The neo conservative view was that democracy could be imposed on muslim countries by force. That view has
certainly not been vindicated.

John, LONDON,

We should have never started the war with Iraq - regardless of Saddam. I still believe it is an illegal war fought under false pretense and we have created more enemies around the world because of this action. I agree, we need to get out - this isn't about winning anymore - NOBODY WINS here. Countless lives have been lost on the Iraqi side and too many on the American and coalition sides. It is out of hand and our Congress has to do the right thing by the American people and the rest of the world and bring our people home. Once things calm down we should offer help to rebuild, but at this point, this is a civil war and we have no place there. It would have been nice if the ultimate person who made the decision to go storming into that nation would have simply looked at the historical information available at the time of the invasion. It was a bad idea then and now. Bring the troops home.

Robin Stone, Rochester, NY / USA

Is President Putin showing the way forward? When strongmen Tito died the Balkans imploded, Arafat's death has sundered Palastinian unity, the usurping of Saadam and imposing democracy has invoked civil war - always the bloodiest kind of strife. But in Russia the end of the Soviet Union and the financial /social meltdown has been addressed by a new hard man; President Putin who has grabbed his country and forced it to support him without the brutal baggage that the Tsars and communists imposed. Putin seems to have got it right- like the arabs he's got oil as a financial weapon and is canny about using it. President Bush and the other foolish incompetants leading their great country to a crushing defeat of all their ideals as well a their military objectives would do well to find out how to be a hard man and keep the rest of the World on your side.

gordy, London,

War is big business for the right people. It is the biggest and most profitable business on Earth. Think about that!

Garth Strong, Sherman Oaks, USA

Thanks to the American posters.
I'm a Brit living in Calif' for 20 yrs. When I came here, the US was truly still the torch bearer for freedom and ideals of liberty, fairness under the rule of law. Not perfect, where is? but we honestly tried. Like most people around the globe, it felt safe knowing the USA was there.

Now I feel a mix of sadness and anger about my adopted home.

Since GW Bush and the ultra-right have been in power, the whole place is poisoned. Abu Grahb, Guantanamo, heabeas corpus - optional, an imperial Presidency, fundamentlist religion in the corridors of power. (Evolution? Not science here.)

And the biggest utter mess of all, Iraq. Raw imperialism at it's worst. I wish I could wake up in 1985 and start again.

K Wells, Los Angeles, CA, USA

This is the first time I have ever sent mail from here in northern france (long story-3 yrs in waitin ) isolated here (another long st) now 37 with 2 girls ( 9 & 7) & nothing to fall back on but my meanial background from UK schools (although they have fully intergrated..bein here 4 1 full sch year) & heard bout web site on radio 4 womans hr. Put me down as top slummy mum..... cause although life seems idilic to all those who visit.....there are hidden pressures...

sarah Lambert, saussey, france

The whole middle east will completely be nucler armed within 10-20 years. 'NEVER AGAIN WILL WE BE IRAQED!

abdul ali, tehran, iran

Maybe this is giving far more credit than what is due, but has no one considered the notion that maybe Bush knew more what he was doing than it first appears? Surely he had more intelligent/informed people telling him the outcome.

I was thinking the other day.. it doesn't take a genius to realize that removing Saddam would throw Iraq into this situation. Sunnis and Shi'ites have been killing eachother for thousands of years. With such polarizing forces within the country and bordering it, it should not be so hard to visualize this implosion. True Western-style democracy does not work in the Middle East... especially where Sunnis and Shi'ites will be at eachother's throats. It requires someone ruthless to keep them in check.

What if post-9/11, Washington postulated the idea that by destabilizing the Middle East and turning it into a civil war-esque region, their hatred and energy would turn in towards themselves rather than toward the West. Make them their own worst enemy.

MG, Florida,

Mr. Andrew, what you are saying makes so much sense and can be verified by just looking at the history of that region. It is not my place to analyze the Arab culture, but I can observe. And what I see is a culture that is steeped in centuries of sectarian prejudice fueled by a righteous religious viewpoint that mandates the murder of all those that disagree. It is far beyond something that I can think with. It makes me sad as, being a Westerner and brought up on the ideals of democracy and the values that foster it, I don't see a resolution that can be produced by what we are doing there today. I see this sadness in the face and demeanor of President Bush. He is an idealist as most American presidents are, but is finding out the application of this idealism into the Arab street beyond impossible. Military force will not foster the needed change. Some pervasive spiritual awakening throughout the Arab world will have to take place to lift them above their insanity.
G. Zino, L.A. USA

Guy Zino, Los Angeles, USA/CA

Andrew as a American I have to say that your absolutely right. We have a delusional incompetent for a president and evil doers {their term } for his cabinet. Sadly we have pulled your country into this mess with us and now you are paying the price in Britain for the fanaticism of the Bush white house.Every day I dispair at the loss of life,the loss of credibilty and for the sanity of those follow the republican party like rats behind the pied piper. Yes we're helpless in this war perhaps Gordon Browne can atleast save more of your people if not ours.

sonya williams, muskegon, usa/ muskegon

It's the allies who are causing the civil war...DELIBERATELY.

Mike, Manchester, UK

Rob Gennet's arguement that hindsight is 20/20 is absurd. Too many of those who actively supported the war and continue to argue there was no alternative or that no one could have predicted the present calamity, blow raspberries at those of us, who from the start, said it was a bad idea and would result in disaster. May I suggest he reads the late Robin Cook's resignation speech, delivered to the House of Commons before the commencement of hostilities. Cook was not a siren voice, he spoke for many, many people and his predictions outlined in his speech have, almost to a word, come true. I accept that Sullivan may have changed his position as events have developed, but he like most of those who gave Blair and Bush carte blanche, never asked any difficult questions, surely the role of any journalist, and too often dismissed the concerns of those who argued caution. The lack of honesty by the neocon media community is startling - black remains white.

Benedict Bannister, Paris, France

Wow Mr. Sullivan! Only now you figure out it's time to get out of Iraq? Not without insulting the Arabs of course. They are not worthy of our benevolence, are they?

Sinisa, Hamilton,

Very good article on Gaza by Brenda Maddox in yesterday's Times - well worth reading.

Bob , London , UK

Before the Iraq war, it was considered racist in the extreme to say that Arab political culture was... what we are now seeing in Iraq and Gaza. Even now, I do not know if it is the culture of all the Arabs, or the majority, or even a substantial minority. All we know is that it is the culture of the ones who have most of the guns and bombs.

Nobody is speaking for whatever sane Arabs there may be. I don't care if the crazies kill each other. That may be the best solution for all concerned. But I do wonder what will happen to the others. Many have probably left home by now. Will the rest get the chance to leave? Where will they go, and what will happen to them?

M.C., Virginia, USA

"Sullivan Option One" has consequences similar to the Hama massacre of 1982. 30,000+ of the Muslim Brotherhood were slaughtered by Bashar al-Assad's uncle, with minimal US, UK, or Israeli interference or concern. It's a fresher, more reality-based understanding than Peter O'Toole and Sir Alec. "Sullivan Option Two" has US/UK players in the same game as Hama. I am merely demonstrating the tactics and scale of the carnage if one side of the Muslim civil war has its way. Why have reason, democracy, the rule of law, or self-governance when "God sanctions violence without end?"

M.S.Harmanos, Orange County, California, USA,

I invited my christian Palestinian neighbor, who left Ramalhahh(?) twenty years ago, to go for a walk with me Saturday. Her comments regarding the present continuing saga in the West Bank and Gaza, were to blame the Jews, "They trained all these terrorists!" "Poor Aarafat....". What strikes me is that she thinks I'm not familiar with history or current events. I wasn't about to get into an agrument with her..she lives next door!

mp, Plymouth, MI,USA

Ever hear of the term "Hindsight is 20/20" F.S Summers? If not, you might want to look it up. Criticising Andrew Sullivan for not being among "the informed" is both preposterous and revealing of an innate arrogance; not to mention obnoxious. "I told you so" is one of the most childish tactics one can use in an intellectual discussion.

The intellectual honesty and humility that Mr. Sullivan has shown over the years as his opinion on the Iraq war evolved is a rare and refreshing thing and is in stark contrast to your smug, self-satisfied, ignorant posting. So you really KNEW what was going to happen along with your "informed" peers? Great job Nostradamus!

Rob Gennet, New York, NY

As obvious as these lessons seem to any sane individual , I'm sure this lovely Government will ignore them and carry on regardless , because , otherwise , it might look as if they had made a mistake joining this war in the first place . That would make them look foolish ... and we can't have that . Therefore more of our soldiers will die pointlessly on foreign soil , achieving nothing but delaying the inevitable .
Civil war in Iraq was inevitable the moment we got rid of Saddam .
How many thousands of shia and sunni will die this time ? It will all be our fault , because apparently , Iraq deserved better than Saddam . Well I hope everyone who backed the war is pleased with whats been achieved .
I'm just left appalled and embarrassed !

Benzo, Nr Chelmsford,

Welcome to the reality of a post Saddam Iraq Andrew.

You are just catching up now to what the informed knew would happen 4 years ago. Where have you been...

Pay more attention next time, try listening a little harder, and, maybe, you won't be so late to the obvious conclusions.

F.S.Summers, London,

I may be cynical, but, it seems to me that the US dependence on its domestic arms industry is so enormous that it is in their interest to ensure continuing local conflicts.
The Arabs have taken the view that the ungodly US is their natural enemy and must be punished.
Israel, the presumed puppet state of the US, represents a further justification for their suicide missions.
Is there a solution?
I think there may be.
If Bush were to gift, say, Florida in exchange for the Israelis vacating their present homeland - largely artificial, being a poor compromise, cobbled together by Roosevelt; Stalin & Churchill - the Arabs could resume their 2000 year old local disputes.
Immediately thereafter, the US could withdraw from Iraq, with some tattered dignity.
Perhaps no oil, but they can't have everything the

MYLES STANISTREET, CONDOM (aka Durexxe-sur-dik), FRANCE 32

The neocons have been clueless from the start and blaming Arab culture seems pointless. The neocons inhabit an insular world and most of them know very little about the world outside DC. It's not clear what the U.S. is now trying to achieve in Iraq. Is the aim really to achieve a functioning Western style democracy? The UK bequeathed parliaments to most of its former colonies but we know that making democracy work takes time and the success rate is not high. My view is that given the religious divisions in Iraq, democracy is not going to take hold and civil war is inevitable. What is plan B?

brian case, burlington, va