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From The Times
April 17, 2007
Only the names change. And the numbers
The scale of the Virginia incident is, sadly, all that distinguishes it
By the desensitising standards of routine American gun violence, yesterday’s shootings at Virginia Tech university were shocking only in their scale. Over more than 20 years, Americans have got grimly used to a ritual that plays out on the cable news every few months. The initial news is sketchy, reports of shots fired at a campus or in a schoolyard. Then, the first confused images of students running terrified from classrooms, black-clothed Swat teams gingerly pressing into doorways; the press conference in which some dazed school principal or university president mutters the first incomplete details, with casualty estimates and emergency phone numbers for worried relatives to call.
Finally, as the horror gradually dawns in its fullness, someone finds some photograph of the gunman, pulled from a high-school yearbook or holiday. Sometimes he is a fresh-faced, American-as-apple-pie-looking young man who friends say would never harm an insect. Other times, in that first image, the brooding face is already a sad window into a soul that is well on the way to its ultimate destination of murderous and suicidal mayhem.
It’s so familiar you could write the script yourself. Only the names change — Jonesboro, Columbine, Lancaster County and now Virginia Tech. And the numbers.
Yesterday’s death toll of more than 30 handed Virginia Tech, a proud college with a strong academic record and a famous sporting pedigree, the unwanted title of worst shooting in US history. There is something slightly unsettling about the way news reporters seize on these landmarks with the kind of statistical excitement with which you would announce a new sporting record. You can’t blame them. It is the only thing that really distinguishes one of these events from another in the public’s mind.
Multimedia
And the truth is that only an optimist would imagine Virginia Tech will hold the new record for very long. Surely in a year or two the news networks will be replaying the same footage from another college, with only the numbers different.
Perhaps of all the elements of American exceptionalism – those factors, positive or negative, that make the US such a different country, politically, socially, culturally, from the rest of the civilised world – it is the gun culture that foreigners find so hard to understand.
The country’s religiosity, so at odds with the rest of the developed world these days; its economic system which seems to tolerate vast disparities of income; even all those strange sports Americans enjoy – all of these can at least be understood by the rest of us, even if not shared.
But why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year, when presumably, tougher restrictions, such as those in force in European countries, could at least reduce the number?
The truth is, not all Americans do oppose such measures. The US of course, is a vast, federal nation, with different laws and cultures in different states. In Virginia, scene of yesterday’s shootings, they passed a law a few years ago that did indeed restrict gun purchases – to a maximum of one per week. In the neighbouring District of Columbia, on the other hand, the law bans the possession of all guns.
DC’s draconian measure highlights one reason tighter gun control is difficult in the US. The federal courts recently ruled that the ban violates Americans’ right to bear arms, as protected by the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
But the constitutional question is not, in fact, settled. The final legal status of gun control rests at least in part on the composition of the Supreme Court and can, and has, changed, over the years.
Those on the Left like to think that the reason guns remain so available lies with the famed power of the National Rifle Association, the body that promotes the interest of gun owners. The NRA is deemed to be so influential that it can force members of congress or state representatives to support permissive gun laws, for fear of losing the association’s useful financial support at election time.
But this is overblown. The NRA is certainly a powerful body but cannot on its own outweigh the views of millions of ordinary Americans.
The simple truth is that Americans themselves remain unwilling to take drastic measures to restrict gun availability. This is rooted deep in the American belief in individual freedom and a powerful suspicion of government. Americans are deeply leery of efforts by government to restrict the freedom to defend themselves. A sizeable minority, perhaps a majority, believe the risk that criminals will perpetrate events such as yesterday’s is a painful but necessary price to pay to protect that freedom.
The sheer scale of the carnage yesterday may after all make the Blacksburg killings truly unique in American history. That will doubtless lead to more self-examination and perhaps calls for new restrictions on firearms. But it won’t change America’s deep-rooted and sometimes lethal commitment to its own freedoms.
What has not been mentioned is that the School Board at VT was sucessful at getting legislation passed that prohibited students from carrying legally licensed handguns on campus just one year BEFORE this shooting.
Basically what they did, and what the Media seems to be conveniently ignoring, is remove the Student's ability to protect themselves.
Who did this Law stop? Certainly not this deranged shooter.
Then we have legislators like Carolyn McCarthy who admits in an interview that she doesn't know what a barrel shroud is or what it's used for... though it's specifically mentioned in the ban legislation SHE WROTE!
So please, I know all you folks from other "more civilized" countries mean well but if you're going to report on something at least be fair and state ALL the facts, not just the ones you agree with.
I'd also suggest a certain poster from Toronto get out of the house more often because even I as a New York resident can obtain a pistol permit for Canada.
Rich Himes, North Rockland, New York
The answer is simple and very unpleasant.
Americans live in private fear of black communities where violent crime rates are generally on the order of 8 to 10 times those typically quoted for the nation.
While violent crime rates in a place like Maine are comparable to Canadian rates, those in Atlanta or Detroit or Washington DC more closely resemble South Africa's.
The same fear drives everything from 'gated communities' to suburban women driving tank-like SUVs to give them a sense of security driving into the city.
This is nothing new in American society. The slaveholders of Virginia lived in mortal fear of slave revolts, often sleeping with guns or knives at their bed.
Of course, the net effect of this fear is to keep the guns plentiful for those who do the shooting.
John Chuckman, Toronto, Canada
"Never give up your guns US citizens. They are your last defence against tyranny." This does however, beg the question, "So why aren't you guys manning the barricades?" Because tyranny has come to the United States. And given time, doubtless Authority will contrive to stage more school shootings thus to justify the final removal of firearms, even from US society.
Andrew Milner, Yokohama, Kanagawa
I'LL TRY TO ANSWER.......
Apart from the English language, The UK and the USA share many values, customs, traditions, laws and ideals in common, due to the strong historic links between the two countries.
However, naturally, the USA has developed its own strong customs and identities, independent of British influence.
Individual ownership of firearms is a custom that goes back
to BEFORE the establishment of THE USA...to a time when
each man had to have a gun for hunting and protection in a vast and often hostile and lawless land. When the indians, the outlaws and the bears came calling, and the nearest lawman was 500 miles away.."who you gonna call?"
Distances are still vast in the USA, and the police are not always walking up and down outside your home, apartment building or isolated ranch. The concept of the individual having to be PRIMARILY responsible for his own security has never died....and the right to keep and bear arms is both guaranteed and keenly guarded.
Garth Rex, Glendale Heights, USA
I agree with the article.
If you look at the statistics, it shows that countries where there is strict gun control tend to have much lower gun crime rates. Britain has strict gun control, Canada has loose gun control and the USA has no federal gun control:
Britain has 12 times less murders involving firearms per capita than America and 4 times less than Canada. Murders in general - Britain has ... off the top of my head ... about a quarter of America's murders per capita and Canada has about a third of America's murders per capita. In burglaries, assaults, rapes and so forth, there's no real correlation.
The presence of a gun can act as a deterent, but unless everyone has a gun and is educated to use it responsibly, this isn't very effective. This is why Switzerland has very little gun crime whereas the states in the USA with more gun control have a lot of gun crime. Everyone in Switzerland has a gun and uses it responsibly, someone in Virginia could just get a gun from Texas
Duncan Moore, Warwickshire,
For the presence of a comma, clarity was denied.
Following the academic debates on the interpretation of the 2nd amendment of the US constitution, one realizes the controversy boils down to the significance of the comma before the phase "the right of the people to keep...". Where, oh where, are the experts on 18th century punctuation, (paleopunctuationist?)?
Virginia Tech and, by extension, a lot of killings-by-gun would not have happened if a zeal to enforce was on par with the zeal to prohibit.
Instead of calling for new controls, which would depend on the old enforcement, or lack thereof, we should be screaming, shouting, and voting to ensure enforcement of existing laws, rules, standards and limits.
DanO, Mt. Vernon, USA
Even if gun control laws worked, they would still be grossly unconstitutional.
The facts, however, suggest that gun control does not work.
Case in point: Crime statistics of murder and violence in the US have been steadily decreasing since the widespread passage of concealed carry laws in over 30 states. Anti-gun critics warned that blood would run in the streets after concealed carry laws allowed almost any ordinary citizen to pack a handgun with an easily obtained legal permit. The opposite happened. Common sense would confirm the idea that muggings, carjackings, armed robberies, and so on might decrease if criminals seriously had to ponder whether or not their next victim might be armed.
Incidentally, Washington DC, cited above for its very strict gun laws, consistently ranks in the Top 25 most dangerous US cities, ordered by violent crime statistics.
Kevin Tuma, Hillsboro, TX
If gun control works, why didnt the gun control already in place fail the students of VTech?
erika, Minneapolis, US/MN
Being what many would term as a youth, I suppose that I am in quite a good postion to comment on this. Admittedly, I am white / erring towards middle class to my shame / British / villaage-dweller, so the most experience of gun crime that I have is rabbit-shooters that I hear in the mornings.
But a rural idyll it ain't - a boy from our school was killed last year by a rival gang less than ten miles away. By gun or knife I can’t remember, I’m not sure if I wish to, but my point is that there is a culture of violence spreading across the world, and we
are the genration which is to inherit the mess that you leave it in. He who has the youth has the future, and if American laws allow their youth to be slaughtered, those bright young people, mother's sons, father's daughters who are just a few years older than me and my friends, I ask all those in favour of gun ownership: what hope is there?
Hannah, Wellingborough, Northampton
(continued) I am not saying ban guns, because the people who will use them to kill people probably aren't worried about buying them 'under-ground'.
What I am saying is this: guns have to be harder to purchase if such massacres are to be stopped. It is of very little use checking someone after they have bought the weapon. Were I of dubious mentality, I could have killed someone by the time you've spotted I'm a bit odd.
you cannot break this cycle of violence by adding more violence, ie giving everyone guns. The only way that it can be halted is by drastic policy overhaul, reaching in and snapping the circle.
Stop it with a snap, not a shot, before more lives are lost.
Hannah, Wellingborough, Northampton
The legality of US gun ownership stems from one the founding principles of this country and that is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. We, as Americans, would rather have the freedom to choose whether or not we want to own/carry firearms because we are willing (or not) to undertake the personal responsibility of owning that weapon.
Personal responsibility is inherent in the freedom and liberty that our country fought for and was created to protect. We'd rather take responsibility for controlling our own actions instead of relying on our government to pass laws to control us because we are inherently distrustful of government. The price of liberty and freedom is that occasionally people abuse that to cause harm to others... but we should not limit the freedom of all to protect ourselves from the few.
Chris, Atlanta, GA, USA
It is interesting noting the number of Americans that use WW1, WW2 and the more recntt Balkan wars as a justification for carrying guns in the USA. Not only are the two issues not related, they are totally irrelevant, as the greatest standoff, causing greatest fear in Europe was probably the nuclear standoff and the arms race between the USA and Russia. For all of the period of the cold was it was Europe that was in the front line. The USA will never be invaded, as Mexico and Canada will never have the forces to do it. And as for the US enforcing peace in Europe........what a laugh, don't forget that various US leaders have endorsed the IRA and fundraising in support of terrorist activities in Northern Ireland and the UK mainland went on for many years.
David Leslie, Perth, Scotland
I've never seen how anyone can endorse or support a law, or society, which allows firearms and bullets to be bought legally in an everyday supermarket.
Ian, London,
Even if gun crime has increased in the UK since the total ban in 1997, in 2005/6, the number of people killed by firearms was 50, which represents 0.09 people per 100,000, compared to roughly 2.9 people per 100,000 in the US. I think that shows the real difference.
Stephen, Paris, France
I am not a gun owner and have no intention of becoming one. However, I must say, the yattering by europeans about violence in America is laughable. Any rational examination of the subject will reveal that viewed over the last 100 years, europe has been by far the most violent part of the planet. Now, I'm sure you will say that this has all changed since WWII. The reality is, that America enforcing a peace on europe has changed things. But, the reality of new peaceful europe was shattered by the quarter million dead in the former Yugoslavia, a travesty ended not by europeans but, once again by the U.S. for europeans.
WILLIAM LANGEMAN, Tucson, Arizona
America really is a vast country with many different areas. The huge and vast number of gun deaths are suicides and young men in the inner cities defending their drug turf.
This is a gun owning country, so is it any wonder that we kill ourselves with the handiest and surest way available? Would our suicide rate be lower if we weren't a gun owning society? Since we're about mid-pack with other western countries, the answer would seem to be no.
As for the inner city drug trade, poor people are doing the rational thing and dealing drugs to make money. Since this trade is illegal, they can't go to the police if they are threatened or robbed. They use a firearm to defend their businesses. So, how do we drive down the firearm's murder rate? Take the profit motive out of narcotics by legalizing them.
Pete, Ridgecrest, CA
To truly gain perspective on gun ownership in the US, one must understand why so many American's defend their right to own a gun.
I am NOT a gun owner; in fact, I find them to be primal instruments that produce barbaric outcomes.
However, as an American, I defend the citizen’s right to bear arms. Am I in no less danger of a knife wielding killer than if he/she carried a gun? Obviously, the concern abroad is reflected in the scale of the dead... well over 30. However, I like most Americans see this as an issue of local/state government and Virginia Tech's failure to not only protect, but respond to this incident.
I do not favor assault weapons or hand guns that can carry 17-20 bullets at a time. However, rooted in our independent nature is the right to defend oneself from criminals and/or government.
The author of this original opinion piece was spot-on in his term exceptionalism. We are an exception here in America, proudly so in fact. We must do better though indeed.
Kristopher Wiggs, Hughson, CA, USA
Obviously Charles Norris is a bit confused. I don't think that the reason that the US government hasn't killed millions of Americans is because of the Constitution, after all, there has been no state killing in Western Europe (bar WW2) since the French Revolution (a bit pre-wild west). The banning of private gun ownership ppost Dunblane has not made any difference, we weren't allowed to carry guns in our pockets or keep assault rifles etc in our houses at any stage in the proceedings. The only paradox is amongst the US citizens that feel they have the right to kill other US citizens, by accident or design, because of the corrupted 2nd amendment to the US Constitution.
David Leslie, Perth, Scotland
The Second Amendment in the US Bill of Rights is there to prevent democide. That's when a nation begins to murder its own citizens. The USA has not killed hundreds of millions of people in North America despite its liberal gun laws. Europe and Asia cannot make the same claim.
Furthermore, since the UK has outlawed the private ownership of guns, has not the incidence of gun crime increased? This paradox is not lost on those Americans who favor that any citizen in good standing, has the right to be armed.
Charles Norris, Los Angeles, California, USA
UM Kasper let me get this straight - you somehow think that because europe has had two world wars and separate countries within europe have suffered at the hands of their militia we should then shut up and close our eyes to the horrors in America? the key term here is progress - we had two world wars more than 50 years ago and the last of the British empire was dissolved 50 yrs ago, we are attempting to move forward - we had two world wars and two were enough, how many more shootings and deaths will it take for America to start banning guns? Eventually America solves its problems you say - sorry HOW? exactly are you solving the school shootings?? you are not even thinking logically about your argument you are so determined to rebut what the article is saying. The problem here is that your problem can be easily stopped. If 2/3 of the state opened their eyes and looked at the horrors they would agree to a change in the constitution and carrying a gun would no longer be a right
Victoria Princewill, London, England
Harald Kasper, if memory serves the USA didn't enter either of the World Wars until years after they had started, and then only because of direct attacks, you were all sitting around on your comfortable fat asses for most of the time. More US citizens lost their lives during the American Civil War than at any time since. Remember Vietnam. The UN (note UN) forces hands were ties due to UN resolutions, sponsored by the USA, and couldn't do anything. I'm not sure where Rwanda crept in, that's in Africa, but remember Somalia and 'Black Hawk Down' also in Africa. The thing is, most Europeans don't wander around with guns in our pockets, therefore the amount of people killed by guns in Europe is far lower, per population, than the USA. Stop hiding behind the half of the US constitution that you like, whilst ignoring the half you don't like. And DON't USE BLOCK CAPITALS, IT ISN'T POLITE.
David Leslie, Perth, Scotland
I am always amazed when the Euros lecture and lament about America's propensity towards violence. Forget about the 100 or so million slaughtered in Europe during the last two world wars. And disregard the collective Euro rape and plunder of thrid world nations during the colonization era. And forget about not even having enough consensus to stop genocide in Kosovo and Bosnia - not to mention sitting on your fat and comfotable asses while nearly a million Rwnadans were slaughterd - YOU DON"T HAVE THE RIGHT TO LECTURE US ON ANYTHING!
America has its' problems, but eventually we solve them without Europe's help. Too bad Europe can't say the same thing.
Harald Kasper, Herndon, Virginia, USA
they should have to run a check, have a waiting period, and give the gun.
the law in VA is have id, fill form, pay for gun, leave, then they check your form- which in this case (and here is the PC tragedy as noted) raised no alarm that he was poss suicidal/prescribed/stalker.
Kevin, Blacksburg, VA
First of all I'd like to point out that it's a month's waiting period, not a week, that separates gun purchases in the Commonwealth of Virginia.
Second, I would disagree that Americans remain attached to guns from fear of their government primarily, but that incidents such as Blacksburg just feed the fire of fear. I don't know how many people in my home state of Pennsylvania have commented that if the victims of Virginia Tech themselves were armed then they would have been able to defend themselves-so the gun culture, grounded in fear, just gets perpetuated.
On a sidenote, the US Constitution's Second Amendment does guarantee the right to bear arms "for the keeping of a well regulated militia." The original intent was to allow citizens to protect themselves from the government if need be, but they didn't envision Americans styling themselves as vigilantes as I think they do today. Unfortunately it is difficult to escape one's own fear, and enact much stricter gun regulations.
Amanda Gilmore, Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania, USA
Until this incident, the most deadly school shooting occurred in Erfurt Germany, a country with pervasive gun control and never labeled a "gun culture".
Tim McVeigh murdered 168 people with a fertilizer bomb. The London bombers murdered 52 and wounded 700 with common chemicals. 3000 Americans were murdered by terrorists armed with box cutters. If mass murder is in the heart, the tool is available.
There are roughly 70+ million law abiding firearms owners in the U.S. who are decent people from every walk of life. I defy the condescending Euros here to come up with a "gun culture" demographic that is not some shallow stereotype you got from TV, or your politicos.
Numerous red flags were missed, which could have stopped this atrocity. Among them, a judge mishandled a court-ordered mental hospitalization, which would have automatically shown up on the Federal Insta-Check, blocking Cho's purchase of the handguns. But ultimately, the blame and responsibility rests with one person.
Peter McMullen, Reno, Nevada, USA
I am an American who came over here 41 years ago, not with the intention of living here: it just happened to turn out that way. On a visit back home, I asked my mother whom did we know who owned a gun. My mother could name one man with certainty: I think she excluded men who hunt for sport. Personally, I felt I knew no one: maybe that was because of the milieu in which I grew up. But I grew up in the "safe" suburbs, however even as a teen ager I was aware that they were not so safe. Bored people need something to do: in Northern New Hampshire they shoot the Stop signs! So maybe I knew more Americans who owned guns than I thought i did!
Carlyle Braden, Croydon, U.K.
BBC News 2002 - Violent crime in England and Wales has risen 14%, and handgun crime in the UK rose by 40% in the 2 years after the 1997 gun ban passed
USA Today 2002 - "Since Australias 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24%, kidnappings by 43%
March 2005 - The Chief Constable of Nottingshire said his force was overwhelmed with violent crime, and "could no longer cope".
April 2007 - The mayor of Nagasaki is murdered with a handgun.
Good luck to the countries that have imposed draconian gun laws and watered down sentences for convicted criminals. You have relegated your collective citizenry to permanent victim status. The criminally inclined love you for it.
Karl Holfeld, Hana, Hawaii, US
most anti-gun people do not think about two basic facts about gunowners and guns,One there are several million legal gunowners in this country . A vast number of these people would just flat refuse to conform to any law that would take their guns,it could very easily cause a civil war,Remember the very old saying about they will take my gun when they pry my cold dead fingers from around it,,That saying is very true to millions of Americans,We dont have enough jail space to house all the people that would just say NO. ,Two ,,just the shear numbers of guns out in America ,both legal and illegal would make it impossible to collect them all,you would have an underground gun business just like the drug business making the bad guys even richer. Just think what would happen if the only people with guns were the life long robbers and rapist,,no schools , no child, nobody would be safe
garry cross, clinton, ar
Most Americans believe their own movies and try in real life to be like the characters in them, good and bad
Bas, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND UK
I understand the americans not wanting their right to bear arms taken away,it is part of their culture. the N.R.A. say" its people that kill people not guns" Lets move that quote on a little, its bullets that kill people not guns.
Retricting the amount of bullets a person may buy will not stop these slaughters but it may reduce the numbers.
The second amendment will also stay intact.
alan fletcher, birmingham, england
GS Kennedy, Miami. A gun during civil disorder would be useless? Talk to people who protected their homes, businesses and *LIVES* during the Rodney King riots and in the aftermath of Katrina. Your naivete is astonishing.
Peter McMullen, Reno, Nevada, USA
To Geoffrey in Sydney... You believe that Aussie criminals don't sell guns to loonies? How would they know? Cho purchased his 2 handguns from federally licensed, heavily regulated gun dealers, and underwent the Federal FBI NICS background check and a Virginia state background check as well.
My understanding is that there was substancial non-compliance with the Australian gun licensing and surrender, and there is now also a thriving black market in Australia. Even your local gun control groups apparently acknowledge this.
Thinking that a criminal would care, let alone know, whether a buyer is psychotic is naive. Handgun, rifle, even a double barrel shotgun... when you are talking about coldly tracking down and shooting frightened, cowering college kids one at a time, any of these weapons would be as tragically deadly and effective.
Peter McMullen, Reno, Nevada, USA
Scaramanga, London, London: "The killing of 33 people could easily have happened here. In fact it has happened here, remember Hungerford and Dunblane? Don't be so hypocritical."
Even the NRA admit that a million Americans have died within their own country since 1960 because of guns. Add up the stats for the UK during the same period and come to the same per-captia rate before you cry hypocricy.
Guess what, you won't even come close.
John T, Winchester, England
Vic in Burlington. I want to make sure folks are clear on a couple of things regarding registration. In the U.S., while a Federal database is not permitted, each person purchasing a firearm from a licensed dealer must fill out a Federal 4473 form, which the dealer is required to keep on file.
Under Federal Law, a private party transfer, which does not cross state lines, does not require a 4473. However, *any* "interstate" transfer must go through a licensed dealer at the receiving end. The Federal BATF and FBI can track down those forms, so there is in effect, a de-facto registration maintained.
Also, individual states maintain their own regulations. California for example requires that all transfers (with limited exceptions) go through a licensed dealer and be recorded in a state database. In the case of California, this database maintains the make, model and serial number of handguns, along with the name of the purchaser. Long guns are recorded simply as long guns.
Peter McMullen, Reno, Nevada, USA
Many here live in a world of fantasy. The right to bear arms to protect the homeland is long gone. No one is going to invade the US and in a civil disorder today the gun would be useless.
The biggest threat to the general population is not a government domestic or foreign, it's a fellow countryman upholding his 2nd amendment rights!
Oh the irony....
G.S. Kennedy, Miami,
The only difference between Americans and Europeans is that Americans kill each other individually for free. Europeans organize and kill each other while on a State salary.
And, the American death toll is less.
Viet Dinh, San Jose, California
Casey in Washington, your historical "facts" are so completely wrong that your words only help to illuminate your ignorance. World War 2 began September 1st 1939, Pearl Harbor Dec 7 1941, that's roughly two years three months. Britain declared war as a result of Germany invading Poland, it was a declared war but not a war in fact as Britain was in no position to wage war against Germany until nearly a year later, even then limited. The USA prior to entering the war in Europe supplied Britain with as much food, fuel and war materials as we could ship to them.So even though we weren't an active belligerent, we were definitely participating in a meaningful way right from the start. If you are going to attempt to make some corelation between the shooting at Virginia tech by a mentally ill person, and people who support gun ownsership, stick to an analogy that's within your apparently limited capacity to convey your point.
Ian Turner, Austin, Texas
Perhaps a fact check is in order: in Virginia, you can buy up to one gun a month. You have to go through a background check (called an FBI NICS check), and in Virginia, the State Police must also give the go-ahead before the dealer can sell the gun. A crazy person without a record unfortunately can get firearms legally, (but if he could not, there is a black market for them). Nobody wants that, but here, we have a right to self defense. Gun registration is also illegal.
Since Britain is now rid of pistols and semiautomatics you should be free of gun crime. So why is gun crime rising? Why are home invasions so frequent? Why did CBS say Britain's overall violent crime rate is worse (and rising) than in many large US urban centers?
Some 75 lawful guns at Virginia Tech are locked up at the Police station as required by campus rules. We can only wonder if a gun was locked up, which might have made a difference in the hands of a victim in one of those "Gun Free" classrooms.
Vic Au, Burlington, USA/NC
Just down the road from me is the University of Technology Sydney. It is possible to imagine there could be a psychotic student there - perhaps their brain addled by drugs. But where would they get a gun? And don't tell me that the carnage in Virginia could have been done with a knife, I don't believe it. I don't doubt that it is possible to acquire a gun in Sydney but you'd have to have good criminal connections. Crimals don't sell guns to loonies. They just want to get on quietly about their unlawful business. When a few years back a similar tragedy occurred at Port Arthur, the Australian Prime Minister launched a "buy back" of guns. There was a wave of community approval even though an explicit tax was imposed to pay for it. I'm not saying that this awful thing could never happen in Australia - just that I think it much more likely to happen again in America. A country, by the way, that i believe to be the best thing that happened to the modern world.
Geoffrey, Sydney, Australia
It was our "lethal commitment" to our freedoms that led us to give you chaps the boot in the first place. Sorry, but there it is. I don't need anybody telling me I need to just die and get over it should some punk with a weapon of whatever sort threaten my life. I will resist with whatever means necessary, including the firearms I own. I hope that never happens, and I tend to avoid trouble. Sometimes though, trouble finds you.
celticdragon, Greensboro, NC, USA
This maniac was not an American, he was one of many immigrants we allow to live here, including my wife who is from Engand. I went to the Embassy during the visa process, the line for Brits wanting to immigrate to the US was wrapped around the Embassy. I imagine the line of US citizens looking to move to the UK is much smaller. But I cannot be sure, here in America we focus on our news, not the news of the UK. We are so bad, yet everyone wants to live here and reap our benifits. You should focus your attention on your issues. Or if you would like to comment on our news, do it with respect. I have been to England many times to hear nasty comments about the US, yet anyone in the US you talk to loves the UK. I wonder how long that will last with commentaries like this. I do know one thing, as soon as England is in trouble, as every time in the past, we will be there to bail them out once again. You really should respect the ones who save you time after time. god bless the USA and the Uk.
Mike McAuley, Kent Island, , Maryland/ USA
To all who believe that the answer to this problem would be to LOOSEN gun laws ("If only some of the students in VT had guns, this wouldn't have happened"): take a step back and look at your logic. Are you trying to say that the more guns there are, the safer we are? If you think thats true, why don't we make it a "god given right" that all countries are allowed nuclear weapons? More means safer doesnt it? You say that even if there were gun laws, the killer would have found a different weapon and done the same thing. Yes, but it would not have been on the same scale. It would be much more difficult to kill 32 people with a knife. Criminals will always find ways to get firearms, but a gun ban would make it difficult for the average joe to do so. The idea is to ensure that when a normal person simply snaps or "looses it", they will not have the capacity to cause such damage as we have seen through this incident. Until this problem is fixed, incidents like these will continue to happen.
Steve, Markham, Canada
It's amazing how "aghast" Europeans are about gun violence in the U.S. However, when I go to the local gun store most of the popular, high magazine capacity 9mm handguns are:
Beretta (European)
Glock (also European)
Sig (also European)
Heckler and Koch (also European)
Wather (also European)
FN (also European)
So please, while Europeans are "aghast", they're perfectly willing to make a buck (or in this case a "Euro") feeding the violence with its preferred implements. Spare us the sanctimonious criticism and the hypocrisy.
Phil , Yorktown Heights, NY, USA
Why all this talk about gun control, and no one is advocating swimming pool control. In America, death by drowning in swimming pools is 400% greater than death by gun accidents or incidents. How many innocent lifes could have been saved if we had only placed greater restrictions on these killers. No, it is not popular to critisize swimming pool owners...even irrisponsible ones. Pools don't look scary and well.. we like them. It is more fun to go after what we don't understand and more importantly, to join the group-think and be part of something. If we were really concerned about innocent loss of life, we would ban all swimming pools. After this is done, then we can begin to talk about gun control.
Kent, Wylie, TX
The reason for our second amendment is well known. We prize the right to bear arms because at heart we are a culture that teasures its rights to individual liberty. We secured that liberty because an army of farmers had guns with which to use against Redcoats and their German mercenaries. Americans don't trust government. A despot could not take root in the U.S. easily because he would find his army facing a well armed citizenry on every corner. We would fight back. Others can laugh at that notion. I don't care. Our criminal element also would have no problem securing guns. Before you carry on about something that is purely a domestic matter you should look at the statistics on the crime rate in states that allow concealed weopons to be carried. Crime rates fall dramatically. Thugs and governments act differently if they think you might be as well armed as they are. i think this shooting was tragic and i'm sorry it happened but you often pay a price for individual liberty.
Mike Sims, Louisville, kentucky
I am not so sure about Virginia Tech having high academic standards. Why didn't they fail the killer for his substandard assignments?
Emma Haethorne, Ottawa, Can
Right! Scream loudly enough about why guns should be confiscated from law abiding citizens and it becomes unnecessary for the politically correct to explain why a malcontent who sets fire to his dorm room, stalks women, and is feared by many of those who knew him got a pass.
The more the libs excuse anti-social behavior, the of such behavior we get.
Robert Carson, Houston, TX
I can’t believe the hypocrisy from the British criticizing. You band virtually all gun ownership in the late 80’s yet your violent crime rate is igher than ours. Yet, over the same time period, we have made it easier for citizens to obtain concealed carry permits and our crime has decreased. Before you criticize us review the facts. I can easily find articles on the BBC’s web site to support my claims. You can also review crime studies conducted by the UN and by Leiden University in Holland for further information. Before opening you mouth and showing you ignorance, review the studies listed above and review current US gun laws.
Also,
-DC has had a handgun ban in effect since 1976, but this has not stopped the city from being in the top 5 of US cities for murder over the last 30 years.
-Before the Gun Control Act of 1968 firearms were bought and sold through the mail in this country, and there were no age restrictions, but somehow students managed not to kill their classmates.
Rick, Kansas City, MO, USA
What distinguishes the U.S. from Europe is that we're free. That's the American Dream. Not safety. Not security. "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave." We have guns because we are each responsible for our own lives. Don't believe me? If you're ever the victim of a crime, try to sue the police for not protecting you. Good luck with that. We have guns because we have rights that exist independent of any government. We, the people, are the militia. From the Declaration of Independence: "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..." That's what the 2nd Amendment is for. Europe? They spent the 20th century as mass murderers of the defenseless, and are starting the 21st as cowardly pacifists. Either way, not much freedom there.
Bill, Pittsburgh, PA
I have to agree with those people who say it's got nothing to do with guns and everything to do with a desire to kill. Tony Blair edged his way into No10 with the slogan "tough on crime,tough on the causes of crime", but, as many have pointed out there are more people being shot to death on Britains streets than ever before, and those who are not being shot to death are being knifed to death. There are few police on the beat in UK and many say this is the root cause of street violence, whereas the dreadful event in Virginia was an out and out act of terrorism carried out by the equivalant of a suicide bomber, and there is little protection against that kind of atrocity. However, it is noticable that the College heads are already covering their backsides - not a good sign. Forget the Keystone Cops...it's the head of security who won't be sleeping well. 2 hrs! The Iran '15' debacle might just pale into insignificance after this little show of incompetence. Roll on the enquiry.
Harry Gaffney, Riga, Latvia
The far left has long opposed any sane legal gun laws. When ever the NRA has tried to give schools gun safety classes free of charge MRS Brady and her stormtroopers arrive to deny it. The fact is that People like MRS. Brady in the US cheer every time a crime young infant is killed with a gun. More collateral damage for their agenda to replace our beloved Red, White, and Blue with a swasitka. In America those who grow up with guns in the house learn to respect these tools, and learn proper safety precautions. While none of this could have prevented the VT tragedy perhaps if the radicals of this nation did not insist on gun free zones or AKA target rich environments perhaps some student who spent time as an infantry grunt or a cav scout could have once again defended his fellow countryman and put 2 rounds center mass in the guy and one round in his head. Oh yeah on the all mighty alter of polictal correctness that is no longer acceptable.
Kenneth Falconer, Minden, NV/USA
Europe has in place strict control laws and Europe has experienced similar school massacres in England, France and Germany. The Oklohoma City bombers and 9-11-01 demonstrate that psychos don't need guns to terrorize with carnage.
What America DOES NOT need is nauseating lectures on violence from Europe. It was Europe-- NOT the United States--that ignited two world wars and Jewish genocide that desimated the 20th Century. Total: 85 million dead.
If it wasn't for America Europe would be under the guns of homocidal ATHEIST Nazi and Stalinist's thugs. It's because America (and Britain) shoulders the global military burden that Euope can afford to sit back from the safety of their welfare states and pontificate "peace" while an Islamic Third Reich terrorizes the world with all weapons possible to enforce a Nazi ideology.
When the subject is violence America will PROUDLY stand by it's history V.S. Europe, Maoist China, U.S.S.R, Japan, Africa, Latin America, Asia and the Mideast.
cathy, Ruckersville, Virginia
Perhaps the primary question should be why every "soft target" massacre is seized upon by the spineless few as a good reason for MORE defenseless soft targets... or, how more and more free Americans have come to the supine conclusion that surrender maks frei? How gullible are they to enlist 17 year-olds as infantry, but deny adults the right (and responsibility) of self-defence?
Thanks for all your good wishes, but I'll defer to experts on the issue of self-defence, not the French, not the Italians, not the Germans, and not the Brits. Yeah, I'm Irish-American. Don't bother to say "Thanks" for the Lend-Lease armory, just keep on promoting authoritative confiscation.
In case you've never learned history properly, your kow-towing way of life is the reason many of the folks with vision, hope, ambition, and spine left Europe long ago.
Dennis Tully, People's Republik of Chicago, USA
Yes, Mr. Baker, we Americans have a deeply-rooted suspicion of Government. We not only allow, but REQUIRE free access to arms for our citizenry, even with its risks. "WHY?" is always the question posed by you Europeans. The answer? Because we will not allow our governments to send selected portions of our populace to remote, hidden camps to be worked to death, shot,or gassed , as have France, Germany, Poland, Russia, China, Italy...need I go on? We will not allow walls to be built and let to stand for forty years and shoot those trying to get from one side of a city to another. With a nod toward Mr. Putin, we will not allow government agents to murder members of the press for investigating a "democratic" government reinstalling tyranny. You will also notice that we use our "gun culture" as a basis of rather regularly rescuing you "civilized" Europeans from invading and slaughtering yourselves from time to time...WWI, WWII, or Bosnia come to mind. Grow up, sir.
T. Lopes, Los Angeles, USA
Joe Rooney : "American murderers can't hold a candle to the mass murders perpetrated by European Governments"
Come on Joe, You're being far too modest! Several million native Americans deliberately butchered or starved to death, at least that number of civilians carpet bombed or executed in Vietnam, unconditional support given to the most murderous regimes in south america and the middle east and an estimated extra million US citizens shot by other US citizens since 1960. How's operation "Iraqi freedom" working out? Several hundred thousand civilians may be dead, but didn't Halliburton's stock do well! Your government IS a contender Joe, your government IS somebody!
Oh, and this may be a difficult concept to grasp but Europe is actually composed of a number of different countries, some with very long histories indeed. But why let the facts get in the way of a good ol' rant?
Dan, Hampton, uk
I'm amazed at all the experts on the American Constitution and American morality that live in Europe.
I don't believe that the misplaced religious zealots would have infected 9/ 11 with their murderous and cowardly deeds had they known there was a good probability that passenger 23A was packing a .45.
Imagine this: John is walking down the hallway on the way to class when he rounds the corner to see a South Korean student draw a gun and shoot a fellow student. John drops his books, draws his handgun and shouts at the student to drop his weapon. The assailant refuses, and in fact aims his weapon at John. ** BOOM! ** Evil game over. 1 dead, not 32 and 28 wounded. This can only happen in a society where you realize that for the purpose of self-protection, you do not draw unless your life or the life of other innocents are involved. You do NOT use them because someone stole your girl or cut you off in traffic. The people of VT need our compassion and prayers, not yak.
Keith, Indianapolis, IN/ USA
"Let em shoot each other. Its obvious from most of the comments here that Americans are insane!"
A foreign national comes to America and shoots up a campus of young people, and the world leaps on the chance to blame the victims. Wow. (Except for Rainn from Dusseldorf who decides to blame the blacks, because... wait, there HAD to be some blacks involved in this somehow, right?)
All that's going on here is a chance for everyone to air their old cherished prejudices and feel self-satisfied.
I am tired and I'm not even going to try to fight this anymore. I'm going to concentrate on the poor victims, and on trying to understand what kind of mental anguish and imbalance would drive an otherwise quiet soul to such a heinous act.
C Lofters, New York, New York
While my family has always owned guns, I personally never wanted the responsibility of gun ownership. The lawlessness that occurred after Hurricane Katrina changed my mind. I am a 5’ 3” woman who lives alone. Should a disaster occur, more likely than not I will have only myself to rely on to keep me safe from harm. Therefore, I purchased a handgun as part of my “emergency survival kit,” and have taken courses to familiarize myself with my weapon. While I hope never to have to use it in self defense, I find comfort in knowing that should the streets of Los Angeles descend into anarchy, my .357 gives me the ability (and credibility) to say to those who otherwise would do me harm: “Move along, there’s nothing to see here.” To all those who write that only the police should have guns, I ask you: How effective were the police when New Orleans descended into chaos? I resent those sanctimonious few who would take from me the ability to defend myself and protect my life.
Danielle, Los Angeles, CA,
I must say to all you Europeans out there don't stereotype all Americans as gung-ho gun lovers. I am embarressed by my felllow American's oversimplification of the second amendment and gun control. Why is it that every time stricter gun laws are brought up there is a huge outcry by gun owners that the government is trying to take away all our guns. Did these people ever stop and think that stricter gun laws will not violate anyone's right to bare arms. For example, why it is necessary for people to own AK-47's and other assualt rifles when these guns are clearly not going to be used for hunting or self-defense? Our president allowed the assault rilfe ban to expire and did not renew it, making it easier for people to buy extra large magazines and assault rifles. I had a family member who was a teacher at Columbine during that awful tradegy and was in fact wounded, and I hope no one else will ever have to go through the emotional experience that myself and family had to go through.
Phil, Denver, Colorado USA
Until this incident, the most deadly school shootings occurred in Germany and Scotland, countries with pervasive gun control and never labeled a "gun culture".
McVeigh murdered 168 people with a fertilizer bomb. The London bombers murdered 52 and wounded 700 with common chemicals. 3000 Americans were murdered by terrorists armed with box cutters. If mass murder is in the heart, the tool is available.
There are roughly 70+ million law abiding firearms owners in the U.S. who are decent people from every walk of life. I defy those condescending Euros here to come up with a "gun culture" demographic that is not some shallow stereotype you parrot from TV, or your politicos.
Numerous red flags were missed, which could have stopped this atrocity. Among them, a judge mishandled a court-ordered mental hospitalization, which would have shown up on the Federal Insta-Check, blocking Cho's purchase of the handguns. But ultimately, the blame and responsibility rests with one person only.
Peter McMullen, Reno, Nevada, USA
A gun-free society will never work in America, it is far too ingrained in the culture. Americans have the uncanny ability to abuse any law or regulation for their own benefit, therefore, anti-gun legislation would just be used, abused and misconstrued to serve their own selfish needs.
If you want to live in a society without firearms, it will be far more expeditious to just move to another country where they are illegal , or at least better regulated. I'll see you there !
Carmen, Nashville,
With hundreds of millions of guns already in this country, any debate about stricter laws or meaningful legal change is academic. It's too late to do anything about the cancer of gun violence here.
Adam Bernstein, Charlotte, USA/NC
Despite claims of individualism, I am puzzled by everything from US anti-drug laws to seat belt laws, which assume I will not protect myself of my own free will. Simultaneously, our accountability, both individually and nationally, is vanishing. Sadly, it is easy for the world to write us off as spoiled children shouting for rights but rejecting responsibilities. We have created a culture in which life is worth less than might-- I may see torture on TV but not a breast, and more vent fury over gay marriage than will raise their voices against injustice and murder in the Sudan (indeed, religious right leaders consider this nightmare “distracting”). We cannot yet again wash our hands with “this man was not American,” or “there’s nothing we can do.” He was raised here and ingested America as inexorably as any of us. No one can say, “if we had done __ this would not have occurred.” We can once again take responsibility for effecting historic change, immediately.
AM, San Francisco, CA
I am glad that we are different from your civilised world. That would be the reason my family left Europe in the first place. Last time I checked America was the ecnomic leader of the civilised world. The freedoms that we enjoy have served us well and If I remeber correctly saved you twice in the last century.
Jeff, Baton Rouge,
KC Ramsey, New York, New York: "The day Europeans quit talking about the genocide of Native Americans as if they were somehow completely uninvolved will be a glorious day."
The US was responsible for over 95% of deliberate murders, deliberate infections and campaigns of planned starvation to say nothing of mass theft. The numbers of dead run into the millions comitted over a sustained period. Apparently, this does not bother you in the slightest.
Head north past Seattle and you'll find a country that at least makes something approximating an honest attempt to provide for their decendants. When will the US?
Dan, Hampton, uk
It now appears that the individual had been previously involuntarily committed. He should have been turned down on the background check if the NRA and the Law had their way. However because of privacy concerns mental health records are not included in background checks. So ironically it is not the US’s gun culture that is to blame but Political Correctness.
Eddie, Nashville, Tennessee
Europe has fewer gun deaths.
America has fewer bomb deaths.
Roy, Minnesota, USA
To Viv: It's precisely the measures taken after Dunblane that are the reason we haven't had any more Dunblanes....
To M. Fernandez: there must be a word for the tortuous logic you use to compare gun deaths in the US with genocides in Europe (many?)... we might as well bring in the genocide of the American Indian, and just think, if the Indians had had firesticks, they might not have dwindled to a few thousand leading lives of quiet desparation on reservations...
Janni, Elkridge, Maryland
Just a quick corrective: Almost two-thirds of all gun-related deaths in America are suicides.
This still leaves an astonishing and tragically high number of violent and accidental deaths, but to say that 30,000 American lives are stolen each year by guns is tremendously misleading.
Furthermore, a vast majority of gun murders take place in areas with a concentrated population of low-income households. What makes yesterday's events so tragic and so newsworthy is the fact that, in one day, bullets from guns ended the lives of more than 30 people who - statistically - should have never been affected by gun violence in their lives.
paul, arlington, VA
Contrary to what Mr Baker says, the NRA is in fact enormously powerful and has a cadre of allies in congress which block attempts to contain this problem which btw extends far beyond regular shootings in just schools. Never a week goes by without an incident somewhere. Post offices are popular locations for some reason. The statistics are these. There are about 32,000 gun deaths in the USA each year of which about 12000 are homicides(ie. murders). In the UK murders involving guns are in the high twenties. The very tight control of gun availability in the UK by contrast with their free availability in the USA is an obvious cause of the difference but Americans simply refuse to accept it. More American exceptionalism or simple stupidity.
John, CT, USA
Who cares?!?!? Let the Americans kill each other in name of their "Freedom". The world will definetly be a better place. They are the least free people in the world but don't dare to open their eyes and see their sad situation...
Tatiana, London, UK
Well, let's just cut to the chase:
If you want my gun, you're going to have to come and get it. Make sure you're carrying a bigger gun and know how to use it. You might want to bring a few friends with guns too.
Now, have a nice day.
Viet Dinh, San Jose, California
Violence begets violence ! It is high time that the American people stand up to organisations such as the NRA and others and reduce the potential for this sort of carnage ( its impossible to eliminate) by much tougher gun controls. To those that argue against such controls, have they ever asked themselves why the US suffers from such spree killings disproportinately compared to the rest of the "developed" world. Its time to wake up and do something about it or these killings will just continue,only the names and numbers will change ! Do it and do it now !!
Peter, Vancouver, Canada
Enough critisis of America's gun laws and the fact this terrible event happened. I think most readers are using this as excuse to 'America Bash', but are forgetting our own problems in the UK. Gun problems exist here, air guns and BB guns are easily converted to live round firing 'Saturday Night Specials' at around 50GBP, not to mention illegal imports coming in from the former Yugoslavia. Just ask any of the victims or anyone working on Operation Trident. These weapons are used to maim and kill as seen in the recent events in South London. Don't be so quick to judge our allies across the Atlantic as we have extensive problems in our own backyard. If guns are made illegal in the US, as they are here then criminals would revert to knives, as they are doing here and the problem is rife in every borough of London.
The killing of 33 people could easily have happened here. In fact it has happened here, remember Hungerford and Dunblane? Don't be so hypocritical.
Scaramanga, London, London
As an American (Democrat) living in London I read with interest the comments made in the Times. I find it remarkable that these arguments focus solely on the right to bear arms. Gun control is not the problem; LACK OF COMPASSION is. The US is becoming increasingly divided both politically and socioeconomically. We must learn to respect and empathise with our neighbors, something the current administration fails to do time and time again.
Lisa, London (Boston, MA USA), UK
All the anti-american claptrap here, is just that ,claptrap. The killer was Korean. Aren't the Koreans supposed to be well-behaved Confucians? A lot of good that did his "gun-loving American" victims. Perhaps if VT had not instituted a politically correct "gun-free campus", there would be fewer dead today. What Americans realise is that you can only protect yourself... the authorities won't. That is as true in the UK as in the USA. Just ponder on the victims of UK criminal violence, before you start on your paroxisms against American culture.
Bob Kanazawa, Toronto, Canada
I'm an American who's quite proud of most forms of US exceptionalism but likewise mystified by these school shootings and the nation's attachment to guns. It's not a frontier society anymore; hasn't been for over a century. The self-defense argument is a canard; violent crime is almost exclusively found in drug-ridden dysfunctional neighborhoods; the vast majority live in neighborhoods so safe and peaceful that one can leave his house unlocked at night without any fear.
The only explanation I can come up with for why the intolerable's tolerated is that our political class once again is so terrified of a tiny minority -- the National Rifle Ass'n and other gun nuts -- that it ignores the silent, unorganized majority, esp. those families with school-age children who find this situation absurd, intolerable, and yes, un-American. Not much diff. from the illegal immigrant debacle or the inability to ensure universal health insurance: blame a corrupt and incompetent political class.
thibaud, san jose, california
I love it!.... A guy from Nevada suggesting that the UK is culturally void. Let me guess, you probably think you're a quarter Irish, right?
And another slipping in a jab at universal healthcare. Yeah, the US really looks after their "most vulnerable" now don't they?
OJ, Ottawa, Canada
It is curious how the only mass shootings happen in "gun-free" zones. You don't hear as much about the ones that were prevented or stopped early, like in the high school shooting in Pearl, Massachusetts, the mall shooting in Trolley Square shopping mall in Salt Lake City, or the college shooting in Appalachian Law School, Virginia. In each case there was a deranged killer ready to go on a rampage same as in Virginia Tech; in each case, not a single person was killed (although some were wounded); in each case, the killer was stopped quickly by an armed civilian bystander. Successful self-defense by responsible armed citizens is the real American ritual that gets acted out literally millions of times every year. The main lesson to be learned from Virginia Tech is that you cannot be safe by disarming all law-abiding citizens, sticking your head in the sand and pretending that the criminals will go along with your happy "gun-free" fiction.
Bruce, Los Angeles, USA
As an American (Democrat) living in London I read with interest the comments made in the Times. I find it remarkable that these arguments focus solely on the right to bear arms.
Gun control is not the problem; LACK OF COMPASSION is.
The US is becoming increasingly divided both politically and socioeconomically. We must learn to respect and empathise with our neighbors, something the current administration fails to do time and time again.
Lisa, London (Boston, MA USA), UK
Joel, Phoenix, AZ, USA: "Reading all these comments from the Brits makes it easy to see why they're are all subjects to their government. They'll give up anything in the name of safety!"
Owning millions of privately registered firearms has made you less subject to your government - how precisely???
Seems to me that you and many other Americans are buying into this whole "I need a gun to be safe" philosophy perpetuated by corporations and special interest groups that are run by a handful of horribly rich people who inherited their wealth and tend to make up your government. For that false sense of security, all you're doing is lining their pockets even further.
Listen carefully Joel, You may hear them sniggering.
Dan, Hampton, uk
Joe Rooney : "American murderers can't hold a candle to the mass murders perpetrated by European Governments"
Come on Joe, You're being far too modest! Several million native Americans deliberately butchered or starved to death, at least that number of civilians carpet bombed or executed in Vietnam, unconditional support given to the most murderous regimes in south america and the middle east and an estimated extra million US citizens shot by other US citizens since 1960. How's operation "Iraqi freedom" working out by the way? Several hundred thousand civilians may be dead, but didn't Halliburton's stock do well! Your government IS a contender Joe, your government IS somebody!
Oh, and this may be a difficult concept to grasp but Europe is actually composed of a number of different countries, some with very long histories indeed to say nothing of individual nationalism. But why let the facts get in the way of a good ol' rant?
Dan, Hampton, uk
The problem was, as has been pointed out more than few times on the radio in the US lately, is that NOBODY except the murrderer was armed. and that was because the university prohibits licensed gun owners from bringing their weapons in campus! So, despite that there were definitely veterans and reservists in the area, who knew how to shoot back, and could have, and most definitely would have, they were disarmed.
Unlike too many Europeans, and I suppose today that unfortunately includes most of you once formidable Brits, we Americans are not yet willing to become sheep completely dependent on government to protect us. Dear God at least I hope not!
Do we have a 'gun culture'..yes, we do. I should think that besides ourelves you Brits would recall its usefulness more than others. After all, you did at one time ask us to lay down our arms. The day we do that we will become just another Euroweenie, totally beholden-to-government state.
Ken Siegel, Needham, Massachusetts
The day Europeans quit talking about the genocide of Native Americans as if they were somehow completely uninvolved will be a glorious day. The cash went both ways (and the microbes, purposefully distributed and not, originated in the Old Country.). Please descend from the high horse -- we darklings remain unimpressed.
I do not own a gun. Likely never will, as they terrify me, and I do not want the ready means to end someone's life at my hand -- I'm just a city girl, I'm not ready for that level of realism in my life. I see no logical reason why there are more regulations concerning the safety standards teddy bears then there are for firearms.
And yet... there are countries in this world that were converted from liberal democracy to police state overnight because 50 or so illiterate guys were better armed than the general public. And seriously, people who commit illegal acts are by far and away not doing this with guns from Wal-Mart. Ponder the efficacy of the "war on drugs."
KC Ramsey, New York, New York
Let's look at the numbers. 11,624 homicides were committed by firearm in the US in 2004 (latest CDC stats, cdc.gov). In the UK, 46 people were murdered by firearm last year. So 250 times as many firearm murders are committed in the US compared to the UK. The per capita firearm murder rate is 50 times higher in the US than the UK.
So why are people saying UK gun-control laws are ineffective? Clearly they're extremely effective.
Owen, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
An excerpt from a non-negotiable portion of a 220 year old governing document:
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. "
Liberals get hung-up on the word "militia" but even a cursory glance at the Federalist Papers will reveal that the intent of the founders centered around stanzas two and three, a free state and the RIGHT of THE PEOPLE.
If only the "educated" who all too often in casual conversation decry the 2nd amendment (without actually reading said amendment) as a relic of past times were as cavalier with the 1st.
Edward Doloughty, Chicago, USA / IL
I suppose there's enough ground for George Bush to start a pre-emptive war on South Korea or whatever country the killer came from, isn't there?
Claudio, Ascoli Piceno, Italy
"Local people frequently have their rifles in the back of their pickup truck. It makes for very polite people" -Joyce Wilson, Douglas Ga, USA
What kind of a society are you living in, if politeness is precipitated by a fear of being shot?
Pete, Cov,
I was very shocked and saddened to hear about this latest event. The only thing that suprises me is the very naive and idiotic idea that guns make us safer. Most European countries have a couple hudred gun deaths at most, hear they number several thousand. The dumbest idea I have heard is to let the teachers or possibly even the students carry guns. Just what we need is to have college students over a girlfriend or something stupid. Sure sometimes you hear about criminal being stopped by someone with a gun, but that is the exception and not the rule. Gun advocates like to point out that school shootings do not happen every day in this country. What they don't like to admit is that the vast majority of gun murders in this country take place in private homes or public places where guns are allowed. Quite often the victim is someone who owns a gun. I do not own a gun and would never consider buying one. How many more people must die before Americans give up this insane WildWest mentality.
Kevin, Lancaster, US
Do you know how many people died by firearm homicide in in the US in 2004? 11,624. (cdc.gov)
Do you know how many died by firearm homicide in the UK in 2004? 78. (homeoffice.gov.uk)
Yes, that's more than 11,600 deaths vs. 78 deaths.
That's a ratio of 150:1. We, at 300 million people, have 150 times more firearm murders than the UK, population 60 million, 1/5th our size.
Clearly we have a problem with guns in the US. An enormous problem.
Owen, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
My goodness..
Reading some of this stuff below is scary. I can't imagine what people are saying on the FOX News website!
All in the name of making themselves feel better about the havoc that their "Freedoms" seem to impose on others.
Note to self: Don't ever live in the U.S.
Hmmm. I heard that 170+ people got killed in Iraq today, but it seems that people don't want to talk about how disgusted they are about that.
As for the guy arguing that cars should be banned because people get killed by them.. The last time I checked the main function of a car was not to kill something with it. A gun on the other hand....
OJ, Ottawa, Canada
A quick question for those of you who do hold a hand gun.
If you travelled to Norway or Switzerland, would you carry your hand gun with you? 1. No because you're not allowed to. 2. No Because you don't need to. Would you be more "free" if you travelled with a gun? In these countries your freedom is not linked to whether or not you have a gun. I can understand that in certain parts of the US, where anyone can own a gun, people buy arms to protect themselves, but this just contributes to a viscious circle. For me, the real question is how to break this viscious circle as events like these will happen again. I doubt that the solution consists of buying more guns. It is urgent to stop trivializing violence in the US and for example start removing the presence of guns in children's cartoons (really, what's the point of having them in there??). And plenty more things can be done in this sense.
Nicolas, Buskerud,
A big ironic round of applause for all the Americans who are trying to justify the useless gun laws of their country. Blaming the no-guns on campus rule is ludicrous, the only answer to everyone having a gun would be that instead of the 32 killed more would have been killed by the likely cross-fire.
It's time the Americans woke up and realised that it is no longer the 18th century and to raise the standards of behaviour it expects from it's people with guns playing no role. Until the dumb gun-toting Bush doesn't go this is unlikely to happen.
Time for everyone to take responsibility for society's ills rather than laying them at one doorstep.
Observer, London, UK,
Not a bad article. Spot on about the price of freedom. You must admit though, American murderers can't hold a candle to the mass murders perpetrated by European Governments - and their European enablers. (think of any eastern block country, England in Ireland, le Terror and the Vichy, our good friends in Russia, Germany and Italy, Spain and Portugal, the Scandinavian deporters in WWII ... the list is endless.) Please read your own history books before you gape open-mouthed at us.
God Bless the USA and please grant eternal rest to those poor souls tragically lost.
Semper Fi,
Joe Rooney
Lifetime member of the NRA
Joseph Rooney, Ardsley, USA/PA
Those of you getting your nickers in a twist over U.S. gun laws need to consider for a moment that Mexico and Russia both have absolute prohibitions on handguns but have murder rates 2 and a half times, and 4 times that of the U.S, respectively. If high rates of gun owership cause violent crime, why isn't Switzerland having a murder problem? After all, they are possibly the most heavily armed nation in the civilized world.
It's also amusing that Mr. Baker cites Washington DC's gun ban, aparently ignorant of D.C. 's status as the murder capital of America...
Mark, Florida, USA
The same people who say ban handguns, probably say there are too many illegal aliens in the US to make deportation possible. Okay, let's accept that premise. Regardless of what you think about America and guns, there is no way that we can ban all guns here - just due to sheer numbers. If someone is willing to murder someone else, a gun ban isn't going to stop him. Hence, we should be able to protect ourselves. Banning guns in the US, will mean only the criminals have guns, and a lot of them. Why can't people figure that out? If you have questions about the positive impact of concealed carry and it's affect on crime, take a look at Florida and the results after it instituted the ability for law abiding citizens to get training and obtain permits. Unfortunately, when it comes to concealed carry, I now live in Illinois. We have a handgun ban in Chicago, maybe someone wants to review the statistics?
John, Wheaton, IL
So what are you going to do when all the guns are gone ? ban knives ? ...and when all the knives are gone ? ban rocks ? Maybe you and Michael Moore can get together and investigate why the JUSTICE SYSTEM is so lax. Not only in the US but in the UK and Europe mainland as well. It takes a living, breathing human being to decide to pull the trigger. Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
Average Jo, Hicksville, USA
Enough with the critique of American culture by the European's. America and it's culture is no more (or less) violent than Europe. There was NO holocaust in the US. It occured in Europe. Germans, Japanese, and European Russians slaughtered countless millions of defenseless people...However, the Euro elite media regards these countries as the most peaceful and enlightened in the world.
This was a horrible incident that occured in Virgina (by a non citizen by the way). It had nothing to do with American culture or a "gun crazed" population. The vast majority of America is much safer and better managed than any city in Europe or Japan...And we have much more freedom.
The British model would NEVER work here. American's are more "individual" in their thought. Freedom is the most valuable possession an American has. The right to own a firearm is included. We have a great country.
Travers, Paris, France
After reading the comments of a few of my fellow citizens, I feel deeply embarrassed by their rabid defense of guns. The assertion that gun ownership reduces crime defies all logic.....and fact that most of the comments here are some Americans leaving rude, sanctimonious hyperbole defending guns makes my heart very sad. And such hypocrisy.....making comments like "letting the bodies cool before commenting" when you are obviously making comments yourself. What do you do? Search for different opinions than yours and then rush off to bash them? We in this country have got to learn to take and listen to constructive critcism. Our country is not above moral reproach. The Europeans have been at it much longer than we, and we may benefit from having a listen and a rational conversation. The gunman killed with LEGALLY purchased guns, as have most, if not all, in mass killings. My heart is broken at the tremendous loss of so many families, in a senseless, and sadly somewhat common tragedy.
Amanda, Knoxville, Tennessee
Last year the Virginia legislature voted down a law that would have forced universities in Virginia to allow people to carry firearms on the universities with a permit.
If a few other students had been carying guns, perhaps the killer would have only gotten off a few shots before getting killed himself. We'll never know, but I'm sure the students would have liked the opportunity to defend themselves.
Most states in the U.S. now allow permits to carry concealed firearms. It's never the people who get the permits to carry firearms that do these shootings.
What will the MP's in Great Britain do if the next mass murderer in their country stabs a bunch of people? Will they ban knives? Just wondering.
Dan, Onalaska, WI USA
VA Tech shooting is very sad and I am sorry it happened.
The reason guns are allowed here and should be are simple. A government that fears its citizens, responds to it's citizens concerns. Once the government takes guns from law abiding people that right will never be given back and other rights will then be reliquinshed by the people out of fear of the government.
Our history/constitution tells us not to trust the government or the King.
William, Salt Lake City, USA
Americans have the right to bear guns. That right was granted in the Constitution; also, soldiers cannot be billeted in private homes. Guns don't kill people;people kill people. Americans won their independence by owning and using guns.
Years ago, people in the US never locked their doors. An intruder knew the owner might be armed.
Today, America is over run by immigration. Europe is losing its face to other cultures. England has its own problems. The US is a land of the free - that's why people all over the world seek to come here. Banning guns will simply take guns away from law-abiding citizens - the crooks will still have them.
Respectfully submitted,
Carolyn Phillips, Fulshear, Texas
Those who don't live in this country will never be able to understand this issue. Europeans have been trained for so long to rely on the all powerful and benevolent government that they cannot understand the frame of mind that the self-reliant American is in. First off, it's a different world here. We tried banning guns in DC, didn't work. Worst murder rate in the country. On the other hand, a town in Georgia made it illegal NOT to possess a firearm and the crime rate went down to next to nothing. Like was said in the article, we don't always trust the government, and for good reason. The right to keep and bear arms isn't just for hunting or self defense but also to prevent tyrrany from rising in our own country, tyrrany that may already be too close at hand.
Americans are a revolutionary and rebellious people by nature. The only way I can see another revolution however, is in the event that the government would be stupid enough to confiscate arms. See what happens then.
Danny , Archbold, Ohio
"Consent of the governed" is a quaint and meaningless slogan absent the ability to enforce withjdrawal of that consent. By my reading of history, organized governmental actions have murdered perhaps 10,000 times more innocents than armed individuals since the advent of the firearm - particularly where citizens arms have been confiscated. Europeans, it seems are quite exemplary in that regard. Perhaps then, you may forgive this despicable American NRA member for putting little stock in effete European rantings. While I find much to admire in European history, the European present is uninspired to say the least; its future is likely nonexistent.
Steven Chernus, Pittsburgh, PA
This event is very sad. But it happened using guns illegally purchased, in a gun-free zone. And as long as a sizable minority of our citizens continue to be properly armed, it creates a culture not naive to the use of force, and largely responsible, and a whole lot free than other countries. China might brag about it's tough gun control laws, but how many Chinese have died at the government's hands in the last 50 years? Germany might brag about it's low murder rate, but the Holocaust will always be a stain. These are but two examples of what happens when you remove guns from responsibile, law-abiding citizens- mass murder, not just a random atroicity. Even Britain once had a proud history of having ordinary citizens carryign weapons- from being the first to allow citizens to own swords and spears, to a long history of private gun ownership. Sadly, the British are forgetting their history- and thus losing their glory, honor, and influence inthe world. The US will not.
Kyle, Detroit, Michigan, USA
With regards to the comments by Jim in New York: I have not been “brainwashed” by the NRA. Your statement that “Well cars perform another somewhat practical function unlike guns which are to kill people only” confirms that as a true liberal, you will never let facts get in the way of a good argument. This website is full of half-truths and outright falsehoods by the anti-gun crowd.
Here are some facts: Guns have many functions, the least of which is “to kill people”. I have been a recreational, competitive shooter since I was 10 years old, I have used guns to hunt and provide food for my family and on two separate occasions have thwarted the attempts by armed criminals to bring harm to my family or myself. In both cases my possession of and knowledge about how to use a concealed weapon resulted in the safety of my family and the incarceration of the criminal.
I will never subordinate the right to defend myself or my family to the government.
Karl Holfeld, Hana, Hawaii, US
The funny thing is, that Americans must be feeling that they aredefending a Status Quo which is indefendable.
Even without tyhe mighty accusations that they try to falsify.
Just count the American posts and the european posts.
A lot of americans defending themselves to very few accusations.
Seems like you realy try to concince yourselves that you are right.
Other Thing: Many Americans refer to Bosnia or similar european countries, when they say: "Europeans mind your own business!"
Bosnia is as much of a foreign country to brittain, or germany as America, or Saudi Arabia.
Besides that we try hard to get rid of these inequalities instead of pointing at our neighbours and saying: "But they are just as bad!"
Germany is not Bosnia.
Besides that I can't believe that Americans are actually that obsessed about weapons as it seems here.
Anton, Berlin, Germany
We'd need three more Cho Seung-Huis to equal one Hillsborough riot.
Seven more Cho Seung-Huis to equal one Harold Shipman.
300 more Cho Seung-Huis (or ten Hurricane Katrinas for that matter) to equal one hot French summer's worth of law-abiding, state-trusting people left to die by a state and a people too busy with their summer vacations to bother with their most vulnerable citizens.
The US has its pathologies, to be sure, but look in the mirror Europe before casting so much mud at the US
Carole Miller, Austin, TX, USA
"But we Europeans do constantly thank the Russians that we don't speak German!"
Where I come from, we thank the Canadians ;)
starling, Lancaster,
"GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!!!!
If the guy'd had a knife, he wouldn't have been able to kill 32 people.
And could you read the rest of the comments? That phrase has been used (and refuted) to death.
starling, Lancaster,
I wish you would all just read your own constitution.
"Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
This clearly means that American's have the right to bear arms TO ENSURE THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE. This does not give any individual the right to sleep with five guns under their pillow, much less walk into their local Wal-Mart or wherever it is you get them and buy them off the shelf.
Also, Josh from Las Vegas, Nevada, as well as many others who have commented here may want to take into consideration the fact that more Americans are killed every year from gun crime than are killed in the UK from car accidents. Obviously the UK is only about a third of the size but I think the point is made.
Auriol, Oxford, England
H. Rapp Brown said it best:
"Violence is as American as cherry pie."
What is the use of the stuff about praying for families and repeating the trite, "my heart goes out"?
This stuff, too, is so sadly American.
Kill and pray. Isn't that what the Marines do in Iraq?
John Chuckman, Toronto, Canada
Fortunately guns allowed our country to kick the criminal England out of our country. It seems interesting that there is more people killed in England, where guns are outlawed then in America. Millions of Americans with guns protect themselves every single year. Long live the 2nd amendment!
Gregory, Medford, OR
As a citizen of the United States I will say the gun laws are too laxed. Criminals can easily buy guns through black market. Guns are sold with few regulations at gun shows. Many law adbiding citizens also buy hand guns because they are afraid. Guns among gangs are many. As mentioned in another reader's response, jail sentences are very light for persons caught with guns, especially those under the age of eighteen years of age. Guns, gangs and violance are glorified in rap music. Living in America is dangerous. Law makers..please help.
Claudia P., Rancho Cucamonga, CA, United States
I have to chuckle at the condemnations by those in the old world. What contintent saw the two most vicious, deadly conflicts in world history? Ahem, I believe it was Europe. And what settlers started the genoicide against the Indians...I believe it was the English in the lead.
I agree that no regular Joe needs a semiautomatic weapon. But I have no problem with Americans being able to own hunting and weapons for self-defense. I own NEITHER, but in America, that is my choice.
Mordechai, Fairfax, VA
"Why is it that I notice that most comments are almost by us Yanks and UK people hardly ever comment in their own paper? Are you all too shy?"
When the comments are overrun by you Yanks, the mods get so busy that the UK people don't get posted.
starling, Lancaster,
The 2nd amendment was written for muskets. Not automatic weapons and grenade launchers.
Nick, Milton Keynes, UK
How does one keep an obvious mental deranged person from this type of horror. It reminds me of suicide bombers, who use anything to kill and think nothing of including innocent victims.
I believe if a gun was not available, he would have found a way to commit this heinous act anyway.
Stella , Marshall, VA
Susan, Franklin Park, NJ
Yes, lefties want to abolish guns to stop the killing yet have no problem with partial-birth abortion. You're a HYPOCRIT
MCD, Elmhurst, USA
"...oh my god, you call that freedom?..."
Yet another of the billions worldwide who have no concept of the word Freedom.
Keith, Indianapolis, IN/ USA
Ok, as an US citizen I apologize for my right to bear arms neighbors. I don't think any death by gun violence is less important than my right to bear arms. What the gun nuts won't say is how many of their weapons are stolen on a daily basis and then used to commit a crime. The right to bear arms is not more important than our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The killings have got to stop. The right to bear arms has to be readdressed.
Cathy Snedeker, Kettering, Ohio
Guns are tools designed to assist people in killing people - and they are extraordinarily effective in that task.
We don't allow sarin gas to be sold with just an ID check. US citizens aren't allowed to purchase one cyanide canister a month. Flamethrowers are not available at Walmart. Uranium 235 isn't available for purchase at the sporting goods store. Why? Because these are tools designed to kill people, and for some reason, we think they're too dangerous to be sold to the public. Why then do we turn a blind eye to guns, the tools that result in over 11,000 homicides a year in the US?
Guns are tools of death, and should be treated as such.
Owen, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
We'd need three Cho Seung-Huis to equal one Hillsborough.
We'd need about