How many of the posters here who have posted if Mugabe had not taken farms from white zimbabweans? Most of you would not even know mugabe nor zimbabwe so stop all the moralizing rubbish

kiarie +, ulm,

The developments in Zimbabwe which show the brutality of a regime that was at first so promising, demonstrates the truth of the age old proverb: Power corrupts. In this case it does so very violently.

Hasan Abdulla, Reading, United Kingdom

My son in law, born Zambia opines that Sth Africa will become ungovernable. I , with only a little experience of Africa forecast these happenings when Mc Millan spoke of winds of change.

William douglas., Nambucca Heads. , N S W Australia.

Who is the guy that was the leader before Mr Mugabe?
Was he as bad as this gentleman? Is my memory fading? Is he still alive? Our reporters should interview him now and hear what he has to say.
It would be interesting to see who is saying " I told you so"

William, Earth,

And what of the Anglican Church? Pre-1980 some of its bishops and other spokesmen were calling for the Smith regime to be overthrown by armed force. What are its leaders saying now?

Hal G. P. Colebatch, Nedlands, Western australia

i think south african leaders think mugabe is their god, so why dont they let him rule south africa not zimbabwe,its not mugabe who helped you its the zimbabwean old zanu and zapu the nation not the ruling party wake up where is papa mandela, no comment, thanks a lot .........................

southerner, london, zimbabwe

The article makes its point well, but goes nowhere near far enough in getting to the heart of the problem.... and that is tribalism, personally I think even thats a get out clause , I call it racism. Look at what happened in Rwanda, look at whats happening in dafor, look at whats happening to the minorty tribes by the ruling majority in Zimbabwe and to some degree look at whats happened to white Zimbabweans. You will find ethnic cleansing, racist action, enforced gettoisation. You will find death, rape, murder, torture, victinisation, intimidation fostered on one race or tribe by another. How many have died... more than during the apartheid era (sure)... more than during the hollocaust (probably). Black leaders stand behind their pathetic stance not to interfere in other countries, not to denounce state sponsored racist action... were they so quiet over apartheid.. no. They lack the simple guts and intelligence to call whats going on by its real name.. racism.

anthony harrisson, london, uk

My heart sank the day i sought asylum in the UK. Aged 21 then, i knew my life would change forever. It did, I lost my life, family, hope. I left Zimbabwe in 2000, the country was already gropped in immense fear. The kind of fear that i still feel even just from watching images of Mugabe and his police on TV from my UK residence. One thing I soon realised after settling, was that the UK gorvernment had no idea what opposing the Zimbabwe gorvernment meant for every Zimbabwean. Sadly, most if not all of the international community have no idea. Australia and the US come to mind, rushing to impose sanctions that will only hit hardest on the ordinary Zimbabwean. One can tell they are trying to fight a battle they clearly do not understand. David Aaronvitch's comment in today's Times shows he's a man who understands the Zimbabwe crisis. If only the powers that be, Margret Beckett, Ms Rice and the rest stopped scratching the surface and made the effort, like David, to dig deeper.

Ndanatsa, Derby, England

And what has Brian Haw got to do with Zimbabwe?

It's true, Britain does bear some guilt for what happens in Zimbabwe - for actions in our colonial past and for the unfair political and economic climate we perpetuate - but it's not clear what we should do about it.

One man cannot protest about everything bad that's happening to anyone anywhere. The chaos in Iraq, unlike that in Zimbabwe, was a direct result of our invasion, and is continually exacerbated by our presence; we could make things better straight away by owning up to our responsibilities, and by leaving like the Iraqis want us to.

That seems worh a Briton in London protesting about. So too are the crimes perpetrated by regimes and companies we actively prop up all over the world. The fact that there are also crimes being comitted in Africa by Africans doesn't take anything away from that.

http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com

Dave, Woking, England

To John, 63, who says

''I really thought my generation would change the world''

You're wrong, your generation did change thw world, and my generation will never forgive you for it. We all have so many 'rights', but no one seems to mention that these MUST be balanced by responsibilities. Another thing that your generation changed, in the past givernment accepted that their primary function above ALL others was the protection and interests of their own citizens. What other purpose can there possibly be for organised national governments?! Yet this view no longer seems to hold true, is though unfashionable and selfish. The needs of the few above the needs of the many, money pouring out of the country for 'good causes' when people blindly step around people sleeping in our streets, watching without any (helpful) reaction when a young boy is chased, stabbed and killed.

This is no longer a country of citizens.

Carl McGuire, Leeds, Britain

Mugabe is a tyrant. We all know that, but is it because he is black and can torture, kill, maim and destroy a once thriving economy, that noone takes any action?
If it were a "white" government committing these vile acts of repression etc---what then?
Mbeki, Bush and the rest are all weak----but if oil was involved---
It is a sick world.

Bob, Somerset West, South Africa

Politicians and governments have very little say in terms of forcing African countries to modify their internal mechanisms. This is becuse of the fundamental policies of the African Union with 53 member states (all African countries except Morocco) which are based upon "defence of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and independance of its Member States" and "non-interference by any Member State in the internal affairs of another". These clauses are enforced totally because they were the backbone of independance from colonialism, and even a strong well developed country member such as South Africa cannot stray from the fundamentals and break the "unity" or "solidarity" of the AU treaty. Outside the EU there is even less influence. The 53 AU members comprise 27% of the votes in the UN General Assembly and over 40% of the powerful Group of 77 developing countries. No General Assembly criticism of Zimbanwe would even reach a vote.

Peter Lees, Radstock, UK

As a Zimbabwean, did South Africans solve their problems during aparthied by themselves? Why is South Africa quite? Why does Mbeki and Mandela have a different view on the situation? Before you answer these questions don't forget that your president not long ago didn't believe in AIDS your former vice president raped an HIV inffected women. What do you think would have happened to South Africas fight for freedom if Mugabe had done this before 1992?

Bledza, NY, usa

One wonders whether those progressive liberals of old are really committed to the ideals and principals that they once stridently voiced during the days of "national liberation" or whether all of those loft principals and ideals were only applicable when supportive of their own parochial political interests.

David R., Arlington, Virginia

Unfortunately Africa can never recognise colourless Apartheid. There is a subtle undertone in Sub-Saharan Africa of expelling all non-black people. What will happen I believe is that when that is achieved they will start working on tribal expulsion (like in Zim) until one dominant tribe rules in each country.
The world must realise that to impose western style democracy in Southern Africa will never work, African countries are regions that will always gravitate to tribal rule. First get rid of the white imperialists, then get rid of any opposition, that is the way it seems to work.

Andrew Roger Williamson, Bury St Edmunds,

I think you should more appropriately ask what has happened to yourself, though obviously I can’t myself offer the earlier view. I would think that whatever you would say about Aziz would apply to yourself. You have both become established to advantage in your own status quos, so that you will exhibit differing attitudes in particular situations. You have clearly signed on to the theory that everything said by British officials, in cases such as Zimbabwe, is right and are no longer in a position to dispute it. You have progressed from protesting on behalf of the NUS to protesting on behalf of broader interests, like Haw. Let’s face it. You have no more power to dispute the British policy on Zimbabwe than Zimbabweans have to dispute Mugabe.

Henry Percy, London, UK

"We all applauded, and imagined the day when whites no longer held the whip-hand over the blacks."

Whites never "held the whip-hand over the blacks" in Rodesia or in South Africa after 1836. That was and is the lie that is still put forth. The opponents of Arparthied, called not just for democracy and they certainly did not call for government with the consent of the governed. They called for unfettered majority rule in a unitary state (not a federal system) with borders unaltered from 1910. If you took the same stand in the UK, there would be no Scottish parliment. Please stop the lies.

Doug Forbes, Wheeling, USA

What world are you living in? Communism is dead, and has been for a long while.

As to Mugabe being Catholic, let's not go there. He certainly is the antithesis of anything Roman Catholic.

Jackie Kaiser, Brick, NJ, USA

'Aziz, what happened to you?' My guess is nothing happened to him. He's still the same person that he was 31 years ago.

'It may not be what we expected back in '76 ...' You can't be serious! Maybe you should have quizzed the Communists in your Lisbon delegation about Stalin. In the 1980s one of my erstwhile university classmates - a left wing student radical from a decade before - managed to get herself tied to a post in Grenada and shot to death by another liberation movement.

I also destested the smug brutality of apartheid and its fellow travellers in 1976, but I wasn't so callow as to imagine that what would come after couldn't be as bad.

Turner McGrath, Calgary, Canada

We all know, every one of us, in our hearts, that had Ian Smith's government remained in power far fewer Zimbabweans would now be dead (probably hundreds of thousands), far fewer would have fled abroad (millions), none would be starving or homeless and all would be far better off. But of course Mugabe is black, so that's OK then.

John, London, UK

The tragedy in Zimbabwe illustrates what happens when true democracy is not maintained. Whether or not the countries of the world think they need democracy or not, it is still demonstrably the best form of government by far.
Aaronovitch is consistent in opposing dictatorship and his attitude contrasts strongly with those who seem to delight in the actions of the murderers who daily threaten Iraq's fragile nascent democracy.

arnoldo, Coventry,

I remember a Labour Party meeting many years back - when I was an activist. I queried what was happening in Zimbabwe and was regaled with laughter and cries of 'racist'.

I have no doubt that the same people will be sitting in the same Party meetings now and blaming 'racists' for not acting earlier.

One of the wonderful things about being a 'Liberal' (to use the US expression) is that you will always be right.

Hugh, London,

Zimbabwe's plight isn' t being broadcast round the clock unlike Iraq, and so the lazy british publics sympathy is not being engaged. This makes me want to scream.

Gemma Jones, Aberdeen,

Are there ANY african countries that aren't struck down by famine, excessive crime, grinding poverty, or corrupt governance?

Have any african nations correctly / sustainably exploited their natural resources to create adequate prosperity / education / healthcare for the people?


An honest question.

My perception thanks to the news media is that the entire continent is a massive charity case with corrupt leaders, and very very poor people struck down by poverty, crime and AIDS.

Neg Richards, Bedford, England

Here is a brilliant idea by David, Grantham. Whats the pope got to say about that, I wonder.

Taff, Stoke-on-trent, UK

I disagree that colonialism is better for Africa. Ghana was once one of the greatest world empires, much like the Aztecs and Incas. Then Britain lumped 200 tribes together in Nigeria, and we expect them to get along. Africa was better off having never seen a white man.

Ben, York,

Odd that, under Ian Smith, Rhodesia had everyone against them and yet had a flourishing economy, while Mugabe (though not the population) get given aid from all directions and the economy is a basket case.
Further coment would be racist!

Mike Bibby, St Albans, England -not EY

David, why do South Africans called Ex- Rhodesians - "Whenwes" ? .. any ideas ?

Norman Tomlinson, Lancaster, Lancashire

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Your activitsts were never interested in less corruption, just a "equal opportunity" to participate in it.

April Summers, Johannesburg, ZA

simon from brunei.

you've got at all wrong. Mugabe WAS a saviour and now i dont know how to describe him.

with over 6 mil Zimbabwean leaving the country surely its not only foreign countries who have a problem with Zimbabwe.
Trust me I know better.

Tinotenda...
for the record, iam Zimbabwean.

ashley, leeds,

I love the hypocracy of this article and the reponses. All these self righteous Brits expecting South Africa to solve Zimbabwe's problems. What do you expect SA to do? Invade Zim, and create a mess of similar proportions to what the US/UK has done in Iraq? Or maybe we should cut off the electricity? Yes, nothing like causing a few more hospital deaths to get Mugabe's attention. It's already clear that vocal condemnation from any quarter doesn't work. The facts are that this is a Zimbabwean problem and Zimbabwean's must sort it out themselves. Condemnation from SA will do nothing.

Ian Matheson, Cape Town, SA

Was Rhodesia under Ian Smith better for the blacks ? You are all too politically correct and BBC brainwashed to confess the truth.
Wallow in ex-colonial guilt if you must, but not one of you hypocrites will lift a finger to take out Mugabe.

will knight, orange county, california usa

Clearly, Mugabe and his gang have to go; no one denies that. A question: What will follow? Are other Mugabes waiting in the wings to take his place, as so often happens?
There seems to be something very systemic going on here, perhaps a product of culture, one that gives excessive respect to leaders, one that does not honor the idea of the loyal and open opposition, one that does not welcome true diversity of ideas, and one that claims that some people (i. e., "leaders") are not under the basic law of the land. Furthermore, there seems to be cultural misunderstanding concerning the delicate balance of assumptions, world views, structures, and other ingredients that produce wealth. Wealth cannot be distributed unless it is created.

James, Jacksonville, Illinois

Simon from Brunei, get your facts right chap- Magabe was no bulwark against communism that was South Africa. While you are reading up , find out about the activities of the infamous third brigade. They were trained by North Korean officers and NCO's and were responsible for the murder of thousands of Matebele. Perhaps we should have started meddling a long time ago. How would these things be brought to our attention without "foreign journalists".

andrew, cape town,

Even though I was against apartheid, when I came ('back') to England in 1985, I ended up arguing against most of the vehement anti-apartheid folk. They simply didn't understand Africa. They had no idea that a Zulu would usually be far more prepared to work for a british white person, who had beaten them in battle, than for a Xhosa. The whole complexity of the situation is treated in black and white terms (pun intended) by people with simplistic (if good) ideals, often ones Africa is not ready for. If it wasn't for people like Mandela and Tutu, South Africa could have ended up like most of the rest of Africa, with utterly corrupt and incompetent governance. Even now Mbeki has gone some way to removing the checks on corruption.

To expect South Africa to condemn Mugabe is to assume a liberal mindset in Africa that is rare. The liberal elements that do exist from Europeans is often associated with imperialism. Would the average African be better off under 'liberal imperialism' ?

Simon, Surrey,

Amen to David of Grantham!

A Catholic Priest, Edinburgh, Scotland

Mugabe a bukwark against communism?
And red meat is a vegetable I suppose?

Gary, London,

Why must we get rid of Mugabe? Because he's a tyrant, causing death and misery to his people. It's a horrible truth that the western media reports on these tragedies so badly, so often. It seems they have to blow themselves up to get coverage and even then they get negative coverage.

South Africa was always flawed, Nelson Mandela though proclaimed as a saviour was also a terroist, albeit for a "noble" cause. Expecting much from them now that they've slipped back into quasi-dictatorship may asking a little much.

A Good Thought provoking article though.

Chris Jones, Cambridge, Cambridgeshire

I understand Mugabe is Catholic; why doesn't the Church excommunicate him?

David, Grantham,

No one will do anything about Zimbwabe because it would be a tacit admission that colonialism, or "Illegal" independence under Iain Smith might actually have been better for the average citizen.

Brian E, Beaconsfield, England

And how remarkable that the apparent 'saviour of the world' that we now all fall over ourselves to praise, Mandela has been strangely silent too on the evil that is going on in his own back yard. Yet another mere mortal then.

Mugabe is laughing all the way to his hidden Swiss bank accounts while his people suffer. And the West will yet again meekly do nothing as a dictator rapes and pillages his country.

Jay, London,

Why should Zimbabwe be any different from all the other countries in Africa? Power hungry people like Aziz consider Mugabe a role model - so expect South Africa to mirror Zimbabwe in the future. Your mate is turning into a monster before your very eyes!!

Dennis, Johannesburg, South Africa.

Sir/Madam:
In many countries, Mugabe's have replaced the earlier colonial rulers. Many are worse than earlier colonial rulers. Summersaults of Azizs' depending upon the circumstances are also common.

Despotic and corrupt rulers rule ruthlessly for a long time depending upon the past histories.

Here, major powers are also responsible, They just wink and tolerate such rulers if they are favorable to them. Pakistani rulers are one example!
Regards,

Krishna R. Kumar, Udupi, India

It is piquant (though of course also sad) to see the belated realisation of pocket revolutionaries and idealists that their dreams are but dust, and that all the age-old wisdom of the 'reactionaries' is still true today. No matter how many times schoolchildren are made to repeat slogans against 'racism' we shall still find that blood is thicker than politically correct hot air. Africans will support Africans against criticism from non-Africans, particularly when they are all too conscious that the sins of Mugabe are not unknown elsewhere in Africa.

Bernard, Norwich, UK

It is ironic that you decry someone else about not speaking up about Mugabe's misdeeds.
You have supported Mugabe and other would be dictators in the past, so maybe you should look at yourself and what you have brought about in Africa, and admit you supported the wrong people. Mandela is a hero, but Mbeki is rather less, and Zuma even less.
Dictators all over the world need to be brought to attention by the international community through personal sanctions. They only listen when they are hurt personally.

Bill, Bristol, UK

Having a dig at Brian Haw is irrevelevant. He's too busy protesting another massive foreign policy cock-up - but that's a dodgy subject, isn't it? David Aaronovitch, what happened to YOU?

Alexander Hay, Winchester,,

Simon

You'll be crying out for foreign aid, help and assistance when your oil runs out.

Pete, Cov,

Yes, back in the good old days David, when young radicals like you would change the world - and here we are. Take a bow, congratulations! Please, please, come out from behind the Bush (GW that is) and humbly accept the honour you deserve.

GB, Hong Kong,

So David, those Muslims who blow themselves up all over the world are "desperate"? Desperate about what? Oil rich countries perhaps...

Josh, Tel-Aviv, Israel

If you are surprised by Aziz Pahad's silence on Zimbabwe, that is only because you never bothered to establish what he was fighting FOR. In their 1962 programme -- which essentially became the ANC's own -- the SACP expressed their intention, once power had been seized, of maintaining "a vigorous and vigilant dictatorship ... by the people against the former dominating arid exploiting classes." It was only as Communism collapsed that the ANC/SACP came around to a partial (but as you can see, incomplete) acceptance of liberal democracy.

James, Johannesburg, South Africa

Hey Dave,

How do you think the war is going?

Rudolph, aberdeen, Scotland

David,
It may not be what you expected back in '76, but some of us did - and I take no pleasure from that. Further, the appalling truth is that getting rid of Mugabe will just create a job vacancy. What's the betting that if Mr. Tsvangirai gets his feet under the table, he won't be pulling the same stunts. I hate to say it, but order in Zimbabwe will not be created from within and can only be imposed from outside (and I mean outside Africa). That of course is unacceptable, but principle can be a terrible thing when others die like flies to pay for it.

Ken Leyland, Liverpool, U.K.

Because Simon, human life has meaning whereas national boundaries are a fiction dreamed up by long ago tribes, colonial movements, wars and dislocation.

Mugabe no longer speaks for his country, nor does he act as a responsible ruler should, i.e. one who protects and nutures his people.

Once he was a saviour, now he's a thug.

Warren Blore, Sydney, Australia

This is dangerous to suggest or imply that problems are solved by violence and not by peaceful means ("they don't blow themselves up..."). World is already bleeding too much with the violence, kindly don't encourage it even in the most subtle way. I also bet if Zimbabweans go on that route there would be people like you who would be condemning this sort of actions. Have patiens and one day good will prevail on bad with the least possible violence.

Gulfam Zahoor, Lahore, Pakistan

Contrast Zimbabwe, Darfur and other African countries with arab muslim ones, like Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran. One seems to accept the inevitable and almost welcomes early death. The others continue to fight and fight and are resigned to no peace.
We see the pictures of those who suffer. We feel utter helplessness. I just shiver and turn my mind to more hopeful subjects.
I am 63 and I really had hoped that the world would be a better place now than it is. I really thought my generation would change the world.
How wrong I was!

John, Florianopolis, Brazil

why must we get rid of Mugabe? He was a saviour of his country and a bulwark against coimmunism.

Why don't foreign countries and foreign journalists stop meddling in another country's affairs?

simon, bandar seri begawan, brunei

Oh so well said David - but Zimbabweans shouldn't have to die, silent or otherwise! The silence of the international community, via the UN, is deafening and disgusting. We should all be ashamed at letting our friends in Zimbabwe down so badly. It's so hard to be noisy when so brutally oppressed and starved. Have we learned nothing from ethnic cleansing and tyranny elsewhere?

Sue Shaw, Morpeth, UK

"One leader could only send a message, however: the other Rhodesian and leader of Zanu, Robert Mugabe. We all applauded, and imagined the day when whites no longer held the whip-hand over the blacks."

And then: "Aziz, what do you have to say to the beaten dissidents of Harare and Bulawayo?"

If I were Aziz, I'd say, "You bloody hypocrite, Aaronovitch". But that's just me.

John Blackley, Austin, TX, USA