I for one long to go back to the days of the Cold War. Things were simple when the balance of power meant that an attack by the USSR or the US would mean mutual destruction. Today we have a much more dangerous world. Despots like Kim Jong-Il of North Korea and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad work on nuclear weapons systems yet it's President Bush who is vilified. Islamic extremism is exported to the EU like so many barrels of oil and governments ignore the danger. Oh yes, I'd take the Cold War in a heartbeat over our current situation.Because what's happening right now is way too reminiscent of the days leading up to World War II. And too many are ignoring the danger. For them, I leave this warning--If you stick your head in the sand long enough, someone will eventually cut it off.

charles robb, Port St Lucie, Flordida, USA

Robert in Queen Charlotte Canada -

There has NEVER been a US presidential election when someone with 60% of the popular vote lost in the Electoral College. There have been four instances when the loser of the PV won in the EC, but of those four instances (1800, 1824, 1888, and 2000), only the later two took place after the advent of a national PV (there was no national PV at all until well into the 1800s). In 1888, the EC winner lost the PV by only eight-tenths of one percent (47.8% to 48.6%), and in 2000, which I'm assuming is what your emotion-based opinion is founded on, the EC winner lost the PV by less than one-half of one percent (47.87% to 48.38% - source: US Federal Election Commision).

US presidential elections have never been national. They are state-by-state elections that reflect the intent of the Founding Fathers wherein the authority of the individual states is protected, and that uneducated, easily-led, superstitious mobs do not directly decide national issues.

Grant, Ohio,

As far as the UK is concerned we DON'T have democracy. We do have an outdated early 19th century electoral system, which was designed for the small minority who had the franchise. This system still works for a small minority today - hence so many "safe" seats for our MPS. It is also why in the UK a political party can be elected into Government with only 27 per cent of the popular vote. Please don't talk about democracy in the UK - we haven't got it yet.

Neil, Gloucestershire, England

Thank you, Mr. Baker, for using "liberalism" in its proper context. In the USA, Leftists have hijacked the terms "Liberal" and "Progressive", and are now using them as less-alarming euphemisms for their real identity, Socialist thugs.

But you place great stock in the benefits Russia derives as a producer of energy in a time of high oil prices and you place great stock in the benefits China derives as a consumer of energy in a time of high oil prices. The two positions are obviously incompatible.

The only thing we know for sure about commodity bubbles is that they rise fast and they fall fast, and that those who become overextended during a bubble loose out, that is, the current Chinese and Russian political systems. But was that not the whole purpose of Nixon's rapproachment with China and Reagan's challlenge to Russia?

One hundred years ago, there were about 20 democracies in the world. Now there are about 120. Progress has been rapid if unsteady. Do not worry.

Iago, Houston,

There is no democracy when there is no morality. Morality is that which is benelovent to ALL. There is no freedom when you do not have Maturity. Having the maturity to copulate, corrupt and rationalise means free to damage oneself. Know anyone whom doesn’t like materially damaging himself with alcohol, smoke, indulgences, etc. What about emotional and intellectual aspects? Morality is about who you really are whereas moralising is about what the other devil should become.

Most won’t know what democracy truly means. It means the freedom to be Mature and not the freedom to demand maturity from others and the difference between the two is enslavement by one’s own weaknesses. History is only that when you junk your anger which is also your guilt. When a human is not conscious/aware of his true construction, he is merely paving the way for his destruction. When you do not know what or why you are born for, you will gladly tell others what they should be born for. Addiction to hypocrisy.

wheelus, Notts,

We Westerners tend to view China’s rapid economic and social change as a precursor to the country's democratization. But Mark Leonard ("What Does China Think?") argues that as China gets richer the Communist Party is becoming more, not less, authoritarian.
"I think people have underestimated the resilience of the Chinese one-party state,"’ says Leonard. "The issue that is really getting different Chinese political thinkers motivated at present is how to make the one-party state stronger."

JFK Miller, Shanghai, China

James. India was not even one contry before it was occupied by British. So now democracy seems work there. but China has been living in authorities for about 2 thousands years as a big unified country. We had tried democracy in 1940 but that became a disaster. So, please listen to me, a China people. We want democracy but in small pace. let us be. We will figure out our evolution ourselves. An aggressive change of democracy will destroy out country. How can you say Indian mode fits China? If Indian mode fails, when China became another Iraq, you will never suffer from that. You are not Chinese and you are not living here.

Lei, Shanghai, China

**As Robert Kagan, the neoconservative historian and occasional speechwriter for John McCain, argues persuasively in The New Republic, this is the defining historical struggle of the 21st century.**

So we have two groups of ideological zealots, both with steadfast sense of self-righteousness, both with strong determination to make all world obey they ideological principles, both tend to violence – islamists and neocons. It's a dangerous planet...

Sergey, Moscow, Russia

The "Flame of democracy" faded years ago on 9/11.

Paul, Dubai, UAE

Mr. George you seem to be exactly the kind of person that the article talks about in the second paragraph:

"Governments from Beijing to Caracas could trample their citizens into the ground and you wouldn't fill a telephone box with people upset about it. But call for the heads of the warmongers Bush and Blair and a million pairs of brave feet would take to the streets to support you."

Good day to you

Arjun P., Mumbai, India

I suppose that the only thing I'll remember about this olympics is the flap over human rights in china; of course, being a US citizen, this protest seems empty since George Bush's war on terror continues to indescriminantly kill folks around the globe without any worry about human rights. thus, it seems like our countenance also has some ugly pimples on it.

Mr George, Minneapolis, US/MN

Please get off your high horse, in the end of the day, it is cold, hard self interests that is of paramount for any of these countries, including, but not exclusive to, the West. The need to promote democracy?? Please spare me these hypocritical facade.

GFH, Kuala Lumpur,

Steve, what about India? That's a country that is far more diverse both religiously and ethnically. While their democracy isn't perfect, it does function and it proves that a billion people can be governed in a democracy.

James, Bowling Green, USA

At the present time democracy works in many western countries. Our political system cannot be applied to every country however. China is such an example. With an enormous population of around 1.3 billion tight regulation is needed. Without these controls chinese society would crumble. Look at Russia. Politically the country is in a mess and the life of the average russian has not improved since the end of the cold war. It is a controversial statement to make but the authoritarian model is perhaps the best system in China.

steve, bath,

The US is a representative democracy - a republic - not a direct democracy. Direct democracy is mob rule, the tyranny of the majority, where 51% can always overrule 49% no matter how wrong they are. It's akin to two lions and a lamb voting on what's for supper. Virtually none of the social advances which are commonly accepted now would have taken place if they had been put to a popular vote at the time. The Founding Fathers knew that most people tend to base their arguments on emotion and ignorance of the issues instead of facts and principles, and that few will vote against their own petty self interests. That's why leaders should lead and help shape public opinion, not follow it. Otherwise, we might as well do away with congress and the presidency and just have the ignorant masses vote directly on everything by phone or Internet, like some silly TV talent contest.

Grant, Ohio,

The rise in authoritarianism has been as much in Britain as anywhere else but the parallel increase in prosperity has disguised this point. If Britain and America succeed in this quest of imposing democracy on the rest of the world, or the obvious portion of it, there is no doubt that the end result will be a form of general tyranny. The alternative is that they relax this notion of democracy and desist from hegemonic imperialism, but at the moment it seems improbable. The crucial point being that Britain and America need to grasp that they are not democracies. They are particular governments that have developed indigenously over centuries. They need to leave other countries to do the same.

Henry Percy, London, UK

Lets not pretend that the US was on the side of democracy in this "historica struggle".

The US has overthrown democratic governments in Chile, Iran and Guatemala and installed fascist thugs in their place. The US government has attempted to overthrown many other democratic governments such as in Venezuela and in Nicaragua.

Democracy has flourished in the 20th century but it was not because of Western foreign policy -in many cases it was in spite of it.

Dave, Dublin,

Don in London has a very good point. While on the surface it might seem worrisome when other countries invest in, buy, or 'bail out' US and British companies, does that not give them an abiding interest in our continued prosperity and profitability? Surely they don't throw billions of dollars at something in the hopes it will go bankrupt.

Also, protesting against the US and Bush might be very fashionable, but to hear people equating America with fascism and dictators just shows how out of touch spoiled liberal fatcats today are with reality. I wonder how they'll react when faced with the real thing... say from China.

And so now it's 'Gerry' Baker? Nice.

gb, Austin, USA

You forgot to mention the authoritarian American president.

quincy, san antonio, texas

it is just an illusion that democracy in capitalism go hand-in had. in the US economic and political liberalization were co-constitutive. they happened at the same time. but not in early 19th c germany; not in meiji japan; not modern china; not early 20th c. spain. some theories may suggest that social and economic liberalization are inextricable linked. but they are clearly not true. one may wait for it to happen, of course. they can get together with the marxists still waiting for worldwide worker revolution.

to thomas, from dallas--athenian democracy was built on slavery. not just because it was economically important. but, to aristotle at least, slaves existed to support the men who could then have to time to be citizens. a less important line of reasoining for US slaveholders.

the US will never get rid of the electoral college--it would require an amendment and there is no way 3/4th of the smallest states would assent to the profound diminuation of their electoral power.

joe, abbeville, mississippi

Unfortunately, the education system doesn't teach true history anymore, and more importantly they don't teach students why it's important to learn history. You have teenagers today talking about what a great president Carter was, a president who presided over the largest tax increase on the Middle class EVER. His tax increases affected families earning as little as 20K a year, but was justified because he was trying to help out "The Poor". Socialism is definitely on the rise, and people today, especially the younger generation have no idea how bad things can get. I guess the world is going to have to go through another Carter Style Stagflation for people to finally learn their lesson. And I say the world because let's face it, the U.S. is the world biggest consumer of everything, it's going to be very difficult for other countries to prosper if we're in the dumps.

Juan, Delray Beach, FL - USA

Economy is the foundation of politics. Chinese income of a family still at the low level, may be equal to the level of 1920-1940s' USA or UK . Think about at that time, black people had nothing in political right. I don't deny the developed countries have better political environment than today's china, however, the big, very big political progress has been achieved in China compared to 10 years or 20 years ago. nobody noticed because western media only focus on their interests, just like prisoners, polices etc, you know what, these so-call first-hand news mostly are fake or fabricated by some Chinese illegal immingrants who want to get better lives or green cards. We, as smart as you, are learning step by step not forced by western protest or media pressure but willing to walk our own way according to our 5000-year-history views.

andy, missoula , MT

Certainly the U.S. has little, if any, credibility with the rest of world from which to lecture on the care and feeding of democracy and liberty if it cannot perceive the distance that it itself has descended down the slippery slope of 21st century fascism in its rush to surrender it civil liberties for the promised safety from Islamic extremism. President Bush has repeated the partial truth that his primary responsibility is the SAFETY of the American people. Yet, no member of our media has had the courage to remind President Bush that his oath of office, taken directly from Article II, Section 1of the U.S. Constitution reads: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." No President in our history has made more frequent or seriously erosive attacks upon the U.S. Constitution.

David Haley, Seattle , USA/ Washington

Every country and its own citizens have their own rights to choose their system. 60% of the world people have democracy? Not so.

I am an American citizen. I have a Ph.D and did my postdoctal work at Harvard University.

Even U.S. democracy has a lot of problems. Does everyone have the equal rights? Of course not. I guess you define democracies if the people can cast votes. Does India have real democracy with a cast system? Does Iran have democracy even if Iranians can vote? Does Russia have democracy even if Russians can vote? Chinese can also technically vote though the vote is controlled. All these countries do not have democracy.

Average people's living standard has deteriorated in almost all those so called newly democratic countries. Russians under Putin live better now than before. Very few countries (if any) realized their industrialization under democracy. For instance, Japan, Germany, Korea, Taiwan et al realized that under military dictorship.

Teddy, San Jose, U.S.A.

I think it is unfair to make any single statement about the Liberalism that currently exists in the US, as it is an extremely factionalized political group.

I think it is clear in the context of the French Revolution that it was a call for social Equality, not total equality of outcomes. I think that is best demonstrated in The Declaration of the Rights of the Man and of the Citizen, most notably in Article 1, which states "Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions may be founded only upon the general good.", there are other parts of the document that further clarify the point. It must be realized that in pre-revolutionary France, inequality was actually what was enforced by massive government intervention. Basically, what they meant by equality was that fundamentally all men are created equal, and that whatever social distinctions do eventually exist must only exist for the betterment of society and not merely the privilage of the elite

Andrew N., Morgantown, West Virginia

"It was only thanks to the resilience of Western populations and brilliant statesmanship that our values triumphed then". Gerry Baker is way off here, even though Western pressures were great, the communist pressures were great as well. USA was involved in costly wars in Korea, Vietnam, which they did not win.

The collapse of the Soviet Union had been impacted little by the Western Pressures as USA was impacted little by Soviet Pressure, instead it was the Soviet systems and the lack of effective and continuing reforms that should have been enacted in the Soviet Union after Stalin died.

Remember Soviet Union was not a communist nation BAKER, read MARX, but a form of Oligarchic socialism after STALIN. First of all communism to begin the revolution has to be initiated by the laboring class not by aristocrats as LENIN was. The social dictator would prepare society for society without government and eventually the government would disolve and people who reign in common.

Naleen, Northern California,

Since the 70's and the backlash of the neo-cons, Liberalism has become as much as a dirty word in American politics as "commie," in fact the two are practically synonymous. Call someone a 'liberal' in a public debate and see how quickly they prevaricate--if they need to--as appearing to be 'liberal' is just as much a ruse as appearing to be competent. And appeasing the attack dogs of the right has become a full-time job, while straddling the middle.

What's ironic is that our own market system has compromised our political democracy more so than any so-called radical liberal politics ever could have done.

America, supported by Capitalism which argues a free market, has allowed China to virtually dominate our own market; while China shows an iron fist to its own people and the rest of the world.

Elan Durham, Santa Monica, CA/US

"That's the point social liberals have been trying to make for decades - so called 'economic liberalism' has nothing to do with social liberalism, or democratic freedoms. "

Bull. You would do yourself well to read Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" and Friedman's "Free to Choose".

While China is certainly more economically free then it was, it is by no means an 'economically liberal' country. But to the extent that it is, it isn't hard to see the small ammount of political freedom that has gone along with the liberalisation of that part of the economy.

Economic and Political freedom are intrinsically linked. They are quite simply not, and cannot be, mutually exclusive.

It does not take much of a studying of economic history to see that this is not a matter of opinion, but rather, it is a truism.

If there is a true threat to political freedom, it is the lack of true education on these subjects.

James, NYC,

All so true. The West has indeed lost its collective moral compass and seems ashamed of its own success, with millions of otherwise intelligent people prepared to indulge in ludicrous moral relativism to justify and whitewash the crushing of freedoms in faraway lands. Clearly there are flaws in the democratic systems at work in the Western world today, but the advantages the Western system offers to all humans are equally self-evident. I wonder what future generations will make of the West's moral surrender in what should have been its moment of triumph?

Peter Dickinson, Kyiv, Ukraine

Modern Liberalism is not the Liberalism of old. As R J Neuhaus said of todays Liberals " the profound bigotry and antintellectualism and intolerance and illiberality of liberalism ". These ' Olympians ', are radical egaliterian and radical individualists. These beliefs are antitheical to Democracy. For instance the French Revolution cry was ' Liberty. Equality. Fraternity '. It does not take a genius to see that these three together are impossible to achieve. Equality is the end result of radical egalitarianism. To achieve equality, usually defined as equality of outcomes requires Government intervention on a massive scale. Affirmative action is an example of this. It has created enormous resentment among everyone. The cure was worse than the disease! I think that is enough intellectual stimulus for today!

Desmond Taylor, Houston, USA Tx

I'm told that the first Olympic torch run was at the Games in 1936 in Hitler's Germany.

john problem, winchester, uk

Are we in England now living in a democracy?
Have I missed something - just when did we quit the EU and establish an English Parliament?

Sean Dunne, Louth, UK

"It was only thanks to the resilience of Western populations and brilliant statesmanship that our values triumphed then."

Together with an empoverished educational system, this is just what is lacking today; these "non-brilliant" politicians who are offered to us as the only examples of what is available for election are the very reason for the title of your essay: "The flame of democracy fading".

Michael Martin-Morgan, Rosal, Spain

Gerard

I don't know why you find it so strange that the same people who oppose the murderous and world-destabilisibng aggresion of the US and UK in Iraq should also be opposed to the murderous, exploitative tyranny of China.

I also never understood why, back in the 'sixties, older folk of your ilke never understood that one could be opposed to both the US war in Viernam and the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia.

What's the problem? Tyranny, aggresion and the slaughter of innocents are all bad things. Go re-read your Orwell. Old Eric understood these things.

Having said which, you are correct in pointing out that the tide has turned in the favour of dictatorship. One hopes that a less compromised US administartion ( that's code for Obama ) might be able restore the West's moral credibility and unity, if not its prosperity

volov, Auckland, New Zealand

Get rid of the electoral college, and apply the principle of one person, one vote, then you can say truthfully that America has a Democracy. When 60 % of the population vote one way and the election goes to the other side, how can you say you have a Democracy?

Robert, Queen Charlotte, Canada

The difference between a biscuit and a cake is that when a biscuit becomes stale it becomes softer, whereas a cake becomes harder.

Richard Rae, Twickenham,

Congratulations western media! Even though the chinese have plenty of gripes about their government, you have succeeded in doing what neither the communist party, not Chairman Mao have ever managed to acheive: the chinese people are uniting wholesale behind their government to a degree never seen before.

Propaganda, lies, being economical with the truth: all strong features western media are excelling at this month.

Dr Rob Alcock, Swansea, UK

Re:
Dr David Green, Athens, Greece
"America for all her faults and mistakes - Iraq being its most egregious - is still the safeguard of democracy as the ancient Athenians conceived it."

Yes, with slaves. Nice democracy.

--
Ancient Athens had slaves, too, oh wise one.

Thomas, Dallas,

It seems clear that 'capital'... political, economic or social is rapidly being expended in the west. Our societies whether they are American, British or French are being flushing down a cultural toilet all so we can be members of the credit rich; rich in pocket but poor in mind. Even that is soon to go. We have been left horribly exposed by our interconnectivity (globalization) and our isolation (break up of families, individualism, consumerism, lopsided work-life balance). No wonder the 21st century version of fascism (autocratic nationalism/capitalism) is rising to replace our bankruptcy. The west lost its moral and political right to lead a long time ago, who are we to lecture anyone, when our people are homeless in the streets and old people die silently because they can't pay their bills.No doubt our own not so glorious leaders will blame China when our economy collapses and the whole sorry cycle will reset and begin again.

Derek , Toronto , Canada

This is an excellent article. Perhaps we should be optimistic that China is in reality coming to share in the freedom of the West yet, because of its vast population and potential for ideological and then political fragmentation/dissolution, is overly defensive by clamping down harshly on dissent.Yet, this is no excuse for any cruel treatment of dissenters in the community, in custody, in prisons or psychiatric hospitals. (Read "China's Psychiatric Inquisition").China's attitude to Tibet could be compared with Russia's attitude to Chechnya. Tibet, (but note Tibetans initiated violence) is not seeking independence,only economic justice & autonomy, religious - why not? Recent report is that in future, all death penalty verdicts in China must be approved by central govt. It would be better to end the death penalty but at least this is a step forward.CHINA & THE WEST should emphatically denounce thug Prachandra who has not stopped his followers' killing, violence & intimidation which seemed to increase in lead up to election, & now he threatens the King if Maoists lose out. Nepal should have political leaders who reflect the nature of the people, and who can govern free from the fear death, violence and intimidation.

Joan Moira Peters, Whangarei (UK Citizen , temp. overseas)

The Chinese Communist Party endeavours to survive by whatever means available. They now have both marxist ideology and full blown capitalism at their disposal. What is it that they are trying to achieve? What possible end result is there that is to anyones advantage, most of all their own? The world could be a good place to live in, but there are many egotistical individuals and groups who for their own perverted reasons would have it otherwise. That is the dillema facing all kind and reasonable people who live in the democratic part of the world.

Colin, Carmarthen, UK

Excellent Article. Worrying but excellent.

Begs the question though - what can we do about it? I dont see any way of breaking Britain out of our social stagnation. It would be nice to think we could rally people around the idea of global community and liberalisation once more but the truth is that since Thatcher put 'individual gains' above social cohesion and a sense of the greater good...well we're a long way coming back from that.

Chris, Newcastle,

Democracy is darned hard work for those of us who are active participants. I spend countless hours on the political process discerning the difference between candidates and who would be best to lead the U.S. I represent only one vote but it is darned important to me.

For nations that have never known freedom and never had legitimate choices and free elections, Democracy would appear to them as just another "burden". Even here in the U.S. there are too many who prefer simply falling into "lockstep" behind the candidate who promises the most government handouts and biggest "free lunch"

Randy, Michigan, USA

Considering Slovinia's proximity to Greece I would have expected it's education syllabus to be a bit stronger on Ancient Greek history. Athens and other greek city-states actively practiced slavery.

John, Bristol, UK

Dr David Green, Athens, Greece
"America for all her faults and mistakes - Iraq being its most egregious - is still the safeguard of democracy as the ancient Athenians conceived it."

Yes, with slaves. Nice democracy.

Igor, Ljubljana, Slovenia

"Today China, with its vast store of US Treasury bonds has American prosperity in its grip. "

Or perhaps the US has China's prosperity and political stability in it's grip - it's hard to know. China could surely dump a lot of US Treasuries at a huge cost to Chinese investors - someone else would get a vast bargain as Chinese sold at fire-sale prices. The US would find imports costing more but US exports would become more competitive. European factory workers might end bearing much of the cost.

rememebr the old adage that when you owe the bank £200,000 you have a problem, but when you owe the bank £200,000,000 the bank has a problem. Might this be China's problem more than that of the US?

Don, London, UK

Many questions here and many things to act upon.
I hope it is not too old fashioned to cite Karl Popper. Then we could talk about an "Open Society". This open society would have an almost internal critical structure.
Shame that the false God of Capitalism has no such structure within, in terms of a democratic critical humanitas.

steve bowles, kemi, Finland

Living in Athens where the idea of democracy as we know it today was born I can only weep at its removal from the political world. Yes, China deserves what it's getting but not seeing since the protests are censured from the TV screens - but look much closer to home. A new EU treaty was brought into existence without the direct consent of the peoples of Europe, except for the Irish. Leaders who promised their electorate a vote on the issue reneged and some were blatantly honest in their skulduggery in admitting that if they asked their electorate the treaty would have been defeated. The EU is now a vast bureaucracy attended by an ineffective and inefficient body politic. America for all her faults and mistakes - Iraq being its most egregious - is still the safeguard of democracy as the ancient Athenians conceived it. Gordon Brown is now recognised worldwide as a clown not only because he can't negotiate a table but because he sold his democratic inheritance for a bauble of power.

Dr David Green, Athens, Greece

"The most significant defeat of all has been in China, where the success of limited capitalism has not been matched by political freedom. "

That's the point social liberals have been trying to make for decades - so called 'economic liberalism' has nothing to do with social liberalism, or democratic freedoms.

And which one have our major Western 'democracies' been promoting for the last half-century? Not social liberalism or democratic governments, as the US's history in South America shows.

The same people protesting now, who you happen to agree with right now, are the same ones who've been fighting for change over the last decade - because change has to begin in *our* backyard.

Gail, Wellington, Global Citizen