to the Olympics is as muddled and silly as it gets.
Christopher H, Canberra, Australia
I hereby offer you Brits the use of the United States Pledge of Allegiance. Naturally, you will wish to change the "republic" part. And you will have to do something about your overweaning government for the "liberty and justice for all" part to apply. Perhaps the additional offer of our federal system of government might help with that.
Best regards from Music City,
Robert Jones, Nashville, Tennessee
You might think swearing an oath of allegiance to the Queen is an un-British thing to do, undemocratic. I believe it is that sort of cynicism that has led to the state of the country today. Hark back to the days when the National Anthem was played at the cinema and theatre, when congregation prayed for the good health of the Queen and the Royal family, National Service. Even cub scouts and girl guides did their dib-dib-dib and promised to do their duty before a poirtrait of the Queen. And what was the result? I strong national identity. So strong infact that arrogance, possibly, took over.
Whilst it might not be desirable to replicate all that in the 21st century, but is an oath of allegiance to the Head of State such an anathema?
T. C. H. Yang, London,
Absolutely agree with William Haines, Northwood who said:
"...it should be a legal requirement for Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and others to pray for the Queen as a part of their worship service. That is a British way to do it. As to schools, every school should have a portrait of the Queen in a prominent place. That's all that is necessary - just reverse some of the liberal-socialist vandalism from the 60s and 70s."
A Weit, Paris, , France
This farcical Government is dying by the week; expect more bans and ceremonies before it is put out to grass.
Michael Rigby, Blackburn,
I think in 1959 when I was commissioned in the Royal Artillery I swore an oath of allegiance to the Queen. I have never been sure what I promised, but in the subsequent 50 years I am not entirely satisfied that the Queen has kept her part of the bargain - or perhaps as a subject I will be held to my word irrespective of what Her Majesty's government has decided. I have the feeling that the British government has not kept it part of the bargain and in that resides the problem of what being British really means. Too many of us are now unsure of whether the British government really want us any more, so we are leaving in large numbers!
Brian Lewis, Marina, Philippines
The media have taken the collective view that Goldsmith has taken leave of his senses. And it's so easy to lampoon the notion of an oath of allegiance as in articles such as this. Reflect that this country helped you into the world, educated you, provided you with shelter, services, policing and health care, and allowed you the right to express yourself on blogs such as this. The country may be failing because of kakistocracy and you may swing to the right or left politically, but at least there is still food in the shops and the lights still work (just). There are so many things taken for granted compared to the Third World. Since this country has nurtured you, an allegiance to the flag symbolizing Britain is not too much to ask. It should done along American lines starting at school where a sense of belonging needs to be instilled at an early age. Whatever their background or creed, Americans identify with America, not with their countries of origin - and that's what's required here.
Dwight Vandryver, Scholar Green, Cheshire, UK
A recent survey showed that a third of the population of my age (60) are so disenchanted at the way our taxes are swallowed up by the grossly overpaid and totally incompetent elite hired by this government to mastermind the decline of essential services. The British Nationality Act 1948 removed allegiance to the crown as the basis of citizenship! Now the Government has become so desperate that it wants to indoctrinate children by forcing them to swear allegiance to the Crown at an age when they are too young to appreciate the world around them. Please forgive me if I recall that this is the same government that sought to dismantle the House of Lords and has a hidden agenda to abolish the Monarchy and establish Britain as a republic. It is a pretty desperate situation when the government has to enlist the enemy (The Queen) and innocent children in trying to establish national unity when their best efforts make most of us want to leave.
david elliott, brighton, uk
"Britain is a set of laws and ancient linstitutioins" It is indeed , so clearly what we need is a "tidying up exercise" (where have I heard that recently?). Allegience is as much a state of mind as the result of a ceremony, which is hollow unless the mind is with it. So it is all a bit pointless, unless that is you wish to get our informal and muddled traditional ways sorted out . Then once the population are used to the idea of an oath of allegience the currently unthinkable introduction of an oath of allegience to Brussels becomes just a change of a few words in a concept already established. Have no truck with this latest wheeze, it is just another devious step on the road to surrender.
D.L. Stephens, York, England
If this government of tinkerers,meddlers and fiddlers would desist and push off,we could all go back to being quietly British again.Some of us might even be allowed to be English.
Peter, Manchester, England
The only reason a politician ever wants a written definition of anything is so that he can issue licences against it and charge people for the privilege. Don't give in to this one, he'll only use it as a stick to beat more tax out of us.
Apart from that I declared my Britishness by putting on a uniform for twelve years. Lets see Gordon and his mates top that one.
Anyway, why make an oath to someone who is no longer head of state? All the power is in Brussels and Strasbourg these days, so any declaration of Britishness or oath to an outmoded institution is irrelevant.
KR, Stockport,
"We are subjects not citizens"...
Well, it's about time we set about changing that!
John, Glasgow,
Yes, an oath of allegiance is very un-British harking back as it does to the Norman conquest. But just as the Churches pray every Sunday for the Queen, and just as a condition for Jews to be allowed to open a synagogue that they pray for the monarch, so too it should be a legal requirement for Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and others to pray for the Queen as a part of their worship service. That is a British way to do it. As to schools, every school should have a portrait of the Queen in a prominent place. That's all that is necessary - just reverse some of the liberal-socialist vandalism from the 60s and 70s.
william Haines, Northwood,
We are a realm not a state of the USA - that is the reality. Therefore the British choose not to be like the Americans and always have done. VERY UNBRITISH - the lot of it !!!
Ian Payne, WALSALL,
We are subjects not citizens so this is a non starter.
Iain Rae , Tunbridge Wells, UK