Mr Godson is correct in showing that non-elected so-called "community leaders" do not represent the community.

But he errs in focusing on the concept of victimhood, as if this is the root of the problems with Islamic extremism.

It is not. The Islamic extemists are very clear as to their goals with regard to Western culture, religion and society. The bleating over oppression/victimhood is a cover, and part of the means to their ends. We should not be fooled by it.

Yours sincerely

Harold, New York, New York

I do not think that, as Mr Godson asserts, "the terms of trade" are as yet "shifting against" this "brand of victim culture".

I would very much like to think that they were.

By and large, I think that the evidence continues to point in the opposite direction.

It would be useful to see Mr Godson given the opportunity to argue his case at greater length

dwelsh, newcastle, UK

One question for Muslims: Do you without hesitation, equivocation, or qualification support the right of non-Muslims to live and worship freely in Mecca and eleswhere in Saudi Arabia?

James, Jacksonville, Illinois U. S.

It is unfortunate that the majority of Muslims are silent about corrupt organisations such as the MCB and I mean morally corrupt. I do not need Muslim leaders . Islam is a very private faith for me and I have a leader. His name is Tony Blair with all his warts. In the next election I will vote for my rep who will then elect the next PM who will be my leader.

Khalid Ansari, london, UK

Uhnfortunately muslims will never be fully integrated unless they confront the radicals within their own community.Why are the extremist preachers allowed to practice in mosques if their views are not representative of muslims as a whole?Islam needs to confront it's own weaknesses instead of continually blaming the west for it's failure to "understand".

ash, london,

Unfortunately the muslim community is continuing to ignore the culture of extremism within it.Until the radicals and the infra-structure of support that surrounds them are confronted there can never be a representative muslim voice in this country.Islam needs to address it's own evils first before it can assimilate itself further.This country is broadly secular and will never except the so called muslim leaders while they continue to allow radicalism to flourish within their mosques and communities.

ash, london,

Chie

Can I come and live in your country please?

I guarantee I would make every effort to integrate into what sounds like a lovely place.

Nick , cardiff, UK

All that Mr. Godson is doing is repeating what bloggers such as www.neopolemic.blogspot.com were saying a year and a half ago. The reluctance of both politicians and press to challenge these so called 'community leaders' since 7/7 has been part of the institutional failure to prosecute a meaningful war on terror.

Michael Merton, London,

Dean Godson presents a cogent argument and it does seem as if the loudest voices in Muslim communities across the UK are the most extreme ones. Perhaps we are more predisposed to think this as the only extant threat of terrorism in this country now comes from the 'radical' wing of Islam. It would hardly matter what arrant nonsense extremist clerics spouted if it wasn't for the hard historical facts of 7/7 and 21/7 - events that were encouraged and spiritually and intellectually endorsed by the fanatics as they shaped malleable young minds to murder. Thus Godson is right to point out that this debate is one with very real and potentially catastrophic consequences for all of us. This embraces the Muslim community itself, especially the peaceful majority, and a host population that sees the conspicuous extremists, and hence Islam as a whole, as a mortal threat .

Mike Collins, London, UK

I have often wondered how people like Mr. Naseem attain their positions. Is he elected? And, if so, by what method and constituency? How long does he hold office for? Is it fixed term? And what of his fellow office holders? Perhaps someone could provide the information. Clearly, it is vital to understand how far he 'represents' the community.

Noton Woodseat, London,

Islam is a primitive religion that is about 700 years younger than Christianity. Like Christianity 700 years ago, it is going through a violent and angry time of change, dominated by extremist men who advocate the murder of innocent people. They urge islamic people to separate themselves from the rest of the community and blame non-muslims for islam's problems. Unfortunately, it has become obvious that only a minority of muslims have the courage to speak out against these awful people. As a result, most non-muslims think of islam as little more than a death cult offering little to the community. This is sad and unfair, but not unexpected given recent events in New York, Madrid, London, Bali, Israel and the Middle East.

The end result will be a religion that joins the modern world and contributes to it in a positive manner. However in the meantime governments have to do all they can to engage the moderates that do exist.

Mark, Sydney, Australia

armaga should realise that mudslinging is no substitute for cogent debate. To throw "neocon" at the author is specious, and the news that his views have been criticised on Muslim websites is hardly telling.
The author attempts to identify new Islamic leaders because the existing pretenders are all so awful. It would appear that Muslims do not appear to know who their spokespersons are either. This exposes what the author and most commentators seem to miss; Islam is not homogeneous, and therefore the concept of the "British Muslim" is part myth and part wishful thinking. There appear to be more sects and factions (Sufi or not!) than there are versions of the bible. If this were acknowledged, then the so-called leaders and spokesmen would be marginalised. The invention of a constituency for islamists is a mistake which has been seized upon by the MCB and others. Remove their facade of legitimacy and you remove their voice.

Ian Simpkins, Offley Hay, Staffordshire

To armagan
Why do British muslims need their own leaders? They already have their imams and Britain already provides the opportunity for anybody to be a politician. So what kind of leaders are we talking about here?

Being an immigrant myself, I have no need for "my own" leader as the Britain is already set up with a perfectly well working democracy. The need for muslim leaders appears to be a necessity as Islam is a political religion. Most people in this country do not mind other religions as long as it is kept private and away from the political agenda. Islam does not seem to be compatible with a secular society.

H T Parminter, Llandudno, Wales

Armagan, unfortunately until now few, if any, Muslims have claimed that Khalid Mahmood is not consdiered to be your representative. I cannot see that anybody is telling you who should be your representative, other than those that claim to represent you. Why should the government not speak to the Sufi Council, who have not claimed victimhood, as opposed to the MCB. If, as is suggested, many Muslims do not wish to be associated with the many terrorist acts being carried out around the world by Muslims, then they should do and say soemthing about it, otherwise many will just see it as tacit support for these activities.

David Leslie, Perth, Scotland

A large dollop of blame can fairly be laid at the door of the BBC who after any incident rush their reporters round looking for radical and extremist views to fill the news air time. These extreme views are then held by the BBC as popular opinion!
Your artical is correct and of course the MCB is not the voice of moderation.

D Case, Newquay, UK

Unfortunately it's the West that props up the corrupt and repressive regimes in the Muslim world that are fuelling Jihadi violence by denying people democracy and economic development.

It's nonsense to talk about a 'victim culture' when 'our' need to control the worlds most strategically important region leads to shameless support for a series of criminal regimes, from Saudi Arabia to Mubarak's Egypt. Too many muslims really are victims of the West's selective tolerance of client regimes and useful dictators.

Let's start from a position of basic honesty before we accuse of others of a 'victim mentality.' Western powers have occupied and manipulated the Middle East for decades. Declarations of 'messianic' intent and 'democratising' missions are a pretext for the pursuit of material self interest.

Austin, Milborne Port, Dorset

The tide is turning, albeit slowly. The multiculturalist disaster must eventually be transformed into a determined programme of integration. Articles like this take us forward by showing the true illiberalism of so many Muslim front organizations, much as the recent 'Undercover Mosque' documentary took the lid off some 'moderate' mosques. Muslims have struggled for over 200 years to come to terms with the modern world, and are still struggling. In Pakistan, preachers now inveigh against polio vaccinations, calling them a US plot to sterilize Muslims. Neurosis takes the place of reasoning and positive planning, condemning millions to unhappy futures, and the Muslim world to generations more of conflict and poverty. Policy Exchange's report, coupled with others, shows how far these problems remain problems in the UK as well. Seeing how succcessful other religious communities in the UK have been, it is surely in the best interests of British Muslims to break from the MCB and the rest.

Dr. Denis MacEoin, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK

Why do "Muslim communities" (whatever they might be) need special treatment anyway? They can vote in general and local elections, and therefore be democratically represented in the same way as everyone else. HMG should not allow any of these self-appointed, un-democratic groups a seat at the table of Government, whatever their persuasion.

Steve, Cambridge,

A disturbing feature of Muslim self-segregation is the disproportionate effect on our electoral system created by the way in which the Muslim population of this country is distributed geographically. How many Labour-held constituencies are dominated by local aggregations of Muslim population and to what extent is a government fighting to maintain its parliamentary majority dependent on those constituencies ?

Richard Shaw, Pinner, Middlesex

What on earth is "Neo con" supposed to be? Sounds like some sort of paranoid deulsion to me.
As for the article itself, I agree that many muslims feel slightly bemused, and even angry, at the antics of people like Dr Naseem, their self-elected "representative". I know this for fact, because I believe muslim colleagues that I work with and respect, rather than some odd over-exciteable man such as Dr Naseem.

Pete, Liverpool, UK

I agree with armagan. The Policy Exchange think tank is a neo-con outfit and is thus heavily in favour of supporting US and Israeli objectives. Why else would it care if Muslims over here support attacks in Israel, a nation thousands of miles from the UK?
The West is living in cloud cuckoo land if it thinks it can control peoples beliefs and sentiments. For centuries Catholics had at least a sentiment in favour of the Catholic states of Europe as well as an allegiance to the Pope. And if it couldn't stop socialists sympathising with the USSR all through the Cold War, why exactly do they think they can change British Muslims' sentiments about places like Iraq and Palestine?

Raashid, London,

The best solution to these sectarian problems in the UK would be for everyone who has not already done so to apply their intellect a little harder and abandon their religious beliefs, which are so limiting and destructive and selfish. These intransigent beliefs will bring the world down. One of the best things about being in Japan is the almost total absence of religious and racial tension, which makes it a very pleasant place to live. Other countries should emulate the Japanese and shed themselves of their religious baggage, or at least stop foisting it on others. Then the countries of the world would have a chance to survive and co-exist.

Chie, Tokyo, Japan

Surely by asserting that Muslims need to be represented as a group by some hitherto to be created Muslim group the author makes exactly the same mistake he accuses others of. I wonder how many non-muslims would answer a question such as "Which major political party tryuly represents your views?" I would bet that about half would answer "none do". The author's inability to see Muslims as anything other than a homogfenous group is where he falls down. Muslims, like the rest of us, hold different views on different issues, left and right, some believed in the invasion of Iraq and plenty of them risked thier lives and died in some cases to achieve this, some objected. Any "leader" represents only a part of their views. Until Muslims are engaged with properly and these, quite frankly pathetic, attempts to hive off a single 'Muslim voice' are ended we won't get anywhere. Muslims are as much part of the UK as any other group and should not be seperated our based solely on a religious link.

Thomas Davies, London, UK

Why do Muslims need someone particular to represent them? Haven't they got MPs?

Will , London,

The victim mentality used in the muslim community runs hollow when the indian community has integrated and made a success of their lives.

The reason there is high unemployment is cultural with many women not being allowed to work and many using excuses like no place to pray.

I think we need more positive role models like Amir Khan to show the young muslims that they can make themselves a success in the UK with hard work and no chip on their shoulder.

I think negative clerics/MCB have too much say in these communities!!!!

Paul, London,

Question for Phil, from Preston:

While i am not pro-religion, neither i am against it , i would like to ask you: if becoming a christian after rejecting Islam means that people beleive Islam to be wrong, then what about those who reject christianity (and this is happening rather often now) to become muslims? What does this says about christianity?
Enough with all those senseless talk about religion.
Let's learn to become united regardless one's religion or beliefs. After all, aren't we all human beings?

tia, london, england

I think Islam needs some kind of reformation - to separate out the long out-dated 7th century cultural tenets from the big message and moderate some extracts of the language that currently exists which is threatening to non-Mulims - and certainly to Muslims who change religion (leave Islam). This does not show the religion in a good light - in fact is a weakness. They should remember that the boss said "My Kingdom has many houses......".

Phil, Preston,

Why does the author and The Times persist in telling us British Muslims who our leaders should be? Surely we have the democratic right choose them ourselves? Khalid Mahmood is a figure so ridiculed amongst muslims (of all persuasions, both secular and practising) he is not even worth talking about (and I am a fellow member of the Labour party!) I never voted for Dr Naseem but he is regarded as a respected and moderate figure within the muslim community.
There seems to be a neo con agenda here to replace the MCB with this sufi council, in my 33 years as a British muslim. I have yet to meet a sufi muslim. So how they can represent me and the larger non-sufi muslim community is beyond me!
The right wing Policy Exchange (to which the author belongs) report has already been exposed as a neo-con inspired sham on Muslim web sites. The Times should not be peddling this discredited nonsense considering the same people led us to the Iraq war, and we all know what a success that was!

armagan, London, UK

How can any group claim to represent the grassroots of British Muslim opinion when so many British mosques are hijacked by foreign regimes who have political or even military motives?

The overhwelming majority of British Muslims are peaceful and law-abiding. We completely condemn any violence or crime, especially terrorism. That is why we are not represented in debates and kept out of the headlines.

Muqbool, London, UK

The over-promotion of 'community leader' Islamicists over genuine members of the Muslim community is a reflection of how the 'anti-racist' lobby (often too ignorant to distinguish a race and a culture, and certainly too uninformed to see the diversity of Islam across the globe) made any criticism of a minority a sign of racism. We are belatedly waking up to this, but the attitude is still pernicious in the well-meaning who fear noting difference is itself racist. The same observation follows for gun crime in south London, child abuse driven by 'witchcraft' beliefs, and the concerns of the white working class being socially displaced.

Righton, Glasgow,

Why do you say that Dame Pauline's statement that "the “inferior status” of Muslim women is at least as much of a stumbling block to upward mobility as “Islamophobia” is merely "controversial"? There is widespread discrimination against Muslim women by Muslim men. For example, Asra Nomani was threatened with ‘slaughter, halal style’ for demanding that women have equal status with men in mosques. British Muslim preachers ask for homosexuals to be thrown off mountains, describe women as deficient and recommend the mutilation of offenders. Quaradawi himself advocates the beating of women. To say these views are "controversional" is a cop out. Such views are an inspiration for those wish to carry them out. This is not acceptable in the UK, or anywhere and you should say so. No ifs, buts, or other weasle words.

R Mason, London, UK

Finsbury park Mosque was built & paid for by local muslims, who had prayed at a site next to the underground exite for many years. When it opened it was taken over weeks later by hamza, so the majority of muslims moved back to the site next to the underground exit on 7 sisters rd. So the police now give it to another radical muslim ? Why not to the original people who built it ?
There is too much victimhood in this culture, not just islamists, but motivated by the left since the 70's - some good, some bad. It reminds me of the that famous line -'help, help, I'm being oppressed !' Sir M. Python circa 1972
Thank God we are discussing it instead of pretending its not happening.

Paul., London,

Quite right. Nobody can blame Britain -- or any other western country for that matter -- for the problems that Muslims face today.

Robert Millar, Stockholm, Sweden

The race is on? What race? The problem is that so few people - whether in the Tory Party, or in the Labour Party - are likely to really 'speak up': political correctness is so entrenched that the idea terrifies them.

There certainly is an open door to push on, but the only people with the courage to do the pushing seem to be in the BNP.

Herbert Thornton, Victoria, Canada

I agree that Dr Naseem only represents himself. Muslims in the UK are heterogeneous and no one organisation can claim to lead muslims. The less attention the media pays to the Dr Naseems in Britain the better. MPAC seem more sensible.

Dr Izhar Khan, Aberdeen,

The MCB doesn't represent British Muslims, who elected them? I surely didn't nor I know a single person who has! Muslims in Britan are fed up with terrorists and extremists hijacking Islam and misrepresenting it. In addition, why is the media not giving the moderate Muslim population the chance to defend itself and speak out against terrorisim? and why is it that whenever I speak out against terrorisim and extremisim as a Muslim, some BNP supporter drowns me voice in ludicrous statements saying that my opinion doesn't count since being a Muslim makes me an evil terrorist by default?
Why is no one listening to the Muslims speaking out against Terrorisim?

Adam Al-Hassam, Sheffield,

But many, many ordinary voters have been shouting this from the rooftops for years and only now are the politicians waking up - meanwhile we have been called Islamofascists and bigoted. Bah! and double Bah!

Grumpy Old Brit Git.

Philip McMullen, Blackwood, UK

A large dollop of blame can fairly be laid at the door of the BBC who after any incident rush their reporters round looking for radical and extremist views to fill the news air time. These extreme views are then held by the BBC as popular opinion!

D Case, Newquay, UK

Good article.

But given that a Cameron anti-islamist policy would cheer core Tory supporters, one cynically wonders whether Cameron will therefore do the exact opposite.

Roland Smith, Amersham, UK

Mohammad Naseem may be the Chairman of the Birmingham Mosque, but one wonders if he really is a representative of the people. In democratic Muslim states (Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran), the political leaders are elected democratically, but the religous leaders are subject to appointment and the Muslim public has little to no say in the matter. Even if they did (which I am sure some Muslims will claim), the democratic influence on the selection of Mosque leaders and Imams are minimal at best. As Dean Godson so rightly points out, Khalid Mahmood is a much better representative of the people. Unfortunately, one suspects that Mr Mahmood has no religous authority because, well, he wasnt elected an Imam!

The victim culture is rife among the Muslim community. 2 days ago 3 men were arrested in connection with the Leeds toddler murder, and 2 were subsequently released without charge. By Muslim standards, does that mean that the UK is a police state for white men as well?

Pete, Cov,

I find the referance to El Andalus in todays Times upsetting as this refers to an armed conflict between muslims and christians .
Anyone visting Granada cannot ignore the beauty of the Muslim civilisation that created a great culture and stability for eight hundred years?The transfer of culture and technology via Granada through the silk road was a wonder not to be idly tarnished with derogatory inferance.
To suggest that Dr Naseem can denounce 7/7 until Europe once again falls to Muslim rule, presumable by force, in a national paper is disturbing.

yours

christian ambrose, hitchin,