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From The Times

July 15, 2008

We are all stabbing blindly at knife crime

Instant experts rush to offer solutions to the latest moral panic. The truth is no one really knows what is happening

David Aaronovitch

I awoke to an absurd discussion on the radio yesterday morning. Some chap from a northwestern accident and emergency ward was reacting to what he and many others believed were government plans to ferry young knife carriers around casualty departments as he and his colleagues attempted to patch up the victims of stabbings.

The doctor's rather obvious objection that neither the suturing medics nor the suffering patients would appreciate such a distraction, wasn't diminished by the fact that no one in government was actually suggesting any such thing.

No, ministers' ambitions were limited to having visits to the wards. Even so, the doctor summoned up an unexpected expertise to say that even such less dramatic mechanisms for confronting young people with the consequences of crime had been shown (in the US, of course) not to work.

I have no idea how he knew this, but when it comes to the prevailing moral panic, we are all experts now. Top experts, naturally, are the Government, about to unveil (or unleash?) their latest youth crime action plan.

Only yards behind are the other political parties, each with their own very definite views on what ought and what ought not to be done about knife crime, and the newspapers, whose certainty concerning remedies is matched only by their total confusion as to what the problem actually is.

Is it gangs? Is it just young men and boys? Is it just knives, or guns too? Is it all attacks with bladed instruments? Is the incidence rising or falling? Is it younger victims and perpetrators that are the problem here?

If so, what are the figures, once we subtract older people, purely domestic violence and unusual (if horrific) killings, such as that of the two French students in South London? I want to remind readers of the total pointlessness of including, for instance, the murder of a husband by his wife's brother in a statistic that is then used to indicate the problem of casual street crime.

And if people think that they know what is going on, perhaps they could explain to me why knife crime was almost static in London between the second half of 2007 and the first half of 2008, had increased by nearly 20 per cent in Northumbria, but had halved in Derbyshire.

Had there been a sudden outbreak of divorceless marriage in Derby round about 1992? Or a fashionable run on shivs in Newcastle this January? And what differences in parenting, imprisonment, policing, schooling or social conditions help us to understand why knife crime levels in Scotland are 3.5 times higher than in England or Wales?

I am not saying that nothing is happening. I am saying that in most discussion of this subject - and particularly in those involving politicians and the media - there is darkness rather than light.

That this is a fully-fledged moral panic is evident when the father of the recently murdered Jimmy Mizen speaks about couples who have told him that they were thinking of not having children at all because they fear their children being murdered.

This - statistically, at any rate - is half as sensible as staying childless because of a fear of filial suicide. As far as we can tell, violent crime, which had climbed for three decades, has now fallen by something like 40 per cent since 1995, and the proportion of that involving knives has not changed much. True, one problem with these statistics is that they don't include the under-16s. They will soon, and that at least we can all agree about.

So, for this problem that - in so far as we can quantify it - isn't much worse than it was, and is carried out for reasons we don't fully understand, we now have a plethora of instant solutions. Much of this involves prison, not just for knife wielders, but for that very different category, knife carriers.

With Gordon Brown knife carriers get jail or “community payback”, with David Cameron they can “expect” a spell in the slammer. Meanwhile, for the Liberal Democrats, Chris Huhne derides the Government for being in past denial about knife crime, but may care to explain why, in their January 2007 document Together We Can Cut Crime the un-denying Lib Dems failed to mention the word “knife” or “knives” on a single occasion.

Are knives so epiphenomenal, that they have taken just 18 months to become a big social problem? “Prison is the only place for knife carriers,” opines The Daily Telegraph, adding - without an iota of supporting evidence - that “the ‘shock' of a spell in prison, even of short duration, will be far more potent deterrent than one of Miss Smith's hospital visits”.

That depends, doesn't it, on why you are carrying the knife in the first place, something that we still don't know. No, I'm sorry, of course we do. It's the Daily Mail's “breakdown of the family and education system”. Or, as David Cameron put it, too many young people “do not recognise a sense of right or wrong”.

And the evidence for this contention is what, precisely? Of all the things that I imagine I observe about young people today, a failure to discuss moral or ethical values is the least characteristic.

We have been here before. Guns last year, flick knives in 1958, razor gangs in 1938, skinhead aggro in 1970 (when steel-capped boots were the weapon), mods and rockers in 1964, young men and boys stabbed or shot or stomped by other young men outside pubs, clubs, dancehalls and stadiums.

In many cases it was just luck that separated the victim from the perpetrator. That point was poignantly made by Alice Miles in these pages recently.

I can't help wondering whether what may be behind any recent real rise in knife crimes, is precisely the recent unreal moral panic over knives. Everyone hears that everyone else is carrying, so they carry too; and if you buy a ticket for the fatal lottery sometimes you win.

It is striking, of course, that almost all those involved in casual knife fatalities are young males. In The Times yesterday there was a story about young girls self-harming, suggesting an unpleasant symmetry - the brothers stab others, the sisters stab themselves. But we start, don't we, with offended masculinity, fear and peer pressure, and work from there?

We might look at actually giving the recent £3 million anti-knife advertising campaign some time to work, at developing non-prison forms of deterrence, at televising court procedures in cases of violence, at simultaneously diminishing the amount of violence-as-entertainment on television and in cinemas, at outlawing violence against children, at reinstituting civility in the public sphere, starting with ourselves. Anything but the present pathetic apology for a national discussion.

Knife crime, and so much other unacceptable behaviour, is, I would suggest, the refuge of uneducated, unintelligent people. Such people have little or no chance of ever being part of mainstream society. Whilst not absolving them of blame, they have been failed by the dire education system we have.

Lewis Blight, Nottingham, UK

Why do people keep trying to ban instruments? Guns, knives, baseball bats do not kill people. Punish the people, not the weapons. If someone is convicted of a violent crime, arrest him if he is carrying a weapon. Let law abiding people have the means to protect themselves.

Jerry, orlando, fl, USA

Knives?! Hahahaha! You guys crack me up. Come spend some time in L.A. . . .

Matt, Los Angeles, USA

more police, local political involvement, teaching respect, responsible parenting: they will help. but I don't care whether knife crime is up or down. that anyone who commits a violent crime should be severely punished is a matter of principle. prison should not be a luxury crime seminar.

jem, london, uk

those who demand "respect" are usually bullies with no self-respect. real men don't need a knife to fight. indeed, real men don't need to fight, unless it is for good or to protect the weak. as a society, we should not tolerate bullies. do get involved. don't be intimidated; there's more of us.

jem, london, uk

Parents are not disciplining and bringing up their children properly. Behind every murderer is a Parent who has failed. We are reaping the violence whirlwind now

PETER ROSS, LONDON, UK

Its only now become a problem because its happening in London.
Its always been a problem everywhere else.
Happy days, you've joined the real world!

Peter Oldham, Rochdale, England

I've often heard that the devil is in the detail. Nice to read some, er, sharp observations on this topic.

P.J, West Vlaanderen, Belgium

When I grew up in Canada people would drive around with unlocked rifles in their trucks & we kids would carry pocket knives. Violent assaults (if memory serves) were not a great concern. So either:

a) British society is very seriously flawed & crime is out of control or
b) Hysterics run the media

Stephen, Matlock, UK

National service by any other name, Children taught respect from an early age then if they reach school leaving age with no qualifications, 3 years of intensive training or apprentiship, dole to pay for this, repayable if they flunk it better though if they qualify as plumber,teacher etc!

Dave Farmer, Broxbourne, England

There are no easy answers or quick fixes to this problem, apart from maybe more strategic use of police resources in knife crime hot spots. Politicians from all parties need to work together on this and they need to start now.

J. Llewellyn, Glastonbury, Somerset

Knives are symbolic of a deeper malaise. The state tried and failed to replace the family, the ties of blood and community broken. Fatherless boys, unvalued and without leadership or discipline turn angry and indolent. For every failed family build a prison cell for these poor benighted boys.

Charles , Epsom, UK

No David, you're wrong - we do know what is happening. No collective act of worship for most children (sorry "school students"; a legal requirement) and no unskilled or semi-skilled jobs for low achievers. Result, anarchy,

monty, bristol,

We are looking at the problems in Britain from the wrong perspective it seems. The problem with Britain strikes me is that everyone seems to jump on bandwagons to easily and become narrow minded.

Britain is a sick society. It does not take much for a typical Brit's blood to boil these days!!!

Rob Shields, Kalamazoo, USA (Ex pat)

When I was a teenager 60 years ago, if one carried a knife one received six stokes of the can, which was followed by up to six days in solitary confinement. This problem largely disappeared. In China today, people with knives can receive the same punishment . Still no problem there. We must learn.

Mike Waller, London, UK

Kids carry knives to gain respect. Some of them are innocents, caught up in a game they don't really know how to play. Others, however, are profoundly damaged and don't react to the idea of hurting others in a predictable way. Both groups can wind up victims. The government ignores the difference.

Severin, London,

I suspect that fourty years of telling young people that they have rights,and no one has a right to tell them what to do,the trouble is they all feel that way,so when one scowls at another he feels his rights are called into question,result aggressive action.

Eddy, Bury St.Edmunds,

Lets get it right from the begining, nothing will be done untill we get a government in who actually wants to do something, and it isnt this one so forget it. For a kick off, they dont even know where to start never mind how to stop it.

peter reddington, leeds, UK

If Scotland's knife crime is 3.5 times worse than in England and Wales, then (adjusting for population size) 7 Scottish teenagers should have been killed so far in 2008. Is this the case? And, if not, why keep dragging Scottish statistics into the argument - rhetorical question, I know why.

Mart, Leeds, England

Yaye for some sense!

Sarah , Belfast,

I do not believe you can put right the current wave of crime other then tough sanctions on the culprits. There should be a back to basics approach to instill respect into the young early. If someone arrives at school leaving age with out the prospect of work they should attend a training extra study

Dave Farmer, Broxbourne, England

Jane Ross "....mandatory jail sentences for carrying a knife".

I've rarely heard a more daft solution. I carry a knife with me every day. As Scott said, it is a tool and not an offensive weapon.

Putting people in jail for for carry a (legal) pen knife would be to the detriment of 'society'.

Zaphod, Chichester, UK

Thatcher said that there is no such thing as society. Maybe she was wrong. Maybe humans need more than low-paying, unchallenging jobs, under-funded education and health, and lifelong financial insecurity. How shocked the elite are when people they treat like animals act like animals.

Miss Dee, Tayside, UK

My husband, a doctor, was doing some DIY last week, picked up his stanley knife instead of his mobile phone, and went out with it in his pocket. Not everyone who carries a knife is a criminal - just as not everyone who carries a rope, crowbar and pair of gloves in their car is "going equipped"...

Lydia, Nottingham, UK

Indeed David, accepting Stanley Cohen’s deviancy amplification spiral there’s nothing to worry about. Let’s do nothing, not even debate knife crime, lest there not be an issue worth discussing at all. Hurrah! Well done.

Rob H, MCR,

A return to what used to work. Punishment and deterent sentences. I dont care if criminals come out un-reformed, as long as they feel punished and detered from going back. Soft sentences send out the message that carrying knives or other crime isn't really that bad. Time is cheap, so make it long.

steve, abergavenny, uk

I wondered how long it would be before the North London chatterers started the whole, "it's just a moral panic" debate.

David, Bristol, Avon

Happened to pass an Army surplus store yesterday and noticed that they had what looked to my untrained eye like flick knives or similar in their display window. Might this be an area for practical reform?

Andrew Chapman, Newcastle upon Tyne, England

It was done in NYC 10 years ago and could be done here. NY is now much safer than London (I speak from observation).

Zero tolerance of all weapons, whether used in the commission of crime or not, wih mandatory custodial sentences actually works. We won't do it because it costs a lot of money.

David Garfield, London, UK

No, not well said. Aaronovitch is an oblique voice for this government.
"Deal with things in a calm and collected way"? Outside a pub on a Saturday night?
Let's have a 5 year review to develop a ten year plan for this problem, if it can be described as a problem. Maybe it's just a social challenge

David, Bromley,

You lose the disclipine of industial work for the lower classes where they can gain money and pride. You create a vacuum. This is what UK has done trading companys as assets rather than instruments of wealth and mass employment. Where there is more work like this - fewer problems I bet. Check it?

John, London, UK

You would have been great on the Titanic, David:-

'Are we really sinking? Who told you we were sinking? Do you know at what rate we are sinking? Can anyone be sure we really hit an iceberg? Did anyone see the collision? Are we really sure there aren't enough lifeboats?'

JL, Liverpool,

Arrest anyone with a knife or gun and put em' on a shuttle flight to Darfur or Afghanistan then shove 'em out over a real war zone...!! Word would soon get around - if you show you mean business - and in no time gun and knife crime would be rarer than rocking-horse poo...!!!

John Jay, Walton on Thames, UK

Sadly the young men who carry knives for 'protection' or just sheer bravado don't stay calm and collected when they feel threatened! For some just a 'look' is a threat. Carry a knife, chances are you'll use a knife!
We need self control, boundaries and respect - gosh, a return to old fashioned ways

Jill , Norfolk, UK

Before we guess the solution we need to define the problem. Science is the most accurate predictor. Study the background of the previous 300 offenders. Statistically show common background as predicter of knife crime and develop remedies to apply to the community before they're caught carrying

Jamie McCulloch, London, UK

The current knife crime pattern may be a signal that the nature of crime and hence the nature of morality of which it is a reflection is both developing and changing.

Bill Abbott, Liverpool, England

I wish the phrase 'moral panic' had never been invented. It is too often a lazy excuse for doing nothing.

Frank Upton, Solihull,

The chattering classes' day is done. The politicised police is not part of the solution. The government has abandoned us, and is counting the days to a fat pension in a protected enclave. We're on our own now. East Glasgow is the future. Do what Zanulabor ministers do: wear a stab vest.

Jamal Akhbar, Edinburg,

The way every commentator avoids the elephant in the room would be funny if this werent my country. First we are told it could take 30 years to solve the terror theat, and now 20 years to solve youth crime..wake up britain, these problems are never going away. We have harsh realities to face.

phil marshall, lincoln, england

Labour has turned Britian into America, as Scott, Durham, NC, USA said "You reap the society you sow".

Keith Walker, Newcastle, England

As a matter of fact, will the Anti-Knife advertising and such moral policing campaigns work?I am doubtful about it.The best possible way to curb voilence, which is indeed a bit stringent and harsh measure, is to make the "long arm of the law" much longer with saber toothing to catch up the criminals

sandy, New Delhi, India

We do know whats really happening. It happens whereever you get large numbers of new comers from different social backgrounds, such as New York in the 50s and 60s, Chicago in the 20s and 30. Its the spill over when different tribes try to occupy the same space. But to speaks its name is racist.

JohnW, Oldham,

Well, what do you expect to happen when the government will prosecute parents for attempting to discipline their kids. Spank them and go to jail. Speak harshly to a child and when a "social worker" finds out about it, the child will be removed from the family.

You reap the society you sow.

Scott, Durham, NC, USA

"...mandatory jail sentences for carrying a knife,...."

That's the second silliest comment I've read yet. A knife is simply a tool, like a screwdriver or a spanner. A knife won't injure anyone on its own. It takes HUMAN INTENT. Recognize the problem!

Social feel-good policies lead to this morass.

Scott, Durham, NC, USA

When I went to Every street school Ancoats during the war the catholic boys came to throw stones at us. No one stabbed or murdered. All good friends after school. I visited many night clubs 50s60s2 years NS 35 years factory walked round Soho at night.No one stabbed or murdered. In 70s people mugged

ged , manchester,

The first priority is to protect the public mandatory jail sentences for carrying a knife, life for murder, under 18's parents prosecuted for failing to control their feral offspring.

Old fashioned discipline in the home is needed, 40 years ago kids were raised differently, it worked!

Jane Ross, Surrey, UK

Well said. The problem with the criminal justice system in the UK currently is that the government panders to the papers and public opinion rather than trying to look solutions that work. When we stop with soundbite politcs we'll all be better off. The general public are not the experts to follow.

Simon, London,

Perhaps it's wrong to focus so much on knife crime alone (this year). However, there is a long standing problem. Why is the assault rate so much higher than in other developed countries? What's causing this?

We need a policy that's "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime".

Sounds familiar?

Alex, Tunbridge Wells,

A tempered voice on the problem and one that reminds us to look at the facts and deal with things in a calm and collected way.

Thanks

Sarah Newton, Northampton,

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David Aaronovitch is a writer, broadcaster and commentator on international politics and the media. He writes for The Times Comment page on Tuesdays. He has previously written for The Guardian, The Observer and The Independent, winning numerous accolades, including Columnist of the Year 2003 and the 2001 Orwell prize for journalism. He has appeared on the satirical TV current affairs programme Have I Got News For You and made radio broadcasts on historical topics

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Fighting Fit

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I am British first, South African second and American third

We are all stabbing blindly at knife crime

Instant experts rush to offer solutions to the latest moral panic. The truth is no one really knows what is happening