"The mischief begins when, instead of calling forth the activity and powers of individuals and bodies, it [a government] substitutes its own activity for theirs; when, instead of informing, advising, and, upon occasion, denouncing, it makes them work in fetters, or bids them stand aside and does their work instead of them. The worth of a State, in the long run, is the worth of the individuals composing it;..."

"...a State which dwarfs its men, in order that they be more docile instruments in its hands even for beneficial purposes - will find that with small men no great thing can really be accomplished; and that the perfection of the machinary to which it has sacrificed everything will in the end avail it nothing, for want of the vital power which, in order that the machine might work more smoothly, it has preferred to banish."

From J.S. Mill's "On Liberty". He could, apparently, see the future.

James, Sunderland,

I am disgusted by the current state of police training, or lack of it. Some years ago when I joined up, it was a mandatory requirement that all police trainees passed a pretty rigourous life-saving course. If you couldn't pass this course you couldn't be a police officer. Now I find that this course isn't even run any more by many forces. The current police fitness test for new recruits is also a complete joke.

New recruits seem to be well versed in not taking risks and in how not to offend anybody, but traditional skills, affcting our ability to protect life and catch criminals (the things most of us join to do) seem to be increasinly ignored in favour of these things.

There needs to be a thorough rethink regarding the whole basis of police training and what police officers should be able to do for the public.

Andrew, Nottingham, UK

Lets stick to facts. The PCSO is not a Police Officer. If they were remotely culpable for the lad's death the inquest would have reflected such. The Emergency Services use a process of dynamic risk assessment to ensure their safety. As a former member of the emergency services from the 80's/90's we were repeatedly advised about risks to yourself. A dead rescuer helps no one! There is a constant theme of risk aversion in the public sector which does need addressing and H & S gets the blame because of ignorance or laziness by managers.

Paul, Sheffield, UK

The Jordan Lyons case raises another point. The two officers concerned may now suffer serious mental health problems because they were not allowed to help a drowning child. They will have to spend the rest of their lives with the knowledge that they might have been able to help but couldn't because of the HSE.
Could they now sue the HSE on the grounds that their own health has been irreparably damaged ?

Simon Newcastle on Tyne UK

Simon, Newcastle on Tyne, UK

If it wasnt for these no win no fee solicitors, health and safety wouldnt have scared everyone to death. Everyday we hear of someone getting money for an accident, no wonder companies and emergency services are scared to let their staff do anything

Ian, Salisbury, UL

I'm no fan of the health and safety culture, but I am a natural contrarian, so...

Regarding the community support officers, every course I've been on has told me not to enter the water unless I'm trained in rescuing people. This is realistic, it's a way of preventing two deaths instead of one. Unless you know what to do and are a confident swimmer, diving in to save someone from drowning is quite likely to end in your death.

The first rule of emergency response is to assess the danger to yourself before entering the environment. This is so you don't make a second problem for the next person who arrives. We quite often hear of someone jumping in to rescue somebody only to drown themselves.

So yes, there is an argument for training support officers to do this sort of rescue. But I don't blame these officers for not divng in if they did not know what to do. In the long run, fewer people will die from this policy.

Jamie Gilmour, Gtr Manchester, UK

An easier answer: when the next person dies as a result of Orwellian HSE diktat, prosecute the HSE. Prosecute not collectively but individually--that will sure make a difference!

SG Simmons, Wadhurst, Sussex

The police make their livings second-guessing the public.

I see no problem with public bodies second-guessing the police. Oversight of police is our duty.

Common law was founded on the principle of one law for all, regardless of occupation. Prior to that it was believed that people of one trade or profession were not qualified to sit in judgment of people in other trades and professions .

As for the of politicians and members of the "law enforcement club" who allowed the wreckless killing of de Menzies to occur or who helped the culprits escape justice: The public should not allow the undermining of justice by our (government) employees to continue to occur unpunished.

We must not permit the natural tendency to official bureaucracy to slide us into a police state.

Holding the occupation of police officer does not give someone the right to interfere with the course of justice.

Keith Terrence, Winnipeg, Canada

The problem is not when it is police work or fire department work, the problem is when it is a life-threatening emergency and people see a need to act outside of their normal range of duties.

While individual police or fire fighters might face these circumstances more often and more publicly, many emergencies are handled by private individuals daily.

Any exemption should be based on the exceptional circumstances, not the regular employer or regular duties.

Keith Terrence, Winnipeg, Canada

Why don't we start a campaign or website or something to get funds together to sue the HSE for in this particular case having rules that endangered the childs life and ultimately led to his death. We should then sue the HSE for every occasion that something like this happens and then the funds from the hoped for compensation can be ploghed back into sueing the HSE until it is forced to get rid of a lot of these rediculous rules. We could give some of the money to the families of the deceased. Come on people lets try and sue the HSE out of existence! Maybe The Times could start the ball rolling, i would be willing to donate.

Tom, London, UK

It is a no win situation, as a health and safety manager it is society that has gone mad and the powers that be having to respond to the madness.

The culture we live in were you can make a claim for anything!!
Were does it stop.
Stop the no win no fee claims culture and then there will be no need for not being able to use your common sense

kate pearson, West Midlands,

The HSE have made decorators, like myself , ware hard hats when painting the out side of a property. Have you ever heard of anything as stupid, what is going to fall on your head? Bird droppings? It's time the fools who make these stupid rules were fired and someone with some common sense given the job.

d case, newquay,

The HSE has turned into an overbearing quango and money pit,
the perfect tool of the loony left nanny state!

Get rid of it, and while you're at it, get rid of Gordon and the rest of
the leftist lunatics who have ruined this once great country.

Gwilym Morgan-Jones, Wales,

I suggest that Police officers be equipped with safety masks in case they have to arrest a motorist lighting up a cigarette at the wheel. We really cannot have policemen(or women) endangering their own health in case they inhale the dreaded lingering smoke.

One hopes common sense will prevail, sooner rather than later.

Rajesh Mehta, Nairobi, Kenya

I don't see what this has to do with liberal orthodoxy. The account I read featured a restrictive law and wooden-headed public servants and had nothing to do with orthodoxy, liberal or otherwise.

JohnG, London,

When the case of Jordon Lyon is discussed, and the supposed failings of the police community support officers (PCSO's) discussed, the number one golden rule of Live Guarding, is never mentioned.

The simple rule states that "the life guard should never compromise their own safety". Failure to adhere to this rule may lead to the supposed rescuer requiring assistance and increasing the complexity of the situation.

When Jordon Lyon disappeared below the surface of the water in a flooded mine shaft, entering the water and diving towards the bottom to look for him without correct training or safety measures in place became untenable.

Life Guarding is all about applying the mind to saving lives, rather than the heart. The PCSO's, in my opinion, acted correctly irrespective of HS&E guidelines and should not be persecuted for their actions.

Callum, London,

Camilla is rightly suggesting a small set of circumstances when H&S rules should be ignored, not getting rid of them altogether as some of you seem to want.
I agree that over-zealous bureacrats make things worse, but let's not forget that greedy lawyers encourage greedy people to believe that they have a right to money every time there's an accident. Scrapping H&S legislation altogether wouldn't avoid that. And, as Camilla says, H&S laws exist to protect ordinary people from unscrupulous companies and people.
It should be possible to define a situation where ignoring the rules is allowed: something like '...where not acting could result in serious injury or loss of life.'.

Will Duffay, London,

It comes from the intrusion of the State into any and every aspect of our lives - the State knows best and the State bears the primary responsibility for addressing any social wrong.

We are slowly but steadily surrendering any sort of personal responsibility and the result can be found in a growing benefit culture and general social breakdown.

H, London,

One you have people whose jobs depend on a continuing flow of health and safety directives, you will indeed get a continuing flow of health and safety directives.

The only solution is for everyone else to tell H&S to get lost, or more politely, to do their job properly rather than create work for themselves and others.

William McIlhagga, Ilkley,

This 'creep' of Health and Safety laws in to areas that were never originally envisaged to be included within the scope of the law is inevitable. Unless particular occupations /activities are specifically excluded this will happen. Even then a challenge is likely. Do not confuse the law with common sense. NO law anywhere makes an allowance for common sense. By it's very nature this is impossible to acheive. The law is a sledgehammer not an precision tool.

John, Reading, UK

Nicely summarised problem. I can only see one thing that needs adding - democracy is about choice and responsibility, government is about control and regulation whilst avoiding responsibility. Those two definitions need to be enshrined in law somewhere and form the basis of all references in cases where liability is being decided. That alone could give grounds for challenging cases brought by numpties looking for a handout and stupid prosecutions brought by the bureaucracy that looks no further than safeguard their increasingly-meaningless jobs.

Maybe some MP with a brain (fat chance) could make a name by enshrining the responsibility of democracy into a legally enforceable definition that makes people responsible for their own risks - from having children to saving them. That includes the risks that go with a career choice, with due provision for reward and care of those injured in the line of duty.

KR, Stockport,

As you say, the Community Support officers in question were neither brave nor courageous enough to stick two fingers up to the bureaucratic rules and do the morally right thing. But then, it has been reported that there were three fishermen nearby. Did they jump in to save the drowning boy? Did anyone else? Sadly, the reaction of most bystanders these days is as sorry as that of the CS officers; abdicate responsibility and call the "authorities" instead. And when it goes wrong, at least we can blame said authorities.

How sad that the only person in this terrible incident with any real courage was the little girl's ten year-old brother. What a shaming fact.

Carl Meredith, St Albans,

How can any able bodied adult stand and do nothing when a child is drowning? There are millions of untrained, out of shape poor swimmers who would have jumped in to help - it was a pond / lake, not raging rapids for heavens sake.
These 2 'police' should be ashamed of themselves, and the idiots who dream up these rules replaced, by people with good old fashioned common sense and decency.

tony, birmingham, uk

Let's face it. The government doesn't want brave people who think for themselves and use their initiative. It wants frightened, obedient proles who can be pushed around. This government is obsessed with control, not leadership.

Richard, Dunsatble,

Too many meaningless bordering nonsense laws permit anyone to question anything. Terrorists, fifth columnists and criminals make use of the loopholes. Democracies need to overhaul their laws.

In Jordon Lyon and his stepsister's case, the community support officers ought to have done their natural duty to help them. What is use of support officers, if they are not trained in swimming? All the emergency and support personnel ought to be well trained and equipped to come to citizen's help instead of becoming a bunch of spectators! This glaring lacuna needs to be plugged immediately.
Regards,

Krishna R. Kumar, Udupi, India

Terrific piece. Political correctness and tax-fat bureaucrats are throttling common sense and core values. Thanks for having the courage to challenge liberal orthodoxy on this issue.

SaM., CLT, USA

easy answer..................scrap the HSE

george, lincoln, uk