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From The Times

March 7, 2007

How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Islam

Is it racist to condemn fanaticism?

Phyllis Chesler

Once I was held captive in Kabul. I was the bride of a charming, seductive and Westernised Afghan Muslim whom I met at an American college. The purdah I experienced was relatively posh but the sequestered all-female life was not my cup of chai — nor was the male hostility to veiled, partly veiled and unveiled women in public.

When we landed in Kabul, an airport official smoothly confiscated my US passport. “Don’t worry, it’s just a formality,” my husband assured me. I never saw that passport again. I later learnt that this was routinely done to foreign wives — perhaps to make it impossible for them to leave. Overnight, my husband became a stranger. The man with whom I had discussed Camus, Dostoevsky, Tennessee Williams and the Italian cinema became a stranger. He treated me the same way his father and elder brother treated their wives: distantly, with a hint of disdain and embarrassment.

In our two years together, my future husband had never once mentioned that his father had three wives and 21 children. Nor did he tell me that I would be expected to live as if I had been reared as an Afghan woman. I was supposed to lead a largely indoor life among women, to go out only with a male escort and to spend my days waiting for my husband to return or visiting female relatives, or having new (and very fashionable) clothes made.

In America, my husband was proud that I was a natural-born rebel and free thinker. In Afghanistan, my criticism of the treatment of women and of the poor rendered him suspect, vulnerable. He mocked my horrified reactions. But I knew what my eyes and ears told me. I saw how poor women in chadaris were forced to sit at the back of the bus and had to keep yielding their place on line in the bazaar to any man.

I saw how polygamous, arranged marriages and child brides led to chronic female suffering and to rivalry between co-wives and half-brothers; how the subordination and sequestration of women led to a profound estrangement between the sexes — one that led to wife-beating, marital rape and to a rampant but hotly denied male “prison”-like homosexuality and pederasty; how frustrated, neglected and uneducated women tormented their daughter-in-laws and female servants; how women were not allowed to pray in mosques or visit male doctors (their husbands described the symptoms in their absence).

Individual Afghans were enchantingly courteous — but the Afghanistan I knew was a bastion of illiteracy, poverty, treachery and preventable diseases. It was also a police state, a feudal monarchy and a theocracy, rank with fear and paranoia. Afghanistan had never been colonised. My relatives said: “Not even the British could occupy us.” Thus I was forced to conclude that Afghan barbarism was of their own making and could not be attributed to Western imperialism.

Long before the rise of the Taleban, I learnt not to romanticise Third World countries or to confuse their hideous tyrants with liberators. I also learnt that sexual and religious apartheid in Muslim countries is indigenous and not the result of Western crimes — and that such “colourful tribal customs” are absolutely, not relatively, evil. Long before al-Qaeda beheaded Daniel Pearl in Pakistan and Nicholas Berg in Iraq, I understood that it was dangerous for a Westerner, especially a woman, to live in a Muslim country. In retrospect, I believe my so-called Western feminism was forged in that most beautiful and treacherous of Eastern countries.

Nevertheless, Western intellectual-ideologues, including feminists, have demonised me as a reactionary and racist “Islamophobe” for arguing that Islam, not Israel, is the largest practitioner of both sexual and religious apartheid in the world and that if Westerners do not stand up to this apartheid, morally, economically and militarily, we will not only have the blood of innocents on our hands; we will also be overrun by Sharia in the West. I have been heckled, menaced, never-invited, or disinvited for such heretical ideas — and for denouncing the epidemic of Muslim-on-Muslim violence for which tiny Israel is routinely, unbelievably scapegoated.

However, my views have found favour with the bravest and most enlightened people alive. Leading secular Muslim and ex-Muslim dissidents — from Egypt, Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Pakistan, Syria and exiles from Europe and North America — assembled for the landmark Islamic Summit Conference in Florida and invited me to chair the opening panel on Monday.

According to the chair of the meeting, Ibn Warraq: “What we need now is an age of enlightenment in the Islamic world. Without critical examination of Islam, it will remain dogmatic, fanatical and intolerant and will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality, originality and truth.” The conference issued a declaration calling for such a new “Enlightenment”. The declaration views “Islamophobia” as a false allegation, sees a “noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine” and “demands the release of Islam from its captivity to the ambitions of power-hungry men”.

Now is the time for Western intellectuals who claim to be antiracists and committed to human rights to stand with these dissidents. To do so requires that we adopt a universal standard of human rights and abandon our loyalty to multicultural relativism, which justifies, even romanticises, indigenous Islamist barbarism, totalitarian terrorism and the persecution of women, religious minorities, homosexuals and intellectuals. Our abject refusal to judge between civilisation and barbarism, and between enlightened rationalism and theocratic fundamentalism, endangers and condemns the victims of Islamic tyranny.

Ibn Warraq has written a devastating work that will be out by the summer. It is entitled Defending the West: A Critique of Edward Said’s Orientalism. Will Western intellectuals also dare to defend the West?

Phyllis Chesler is an Emerita Professor of Psychology and Women’s Studies at the City University of New York

Sometimes what is written and what is in the laws are always different from reality of what is really happenning.

James, Manila, Philippines

Marti Klocke, you must be reading a different Qu'ran that I am reading. Or perhaps you are not reading even reading it.

A woman only needs to say "I want a divorce" 3 times and it's done. Very simple. The man can't "Take her back." There's nothing in the Qu'ran about that. Sons inherit 2x more than women because the women inherit a dowry from their husband's family, which can range from anything from material money or position in a business. Men can't force their wives to do anything. Whether or not the woman can go outside or not is not discussed in the Qu'ran; anyone keeping her at home is probably violating her rights as a human.

Go study up.

Hakeem Khalid, Los Angeles, California

yes..an age of enlightenment is needed...but this will only occur when the west leaves these countries at peace.
Also...Islam barbaric? I belive you have misunderstood the meaning of Islam itself. Judge the muslim not Islam itself and then you will see the difference of what Islam is as a faith and the person as the follower.
Media influence has changed many perspectives around the world about this religion that is heavily centralised by political affairs. If you want to seek the true meaning and understanding of Islam...the best advice i give is go back to the fundamental source which is the Quran. Then you see according to the teachings how righteous a muslim is. You have shed light on purely the traditional and cultural aspect of your life's experiences. Be curious but in the correct way before making such allegations.

Azkaa Hassam, London , UK

i am a free white christian male.i live work and interact with those like me....i dont want to live in any muslim state..i dont want to influence them to think,look,or act like me...if you leave me be in peace.i will return the same.try to push me and i will push back.
the anglo saxon race and the muslim have disagreed about god and allah for a long time...why dont we realize that they are the same?

jeffrey dean, New Hope, alabama

Sadiq, your post is a half-lie, and you know it. Without going into all the details: Yes it is possible for a woman to get a divorce but it is 5 times harder and takes ages, mostly the man has the chance to annulate the divorce by "taking her back". And yes this very uneven treatment ist part of Islamic Law. The same goes for inheritage (men inherit 2x the part of women), the right for men to have sex with their wifes anytime they wish, the right from keeping her in the family house and never let her out. Everything written in the Holy Koran. The good thing, every one is free to buy this book and to read it in order to make up his mind and understand, that most statements by Muslims here in the west are lies ("this or that is not the Islam blah blah) or lack of knowledge. PEOPLE, READ THE KORAN. It will open your eyes. This book would be forebidden if written today.

Martin Klocke, DÃ¼sseldorf, Germany

It is my reply to Saba. It is not a matter that Women can not get separated from her husband without his consent according to Islamic Law. She can get separation on his own will accrding to Islamic Law, only the way is different and no one (even husband) can not regret her decision.You can not say with surety that Islamic Law is as your point of view as you have not studied it well and not even practiced. In underdevloped countries mostly women are not educated and can not have access to their islamic rights. Also see it is not Islam who has stoped women to get education these are only local traditions and people at powers who do not want make them study so that their slaves should not reduce in numbers.

It is also to mention that what are the doings of people having prestigeous slogans of human right in Afghanistan and Iraq (more that 300000 innocent people killed and only Al Qaeda is being blamed) No one has seen Al Qaida
it is all self created for such selfish monarch dreams.

Sadiq, Hafiabad, Pakistan

I'm a secular muslim myself and I've heard the argument about the differences between Islam the religion and cultural customs in Islamic countries many times. I don't agree with this because Islam is not just a religion on the spiritual level, it is a way of life.

It is the Quran that permits polygomy. It is Islamic Sharia law that states a girl can be married off at the age of menstruation as young as 9. It is Islamic Sharia law that gives sole custody of children to their fathers upon divorce. Talagh or divorce cannot be initiated by women but men can easily divorce their wives by simply uttering the words. There is also khul': mutual divorce is seen as being initiated by the woman, but it must be accepted by the man!! If it is not accepted, divorce may only be granted by a judge under certain, relatively rare circumstances like desertion or abuse.

This is all ISLAMIC LAW and not cultural practices. So I don't understand what muslims keep crying about

Saba, Toronto, Canada

Hi Phyllis

Nothing much to say here except that I am very sorry for 2 things:
Firstly,you have married a wrong man; and
secondly, you are confused between the local tradition and Islam itself.

Obviously, you have not read the Qoran thoroughly before you got married. Thats your mistake...

Elenna, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

I struggle with why we often associate crude ways observed in Islamic countries as "Islamic". Has everyone not read the old testament regarding women, men and how society was to function under the Torah Law? Bottom line is what happens in underpriveledged third world countries have more to do with cultural customs and poverty than Islam. Be apart of the solution like Oprah is in Africa!. No, we all dont have mass money to invest but we do have energy, time, resources and people to lean upon that will make a difference. Americans are the most priveledged of people and still we are killing, raping, stealing and molesting everyday? Women are abused everyday in this great country! What's the reason behind our sickness.....Christianity? See, its easy to point the finger! Were so busy analyzing everyone elses horrendous situations and at the same time failing to address our own. Lets get educated first, then talk! We can never see the essence of a situation through ignorance!

Tia, Seattle, Washington

Flipping eck!!! what was all that about then?

headnor tail, cuckoo land, cloud

I have lived in a country that finally has an uneasy peace, Northern Ireland. I have lived for most of my life in a warzone. I suffered grievious bodily injuries in the bombing of Omagh (1998). Despite these injuries I have great respect for peoples of all colours and creeds. I firmly believe that everyone should have the right to express themselves and to freedom. If the laws of your religion, the land,or even your own personal laws (or morals) decree that you should behave in a certain manner, then it is entirely up toyou to make an infrormed decision. I will freely admit my lack of knowledge of Islam, not because of intentional avoidance, but because I have simply never met a person of the Islamic faith. What i'm trying to say is to stop the fighting before another Northern Ireland happens, or a Bosnia on a worldwide scale

R Byrne, Omagh, Northern Ireland

If more "civilized" Muslims stood up to condemn the barbarism committed in the name of Islam we would not be debating this issue. But these voices are pitifully weak. So we are left to conclude that either a) civilized Muslims don't exist, b) the extremist barbarians are indeed a major force in Islam or c) media coverage (or lack thereof) mutes the moderate voices and magnifies the extreme voices. I personally believe the "truth" is a combination of b) and c).

Peter, Houston, TX

peace be upon you(just this word enough for learn about islam).
i see that we're so dogmatism and biosimiatism !!!coz we say whatever without any knowledge ....my friend writer you have to be thinker when you study anything ..because there are defferent between islam as religion and mozlems ...all muslims countries knew the independent just in 1950s of 20centry whereas you were the bosses of all thing and you who crushed our economy ,so you coming now and tell us that we're terorists or......
all what can i say ,both you and your mainds should learn a lot of about izlam then we'll see.
due to i hav not enough time to write i shall write and communicat with thee!!!
18yold islamic teen.

yaser, kénitra, morocco

Very few people commenting here, including the 'writer' of the article, have any knowledge of Islam. Go and study Ibn Sina, whose medical treatises were used in Europe for 700 years; or read about the Mozarabs of Spain, who admired the Arabs so much that they abandoned the use of Latin for Arabic; or Ibn al-'Arabi's theory on reaching Allah through the feminine principle; or Mulla Sadra's philosophy of the transubtantial movement of the soul. It is people's knowledge and views of Islam that is barbaric and rooted in ignorance.

Alice, Tehran, Iran

Yes, dear mr. Johns, you are without doubt right, and your very western brand of self-criticism, will, I am sure, land you a nice place in heaven. These Christian 'fundamentalists' though, do not carry the hate and the desire of annihilation of the 'other', like many muslims do. Islam is very much the religious version of autism, as Claude Levi-Strauss described it half a century ago. Others are probably looked down upon with desdain, perhaps rejection, by Christian fundamentalists, and will be told of the eternal fire awaiting them in the next life. In this life though, they will be left alone, the base of rights, the right to basic freedom. If a Christian fundamentalist rejects his faith, will he be killed? Most probably not. IN Ilamic countries, he or she will. So it's good being a leftist third-world oppressed people lover, but the enemy of your enemy is possibly no better than your enemy.

Sylvain Garagnon, Sydney, NSW

The religious right are people who want to see morality and values mean something again in this society, not something that is spoken as an afterthought in some conversations. Also.. to the people that claim America is too puritan? We are number one for a reason, because we were so called "puritans".

amanda, kings park, ny

I am a christian but for a long time knew there was something more for me and that was believing in god. so last year I went on my own to sharm el Sheikh purely for a holiday. There I met the man of my dreams who said he was divorced with two children who lived in Cairo. I went home to England and after a few weeks keeping in touch with this man we both decided for me to go live there with him. I was so very happy we discussed our futures together and agreed when we both die we would be buried together in the cemetery next to his ancesters in Geiza. We would live together in paradise for ever. After a few months I started asking questions about his divorced wife who by this time had my mobile number and would sms me calling me her sister. After a few more months I asked why I never visited his family when he went. i then found out he wasn't divorced and slept with her when he visited his family. She accepted me but I could not so left heartbroken. He is now looking for other rich wimen

christine froggatt, Sheffield, England

I think the author should look a little closer to home, where there are 45 million Christian fundamentalista who are equally fanatic. The problem with any fundamentalist movement is that they always think that they are so right, and therefore everyone is so wrong. With such thinking there can be no discourse or reasoned exchange of ideas. We should not single out any one brand of fundamentalism with such a holier than thou attitude. Especially when similar thinking resides right in our own back yards.

Steve Johns, Oakville, Ontario, Canada

Actually Andreas, Athens, Grece...

Many Christians do believe the Laws they have now, are Biblical. You obviously are not from the US. Currently we have a religious right movement that wishes to instill Biblical Law. Greece is an open minded society. In the US showing a nipple on TV will get you fined...

Currently the Religious Right in the US is against the HPV vaccine. But its been approved in Islamic countries. Find out whats going on in the US regarding Evangelical Zionism. You may be just as shocked as finding out Afghanistan was at war for 30 yrs...

Harris Brio, Detroit, MI USA

I understand - I travelled alone as a woman to two Muslim countries and the level on harassment from the men reached fever pitch - most western women like to look attractive - but after that - it can leave your questioning womanhood, it was clearly more of an advantage to being a man.

The trouble with trying to get across the point about Islam to Westerners is that they don't understand, firstly, how free they are and secondly, how in bondage the Islamic world/and even places like Turkey is. We say things like - not long ago, women had it hard in the West - but this is largely academic or detached, as now we are fighting for equal wages and promotions into the boardroom. While on the other hand most women in the Islamic world can only leave the house with special permission or under arrangement.

Even those who have converted to Islam in the West, still cannot grasp the impact of the social structure of Muslims living in Islamic countries, and probably almost fantasise about what the wider Muslim world does to keep that structure or order. And there is our own issue of not wanting to offend and to be respectful of others cultures, but shouldn’t we also be able to say, that although we respect your culture and your religious beliefs, we don’t believe that you have the right to subordinate women and treat them with disrespect, anywhere. It is no surprise that the writer has found allies in former Muslims and those from the Muslim world – as for these aspects of Islam are not debatable they are a reality to them. Think, if those were our daughters, how would we act?

R Hall, London,

I do not think many westerners believe humanist laws were written in the bible. In fact, I also do not believe that weterners would like to implement biblical law in their countries.

I do not really understand why biblical law should be compared to islamic law. Fact is, there is no country which is ruled by biblical law. On the other side, the sharia is quite commomin muslim countries, or am i wrong?
And i do not know of many westerners who are demonstrating for the implementation of biblical law in secular democracies. But there are many muslims living in europe who want to use the sharia and who say that basic human rights are not compatible to their religion.

And, funny as i may seem, we evil westerners really are not stoning our wifes. A practice quite common in muslim countries, i believe. And i do not really see what ist so courteous in stoning someone.

Andreas, Athens, Grece

I always find it amusing how Jewish and Christian individuals speak of how civli thier religion is based on how they are no longer stoning someone. Unfortunatelt these individuals have a nasty habit of believing Secular Humanist Laws were written in the Bible.

More interesting is Jewish/Christians insistence that Islamic Laws be put up against Secular Laws in comparrision to Biblical Law. Islamic Law is rarely compared to Biblical Law. The Bible is truely scared.

The professor found the Afghanis enchating courteous. The reason for that courtesy. I would say in a society that is governed by its faith courtesy would have something to do with that faith. But the good professor immerdiately dismisses that faith by also informing us Aghanistan is a dangerous place. Professor, there is a war going on, a war that has lasted almost 30 years. I'm from Detroit USA, there are areas that I cannot goto because the color of my skin, not because of a 30 yr war. Consider Afghanistan gangland.

Harris Brio, Detroit, MI USA

i agree

phyliss, big city,

i am a muslim woman that has been ENLIGHTENED by the women role models that islam has presented, including Fatima, Muhammed's daughter.
islam is a religon that praises women, so please get your facts right.

Amelie, Manchester, UK

How were you able to get out of Afghanistan without your passport.

Lou VanDelman, Toronto, Ontario, Canada

If she was educated enough to become a professor, she should have been smart enough to know what entering an Islamic country/culture entailed, especially when it comes to women's' rights , or lack thereof. She should have also known that using religious doctrine is a very old and highly effective way of controlling people. Therefore, if you live in a free society, stay in it and, if you must, fight for the freedom of others from a base where your voice can be heard and may make some difference.

Tom, Woodbridge, USA

According to: http://www.saudiembassy.net/Country/Islam/IslDetail3.asp "Islam is at once a religion and a total way of life. It prescribes order for individuals, societies and governments and codifies law, family relationships, matters of business, etiquette, dress, food, hygiene and much more." I have seen the same point made elsewhere in print. If it is a correct statement, how can anyone argue that local cultural practices are to blame for what was described in the article? If Islam is "a total way of life" how can the religion not be the cause of what is done in its name?

David, London, UK

West think so, because west is suffering from a state of diseases... in which they neglect every open history book... here are some Questions (as well as answers are hidden in them)..

West think pacifism is answer to facist. they give a answer of Gandhi. beside this indian books says that Because indians participated with British to fight Nazis, this changed british and india was set free. both points are contradictory anyways, there was infact a fight(pasifism?),but fought in europe. the second question is, if Gandhi was in Jail during WW2 for creating problem (as he was linked with abwehr) , so who were those guys helping British to fight Hitler. why voice of moderate muslims are closed in asia, and why hindus who speak are tagged as radical ?

one answer also be located here, seek why indians shifted to hinduism from buddhism? perhaps your search for fall of sleeping bamiyan buddha will give you to answer of islamic history.. including the fall of pacifism next to islam.

Puneet Madaan, delhi, india

Fascinating. So it's all culture, nothing to do with Islam?
How come, then, this situation (of women languishing behind closed doors, etc) is common throughout the muslim countries, but not anywhere outside the muslim world?
Whatever were the abuses of women in the West, throuhout history, women were queens, king-makers, rebels and leaders. Name one Muslim woman-leader, or any Muslim woman from the past, whose contribution is acknowledged by Muslims.

Suzy, Cambridge,

There is something approaching a consensus in these comments that religion is open to abuse, that a (mis)interpretation can be used to further a personal or social or political agenda.
This recognition is usually a prelude to a defence of the religion, the apologist sees the fault in the practise of the individual or society.
Surely if a religion can be used as a weapon of oppression then the religion IS at fault? If that is not it's purpose - regardless of which religion it is - and most seem to have far too much wrath, violence, intolerance, superstition, double standards, hypocrisy etc not to be susceptible to sustaining bigotry, slavery, torture and mass killing.
I've read the Bible, I've read the Quran, I've read Upanishads, the book of the Dead (Egyptian and Tibetan). Self deluding wishful thinking religious fools scare me.
By the way, do I have to read Mein Kampf before I criticise the Nazis?
You can't judge a book by the cover, but you can judge a tree by it's fruit.

Kidd Garrett, Bristol, UK

This one had an overwhelming response.

Chris, London, UK

My eyes were opened to the Domestic Violence barbarity when it hit my own life and family. I did not see it coming until it actually was happening and did not know how to get out. I was a captive in my own free soil, in my home; I had fear to express my creative self. After, all that counseling and warnings out there right? There is a lot of help available... You are right, but it still happening to thousands of women today in this wonderful country that we call free USA. So wake up everybody! This problem of barbaric treatment to women in foreign countries such as Afghanistan is definitely wrong, but what about writing an article in what is hapening here and why is it still happening? I am now a survivor, and a lot stronger. I have been raising my 3 daughters on my own for the last 7 years, and we have become stronger than ever thanks to our Lord God, family and good friends.

Ana Bolt, Miami, Florida

It is shocking to hear these stories, but then what you find in poverty-stricken villages full of grossly ignorant men and women is that they live by their own laws. As a muslim its appalling that Prof. Chesler makes a generalised statement by labelling Islam as the problem rather than the sick Afghanis. We dont label christianity as a paedophilic religion just because a large handful of priests and bishops are prosecuted etc. Who is more tolerant?

Islam is being disgraced by those who have hijacked it as their label to press forward their own agendas. For every negative article there are many positives, but positive insight into Muslim lifestyles doesnt sell - only shocking and gripping news catches attention.

Religion is being used as an excuse by many for their crimes but dont blame them, blame religion(!)

When a western woman converts to Islam then that must make her suicidal for she wants to be opressed right? Is that why Yvonne Riddley converted after release from Taliban? hmm

Abdullah, London, UK

Professor Chesler, expresses these feelings well. As a Western woman who lived in the Middle East under an 'moderate' Islamic government, I can echo all her sentiments and fears. She has my utmost support.

June Maxwell, Jersey, UK

Would it be wise to judge a good car to be bad because the driver is drunk and crashes it into a wall? Certainly not! So stop judging Islam by the actions of some "Muslims". This is yet another case of so called "Muslims" using religion to suit their own selfish and evil agendas. Anyone who has studied true Islam as taught and practised by the Benevolent Prophet will acknowledge that Islam honours women and gives them rights and freedoms. It teaches that paradise lies beneath the feet of the mother, that whoever treats daughters kindly will attain paradise and, according to a prophetic saying, "The best amongst you are those who are kindest to their wives". Even Prince Charles acknowledged in a speech at Oxford, "The rights Islam gave to women 14 centuries ago were alien even to my grandmother's generation!" We condemn such barbaric treatment of women, but it is certainly very unfair to associate it with Islam when such behaviour is actually rampant in all countries and cultures.

Imran, Leeds, U.K.

Any human being that suppress women or other human being for that matter, in any fashion, is simply wrong, religion or no religion. I must agree with Umar Tarar who responded here. Islam itself, is not the problem. It is each indivdual/group, regardless of religion that participate and agree to be a part of any barbarity. If one does not wish to participate in these practices, one need only walk away from them.

Kim Randazzo, San Diego, USA

Commentators (negative) on this article keep citing the need 'to read about Islam' before criticising it. I read a lot about Islam - in the news. That news is soaked in blood, butchery and bullying. 'But the Koran says Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance'. Something's out of whack here. As for P. Chesler not having been in Kabul for 40 years, it's totally absurd to imply that things are more progressive there now, or that her Jewishness makes her unfit to comment. Islam is a stranger to the West because it enforces a collectivist culture, and the West upholds the freedom of the individual. The two are as opposed as the ancient Greeks and the Persians.

HB, Vancouver, Canada

I think before anything else one must realise that islam is practised in very different ways and interpretations around the world. Biggest message againt fanaticism on the other hand can be given with the promotion of those countries that are liberal and secular while still following islam, rather than writing articles like this that generalises across all muslims and feeds religious hatred. Particularly for a woman who has been educated this much I found the views expressed here disturbingly generalising both from an academic perspective and a humanist perspective. It is very sad that people are so ready to generalise and yes I do agree with the opinion that should Christianity be known as what Hitler did? This would be a massive mistake and to actually do it as if it was being "better" or "having better religion" simply disturbs me because I believe this would be a complete misinterpretation of what Christianity or any religion is all about when interpreted correctly!

Guldal Cimen, Manchester, UK

For intellectuals, who compare Islam in it's relation to Afghanistan to Christianity in it's relationship to the US harming the environment, wake up, smell the coffee.
The fact is what was described in Afghanistan takes place in many Muslim nations. The issues described by this poor woman, are vaslty more serious, and immediately within the ability of human beings to correct than the issue of the environment.
You rationalize craziness and that minimizes it to just another issue when in fact it is an issue that needs to be rectified NOW. What if she had been your mother?
Do your recycle thing and so will I. Don't insult us with the pathetic comparrison that the subjugation of humans to the level of animals is akin to providing oil for an economy that would die now if we halted whatever it is some believe we should halt.
Cut off the Saudis now, but don't drill to replace the oil lost while seeking better answers for the future both near and long term is a shortsighted suicide!

Don, Irvine,

"How long has it been since Britain was an entrenched Patriarchal society - on some levels it can be argued that is actually still is!"

Simply not true. Medieval women could own property and certainly weren't expected to stay indoors all the time - think Wife of Bath. Pre-modern England was certainly not perfect, but it provided the conditions in which women could work towards equal status.

Rose, Cambridge,

Professor Chesler may think her eyes are open but I rather think her mind is quite closed. She reminds me of Congreve's words in ' The mourning bride'.

N Mahmood, Enfield, UK

It's no good saying "it's not religion's fault, it's the way it's interpreted." Men make up the religion in the first place, and it tends to reflect, to a greater or lesser extent male cultural prejudices and their interests in maximising their power through hierarchies in which women are the "other" and are always ultimately under the control of men. All modern religions do this: Islam does it more than most. The Koran as drafted by Mohamed, and then as "interpreted" by male priests, produces societies where women are treated as lesser beings (women don't get to run things in these societies: they are treated as having a separate, limited domestic sphere of operation, their bodies are regarded things which are owned and controlled by specific men (fathers, brothers, husbands). They are also seen as "responsible" for the "effect" their bodies have on men. Rather than me reading the Koran, Islamists need to read some feminist writers and understand where all this misogyny comes from.

Anne Murphy, London,

Everyone says that it is the people that are the problem, not the religion... but there is a direct correlation between the people and the religion, the people that live this life where religion is the governing power, the way of life, of course religion has something to do with the problem.

This is a huge problem within a specific group of people. Why is it so hard for people to accept that?

Everyone throws blame on the West, for needing to change, to learn to accept, to learn the Koran, yet it seems it is the other country which has more needs to learn, has more needs to change... Not the West.

Emma, Central, California

Thank you for making your voice heard.

alice, Beds, UK

While the article points to many valid concerns, I fear that I find it a little light on evidence to indicate that the problems highlighted are a fault of Islam, the religion, and not the culture that coexists beside it and shapes it.
Is one equally justified at looking at Western society and and claiming that Christianity is inherently linked to environmental damage (subjugation of the natural world being one of the oldest of Judeo-Christian beliefs)?

It seems that the article shows us a correlation, but perhaps not a causality.

Jon Hodge, Beaconsfield,

The crusades was a RETALIATION for muslim atrocities, not an unprovoked aggression.

Robert Craven, Cookeville, USA/TN

The title-statement "How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Islam
Is it racist to condemn fanaticism?" might have been justified if it were stated as "How my eyes were opened to the barbarity in Afghanistan..."
Islam is not what any Muslim or a group of Muslims just practices regardless of its concordance with actual Islamic teachings. Similarly, as an example, Christianity is not what Hitler (being a Christian) did with Jews or if accounted as a cause of WWII did with 20million victims of it.
I am certain in claiming that Ms. Chesler (though what happened to her is condemnable) is not aware of what Islam in fact is and that she, in response, has only pointed out a particular culture’s/community’s appalling practices.
I would urge her to have a study on Islam to establish a fair opinion.

Umar Tarar, Islamabad,

Professor Chesler may think her eyes are open but her mind is closed. She reminds me of Congreve's words in 'The Mourning bride'.

N Mahmood, Enfield, UK

I just googled "phyllis chesler" and her wikipedia entry and her own website put her article into perspective. She lived in Kabul 40 years ago. She is Jewish, therefore not likely to be pro-Islam.

I beieve from the information on these other websites she clearly has a strong personal agenda in writing the article.

Bill Peter, Aberfeldy , Scotland

Bill Peter of Aberfeldy, Scotland wrote
"There are bad people in all religions. In addition, not all Islamic countries are the same."

This information will be very interesting for Bill Peter of Aberfeldy, Scotland, that In Malaysia, a Muslim needs government's permission to convert to other religion practiced in Malaysia, i.e. Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism. It is not the people, it is the teachings of Islam. Look at the constitutions of all the Muslim countries, you will find clauses to Muslims (in the constitutions) that they can't convert to other religions.

gandhijinnah, Karachi, Pakistan

For all the blather from those readers who have only read about Islam, or contend that people of all religions are the same, etc. etc, the fact is Christians stopped stoning women about 2,000 years ago.

susan reeves, san diego, california

Why are people prevented from criticising Islam because they haven't read the Koran, as Sarah Martin suggests? I would imagine that the vast majority of Muslims haven't read it, especially woman. Does that suggest that I cannot, as an atheist, criticise Christians because I haven't read the Bible, or Pagans because I haven't read any of their guiding literature. I can criticise any, or all, of these because they represent things that don't suit me or because they specifically represent a threat to me. I can do that in this country, as I am protected by the same law as everybody else, I cannot criticise Islam in a Muslim country, because I would risk my life.

David Leslie, Perth, Scotland

It seems to me a problem of religious power. If (as in Europe) religion is divorced from power then it becomes relatively harmless.
Why do people tolerate abuse of power in the name of religion? Ignorance and superstition is the easy answer, but when so many people's world view is dominated by antiquated erroneous "religious" ideas and beliefs is it any wonder they acquiesce?
How can this change and is education alone sufficient?
In Europe the (heroic) dictators like Henry VIII rested power from the church. It was easier to subsequently rest power from a human target (devine right of kings) and dilute it among the Barons, and easier then for subsequent generations to successively redistribute this power to all landowners, then to all voting males, and finally to all voters regardless fo sex. This has been a series of steps over hundreds of years. Each step was hard faught and had many casualties.

Bill, London, England

There are number of comments on this article indicating that Chesler has no understanding of Isam and the countries in which it presides. She married a Muslim man and lived there for an unspecified period of time. Why does she have to go to "islamic school"? Isn't first hand experience enough to allow a person to have a view?

Saying that religion and culture is unrelated is wrong. All culture is based on religion. That of the western world too. As an example, the reason there is such a thing as a working week and that few people work on Sundays is due to the fact that sunday is the day of rest according to Christianity. There are aspects of the western world which are not based on religion, but these are never justified by religion.
One also has to take into account the debate of whether there in fact is a God. Any God. In which case all religion is just culture, and nothing else.
One doesn't have to fully understand something to believe that something is morally injust.

Atheist, London,

Excellent article... correct views - Ijtihad needs to be brought back. Islam must be criticised in an open and mature fashion for it to move forward.

bravo.

Murray, London, UK

Having lived in Indonesia, I know an awful lot of Muslims. Having lived in Europe, I know an awful lot of Christians. I have met Muslims who pay lip service to their faith (drinking alcohol in private, "because if nobody sees you it's OK"), wonderful, welcoming, generous Muslims, and Muslims who yelled "Ha! Serves them right!" when 9/11 happened. I've met Christians who pay lip service to their faith (going to church only at Christmas), wonderful, welcoming, generous Christians, and Christians who stop talking to people when they find out they have the "wrong" sexuality/race/nationality, even if they've known them for years.

It is true, Christianity has advanced more than Islam, but it does take all sorts, and you can't judge people by their faith.

Starling, Lancaster, UK

Islam is NOT the problem - people are. There are bad people in all religions. In addition, not all Islamic countries are the same. I have lived in 2 - Kuwait for 3 years; 1979 to 1982 and Malaysia since 1993 to date. They are very different countries to the one described in the article, and I would recommend Malaysia to anyone, although Kuwait is only really good for younger people wanting to save a bit of money.

Bill Peter, Aberfeldy , Scotland

From reading all the comments here it seems clear that any Western criticism of Islamic society, cannot have any weight as long as we continue to have a limited knowledge of the Quoran. Muslims have the right to refute criticism with the simple phrase "read the Quoran", they are absolutely correct.

I believe that Islamic society should be able to bear the weight of criticism, the fact that mistreatment of women has no place in the Quoran means that it is the society that is at fault not the religion which has become a scapegoat both for the western critics of Islamic society and for its fanatical defenders.

All societies can be criticised, all societies must be if we are to advance, but criticism needs to come from a place of profound knowledge if it is to have any impact. The Western world needs to educate itself if it is ever to have any meaningful dialogue with its muslim brothers and sisters.

Sarah Martin, Lille, France

As usual everyone is blaming religions. This is not a problem of religion; it is man's interpretation of what they believe a religion to be that is the problem. Religion is created and shaped and influenced and changed my people, individuals, you. Religions only exist because you believe them. One day when we realise religions are childish and foolish creations of man (as we believe the ancient Greek and Inca gods to be) and we allow our children to grown up as humans, before indoctrinating there minds with fanciful and supernatural ideas, only then will we understand that we are all “jock tamson’s bairns” (quote-Robert Burns) i.e. we are all related and inter and co dependent wherever we are on this little blue planet. I hope you all have a happy healthy and peaceful day.

Alan , Newmarket, suffolk

To understand Islam, reading the Koran is insufficient. Best is to read, in parallel, one of the collections of Hadiths (stories or quotations from the life of Mohammed), for example the collection made by Al Bukhari - available on the internet. A Christian parallel to the Hadiths would be the Acts of the Apostles, or the Epistles.

And having done that, make your mind up as to what is the product of religion, and what the product of local custom.

NL, Brussels, Belgium

Bravo, Phyllis! You are absolutely correct with your views. I am sorry that so many so-called "intellectuals" resort to calling you names and state, as above, that your article is "destructive." I do think, that sometimes, individual experiences can become a portrayal of truth in culture that helps us to understand a wider view. Your experience is such an example.

The bottom line is that any system that either disregards or persecutes people in such a way that they can never become the unique, beautiful person they truly are - full of gifts and talents, and use them to make a difference in our world - is an oppressive, evil system. My goal as a teacher each day in my high school classroom is to try to give my students the tools they need to really think and assess what they read, hear, and see.
This is why stories such as yours need to be told. They highlight the day-to-day realities that people live with in oppressive regimes around the world. Thank you for telling the truth.

Vicki Moore, M.M., Bakersfield, CA

With the large number of comments this article has received it appears that the writer has acheived exactly the response she wanted when in choosing the title...well done to her.

RP, Sydney, Australia

How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Islam
Is it racist to condemn fanaticism?

With the above I think you have to go back to Islamic school and other religions then we can talk. At the moment you have the grudge towards Isalm. That is not reporting. It is teaching me wrong tricks of trade.

Thank you

Firozali A. Mulla MBA PhD, Dar-Es-Salaam, Tanzania

I think what people lack is background knowledge to support their argument hence belive what they are told, either by media or rare cases such as these.
One should take the initiative to overcome their ignorance, before coming to any conclusions and labelling religion as 'barbaric'.
Honestly speakin i had very similar views about islam before i done some background reading. to get all your queries answered about islam and its teachings visit, : http://www.alislam.org i was recomended to this site y a friend and now my eyes have truely opened to the world of islam and to learn more about women in islam check out http://www.alislam.org/library/WOMANINISLAM.pdf

mashooka, london,

Thank you Ms. Chesler for having the courage to speak out. Much more courage will be required for civilized people to keep their heads attached to their necks. We have to be ever vigilent to guard against extremists. Some Islamists have pointed out that they have freedoms, but how many of them have denounced terrorism? It's always the fault of the victim who was blown up be a terrorist. It's time for Islam to enter the 21st century and for the followers of Islam to take responsibility for their actions.

Christopher Sexton, San Diego, California

This is very much a biased and unobjective view of issues.It is important for non-muslims to distinguish between the principles of Islam and the activities of muslims. Undoubtedly, muslims make mistakes in their interpretation of Islam and in its practice. But let us remember Hitler wasnt a muslim, neither was Mussolini or several other world tyrants. Let us remember that christians perpetrated acts of disdain against muslims in the crusades. Remember the oppression of muslims by Israel. There may be a thousand Bin Ladens or Al-Zarqawis-that doesnt make their actions Islamic. The simple fact is humans have an inherent Good or Evil and irregardless of our faith, we can choose where to belong. Islam teaches good, some muslims do good, others dont. The same rule applies to Christianity or Judaism. The scale of application is a different matter that proves nothing

Ade, Reading,

No one denounces Christianity? You just did. Mischaracterization of Biblical Christianity is continually used to justify anti-Christian bigotry.

The Qur'an overtly commands the use of force in "converting" infidels and suppressing women. Christianity, conversely, commands its followers to simply "preach" the Gospel...

Yes, the Bible says wives should submit themselves to their husbands, but this is not the same as subserviance! Besides, this describes the marriage relationship, not societal structure. The Bible also commands the husband to love and honor his wife, and, unlike the Qur'an, is full of praise for honorable women.

It's no coincidence that the history of the "liberation" of women (at least by comparison to "non-western" societies) follows so closely the history of the propagation of Christianity.

M. Shedley, St. Paul, MN / USA

My heart breaks as I read the account of Ibn Warraq. In America, we are a divided nation, with many intent on tearing us down from the inside. I live surrounded by those who enjoy tremendous freedom and yet they remain silent about the true oppression of women and dissenters around the world. I hear daily about the horrible oppression at home in America, yet this from those who have never experienced hunger, physical beatings or loss of personal freedom.
America is far from perfect, but I stand with Churchill's assessment that Democracy is the worst form of government, except all others. (paraphrased). May freedom reach the people of Afghanistan.

Jeff Damon, San Antonio, USA

Chesler might to do well to actually have some knowledge about Islam, and women who practice the before painting the entire Muslim world with the brush of 'intolerance' and 'barbarism'. Quite frankly, it shows complete ignorance and whats more - for a supposedly intelligent woman, Cheslar fails to make a distinction between barbaric cultural practices, and what Islam actually says, In addition, why does Chesler not talk about the socio/pol/eco situation of a country like Adghanistan which by default has an impact on how society is organised.

How long has it been since Britain was an entrenched Patriarchal society - on some levels it can be argued that is actually still is!

So please, can we try and be intelligent and learn not to jump on the bandwagon without having full and inclusive knowledge about Islam and Muslims.

Maria, London,

i think that Islam is an abused religon; abused by its so called followers. It is people such as those mentioned in this article that blacken Islam's image by their, quite frankly, disgusting attitude that completely violates Islamic law. For a non-muslim to understand Islam, it is necessary that they look at Islamic theory before they look into how muslims actually practise the religon. In the East, tradition is the ruling force, rather than religon; I am afraid that some have twisted Islam in a way that backs up their traditional beliefs... so that they can treat women as second class for example.
Of course, some muslims do proudly practise the less refined religon, the true version, these muslims have been refferred to as the 'moderate' muslims... moderate as all muslims are supposed to be, after all, the message of Islam did bring reform to an uncivilised nation in Arabia all those years ago - a people that used to bury their newborn daughters alive. Some don't learn!

Amelie, Manchester, UK

To me the article is a much more simple issue than most here would admit to in the West. The fact that women were treated as second class citizens in most of the world up until the end of the 19th century, not just under Islam. Remember that they only received the vote in the US/UK in the early part of the 20th centuary and that their property brought into marriage was considered belonging to the man from that time forward. This is about bigotry, ignorance, povery and maybe human rights but not religion. Look to your own culture before condeming others. Also how a so called educated person could get them into this position is beyond me but it is not the preserve of only women, men do all the time too.

P Mudge, Princeton, NJ USA

I am rather tired of the current fashion of describing Afghanistan in medieval terms. I was born in Kabul in the mid fifties. I never saw my mother or my 3 aunts wear a chadori(burqa). My aunts were all educated and taught physics and chemistry in schools around Kabul. My father had one wife, he is now 76. I dont have a single contemporary relative who had to suffer the indignity of a second marriage or wife.

I have no idea where this lady was living or how westernised her husband was. The Afghanistan I knew was not particularly religious, the mullahs were regularly ridiculed by schoolkids and others. Particular derision was reserved for Brotherhood muslims who were considered pawns in the hands of Arabs.

All this fundamentalist Islam is a relatively recent occurence in Afghanistan. Starting with the Russian invasion. Lets not forget, under the auspices of the US Afghanistan is now an Islamic Republic. It was not an Islamic anything when there was a monarchy.

ghiass, Camberley, UK

Democracy and Freedom are everybody's right.

These Muslim countries need to change and adapt to
meet the hopes and ambitions of their people.

when did you ever hear of somebody from a Christian country seeking asylum in a muslim country, never.

chris , stafford, england

Phylis
The behaviour of many Muslims toward their wives has nothing to do with Islam. I woulg suggest you explore tribal customs of doing things in order to get a grasp of why some Muslim men behave as such.
I am a Muslim married to a christian, have never forced my opinion on her, or mistreated in any shape or form; do you know why? because Islam thaught me that coercion of anyone to adopt my Islamic ways, is in fact committing a sin, that treating my wife humanly & leniently is morally expected of me. Your sad experience does in no way reflect the teachings of Islam. Put bias aside and you will see that many .customs in Islamic society and that includes the barbaric act of female circumcision are in actual fact Unislamic in their core.

Abdelghani Mechita, London, UK

I find it deeply ironic that the only fools writing in defence of the situation presented in this article are EITHER male Islamo-apologetics, or "western" women with thier collective heads in the sand. As much as I've read on this subject I have YET to see a muslim woman FROM that culture rise to it's defence...I'm sick of listing to mulsim men justify the culture of brutality towards women by pointing out the shortcomings in Western culture, and equally tired of listing to western "feminists" whine about glass ceilings while blithely defending this barbarism with a "well that's their culture" attitude. In fact, based on the postings from many of these "feminists" they would argue that a woman in a mini skirt was raped because she "asked for it" by wearing something so revealing. Clearly men do not have a corner on the double-standard market...

TS, Redding, CA,

Many may think the west is 'promiscuous', so what?
The point is that it's a choice.

robin, LONDON, u.k.

Oppressive or not it's just the way Afghanistan has always been. If the women there are really so unhappy, sooner or later they will seek changes. It's just that the author has experienced something "better" that she wants Afghan to change for the "better". I personally don't think westerners living a promiscuos life is good either. But it's just cultural difference. To stick your nose into ppl's business is probably why ppl in the Middle East act in a certain why. Take responsibility for that, and be more open minded! Generalising the ppl there as, as you put it, "barbaric", and communicating it in such an untactful way is non the wiser too. How ridiculous it is for you to think that you are "enlightened" too. Maybe you are barbaric too, but in a different way.

arctanck, Reading, UK

You are all worshipping non-existant supernatural beings
as you fear the inevitable.

One day the dear earth will be free of this backward lunacy

John, Denver, US

To portray Israel as an innocent victim is a clear indication that the hardship and brutality the author has endured has completely clouded her judgment. Israeli policies concerning Palestinians is Apartheid--any rational person can see that. Note I said policies. There are many, many Israelis who wish to live in peace with their neighbors. That being said, as a Muslim, I cannot tell you the sadness, no depsair I feel when I see how Islam is being destroyed from within. But articles such as these only lend fuel to unfair stereotypes. The inhumanity she describes is cultural not religious. religion is merely a pretext to oppress others. But I feel, ultimately, this is an irresponsible,simplistic article. And very destructive.

Sharbari, Darien, CT

I believe the title of this article should have been 'How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of the Afghans Taleban'. Harsh treatment to women clearly contadicts the teaching of Islam.

Fadzllah, B.S. Begawan, Brunei

The experience of the author is another testimony of the terrible treatment women have to support in countries ruled by the islamic law. The case of Ayaan Hirsi Ali in Holland and her extraordinary book The caged virgin shows the reality of the suffering women and the lack of human rights they support in countries ruled by the sharia.
I agree with the author when she defends her rigth to critizice fundamentalism. Doing ith this she is not committing any act of racism but defending our western societies from fanaticism and from the intention of radical islamists to impose their ideas to the rest of the world.

Jaime Jankelevich, Santiago,

The amount of denial of reality in some of the comments only makes Dr. Chessler's comments more valuable. Islam is intertwined with the Afghan culture and it gives legitimacy to the barbaric behavior that she experienced. Shar'ia is the recognized legal system of the society in which she found herself, and, it props up and perpetuates the tortuous lives of all women who must live under it. A self-criticism by the Muslims might allow some enlightenment into these dark corridors. And for those of you who wish to blame the "West" or Dr. Chessler, herself, for the brutality of generations--yes, we in the West have made terrible mistakes, but, we look at them, in the light of day for all to see, and try to correct them. The same thing cannot be said of those cruel purveyors of 7th century justice in Afghanistan, and too many, Muslim nations.

Robin Dean, Philadelphia, PA/USA

Culture and religion contribute to the advancement of a people and society. Culture and religion contributes to the downfall or stagnation of a culture or people.
During the last 200 years, no great inventions, discoveries, social reforms, cultural movements, economic or scienctific advancements came out of the Islamic world. Islam has never produced a Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Edison, Tesla, Lincoln, Marconi, Yeats, or Dickens. The gross nation product of Singapore is greater than all of the Islamic countries put together.
To be fair, Islam did have a golden age during the middle ages while western Europe was in a dark period. What Happened? Western culture experienced an enlightenment. Church and State began to seperate. It took centuries, but it opened up new freedoms, opportunity, thought processes, and incentivies for discoveries. If Islam does not have an age of enlightenment, it will continue to be stagnate and continue to blame others for its failures.

Bruce, Minneapolis, USA

hell hath no fury like a woman scorned...

John, Nottingham,

Interesting but not a new addition to what we already know about islamic countries. The question is to define if islam is a faith or a political idealogy, in defence of it, I found out Muslims always define it as a religious of peace (Faith). Yet the same person can not accept Islam with out its political influences in initiation of wars, discrimination against member of community or outsiders,etc. (Idealogy). There is no doubt about use of Islamic faith by goverment and power players as a political gel, yet abusing its very base (Quran) to justify violation of basic human rights. As world grow smaller thanks to unremitting pace of advances in telecommunication and information technology I see more and more human right activist among muslims reach out and challenge the sensitive subject of sanctity of Islamic fundamentals. I hope their effort lead to what I believe would be an Islamic renaissance, and kick start end of dark ages in islamic countries.

Babak, Manchester,

Phyllis Chesler's editorial reminds me of the great similarities between different fundamentalisms almost in spite of which holy books they happened to use. As I read, I recalled tales of women fleeing fundamentalist Mormon Muslims on this side of the pond in Arizona and Utah. I conclude there is no such thing as a "better" fundamentalism; only movements in which the greater the need for everybody to sound like they believe the same thing, the greater the terror and hypocrisy used to make it look that way.

George Wolf, Gaithersburg, MD, USA

As usual the religious conservative right are quick to jump to the defence of an antiquated 'culture'. The debate has nothing to do with whether or not islam is peaceful, it is about the gulf between civilisations (and I use the term in the loosest sense) of the West and East. In Britain we pride ourselves on equality and liberty and are quick to chastise anyone, within our own community, with contradictory views. Yet so many seem unable to realise that intolerance, bigotry and theocracy consume so many people in other, particularly muslim, countries. Instead of criticising the author for an entirely justified opinion she should be commended for highlighting a serious problem. If no one challenged dogma then we would still live in serfdom, it is time for politicians to spread democracy regardless of whether its good financially. To the muslims/arabs who have criticised this, you are an embarrasment to my gender and the reason why feminism is still neccessary in the 21st century.

Philip J Sparrow, Lancaster, England

Misogyny is not a product of the middle east, and it is not a product of Islam itself. These social structures are based on local custom and tradition, and the more conservative inhabitants of the area automatically assume that "tradition" and "religion" are synonymous. For example, if we look at the treatment of women in China a hundred years ago, when polygamy was still an acceptable institution and women were only valued for their ability to bear sons, we can see that mysogyny is not a part of Islam. Look at Saudi Arabia, a strict Islamic state- they just passed a law enforcing equal pay for working women. Throughout history, in all cultures, the wealthy have emphasized their privileged status by restricting their women, by keeping them cloistered or restricting their movement or altering their physiques (e.g. promoting obesity as "beautiful", foot binding) to render them unfit for work. Much of the world moves on, the Middle East lags behind and people in the West blame Islam!

Brittany Shannahan, Oxford, MD, USA

Prof. Chesler is right to say that "[o]ur abject refusal to judge between civilisation and barbarism, and between enlightened rationalism and theocratic fundamentalism, endangers and condemns the victims of Islamic tyranny." It also endangers the rest of us, since the stated goal of the Islamicists is to impose their system on the whole world.

But is the solution for more people to become fundamentalist Christians, as many of the comments on this article suggest? The Islamic theocracies of the Middle East display religious fundamentalism at its most horrific, but the Christian theocracies of the Dark and Middle Ages weren't much better. The choice is not between Islam and Christianity, but between mysticism and rationality, God and life.

Valda Redfern, BRADFORD-ON-AVON, UK

Islam needs exactly what happened to Christianity centuries before- reform. Is it still right to mistreat women and cut their civil rights to protect an outdated religion? All this author is stating is her point of view and from what can be seen here is that she is called an islamophobe. I think that those making the comments above should stop and listen rather than judge as quickly as possible. She has lived through it- you haven't.

John Smith, London, Great Britain

No wonder the world is in such a mess, such a barrage of muddled thinking, and these are people who think enough of their thoughts to want to share them. Thank you Times, I assume you have edited as little as possible on these messages in order to make the debate open and representative. I have to say it is worrying to see exactly what is represented. For people to say the repression of women in Afghanistan can be equated with the sex trafficking that can be discerned in, for example, Amsterdam, is too much to swallow; equating a cultural norm with a serious criminal act?
A religion that declares itself a revealed truth is never going to be self-consistent AND open to rational discourse, criticism, growth and change in the way that some "reformers" would like, look at the examples afforded within Xtianity. Reliance on belief as the foundation of a religion denies the options which are available to people who are allowed to think for themselves, tragic, isn't it?

Kidd Garrett , Bristol, UK

Surely this article should have been called "How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Afghan Tribalism."

A Tribalism that the CIA funded for a long long time.

There are problems with individuals, with families, with groups, with societies even. However it never ceases to amaze me how these difficulties then form our whole image of the religion of 1.5 billion people.

I know plenty of white, western Christian women who have a rough ride, suffer domestic violence, get treated badly. We do not tar the whole of Western society or Christianity with that brush.

Go to Japan - Crown Princess Masako is suffering from depression because she can't produce a male heir. Where's the tirade about Japan and Buddhism...

If we treated people as individuals and stopped painting all communities with one brush, we might get away from the two dimensional entrenched stereotypes of each other and find ways to get along.

Sarah, London, UK

yes as westerners we must stand up and say what is happening in the name of Islam to women is wrong regardless of whether it is based on religion or culture. But we must start in our own country by not being frightened of saying that certain practices are wrong and will not be tolerated in a society where men, women and homosexuals are all equal. We must also realise that fundamentalist Islam is as much a political movement as a religious one and we must be allowed to criticize the religion where we see it clashing with our own values without being accused of racism or blaspheming.

Miranda Forrester, Tysoe, Warwickshire

You are right what you said. Education is an important issue in the Muslim world. But please do not forget not all of the Muslims are barbar. We enjoy in Turkey all the rights what European or American women are entitled to.

cagla, Ankara, Turkey

Gerry, I find it appalling to see (dogmatic) religion in such a glorious light in the 21st century. Not all of them are equally cruel and gore, but to think that Christianity is absent of bestialities is a misconception (read e.g Deuteronomy 13:7-11 or Sam Harris' books). Ms. Chesler is absolutely right, we must defend secularist , Western values or be washed away by medieval hordes.

Balint, Budapest,

Although I fully understand and sympathise with the plight of women who suffer in the name of religion, I can't help feeling that is the people who condone these acts, not the whole religion, that should take the blame.

I admit I have not read the Qu'ran, but I'm sure that it does not condone such treatment of anyone, regardless of gender - it may say something about how men should be above women, but then again, so does the Bible! It is not the religion itself, but the people who abuse its teachings and twist them to their own advantage that are to blame for this sort of occurence.

How is this any different from Christians attempting to 'cure' homosexuals of their 'illness'? Yet no one denounces Christianity as an 'evil' religion, understanding that it is not the religion that is wrong, but those who misinterpret its message. There is nothing wrong with Islam, it is those who abuse it who should take the blame.

Ellie, Birmingham,

SR from Kabul quotes the now familiar mantra in defense of his culture " Islam is the religion of peace ".

If only! - why is it that in so many countries, where Islam is the predominant religion ,there is and always has been, so much trouble, intolerance and barbarism between the various sects of Islam?

tw, shrewsbury, uk

For a distinguished academic and feminist to take such a position a this is to open herself to a wide variety of criticisms. I have admired Ms. Chesler's writings for many years. Still, I think we must separate tribal customs or cultural practices from the religion that can be (mis)used to support them. You see, I don't think it matters terribly whether you mistreat others because of your interpretation of the Koran, the Christians' Bible, or the Torah (or the Rig Veda or anything else for that matter). The crime is the lack of regard for human rights, the acceptance of violence against women, and the knee-jerk assertion that calling something part of your religion places it beyond question or examination. As long as a significant majority of Islamic scholars and leaders collude with barbaric tribal customs that subordinate women, they're tarring the religion of peace with a dark brush indeed.

Naomi, Ashburn, USA/Virginia

Melanie. Yes Christianity has done so as well but only when misguided by their leaders. it in itself does not profess this anger towards ANY other culture or religion , it is not written in its teachings. where as Islam DOES profess "kill the Infidels" and in todays world Christianity or ANY other religion that exist other than Islam and satanism, try to teach peace and forgiveness!! How many Christians have strapped themselves with explosives and walked into a shopping center? How many Buddhist have fired RPG's towards civilian aircraft? How many Hindus have prepared IED's on the side of the road to kill indiscriminately? Please I implore you to open your eyes and call a spade a spade. No one is scapegoating any one , they are just calling it like they see it, it is pathetic that in the 21st century people of ANY religion are willing to kill ANYONE in the name of their (misguided) religion!!!! I personally find it sad for this world to have people like yourself turn a blind eye.

Gerry, St. john, Antigua, WI

I work in Afghanistan, in Kabul...it is even worse than you portray. Arranged marriages between first-cousins, brother and half sister, are common at all levels of this society. The rich readily exploit the poor and they will lie, cheat, and steal if given the slightest opportunity. This truly is a depraved, heathen nation.

Afghan Rebel, Kabul, AF

Anyone who has questions about the simple basis of Chistianity should see Mel Gibson's "The Passion of Christ". The truths uttered by Jesus and His forgiveness during torture unto death may help some understand the true depth of his way. He was a victim of unimaginable terrorist torture, and did not hate his tormentors.

John, Hudson,

To balance the argument, please have a look at todays story in the Independent:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/article2338358.ece

Essentially, 3 in 4 women in Liberia are raped. Many girls, some as young as 3 have been raped.

Last time I checked, Liberia was overwhelmingly (98%)Christian. However, only a bufoon would suggest that this was down to the Christian religion.

Samuel, UK,

I think her point was Islam is not the religion of peace. It is a violent religion that abuses women because of their gender. Whether it is culture or country it is wrong. Christianity does not preach perversion and that is ludacris, people, individuals preach it and I will say this in closing. I would rather have Christianity preach perversion than Islam beheading and shooting women because God made them with a Vagina. It's sick and twisted.

Robert, Fargo,

I agree with nearly everything said in this great article, except for the following: 'a “noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine” '.

I will go the extra, profoundly unpopular step and say even this is impossible for Islam. Those followers of Islam who are people of good will would do well to free themselves of it entirely, and become followers of Christ.

This happens a lot more than the western media lets on. Many would do it who simply don't have opportunity yet. The core of genuine support for Islam, overall, is probably amazingly soft. It's a semblance of a religion, one ripe for a fall.

Many prophecies from Western Christian mystics point to a re-Christianization of the West under one king, and a war against Islam and Russia, which the West will win. I see the beginning of all this soon.

Mike Burns, Clovis, USA/ New Mexico

Generalising and making no apologies for it, If I criticize a Christian for their beliefs, I can do it on pretty strong terms without fear of unduly emotive or even threatening reprisals. They might even be quite curteous along the lines of, "well, nothing about my religion is beyond debate."

If I criticize a Muslem for their beliefs, on equally strong terms, why do I feel I may be subjected to outright abuse or some other illiberal response? Is it because Muslims tend to feel that their religion is perfect and therefore not subject to debate?

Read her (perfectly liberal and sensible) article again and note how it finishes not with some militant call to bomb Afghanistan but to promote the notion that what we NEED is the freedom to DEBATE ALL THIS RATIONALLY by making judgements on matters without being pigeonholed as reactionary / anti-this / pro-that.

Adam, London,

Interesting article.
However if the writer is waiting for Western (liberal) intellectuals to defend dissidents she will wait a very long time
Courage is not one of their greatest attributes

charlie, hereford,

What ignorance of the roots of our own culture and bigotry against so called "religions" which some of those writing clearly know nothing about. Whether we like it or not, Islam stands light years away from all that our culture stands for. It is different, and admittedly has good points. But without the religion started "2000" years ago etc. we would not have the democracy and freedom of speech to be exchanging views as we are - get your history books out.

Sue O'Brien, London, UK

I am amazed to see such a weak and unrelated article being published. Meanwhile I am surprised a professor has written the piece which indicates the fact that she lacks adequate information about such a big religion (Islam). Initially; her title of the story "Barbarity of Islam" is quite disgusting which only sows seeds of hatred among people of different religions throughout the globe. Secondly; she must know that Islam is the religion of peace and has granted women not only equal rights but a honourable position in the society.Whoever commits misdeeds under the pretext of Islam are not called Muslims.
Yes; it should be noted that Afghans take pride in their history that they prepetually defeated foriegn invaders namely the Britishers and the Former Soviet Union. If it was not Afghanistan, by now, communism was prevailing in almost of the world.

iliterate professor! make sure you can distinguish between behaviour of an individual and culture and religion of a nation.

S.R, Kabul , Afghanistan

This Lady went through a difficult situation, yet there are many critics... Thank you for the insight, it took true courage to write this, and I'm glad you made it through unharmed. May the Holy Ghost make His way into your Life.

Chris, Houston, Texas

Islam, which is as I read the Q'ran, a religion of peace. It is what some fundamentalists make of it that causes the trouble, a charge that could also be laid against Christianity. Much of the rant above is not about Islam, but culture and customs, so that the title is unjustifiable.

Tom Fallowfield, Braemar,

Mam I am really surprised to read views of Islam brutality by such learned! Females like you. I think it is if ones future husbands father has 21 wives no sorry girlfriends 3 children many aborted. I think it is good for a 10 year female to date with males and use contraceptives to avoid pregnancy but very shameful to declare that at ‘13 I am still Virgin. Is this freedom or beasteality /hypocrisy. Mam before generalizing it to any religion one try to look into ones own culture. One should be proud of its Culture but should not look with disdain other culture or religion . Rigt to speech should not be hurt other feelings. AMEN

Dr Ali Jafar Abedi, Aligarh, India

I married a man, I knew nothing about.

I moved to a country, I knew nothing about.

I verbal attack a country and its religion because of mistakes I made.

Congratulations...You just fueled a stereotype of what an American is.

Rod Bell, Newton-Le-Willows,

It seems some would rather turn the focus of the discussion away from Muslim women and onto the evils of the west. Also, some are of the opinion that you didn’t do your homework so it’s all your own fault. How pleasant. That does rather miss the point of how women native to Islamic countries who lack any kind of choice are treated, of course.

Ed, Valencia, Spain

I would agree with most of your sightings in Afghanistan. Please do not forget that you willingly went into a country where the rule of law is nothing but deragotory for women.

There's no doubt that things are extremely bad in many parts of Afghanistan but not to forget that whatever was going on & is going on there has a lot to do with illiteracy.

A lot of people there don't understand Islam properly or they take its meaning to its extreme. Just like we got extremists or fundamentalists in every society, we got some bad apples in our society as well.

As far as the apartheid between the opposing sexes is concerned, well there's a religious and logical side to it. That doesn't mean that women and men are completely separated but in terms of sexuality. It's good for the society or else we know what can happen when you have an extreme liberal society like the Western society where half of the people get kids without a marriage and the future of those kids is ruined.

Umer Sheikh, Lahore, Pakistan

My dear, being a Muslim or following real Islam are 2 completely different things. A lot of things going on ( like in Afghanistan ) are done because of local customs and traditions rather than Islam itself. Islam is the religion that has given utmost respect to a women as a mother, wife, sister and daughter and at least that's what the real preachings are. Now if people dont follow that or twist things around to suit themselves it does not mean Islam is barbaric.

As far as your case is concerned, i can understand a bitter experience in life has left its scars on you and understandably so but blaming Islam is not the right thing to do as you probably made a mistake yourself. Women from here cant adjust in countries like Pakistan ( that is far more developed ) let alone you went to Afghanistan. The man probably needed a passport and you gave him that.

Tthousands of men in Britain every year beat up their wives and they are not Muslims. would you Accuse ISLAM for that as well....

Danish Aziz, Slough, UK

I agree with the ideas raised in the comments that you have incorrectly based your judgment on an entire religion of nearly 1.2 billion people with your analysis on a country that barely constitutes 2.5% of that total. Afghanistan has been war torn and has lacked a sound economic and social structure for a very long time now so such 'barbarism' comes as no surprise. It often pays off to do research on Islam (or any religion for that matter) by oneself.. Overall - quite unfortunately, a classic case of gross generalization in the above article

M. Lehmann, New York City, USA

It's so good to know that Muslims have gathered together to counteract the hatred spread by fanatics. Let's see if they get any major media coverage or will just be marginalized. After all, violence and destruction make news not the coming together of moderates with an agenda of understanding and personal religious freedom.

Carily, Bonneau, USA/SC

Wow, the comments are back. Will they stay? Being able to see just 10 comments at the time completely skews the discussion (did you read all 215 comments, Melanie?).

You're talking about the past now, Melanie. The Christians are a lot more enlightened now than they were during the cruisades and the Spanish inquisition. Maybe in another 500 years (eek!), the Muslims will be the same, who knows (note: I'm not overly fond of either Christianity or Islam, to be honest).

Starling, Lancaster, UK

I sympathize with the writer, for the conditions she had to face after marriage. I can imagine how dreadful and terrible it must have been. But at the same time I completely disagree with the Title of this News..."How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Islam".
You cant generalize Islam as being barbaric because of the epxerience with one person. In fact Islam teaches to treat mothers / wife / sisters / or any other female with utmost respect.It teaches to refrain from verbally / physically abusing person(s).

It is not the religion , it is due to ignorance and misinterpretations of the teachings that certain people start behaving in certain ways in the name of religion.

Sals, London,

What Phyllis Chesler write is true and under the eyes of everybody, still our decadent Western society hates itself so much that denies anything to do with Islam and blames as always the US and Israel as the Evil ones. I will suggest a good book to understand Islam, called "The rage and the pride" by Oriana Fallaci, in Italy alone she sold a million copy even if the Leftish TVs and the newspapers tried their best to portray Ms Fallaci as a racist.

Valerio, London, uk

It would appear that most people criticising Phyllis are either Muslims living in a nice, safe western society, who are protected by the law (as opposed to being suppressed by Sharia) or those that seem to think that Phyllis should have Googled her husbands family to find out what they are really like. Presumably she took the assurances that her husband gave her at face value, after all, he was her husband and she loved him, but should have disbelieved every word he said. Those supporting the article are also mostly living in a safe, western society, where they are free to criticise, without fear of death, wouldn't dream of having their wifes passport removed and who generally treat their partners as equals, without feeling the need to blame everything on Israel. Unfortunately, should this country ever become a Muslim country, these privations will be visited upon millions of women, and the result of appeasement by other religious leaders and government ministers takes us that way.

David Leslie, Perth, Scotland

I think that the title of the article is a bit misleading because the experiences in the article were cultural and not religious. It does seem strange that the writer did no research about her future husband or home at all. To move somewhere without any knowledge about the place seems irresponsible for a person who has been to college and is planning to make such a drastic step.
Also I don’t know why Israel was mentioned in the article, it has nothing to do with what is being discussed. I think the lesson is to have more knowledge about a place before making the drastic step of moving there.

Mariam , London, England

Hey Ayse,
"kill the unbeliever wherever you find them........"
Now where did I read that, was it the Bible or was it the Koran?
If you dont know, perhaps Asim could enlighten us.

david, london, England

Hey David,

"Kill the Jews wherever you find them" was ordered when the Jews of Madina having entered into a contaract with the Muslims that required them to fight the enemies of Muslims along with Muslims joined hands with the non Muslims who had attacked the Muslims of Madaina.

In war situations people were/are shot on the spot by their own even when they just refuse/refused to attack the enemy because they are scared or cannot kill another human being.

M S Sheikh, London, UK

are there any positive views on islam, we can debate?

colin, burton, uk

I'm reading all the above comments and I think it is pathetic to see so many people in the 21st century with the ideas you are displaying. It's easy to target muslim in this day and age as they are the scapegoat for everything. Whereas we Christians who are so forgiving and have never historically converted by the sword or killed people in the name of Jesus are so much more openminded and 'enlightened'. It is a disgrace. And anyone who has any rservations about the possible horrors of our own religion and culture needs only to look at the old US of A and it will all become clearer.

Melanie, Leeds, UK

You're not a racist or an islamophobe. But you need to get a grip on yourself...

First up, you married somebody it turned out you didn't know properly. Don't fret, it happens all the time. Even in same-culture marriages. Don't get bitter.

Second up, is Afghanistan barbaric because it is politically and economically backward, because it is muslim, or because of its own indigenous customs?

Personally, I don't know. But nor do you, really. You're rather glib in attributing causes to what you don't like. Not every muslim is like Afghanistan.

Marcus, London,

I couldn't agree more with you - this liberal acceptance and guilt about all things African and/or Islamic is dreadful. We see the same things happening in South Africa and Zimbabwe - where are all those Western liberals and intellectuals who campaigned against white rule? Do they now condemn the dreadful corruption and mismanagement of these countries now.

michelle, durban,

I think title must be like this "How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of AFGHAN MAN " .
You did two biggest mistakes of your life , married to a MAN without meeting his family ( you already knew his is afghan )
Second you decided to move to afghanistan to live with charming, seductive and Westernised Afghan Muslim ( MAN) without doing proper research about his friends and family in afghanistan for me is strange to do it like that and i suppose you already knew about women suffering in iran , india ,afghanistan , peru , colombia , Etc. any way i suppose after your adventure trip you have good story .

Mark, Gdansk, Poland

It sounds harsh - but buyer beware.

Danny of Adelaide, adelaide, Australia

I have to question the role of Islam versus the local cultural norms being barbaric - what passed as Islamic writ in Afghanistan and Pakistan does not appear significant in Turkey or Tunisia for example. At the same time, it is evident that selective teachings within Islam do have a role in promoting barbarism in these areas.

Andy, London, UK

In no religion is there a requirement for religious buildings, religious organisations, dress regulation, mass worship. Religions, atheism, agnosticism, philosophy, are and should remain just ones own personal beliefs. Their transformation into sects, with all the trimmings is what has caused the majority of wars for the past 2000+ years.

Graham, St.Cyprien, France

It is telling that meny of the comments condemming the article are written by moslems who live in non moslem countries.
Moslem women in the west should remember, they are protected by western law not sharia !

Why do westerners defend a releigion that they would never live under ?
No womens rights
No Gay rights
No freedom of speech
No democracy
No expensive posh wine
What total hypocrites.

Yes women may convert to islam in the west, they also have the right to convert out of it without being killed for apostacy !

You have to accept there is a problem before you can try to solve it.
The cry of racism is hollow.
Why don't invite VS Naipaul to write a few articles.

Harry, London, UK

So what's new ? Religion as the biggest fraud ever, used to opress, murder, maim and enslave,,, 2000 years and counting... When will we learn ?

J-L Guiot, Longfield, England

Face the truth.
We live in a mysogynist world.
Look at the justification here for this horrific treatment of women.
Posters are actually defending it.

ruth doyle, los gatos, , USA, California

I'm just curious how people fail to read history. Since when has Islam been expanded by missionaries and not the sword?

so if the Islamic states aren't really practicing Islam, why don't the vast amount of Muslims defend their doctrine and stand up to these countries?

I'm just curious about that. I know that when people pervert my faith, my church will stand up for what we believe, excommunicate people and so on.

Whenever Islam is talked about, Israel is always dragged into it, one way or another.

Speaking of Israeli's... I need to call my wife ;^)

Joe, San Diego, CA

John from Bejing,
While you are at it also:
(1) Leave the countries that you have invaded and settled in (like Australia, US, Canada ..)
(2) Return the wealth you have plundered from those countries and the countries that you had colonised in the past.
(3) Pay reparation to Africa for slavery and apartheid.
(4) By all means withdraw your troops - after initial chaos - those countries can only be better off.
(5) Do cease trading with those countries - we'll see who buys your subsidised chemical ridden food then.
And, by all means, do not trade with these nations. There will be problems initially - but then they will learn to be self sufficient. Many people will die of deseases meantime - but they are dying now anyway - by your bombs and guns and sale of tobacco.

Kris, Sydney, Australia

I am a christian, white woman living in Dubai. I love the fact that there are women only queues, women only spas and shops and that women are given deferential preference in any public area. I can take a taxi, wait for an elevator and queue in the bank or post office and will always be given priority to men, is this not just an extension of the ever so english "gentleman-ly" behaviour of opening doors and pulling out chairs for ladies? Perhaps, just perhaps it is not always about putting people down... I know there are places within the muslim world where people, women and girls particularily, are treated in a very different way to that which "westeners" would expect or are used to. I do not condone this but please dont make the assumption that every muslim country would treat you this way, some positively go out of their way to make a woman's life easier!

Alice, Dubai, UAE

It seems rather bloodless to respond to the utter loss of freedom her purdah entailed with a mere "not my cup of chai."

Perhaps this is just the effect of a career in academia, where any expression of strong feeling, unless it's directed at George Bush or Western Culture in general, is seen as lacking in objectivity.

Ms. Chesler's story demonstrates why the Muslim societies in the Middle East and South Asia are seen in the West as backward and
stagnant.

AST, Orangeville,, Utah

I wish more wome, and men were brave enough to speak out against the inhuman cult called Islam, it's horrific treatment toward women and children, not to mention the rest of the civilized world.

I'm old enough to remember seeing "colored only" and "whites only" signs over drinking fountains in the U.S. South in the 1950's. In Saudia Arabia there are seperate doors for women at the Safeway stores today!

Islam is self imploding because their 'elders' see the world getting technologically smaller each day and their young turning from hard line Islam, and they fear if they don't take over the world today, they will loose all tomorrow. They don't realize, they've lost it already and simply don't know how, or refuse, to read the writing on the wall of time.

Mike Z, California, USA

The author's story is quite biased. Individual treatment should never be linked to religion or culture of a nation. I advise the author to do more research and study about Islam prior to writing such stories.

A.S , Shenyang, China

s ahmadi
Your point is irrelevant to finding a solution. In fact your terse reply contributes significantly to the misunderstanding of your religion. Your compulsion to take a defensive position bent with a negative attack on the individual is just a scornful. Is it a case of scorn for scorn, an eye for an eye ? Constructive dialogue around the issue which separates the individual from the issue is what is required, and possibly intended by this piece. As a so called "enlightened" westerner you words could be interpreted by me as implying you would really like to "cut off her hands" for writing what she has written. Now there i go - some scorn from me. Where does that get us? Where are Moslem intellectuals on this issue? I hear scorn and hate from Moslem apologists. Your religion is close to a third of the world's population. That means you have a third of the greatest thinkers on the planet. Where is the intellectual dialogue???

dominic, Brisbane,

I am a muslim. But I think some ideas of her is true, but not at all. What she shows up such issues like disregard of women rights is true. But accusation fully on Islam religion is incorrect. There is a mix of indigenous culture like that in Afganistan and the rules of Islam that brings the bad results. I should say that many non-arab people doesn't know the full meaning of Koran, because they don't read it fully. But there are many interpretations with terrible translations. Also illiteracy and poverty in this regions are the source of anger and terrorism. Because the rulers in these countries don't want to see people literate.

uran, bishkek, kyrgyzstan

I agree with s ahmadi.
Since we in the West are responsible for all the evils in the Middle East, we should, over a ten year period,
1. cease trading with those countries that blame us for their ills
2. repatriate all citizens of those countries
3. stop giving aid to those countries
4. withdraw all troops from those countries
5. end diplomatic relations with those countries.
After a decade, we will have lower pollution levels and be producing most of our own energy. Our economies will continue to advance. We will continue to make incredible scientific breakthroughs. The economies of those countries that despise us will be wrecks.
Then we will see who is TRULY responsible for the situation!

John, Beijing,

s ahmadi says, "After two decades of war, do you really expect liberalism or progress to occur over night."

Issue one: you are using Afghanistan as the example here. Has Saudi Arabia or Pakistan endured 2 decades of war?

Issue two: Japan and Germany are 2 examples of countries that endured nearly complete destruction of their countries because of war and yet they aren't culturally backward wife beaters because of it.

When will people like s ahmadi grow up and take ownership of their problems? I fear they never will.

tony, Saint Louis, USA

Beware sheeple!

d, sf, ca

The title needs changing to, "How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of the Afghan man".
I do not think you should demonise Islam because you had a bad experience with a looney.
True, Afghanistan (used to) and some other so-called Muslim states treat women and foreigners like garbage but that is in their own "bastardised" ideology of Islam.

Might get shot if I give it, Birmingham, West Mids

I find it hopeful and extremely refreshing to finally see a Western intellectual whose head is not filled with confused, naive, foolish nonsense. Ms. Chesler must be acknowledged and supported as a clear headed person with the courage to state truths which are currently very unpopular in Western intellectual circles (despite the obviousness and simpleness of these truths).
It is not necessary to encourage average Western citizens to rise up against Islamic nations. If the average person is simply truthfully informed of what is going on in the world, they will make up their own minds based on fairness and common sense.
I am greatly concerned that dishonest political indoctrination has been enthusiastically adopted by the news media in the U.S., Canada, Europe, and particularly the middle eastern nations. Amongst a list of other negative things, this has ensured that another generation of Arabs has been poisoned against Israel, which will ensure another 30 years of pointless war and poverty.

Joe, Santa Barbara, CA

Miss Chesler, you are an incredible woman. I am glad and extremely encouraged by your bravery. I wonder how Rosie O'Donell would fare against you in a TV head-to-head interview/debate?

Enrique, Blue Springs, MO

I found this article to be very brave, and very honest. After reading it, I truly agree that the US needs to be supportive of the members of this group. Westerners can only wear "blinders" for so long. It's imperative that we work with these individuals---for their growth, as well as for our own growth as a nation. I would be interested in learning more about this group.

Dixie, Brighton, CO

This article should help warn western women to look into the culture of their future spouse. The ridiculous comparisons between Islam and Christianity in the comments so far can be summed up in the printing of the Mohammed Illustrations. Christians forgive those negative portrayals of Chirst, Muslims burn, destroy, kill and threaten. I am sorry for those who don't like those facts.

You may take your visits into history, but todays' examples make the issues clear!

Africanus, ,

Omraw Kahn, Muslim, mmmm what a surprise........
You're the one who needs an education. Phyllis is right on the money. Glad she got away from the Tyranny of Islam. Wake up America...........and Europe.

craig, Campbell, USA CA

Liberals always throw around the word racist so they do not have to argue the facts. The fact is that most Islamic countries are backward and treat women as second-class citizens. What would the reaction of liberals be if a Christian dominated country treated women as poorly as most Islamic countries? They would condemn that country and blame Christianity for the subjugation of women.

Fred, Kansas City, USA

I hold no brief for inhabitants of dirt-poor pre-feudal honor/shame societies, or god-botherers of any stripe, but this story says a lot more about the writer than it does about either Afghan or so-called "Islamic" culture. Anyone who didn't just fall out of a tree would surely have tried to find out something about their future in-laws before relocating to the far side of the world to live with them. Or at least leaf through a few back numbers of National Geographic.

Clearly it takes a very special class of person to become Professor of Psychology and Women's Studies at an elite American college. Prof. Chesler's own life story must provide a rich vein of case-study material. I wonder if her job description extends to counselling her students on difficult to revoke lifestyle choices?

Sheeeesh. What could she possibly have been thinking?

Plucky Underdog, Houston, US

The author's story is tragic. Like the treatment of Blacks, Indians, Jews, and other people at the hands of our enlightened Christians. So you relay your experience...what then...what are you doing to offer any solutions. How about the wonderful Christian concept of Gas Chambers?...or Inquisition? That will solve the "Muslim question". Afghanistan wasn't the bastion of Western Liberalism before the Soviet-Western game of the 80's, but she showed signs. After two decades of war, do you really expect liberalism or progress to occur over night.
Sept 11 caused an extremists reaction here in the US. 3000+ people died, but my dear professor imagine if another country plays politics with your country and uses your country as a political game. We are not talking 3000 lives affected but millions...I wonder how progressive America would be if that occurred. Spare me your personal scorn, and your sophomoric generalizations. We need solutions not hate mongering.

s ahmadi, Decatur, GA

Ms. Chesler has my admiration for speaking out about the barbarism of the Islam extremists. I realize that there are many good and kind Muslims. They will have to stand with the Christians, Jews and others eventually to stamp out the Islamic extremists who would like nothing better than to destroy the West, Israel and any one who does not march to their orders.

Those who think the West or the U.S. is the cause of the barbaric behavior of the Islamic terrorists is simply showing their ignorance of history. They need to do some research. And while they are at it - look at most of the conflicts around the world. Most of them include Muslim extremists trying to wipe out those who do not believe as they do.

G.B. Hayes, Modesto, California

"Enlightened rationalism" and "theocratic fundamentalism" are both shabby imposters and not in any way definitive parameters of any choices we are being called upon to make in the matters Phyllis Chesler addresses. She has obviously been deeply affected by her experience in Afghanistan and I don't either doubt what she says or challenge the particular verity of most of the conclusions she has drawn. While having managed to escape one intellectual and emotional cul-de-sac, however, she appears to have succeeded at falling into another. Her courage in speaking up on these matters, though, is to be roundly applauded.

Ice Ko, Steveston, BC Canada

Ms. Chesler is to be commended for her honesty and courage. Unlike the many apologists for "the religion of peace" she actually has experienced life under the boot of islam.

Anne Martin, Martins Point, Nova Scotia, Canada

The writer has had a very unfortunate experience; she was naive, and it has made her bitter.

But no-one denies that there are problems for women in Muslim countries, as there are all over the world. This hardly justifies "standing up to this....militarily"; and how plausible is the threat that the West will be "overrun by the sharia"? She seems to share the same fantasies as al-Qaida.

Attacking Muslim countries does not help Muslim women. Ask women in Iran if they want the Americans to "liberate" them. As for Israel, I have never heard anyone say that the social problems of Muslims are the fault of Israel; Israel has enough to answer for in Palestine without blaming it for the lot of Afghan women!

jim holloway, manchester, uk

I will only ask one question of all the Muslims living in the West who are critical of Ms. Chesler's article. Why are you all creeping into the West , if Islamic countries so wonderful. Over 90% of all asylum seekers are Muslims. None of you could handle the truth, whenever anyone exposes all the horrible things about Islam and its practices, you cry Islamaphobia. Get real.

Faqi, London, UK

It is good to read this first-hand credible witness statement about things which are well documented elsewhere.
'Islam' means submission.

As to who is to submit, and to what one submits to?
I saw a film on SBS-TV recently called 'Osama'. It was the story of a young girl in Afganistan living with mother & grandmother, & suddenly no male relatives. She had to go to work as a boy, for them to survive. But she was swept up from 'her' employment and sent to a madras. She was too fragile to blend with the boys undetected. What happened to her was so chilling, so cruel, it was satanic = Al'lilah.

Women, be very grateful that our civilization blossomed on Judeo- Christian principles. The Bible tells a man to love his wife, the Qaran tells a man to dominate his wives. Each culture develops according to their guiding principles

Dane, Brisbane, Australia

You are woman. You are life. You are strong. You are a true Shero. You are being prayed for.

Carol, Greenwood, SC

My mom came from India, so she had first hand experience with Muslims. Her opinion, which I agree with, having Muslim friends - the average Muslim on the street is like the average person anywhere. Not particularly evil or good, and generally wanting the best for his family. Many Muslims, just like Christians, Jews, etc., are very honest, kind people.

The problem with Islam is not the average person, but the leadership - the imams, etc., who emphasize the violent and separatist portions of the Koran. It is because of this leadership that radical Islam is a threat to the free world, and in fighting this we actually fight for the rights of many Muslims who also desire freedom and peace.

BTW, because of this, I try to treat individual Muslims the same way I treat any individual - while I disagree with radical Islam, I try to give individuals the benefit of the doubt unless they give me a reason not to.

Shefali, Dallas, Texas

I am shocked at the replies published here. Their ignorance and clear lack of intellect is apparent, and it suprises me greatly that The Times has deemed them worthy of webspace. Shahid in Dublin needs to re-read the article and stop ranting his standard dogmababble. Clearly he is not open to the views of others. Alfonso is simply rude and antagonistic and makes no reply to the subject matter. Sam from Manchester should also re-read the article to understand that Muslims are not being vicitimsed here, rather that a cultural clash brought about by globalisation is now upon us and we must recognise and deal with it. Sam, you are not seriously expecting us to make a comparison between the equality in this country and in Afghanistan are you? Oh dear. This article does not seek to persecute Islam in its innocuous form, but rather its particularly disasterous legacy that now threatens our civilisation. if you do not understand this, you should not be seeking to comment. Diagnosis: re-read, learn and grasp.

Richard Sarsfield, London, England

Doesn't the Koran say that female testimony is only worth half a man's testimony? Is that just a "social" or "cultural" thing then?

Stop apologising for & excusing this shameful inequity! And don't say being paid less on average is the same as being locked in a house for ever or not being allowed to be educated or work at all! Really sloppy thinking Sam!

Roo, London,

I think that years to come this will be the biggest shame on Islam,
the fact that Muslims readly take part in denoucing Bush, Blair and attack the west for a war on Islam without denouncing the epidemic of Muslim-on-Muslim violence. In Iraq they Blame the Coilition. But it is the character of the west that is even willing to punish soldiers on the front for crimes or for mis treating prisoners. In the west people take responsibility. In Iraq the people that kill students are people queuing in the market how will punish these people!

Everton, Harrow, England

How ridiculous to say: get off the Islamophobia bandwagon, when here we have a first hand, personal testimony of living within that faith.

Intellectual arguments are all well and fine but when they fail to respect or even acknowledge human experience they are simply indulgent forays in to abstract academic ponderings.

If you want academic and intellectual arguments then clearly Islam is not for you as one of its commands is not to criticise it. How can you possibly have an intellectual analysis of a philosophy when you are not even allowed to debate it in a balanced manner?

You may then retort that, that is an unfair criticism of the faith and a misrepresentation of the Koran. Perhaps so but this approach is the one taken by the majority of muslims and so also the one I adopt and thus thoroughly fair. You to your belief, me to my own.

Nathan Dale, Cambridge, UK

Why bring Israel into it? No one accuses Israel of practising sexual apartheid - just have a look at Tel Aviv beach...

Tom, Dubai,

It seems that, on the whole, the Americans get it- Islam is incompatible with democracy and western freedom. While the Europeans seem content to be sedated by multiculturalism and political correctness that is killing them.

Given Europe's demographic projections, I hope that the Europeans wake up to the fact that if Muslim immigration continues as it is, and keep refraining from having children- Eurabia WILL be the end result. And the US left as the only crumbling remnant of the only civilization to give humanity democracy and liberty.

Matt, Bakersfield, CA

I am a muslim woman and I do not go out with male escorts because it is not truly Islam. The one thing that the world at large has failed to realise that the founding countries of islam are not really the ones that practice Islam as it should be. Most of these countries have infested true islamic rules with their cultural views and thus claim that it is the "teaching".

Women are given as much freedom as men are, the wife of the Prophet (peace upon him) was a wealthy working business woman, there is nothing in the history of their marriage/relationship that indicates that she was treated as you were.

When people want to air their views, it is best advised not to point fingers in a totally wrong direction. It is utterly disgusting and disappointing that as learned as you are, you have failed to see that these people are acting on their personal/cultural/ancestral rules and thus the title of this article is article is an embarrassment to Islam and is not right.

Semirah, London,

Hey Ayse,
"kill the unbeliever wherever you find them........"
Now where did I read that, was it the Bible or was it the Koran?
If you dont know, perhaps Asim could enlighten us.

david, london, England

I have travelled wideley in the Middle East over the last 30 years and institutionalised mysogyny is not soleley the provenance of Afghanistan. It is alive and well in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and a few other places. The only countries where I felt there was any real opportunity for women to succeed were Jordan and Oman; although I recognise that there are many prominent women in Eygptian acedemic circles. But in that respect Islam is no different from some branches of Christianity where women are seen as nothing more than workhands and breeding machines. Womens rights should be defended everywhere; without them none of us would be here.

Bob, Sidney, Canada

bilal from london,

i just read from a translation of the koran... 4:34... it pretty much looks like it tells believers that women are not equal to men and that if your wife gives you trouble its ok to beat her as a last resort. i'm not sure, but i think this would make islam itsself responsible just as the author says. no offense meant.

rasheed, Austin, TX

It seems as though you approached your marriage with someone from a completely foreign culture with your eyes tightly shut, Ms. Chesler.

Did you ever think to ask any questions about his background or meet his friends or visit his native country at all before you took the plunge and got married?

It seems you approached this marriage with more passivity than someone researching an online date.

Parson Jim, San Diego , USA/California

How can someone judge Islam on the practise of a few unrepresentative Muslims???
I would like to kindly remind Ms Chesler that while Europe was deep into its Dark Ages, the Islamic civilisation was at a golden age for science, art and philosophy. And the Renaissance in Europe started because of contacts with the Islamic civilisation.
So it is a very poor and weak argument to use Afghanistan to make general statements about Islam.
I would also like to put to Ms Chesler that the majority of people who convert to Islam in the UK and the world are women (There are three English women who have converted in my town alone). If Islam is such an oppressive religion to women, how come more women are becoming Muslim?
Islam was the first religion which gave women rights to marry who they wish, divorce, vote, have a political and social role. No Muslim country today represents the true Islam.
I am deeply disappointed to find such poor journalism and lack of objectivity on the Times' Web site.

Ahmad, Tunbridge Wells, UK

Since the position, freedom and inheritance rights of women declined after the introduction of Islam in so many places it is hard to find any evidence that it was all those different indigenous cultures at fault for this or that it was purely coincidental.

As to the argument that “after the revelations in the holy Quran, 90% of authenticated hadiths are attributed to one of the Prophet's wife.” Since her major importance is through what she heard or could describe about the habits of a man she was given to as a child bride this actually a good example of the declining position of women under Islam. Prior to founding the religion Mohammed had had one wife who was an independent career woman whilst after he had several wives and concubines including children, captured slaves…

Joy, London,

Many people living in the West cannot understand the behavior of Muslims in the Middle East. Realize that for hundreds of years they have been cut off from open/free news. Even Turkey and Egypt have limited media. Government controlled media present the religously tainted interpretations of world news. Governments pander to religous leaders to remain in power. Notice the differences between the Muslims in the Far East compared to the Middle East. There are many.

M. Cutler, Northridge, CA/USA

How boring, what a surprise, Phyllis attacks Islam again. Even the Times has now succumbed to the tabloid card. You married someone who wasn't all he said he was, well yippididee, welcome to the real world love, oh and of course this is all because he was a Muslim, mmmm. My dear, if you study history with an open mind, you will realise the crimes of the west still - and always will - remain unreachable for those committing crimes in the name of Islam or any other religions. The country you work in, look what it did to it's natives. The first concentration camps were started by the English (far East), who dropped the bomb? Whose raping the Middle East? Is this your enlightenment? No religion is above criticism and ALL religions have issue that require addressing, but as usual, most of your comments are wonderfully unhampered by knowledge. You talk about human rights. The first charter to protect womens rights was done under Islam etc etc. Change the record love.

Omraw Khan, Bradford, England

I am a westener liberal. Yet, as I force myself not to judge Islam a barbaric, retrograde, cruel religion and try instead to believe those who affirm that it is instead a religion of peace, I can not help to consider that -to my knowledge- there has never been an Islamic profet of non-violence. Mahatma Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, many others: is there a muslim among the men and women of peace? Please prove me wrong.

Max, Detroit, MI, USA

The key for reading religious texts is political, hence what a religion "is" , is what those who have the power and authority to read those texts decide it has to be. The predicament of the islamic world comes from the "islamic" itself, as religion shapes the structures of power in the society. When islam will shift more towards the private sphere then then the much-desired reform would have a chance. Otherwise, the rulers of the islamic world would never initiate this reform, which would only deprive them of the means for obtaining and clinging to power. Thereof the only hope lays in the outsiders, the liberal muslims mentioned in the article. Though without help from the western elite I think this movement will never gain enough momentum.

Rick Trope, Hannover, Germany

No, Corriveau.That is not the purpose of a woman, to be "the driving force behind her man." This woman was not "abit frustated" because she could not act within the role of a traditional "matriarch." What does that mean anyway? The driving force of a woman is herself. It means being able to make choices and have equal opportunities to pursue education, career etc - choices which are independent of whether she 'has a man' or not. These choices are severely restricted by the cultural attitudes displayed in the most part of the world. Even Quebec.

AK, London,

1. The Crusades were a response to the Islamic attacks on the Byzantine Empire - Christians - by the Seljuk Turks. Get it right, already. If you want to play "who's the most barbaric," why not look into the Muslim incursions in the Balkans, where a thousand years of oppression led to the Serbocroatian War just a few years ago? And Israel breaks agreements that have already been shattered by others. If you punch me, I'll kick your butt. That's what it comes down to.

2. I don't really care whether the oppression of women and destruction of society in the Middle East is due to religion, culture, or the government; I just want to quit hearing about women being stoned to death because they were raped by some guy. And about women in Scandinavia being gang-raped by Muslims. And about how Islamists think America would be better off with sharia. Leave us alone, and we'll leave you alone. That's really what it comes down to.

3. Britain rocks, for the most part. Pray it continues to do so.

kywrite, honolulu, hawaii

I am amazed that a professor of psychology could be capable of writing such a poor piece of work. How can Islam be condemned on the basis of the treament that she received at the hands of a poor , illiterate and ignorant people. The logic of this as as absurd as condemning catholism because eastern European girls are falsely brought to the UK and imprisoned to work as prositiutes. It is as absurd as blaming Christianity for the atrocities committed by the US in Iraq, or for the fact that Hitler (a Christian) ordered the extermination of Jews . Shall we blame Christianity for the slave trade ? Ms Chester go read the Holy Quran and find out about the life of the Holy Prophet Muhammad whose actions and teachings were as far away from what you experienced in Afghanistan as you are currently are from being able to distinguish truth from falsehood.

Sarah Waseem, London, UK

Western countries are so full of human crap (drugs, plenty of divorces, hypocracy, corruption, a broken since mainly neglected young generation) that Western individuals are not legitimated to lecture others on religious issues. Those doing that nevertheless are sitting in a glass house.

Rolf Joachim Siegen, Kiev, Ukraine,

This version of islam is not unique to Afghanistan alone.

In parts of Africa and the Middle East the same abhorrent treatment of women and children is not only tolerated it is practically the norm.

It's not islamophobia, merely reporting facts.

David, London,

if religiouns are judged by the behaniour of its adherents then any atheist would say tat christianity is the religioun that permits its adherents to assault and call God to account which is not the truth.
there is a popular islamic institution called Al Azhar which follows a moderate trend in thinking,for those who are interested in the topic.

heba, alexandria, egypt

I don't know why these writers don't recount the vast majority of Muslim women in various nation states who are educated, feminist and also assertive in their lives. If these western commentators are so worrying about Muslim women's rights, one wonders why the west invaded Iraq where a secular regime was treating women on par with men with all access to basic rights! One should not forget that Islam religiously mandates equal property rights for women, right to refuse a marriage and equal right to divorce, and puts a higher burden of material responsibility on the husband towards the wife, irrespective of people culturally and socio-econimically interpret Islam in a subjective manner.

iniyan , Liverpool, UK

Judith Brown wants to blame 19th century and later Western imperialism for what is and has been wrong with Muslim societies. But there are accounts of oppression & religious persecution in Muslim countries BEFORE 1800. I suggest she read the Franciscan priest, Francesco Suriano on the oppression of Jews in Jerusalem in the late 15th century [in the Mamluk period]. Suriano lived in Jerusalem at that time. He was not sympathetic to Jews, yet he described what he witnessed. The German in Danish service, Carsten Niebuhr, described Egypt [and Yemen too, if I am not mistaken] with the Muslim oppression of Jews and Christians in the late 18th century, decades before Napoleon's invasion. Gedaliah of Siemiatycze, a Polish Jew, lived in Jerusalem in the 1600s. He describes how Jews were oppressed & exploited by collection of the jizya tax [on him, see Encyclopedia Judaica]. Yemen was notorious for persecuting Jews in the Middle Ages when Maimonides wrote, Epistle to Yemen. Wake up Judy

Eliyahu, Jerusalem, Israel

maybe we should separate islam and the so-called islamist. the latter is probably the 'anti-christ' of islam. it is probably more accurate to always draw this distinction rather than imply the two groups are homogenous. failure to do this draws, and probably justifiably, claims of racism from islam.

lou capetown, cape town,

Wow...with comments like most of these, I expect to be living under sharia law within my lifetime. Such people are probably quick to point out so-called human rights abuses perpetuated by Americans but yet are blind to the abuses perpetuated by Muslims on their own people.

I join those Muslims on this board who recommend people read the Quran. They should even go farther and read the hadiths that further explain what Muhammed said. You don't need to listen to anyone's story to know, by reading the Quran and hadiths, that the treatment of women that so many women who have lived in the Middle East have described is exactly what is prescribed in these texts.

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 126: Narrated Imran: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women."

Wake up, people! Such beliefs are coming to a neighborhood near you!

Arwen, Chicago, IL

Yes, Christianity has been a violent religion in the past. The extermination of Arians and other so-called "heretics" in the very early years. Wars between Catholics and Protestants. Torture, burning at the stake of those holding different beliefs. However, Catholics and Protestants eventually saw the wastefulness of their battles, and soon the Western Enlightenment began. Fundamentalist Christian groups may strongly believe I'm headed for hell, but I've never been afraid one of their members would blow me up.

Islam must settle its own religious quarrels and go through its own enlightenment.

Judy Shimkus, St Louis, USA

Amen, Sister, glad you are speaking up. I thank God and Jesus Christ every day that I live in a free, democratic country.

Haven, USA,

I was intrigued by the title of this article; then suitably dismayed to hear the experiences of the writer. And then slightly dumbfounded, as I waited and waited for the title to be justified, and the link between her very negative experience and Islam to be made clear. And it never was.

I felt as if I had just read an article about someone's experiences of life in the UK - dysfunctional family, drug addiction, forced into prostitution etc etc - and found it entitled "The Barbarity of Centre-Right Secular Humanism". I am not myself a Muslim, but my own experience of the Quran and its teachings is far indeed from what Ms. Chesler describes.

There may indeed be such a link, and I am ready to hear the case argued. But to begin the article with such a controversialist title, and then to disdain any more than a passing nod in the direction of Making the Argument, is at best mischievous, and indeed veers uncomfortably towards incitement to religious hatred. And us secular humanist countries don't go a whole hog on that.

GK, Glasgow,

In regards to what I Khan had stated about Christianity and the Crusades. That was centuries ago, get over it. The Christian are not like that, they grew, overcame and built prosperous nations. Stop living in the past. Or if you insist on being critical against everything non-Muslim at least plan it out better. Very transparent.

Javed, New York, USA

Talib from Oxford says: "Such a shame that Phyllis Chesler has taken Afghani culture as representatative of Islam". Perhaps he should be condeming those muslims who mistreat women or those muslims who murder innocents rather then pointing out the flaws of one of their many victims.

The excuse that it's the fault of "those OTHER muslims" is used so frequently that it gets tired.

Peter Grynch, Chicago, IL, USA

Yes, Ms. Chesler shouldn't look at Afghanistan as being representative of Islam as a whole. Neither should she look at Pakistan or Sudan or Somalia or Saudi Arabia or anywhere Sharia law is practiced. Any place where Islam is traditionally home to, well it would be a gross generalization for her to use that as an example of Islamic backwardness. However, Islam in the West, where Sharia is banned, tolerance enforced and women's rights guaranteed, well, that is the true face of Islam.

Wake up Islamo-apologists! Those Muslims who are truly children of the Book should join Ms. Chesler and Muslim women like Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsi Ali in reclaiming the 'religion of peace' from the evil within. Those that stand by and watch the violent Jihadists & Imams murder and maim innocents in Allah's name (pbuh) and do nothing are collaborateurs and shall be judged unworthy at the end of days. You are your brother's keeper and cannot sit on the sidelines. Silence is guilt.

M. Fernandez, San Francisco,

How many legions has the Pope?

None.

Not to many Presbyterians out there allowing their women to be whipped for having been raped; or condoning a retaliation rape.

The way I see it, Islam is going through it's Crusade years, just like CHristianity did; revenge served cold until heated by nuclear fusion.

Jim, NY,

Nothing in the article or the experiences described justify the title. The article should've been entitled: 'How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Afghanistan'

Yet again we seem to be attacking Islam for the background cultures in of many countries that have supposed Muslim populations. If the religion of the Christian population of Nazi Germany cannot be held responsible for the abuses during that era - we cannot hold Islam responsible for misogynists.

Amin, London,

Not involving the culture, what we can say about any religion, is that it it based on belief. Believing is being ignorant. Belief is accepting and praising ignorance.

Trond, Oslo,

We will know that Islam and Muslims are truly tolerant when Christians, Jews, and others are allowed to worship freely in Saudi Arabia and, in particular, in Mecca.

James, Jacksonville, Illinois U. S.

A tale I've heard many times. Only this time the authori is a professor. It's a lot more tragic than you represented, ma'am. Barbarity knows no bounds when it becomes a national/religious institution.

John dunne, Newhall,

"...a conservative club that won't allow women to play snooker there..." --well, that just goes to show the UK is every bit as backward as a country where women can't leave the house. Oh, mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa!

Norman Paterson, St Andrews, Fife

I too married a Muslim man who I met at university and continue to be married to him to this day (12 years next month). I can say that he is quite simply the most loving, courteous, kind and considerate man and much of this is down to the way he was brought up and the values his parents taught him. My experiences were completely different from those of Ms Chesler. I was never asked to convert by his family. Nor was I asked to wear a niqab or veil. I feel comfortable when visiting my husbands family in Islamabad and would quite happily go and live in this thriving, bustling, cosmopolitan city in a country which is experiencing unprecedented social and religous change for the better. Even though my husbands family are practising Muslims they represent to me everything that family life should be like where children, grandparents, cousins, relatives meet regularly for dinner, parties and gatherings. Perhaps Ms Chesler should try and differentiate between peasant Afghan culture and Islam

Elisabeth, Norway/Scotland,

I find the comments on "rampant but hotly denied male “prison”-like homosexuality and pederasty" to be particularly interesting. I suppose that this should not surprise me, however, this is the first time I have heard such a comment mentioned.

I praise Ms. Chesler for the amount of conviction and honesty necessary to write this story. It is time that the word - east and west, Muslim and non-Muslim alike demand that human rights are respected. Evil should not be defended by any religious book.

David, Leipzig, Germany

Blaming the U.S. for the existence of al-Qaida? Please. Tell me why they would bother to attack India, then.

JFP, Ohio, USA

Sam from Manchester: If this country is such a beacon of equality then how come women are still paid less than men for doing the same job?

How is this even slightly relevant to the article? Of course there's sexism in the UK. Does this mean that sexism in every other country in the world should be ignored? The only way to tackle these things is to discuss them, not sit in silence.

I saw nothing in this article to justify some of the defensive and offensive comments from readers. Islam, like all Abrahamic religions, is sexist. That's a statement of fact. And regardless of how often people cry 'we must seperate religion and culture!', are people genuinely arguing that religion has no impact on culture? How deeply ironic, given how frequently we hear from countries like Iran that Western culture is debased and that if we just adopted Sharia law all our problems would be solved!

Isobel, Oxford,

The author details her nightmare experience in a strange and primitive land. A visitor from that land to Britain might recoil at the cannibalistic manner in which our crime-ravaged people live in fear,, and the numberless army of needle-plunging and substance-snorting addicts trawl scavenging the few pounds they can still raise or steal from downtrodden working and pensioned folk, whilst in the background a droning media churns out distracting drivel for morons to digest, Yet this hellish place is our home, the place we know and love. Doubtless the Afghans feel the same sentiment for their own land, we should not be expected to share it.

piggy kruger, bridgwater, UK

Please have some sensitivity to the fact that Islam should
not be subject to blanket criciticsm anymore than Christianity. The appearance of such headlines in The Times gives unnecessary support to those who complain of Islamophobia.

Alan Amos, Gillingham, Kent

Phyllis Chesler is a brave woman. She will argue for women's rights against feminists who have lost their way and now see women's rights only in terms of abortion rights and the rights of sex workers. Real women's rights begins by liberating the women of the Muslim world.

Susan, Raleigh, North Carolina

Islam is as Islam does, I get so very tired of hearing the excuses of those who refuse to see any link between certain barbaric Muslim practices and Islam per se, as though it were some kind've freaky coincidence that such a tiny percentage of predominantly Muslim countries have a good record on women's rights. It's nonsense equivalent to arguing that the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity because they were against the teachings of Christ.

Gareth Herbert, Coventry,

Islam is stuck in the middle ages. Their calendar is 700 years behind the times and so is their thinking. Most of the comments so far show a knee jerk reaction to try and defend what cannot be defended. In islam every thing is forbidden unless permitted by the koran.

ivan swan, sarnia ontario, canada

"Men suck" sums it up, don't you think?

Jane, Chicago, Il, USA

muslims and non muslims should be on their guard to all forms of extremism pratised(so claimed) in the name of any particular (so called!) religion.
We should b not confuse tolerance with fear- the fear of challenging those who striuve to impose particulars views or practice by threat or violence.

mike, london, uk

In response to Alfonso Parelli -

'Go on and name one great female western philosopher' !?!
Judith Butler, Christine de Pizan, Simone de Beauvoir to name but a few. Alfonso, I suggest you seriosuly widen your own horizons before daring to comment on someone else's. Perhaps start with something along the lines of Mary Ellen Waithe's 'History of Women Philosophers' - a book I imagine would have been difficult to write if the author couldn't even name one great female western philosopher.

I think some of these comments have been correct - the problem of misogynists is as much a problem here as it is in Afghanistan.

R. Williams, London,

For the muslims who does abuse their women, they do it out of conviction of their religion and not, as some muslims want us believe, as part of culture. Last month, one person in Pakistan killed a woman minister, and he said he did that according to the religious dictates. We, the non-muslims, cannot decide who is telling the truth. We only see the results, and we are horrified. The proof is in the pudding.

tony, London,

Well they say love is blind - how nice to have a story to confirm the veracity of this saying. Afghani society has been like this for thousands of years - why would things suddenly change for a western lady? More to them point why would someone with so deep an education be surprised?

The Taliban intensifed the disgraceful and primative treatment of women as part of their subjugation of the Afghan people - very succesfully as it happens - and they found many allies amongst conservative males.

Whilst many deny the link between Islam and the slavery of women (as in Afghanistan) it does seem to be the case that almost all societies that systematically treat women as chattle are Muslim societies. The big question therefore should be why? It cannot possibly be coincidence. I am no sociologist but I would suspect that there are tribal roots to this phenominon.

Robert , Manama, Bahrain

" if Westerners do not stand up to this apartheid, morally, economically and militarily, we will not only have the blood of innocents on our hands; we will also be overrun by Sharia in the West. "
This piece of text speak volumes on why you ARE a reactionary!

ZOP, CA, Puerto Rico

How can anyone respond to such tales of uncivilized cruelty by merely querying the distinction between the culture and the religion? Any religion or none presents a stance of the world which would be too complex for a single viewpoint to understand. If a people use a religion to make sense of their lives, models separating their cultural and religious contribution can only be tested on their worldly results.

Surely then, all who wish to correct the opinions of their religion (which they think are largely based on the activities described by Professor Chesler above) would do better to start by acknowledging the cruelty of the situation. If Muslims were more vocal in their opposition to these practices others would not feel the need to do so. Then fewer headlines would contain the words Islam and barbarity in the same sentence, shared values would be acknowledged and mutual respect would grow. Appearing to condone actions by criticizing the author is inappropriate.

David Wilson (PhD), Surrey, England

Firstly as a secular muslim I must say I do not advocate the view of Islam as a barbaric religion. You have the Crusades which were the dark point of christianity however that does not make the religion itself barbaric. There is an undoubted problem with human rights and womens rights issues in the middle east however it must be noted that Iraq had one of the greatest records for equal rights for women in the middleast which is very much overlooked in western media. If we look at the christian representatives George Bush and Tony blair they can be hardly be classed as leading peace keepers. They have both cost much more suffering and death with their ideology over the last 10 years. As for Tiny Israel with its Huge millitary budget and aid it recieves from its western partners it has to be noted that the state routinely breaks human rights along with UN resolutions which shine of double standards when applied to Islamic counntries. Only complete understanding and tolerence will bring about the change and peace so longed for through out the middle east and western world.

I Khan, London, UK

Please do not confuse Islam with its incorrect interpretation - all religions have the potential for fanaticism. It is wrong to broadly paint Islam with barbarity. The heart of Islam lies in a faith in God, and nothing more. As KR points out, faith should be enough! It is only the incorrect interpretations of any religion that could lead to such unfavourable conditions.

David Gwynne, Leicester , England

The idiocy of liberal multiculturalism, justifying female subjugation and abuse as cultural rather than religious simply highlights the point the author was making. How long will liberals continue to ignore the lessons of history? How can a religion that dominates a culture NOT be judged according to that culture's attributes? Of course the religion is the culprit.

Sid, Eustis, Florida

There go the dragons of expectation again! As with Socialism, some are blinded by the expectation rather than the reality. The same way as Socialists always complain that Socialism would have worked under certain or just different conditions under which all Socialist experiements failed, now we have some who think that Islam is benign, it is just the cultures under which it developed are not suitable. Sorry, but no, that does not fly anymore: that which begets evil is evil.

Frederick Davies, Oxford, UK

How does a religion, which states that it must be the basis for not only faith, but business, law, government, and personal choice... co-exist with a liberal democratic society?

The answer... It cannot.

If you adhere to Islam, eventually you are bound to force it up on your government, your neighbors, make it ALL law, or die trying.

Fortunately for the free world, most adherents to Islam simply do not follow it that far.

But what if they did? It would become a global fight to the death between social and religious freedom, and Islam... a fight to the death.

Mark, weston, OR, USA

The view that the West has not influenced Afghanistan because it wasn't colonised it is far too simple; the domination of the Middle East by Western powers during the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries has had a profound effect on the cultures of all ME countries, not only influencing their external relations, but their internal politics and cultural practices too. Having lived in Yemen for a number of years, I saw the system of men and women living separate existence merely a different way of organising life rather than something that is superior or inferior; personally I was very happy to live that way. That is not to defend the recent appalling domination of women in Afghanistan, which is a different issue. I suggest that Phyllis Chesler reads the account of the Arabian princess, Emily Reute, who married a German and moved to the West in the late 19th Century, who demonstrated that Arab/Muslim women at that time enjoyed far more rights than their Western (or Jewish) counterparts.

Judith Brown., Dubai/Somerset UK., UAE/UK

It may be exaggerated to say that what happens or happened in Afghanistan happens all around the muslim world, but hey, there is an issue of intolerance and discrimination in the muslim world. After all, Afghanistan has also the muslim world as a background.

Some of the muslim leaders in the UK make a terrible example of muslim by denying christianity, and pretending to make everyone muslim. If thats the project they have in mind, theyre absolutely wrong.

D, cheshire,

"Islam is the only religion which not only accepts slavery"

The Bible accepts slavery too. Exodus 21:7 and Leviticus 25:44.

It's just that Christians have moved on. Not much (they got stuck in the middle ages :P), but further than Islam.

Starling, Lancaster,

With all due respect, why should we have to live in fear within our own Christian country ? Why should we be funding the building of mosques when communities fund the restoration of churches ? When are the rational Muslims in Britain going to stand up and speak out against the very large minority of extreme racist islamics in the UK ? When will Muslims start respecting the views of the "pigs" of the moderate western world ? It seems to me that all other religions have made some effort to accomodate all other beliefs and cultures, therefore moving into the modern world and yet the Islamic religion is stuck fast in ancient times. My Muslim friends live as hypocrites. They live fake double lives so that they save face to the older generation whom they live in fear of. They don't want to be outcast or shunned. It's shamefull that they'll never be free to make a choice. Turn against Islam then you lose your family. Please tell me that this isn't true in general.

Lee Avery, Thetford, UK

So many of these comments say how it is not Islam that was the problem in Afghanistan, but the regime.
Why is it all the Islamic countries have the issues Ms chessler describes? The regimes, all different, the religion, Islam.
Hmmm...is there something that ties these countries together? Islam, surely not, must be the Israelis.

Sam Deakins, Richmond, KY

Ibn Warraq: "Without critical examination of Islam, it will remain dogmatic fanatical and intolerant and will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality, originality and truth." If one wants to stop and change all that aforementioned, you have to throw the Kouran away. It is an illiterate book which prescribes violence, backwardness and then more violence.

Alex Tailor, Los Angeles, USA, CA

If Islam is not responsible, what is responsible for the dimunition of human rights in almost every muslim country in the world? Why was a gang-raped woman in Saudi Arabia recently sentenced to flogging, for being with out unsupervised with a strange man? Why does the muslim world feel the need to have made the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam (which, notably, dilutes the Universal Declaration of Human Rights)? Why are banned from Saudi Arabia? Of course, the answer from some of your commentators will doubtless be "the West made us do this!" The truth lies elsewhere.

Nick, Seattle, USA

I would prefer a world without religion, but have to say that people do give religion a bad name. I am not limiting this to any faith in particular, but you have to be careful when you equate some people's behaviour with a whole religion.

John-george Nicholson, London,

An article in today's Urdu newspaper Jang illustrates the points raised above; it describes how women are being threatened in the capital, Islamabad, city not to drive, or go to work, or even go alone outside without a male family member as an escort. Where will it stop?

Up until 2005, there were around 2500 children under the age of 10, smuggled from poverty stricken areas of Palistan, to be used in slave-trade as jockeys in camel race throughout the United Arab Emirates - yes, it is a brutal fact. What is heart-rending about the whole issue the blatant silence of the wider Muslim community to even to acknowledge this ghastly practice in the Arab Muslim world.

I think Muslims do need to extricate themselves from a sense of self-inflicted persecution-mania and take a more balanced view of the state they are in.

Michel, London,

Rake.

I wan holiday in Amsterdam in 2006 and was amazed see many Eastern European, Russian and Chinese girls some as young as 13 or 14 being led into filthy brothels by unsavoury Russian and Dutch mafia types. Presumably, these girls were snatched or were purchased as slaves and forced to work as prostitutes by their captors. Point is we are absolutely 100% wrong to believe that the subjugation of women is an Islamic thing and not prevalent in our own "perfect" Western society. Exploitation and violence towards women happens all over the world from Christian Brazil to Hindu India to Buddhist China. Example; women in rural India who have lost their husband still throw themselves onto the funeral pyre. Before, Indians come on and accuse me of Hinduphobia - I realise that this is practiced by a tiny minority and Indians are trying to discourage this practice by passing laws against this.

Samuel, Glasgow, UK

Interesting article, The writer has my sympathy but the lady seems to be one of the many women we hear about who go off the husband's home country possibly with preconceived ideas and find they dont particularly like it... I understand that the husband in this particularly case wasnt particularly nice and her life wasnt fun but if she changed her stance or was a little open to change she may have had a better experience. Afghan women, or rather a lot of women from that area DO have the ability to have some say about the lives. The difference is that they are subtly trained from when they are young to "manipulate" their man...
It used to happen here until women lost the art.
Also, from what Ive read I reckon the lady should have spent more time learning about Islam as there is clearly a discrepancy in her understanding...

Tahira, sussex, uk

I agree totally on the need to end reactionary Islam. But "tiny Israel" is indeed denying the property rights and human rights of Palestinians. Partly because ideological Islam has weakened the Arab world to the point when tiny Israel is much more powerful.

Tarik Hussein, Copenhagen, Denmark

to the philistine who said camus and dovstoyevski aren't philosphers - what else are writers, especially these two.

camus wrote two philoshphical books - the myth of sisyphus and teh rebel - go buy the books and learn to read

also - obviously the west and christiniannity is better than islam. i thought that was a glaring fact. what's better,'turn teh other cheek' or 'chop off the head of those attack you'

the choice is obvious to me, one is response is divine, the other is all too human

david, london,

It's interesting to see the common threads of denial and deflection by the Barbarian apologists who've commented on this enlightening article. While it is a bit of a stretch to believe that someone could've been so blind to the true nature of her spouse, the fact is that Islam is used in every country and culture to suppress the rights of women, children, and non adherents. The Afghan, the Arab, the African, and the Malaysian muslim do not share a cultural heritage, they share a religious tenet which is as the author points so clearly, is stuck in the dark ages. The sooner we in the west accept this reality and stand up to it, the sooner the reformation of Islam, and return to its true beginnings, will occur.

Tim, New York, USA

Bharat, Iraq did not have Islam as its state religion. It might do now, but Saddam himself wasn't even a practicing Muslim (which is why Iran laughed at him when he suggested a joint jihad). There were (not are) Christian communities, women were not forced to wear Islam dress (they are now), and several ministers were Christian too.

Starling, Lancaster,

'The Thirld World Sucks' is an anxiom not to be limited only to Muslim countries. Some of them are even in the Fifth World and falling.

Eugene, Heidelberg, germany

The basic problem is with religion in general and the overtly religious in particular. 'Religious' countries have always gone down the sewer. Somebody should do an analysis of economic growth in secular countries vis-a-vis countries under religious dispensation ( factoring out oil).

Afghan women probably enjoyed their best eriod while under communist rule. Whatever be the other misgivings, women of the former Soviet Republics, the various 'stans' ,enjoyed hundred percent literacy and maximum freedom under socialist rule.

Kara Swart, London, UK

Please do not judge a 1500 year old religion by what u call an illetrate country, illetracy doesnot = Islam in any form or way. Islam is different, but that does not make it wrong.

M, calgary, canada

The article makes some very sound points. Islamic dissidents deserve every support where they try to counter a culture of persecution of women and religious minorities, of gays and intellectuals. There has been, and continues to be, a refusal on the part of many western liberals to take sides between civilisation and barbarism, between rationalism and superstitious fundamentalism. Many who see themselves as liberal are so politically confused that they're failing to oppose fundamental attacks on free speech or oppose the apartheid of women, forced marriages, even female genital mutilation and the murder of women for 'adultery' or of men and women for leaving a religion - simply because these oppressive acts are practised by men (mostly) of a different ethnicity. Failure to stick up for political, religious and sexual freedoms is very dangerous no matter who's attacking them. They're hardwon rights that absolutely have to be defended if civilisation, education, knowledge and freedoms are going to survive and advance.

cath, guildford, surrey

Part of the issue lies of course with Islam itself, its beliefs and practices. Though it has to be said that other Asian countries ie Buddhist and Hindu are also often guilty of terrible (though perhaps not quite as bad) sexism, ignorance, prejudice etc. So infact this is really is as much a wider cultural issue rather than simply a religious one. These things invariably shift once economic conditions change for the better.

As for the Israel v. Palestinians etc this is a seperate issue entirely - the fact that Afghanistan is still in the 11th Century with womens rights does not make the plight of the Palestinians acceptable.

Will, Barcelona, Spain

Most religions in the world today thrive on violence and intolerance. Ban them all.

swine, earth,

If that really occurs and we are all pretty sure that it does then it is no better the racist policies of the deep south of the United States and also no different to Apartheid South Africa . they werent tolerated so why should this type of behaviour be ? . At the end of the day it doesnt matter if you are Christian or Muslim , if you truly believe that , that is how you shoudl treat another human being (beings) then you are a monster

Tom Hammond, Bournemouth , u

Reading Ms Chesler's account was disturbing indeed. However as a muslim woman I feel it is my duty to point out that what Ms Chesler experienced was not "Islamic" culture but Afghan culture.

Her experiences are hers and hers alone. I have a great deal of muslims friends, as well as female family members, who live all over the Muslim world. None of them have ever experienced anything like what the article describes.

There have been some muslim woman who have been badly treated, there is no doubt of that. However, Ms Chesler is merely copying Ayaan Hirsi Ali and blaming Islam for what is a cultural problem.

When will The Times and other papers start posting articles from muslim woman who are happy, healthy and inspired by their faith? There are millions of them out there you know!

Natasha, Manchester, UK

Chesler is, as always, right on point. But I will suggest one other element necessary to a change in current circumstances. Academics and others often argue that the Islamic world needs to undergo a "Reformation" and an "Enlightenment" similar to the occasions in the West. What they neglect to mention is the event that succeeded the Reformation (and Counter-Reformation) and was the necessary precursor to any Englightenment: The Thirty Years War. Efforts at Reformation have been under way for some time. Until Islam feels itself defeated, or ravaged, as was Europe during the Thirty Years War, no Enlightenment will follow.

jb, Haymarket, VA

Prof. Chesler, you associate Islam with 'barbarity'? What would you corelate with cristianity?

Rolf Joachim Siegen, Kiev, Ukraine,

It may be true that there is a tendency at the moment to blame Muslims and Islam for many problems, locally and internationally. This is probably because people throughout he world have very mixed emotions about Islam in the current circumstances; whilst many in the West believe the invasion of Iraq to have been unjstified and feel guilt in this regard, at the same time those same people may fear extremists who are associated with Islam and worry about human rights abuses. This is entirely natural. However, what it emphasises is that our decisions must not be based on emotion and isolated events but must be based on a fundamental idea of what is right and what is wrong. This is what we learnt from the second world war and not (as Sam states) that it is wrong to criticise religions or regimes. It would be wrong to condemn Islam on the basis of the author's experiences. However, we must question whether her experiences are symptomatic of a system that encourages true discrimination.

andrew, London,

Read the message from "Shahid" from Dublin. He manages to somehow blame al-Quida and the rest of the Muslim world's tragedies on Israel. I think this is exactly what Ms. Chesler is talkign about: Islam is never at fault, someone else is....

John, London, UK

Such a shame that Phyllis Chesler has taken Afghani culture as representatative of Islam. I could understand the confusion coming from somebody not so educated (I suspect she deliberately intends to misrepresent Islam), but very little of what happens is Afghanistan, especially with respect to the treatment of women, has anything to do with Islam. I would suggest she contact Yvonne Ridley, who was held captive by the Taleban, for another perspective. She subsequently (of her own choosing) became a Muslim, as have many other western women. They judge Islam according to its actual teachings as laid down in the Quran and the practice of the Prophet, not according to the cultural misogyny prevalent not just in Afghanistan but in many countries including the UK and USA.

Talib, Oxford, UK

Ms Chesler is a victim of a bad marraige and is clearly resentful of her experience of being treated as a typical Aghan woman. But to say that Islam endorses the mistreatment of women and other practices mentioned in this article would be similar to saying that Christian or Western liberal values also endorses the trade and trafficking of women as sex slaves across the European continent which is fast becoming a growing phenomenon.

Unfortunately this discourse on Islam has not progressed far beyond the age-old monolithic view of a religion that can be described and condemned at a single stroke whatever the subject matter at hand. This approach does not contend with the heterogenous character of the faith which spans 14 centuries and encompasses a world rich with a multitude of cultures, languages, geographies and histories.

As a practicing Muslim man I would not dream of treating my wife in the way that Ms Chesler was treated. It would go against the teachings of my faith.

Hesham, London, UK

thanks for having the courage to write this. There may ne millions of peaceful Muslims but Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a disgrace to hear politicians spouting that mantra who have never read he Koran.

There are milions of people who would consider themselves christians because they were born in a "christian country' occasionally go to church and follow vaugley what they pecieve to be christians morals. There are others who actually read the bible and take it seriously. When some radicaly believe the bible it produces a mother Theresa.
The same is true of muslims. Most have not chosesn to be Muslims or thought through its teaching but when people take it seriously it produces what the writer describes in Afganistan and turns out Bin Ladens.

Graham Jones, Saint-Etienne, France

The central theme of the article is that Islam itself is barbaric and therefore needs reform with the help of the "Enlightened" West. Yet, the person to whom the writer was married was himself a product of the "Enlightening" process (he "discussed Camus, Dostoevsky, Tennessee Williams and the Italian cinema.") Since the result of this Westernization was a bit disappointing to the author, how does she propose to carry out her noble mission? Which books and authors should these Muslims read to become "Enlightened?" I suppose Dostoevsky, Tennessee Williams, and Italian Cinema won't do it! What would prevent the "englightened" muslims from reverting back to their "barbaric" selves? I guess the only way is to "Take up the White Man’s burden" Oops, I just reverted to my barbaric self. I meant "White Man or Woman's burden." I'll go read some Tolstoy.

AB, New York, USA

phyllis Chesler says she has never been invited or not invited to come and give her views. i as a muslim woman recognise the barbarity she speaks of which continues to this day under the darling of the western leaders hamid karzai, Musharraf of Pakistan, all staunch western allies. i invite her to come and discuss with a panel of all manner of muslim and non muslim speakers on such issues. i would be very interested, as would other muslim women to hear what she has to say. i can organise such a gathering if my details are forwarded to her. thank you.

umm janan, London, UK

Excellent article, Ms. Chesler, you have made a very imporrtant statement.

I am gay and intend to circulate it among my gay friends who constantly denounce Israel, where woman and gays are free, to these Islamic countires where they are not.

Paul, Minneapolis, MN, USA

Maybe as an American woman she was a bit frustrated not being able to act as a «matriarch», to be the driving force behind her man. Frustrated for not being able to be an «American woman».

Corriveau, quebec, Canada

proposterous comments, all those that are criticising islam all because the worst examples of muslims are doing WRONG i repeat WRONG which is condemned by islam itself . you cannot say you are educated and make a comment without having read the quran yourself. i tell you, go read the quran, find your answers and then criticise (if there is anything left to criticise...) dont call it barbarity of islam, call it misled muslims...anyway i can go on forever...leave you to it...

bilal, london,

Why are some of these posters acting so surprised? As usual, everything is the fault of Zionists and the USA, Western Society is decadent, etc., etc. I have worked extensively in the Middle East, and the facts are plain - Islam itself has held back the women of these countries. Not the USA, not Israel, not Tony Blair, but the religion itself.

By the way, it's not only women - being Gay is still a capital offence in mnay Muslim Countries (including 'liberated' Iraq) yet you would be hard-pressed to find anywhere with a more gay se going on!

Alan Lawson, London, UK

The author seems to be a typically zealous convert, once romatically involved with a Muslim, now despising all things about him and his culture as she now comments from a staunchly western feminist veiwpoint. Maybe a more measured view would be that the political system in Afghanistan is not ideal and there are obvious inequities but not all aspects of Islamic culture are bad/wrong, and to judge Afghanis by your ethnocentric standards is itself unfair. Her rhetoric is that of any empire builder, she wants to meddle and change a people who, were it not for USAs intervention in the 1980s, would have nothing to do with her.

Alan Jarvis, London,

Thats not the Barbarity of Islam, its the backwards and ridiculous cultures of people who just happen to be Muslim. I say that the reason Muslims are catching such a bad rap is because there are so many Ignorant Muslims who DO NOT study there own religion and DO NOT READ anything for themselves. Instead they sit back and allow someone else to dictate to them how Islam should be practiced and how a Muslim should live and thrive. In just about any situation where you allow someone else to essentially think for you, you open the door to unchecked bias towards THEIR ideals, priorities and feelings. Where as if Muslims simply read and studied for themselves regarding the treatment of women,arrogance,marriage, human rights,tolerance - You would have had an entirely different experience. You see this situation the world is in is becoming increasingly tense and dangerous. The consequences of wittingly or un-wittingly waging a misguided WAR on Islam...The enemy is the willing ignorance of man.

Iman, Boston,

Unbelievable! It's nice to actually hear what we know from someone who's been there.. Love the way they blame 'tiny Israel' for everything. So pathetic.

Sara, London,

So why do many muslim women in the UK black themselves out and then claim that "It is our faith"? Who's telling lies? The religion is supposed to be so wonderful and yet when I read the book(s), I thought - "what was the point - it's already been written in the Bible? But without many of the derogatry comments about Jews, Christians and changing religion. Do Muslims know that the message was already written? You also keep hearing the words "Forbidden - not allowed" etc. It very much reminded me of boarding school but at least you knew that one day you'd be free. Essentially, Islam is a Middle Eastern religion that suits the dictats of centuries of tyranny. It's no good having fine words and rules - even if they were copied - if no one obeys them therefore it would be daft to worship a Prophet whose followers show such barbarity and so little regard to themselves and other religions.

Phil, Preston,

I am no Muslim, and would not presume to know or interpret the teachings of Islam. I am not one to accuse anybody of being a "bad" Muslim.

However, actions speak louder than words. Islam is as Islam does. The outsider can form a legitimate opinion about a religion by observing the behavior of its adherents.

Looking at Iraq today, how can one possibly believe that no Muslim can find a justification of violence in his religion? Looking at the treatment of women in Afghanistan and thereabouts, how can one believe that what is general practice there cannot be justified to the satisfaction of the practitioners as being in accord with Islam?

While some may say that the treatment of women is a cultural matter and not "Islamic" why should we believe this? If the mullahs are in the forefront of the controversy, why should we not accept that they have the right to speak for their religion and to judge accordingly?

Charles, Charlottesville, USA

It is unfortunate that weak people will always use religion to justify their misogyny, hate, fear, power hunger, etc. It's easily done as most religious texts were written by these same weak men throughout history. Islam is no less or more to blame then many other religions, however those countries and people who are still using these excuses need to be challenged. The main problem with tackling this through religion is it helps to make people blind to any facts that may exist, it's too big to generalise about so we need to find another way to tackle this problem.

Kieron, Cardiff, Wales

Mike, Bradford.

The ghastly Taleban is indeed barbaric and I assure you Muslims are appalled at their violent, uneducated, literal interpretation of Islam. This cannot be disputed by any sane person Muslim or otherwise who lives in the West.

However, this is not the issue here. Chesler equates her own experiences in a backward, war torn, illiterate country like Afghanistan to be typical of a hugely diverse religion followed by 1.5 billion people from Argentina to Zambia encompassing all races. There is SE Asian Islam, Euro Islam, South Asian Islam, Sunni - Shia Arab Islam, Sufism, Wahabism, African Islam, Classical Islam and so on. Each type has different cultural attachments which makes it unique from the other. Cheslers inability to distinguish between the culture of Afghan peasants and a global religion rightly deserves criticism. It is this type of garbage which ensures that we are deliberately misled by people such as Chesler for their own political gain.

Sami , Glasgow, Scotland

I have traveled in moslem countries and I think this brave an honest lady deserves better than some of the comments from obviously ignorant and self opinionated fools.

Robert, Derby, Derbyshire.

I don't recognise this imaginary Islam that Shahid and Ms Bashir are defending. It certainly isn't the Islam of the Qur'an and the Sunnah, which quite unequivocally promotes and glorifies exactly those anti-human practices which Prof. Chesler condemns. Shahid and Ms Bashir - are you truly so ignorant of your own religion, or are you merely practising that time-honoured Muslim custom of deceiving the infidel about Islam?

Chris, London, England

How then does the author explain the phenomenon of Benazir Bhutto (elected female prime minister of 150m Pakistanis) and Khaleda Zia (elected female prime minister of 130m Bangladeshis?

If the Islam she talks about is true then there is no way on earth the above could have happened.

Samuel, Europe,

I cannot believe the ignorance of this woman! How can one not differentiate the difference between a religion and human nature. It is not Islam that tells men to rape women, or commit murder etc etc. As a Muslin woman I will defend my religion as i think its teching are quite the oposite to popular belief. Its the only religion I know that demands that women are treated with respect.

Hey Professor, go back to school and relearn Islam!

ayse ergen, london, UK

It is unfortunate that authors who have not studied a religion are permitted to write about it, therein influencing public perception. The author in this case is as much in the dark as the culture that she was subjected to. Her treatment was disgraceful but her treatment of Islam is also disgraceful and will have an impact beyond herself to other unenlightened people who jump to conclusions without educating themselves in Islam. Do not judge a book by its cover.

Asim, london, UK

What is slavery? It is nothing more than the devaluation in relative value of a fellow human being.

In this bicentennial year since the abolition of slavery in the UK, pause to remember the words of an abolutionst: ‘Am I not your brother?’

Like the lashes of a slaver’s whip, intolerance and dogmatism, prejudice and a sickening lack of empathy diminish us all.

isaac matiwa, london,

I think history can do a lot to prove that Islam does in fact at least tolerate such mistreatment of humans. The Western nations have had their misdeeds but are now past them and still learning from new ones. Many Islamic nations and culture still seem to be stuck in the 1200s. No evolution, no new thought and no contributions to society.

I have met many gracious Islamic people and have enjoyed their company tramendously. However, turning on the news and seeing first hand the hypocrisy and intolerance makes anyone believer that the cultures and religion are tightly woven together into midevil mess.

mark, washington, d.c., usa

To Alphonso Parelli: Ayn Rand
To the rest of you: Did the Prophet marry a seven-year old named Aisha? Yes, so how are child brides cultural, not Islam?
Did he say that a husband MUST beat a disobedient wife (as a last resort)? Yes! So how is the subjugation of wives cultural?
All these lies you read here about how Islam is peaceful are called taqiyyah. Don't you know that the truth is ALWAYS your friend?
Islam is the only religion which not only accepts slavery, but tells in considerable detail how it shal be regulated (16:71, 30:28).
If anything the author of this piece was holding back so as not to shame Muslims too much.

R.C. Kuffar, Alexandria,

The hateful responses to your article, particulary those from Muslim writers (mostly semi-literate) illustrate exactly what the problem is. One can debate whether the barbarity you describe results from Islam or just exists side by side with it. What is not debatable is that only a few courageous Muslims are willing to speak out and challenge the horrors that exist within many Islamic countries and communities and to advocate and work towards a better path. The West isn't perfect, heaven knows, but our standards of education, medical care, human rights, respect for women, toleration of differences and overall decency are much higher, and no-one need be ashamed to say so.

James Warren, Washington, DC, United States

It remains astounding that the Left of the western world, which has fought so valiantly and courageously to curb Fundamentalist Christian dogma from the Right which has attempted to restrict their rights and liberties and impose its belief system, now constantly seem to refuse to stand up against the far more frightening Fundamentalist Islam, and call it what it is. Academics, politicians, celebrities, feminists, gays -- what in the world are they thinking about? It's like battling Musollini's Black Shirts, and then turning around and making excuses, appeasing, and standing up for the rights of the Nazis -- out of the frying pan and leaping into the fire! Madness.

Don McKellar, Toronto, Canada

A well written article that has been thankfully published. Sometimes I just wonder, if this will ever stop. The attitude of Islam is based on the concept of intolerance. A society built on this has no chance to progress. For them progress in only in terms of number of wives and children they have. Unfortunately this is happening in the west. In the UK there have been instances of men, forcibly converting women to Islam, unfortunately nothing is being done about it.
Islam is incompatible with the modern society and you have very well highlighted in your wonderful article.

Preshit Mulay, Wadebridge, Cornwall

It has always amazed me that more "liberals" haven't condemmned the oppressive treatment that many they claim to champion - women, gays, the poor - have been living under.

And to those above who say she should have known better or been smarter than to see her husband like this, you are blaming the victim for the rape. You should be ashamed to condone such treatment.

There are a few absolutes in the world, and this article demonstrates one of them - oppression against women is wrong, and we shouldn't even try to "understand" it.

Russ, Kansas City, USA

This article is a clear demonstration of the ignorance of bigotry. Barbarity of Islam??? How boorishly offensive is that misguided phrase!? Please get a grip and get off the Islamophobia bandwagon by presenting a truly intellectual argument.

EA, London,

It is a shame that someone compares between Christianity and Islam. One says "Thou Shall love your enemies" and the other says "Thou shall kill your enemy"

N, Cairo, E

Paulo is right -- you judge a tree by its fruit. But I would also argue that Europe achieved a measure of civilisation despite, not because of the Catholic Church, which has fiercely opposed social progress for untold centuries.

rr, London, UK

The racism is not in condemning the horrible things you witnessed, but attributing those horrible things in a specific circumstance to all Islam in any circumstance.

Thats about as useful as condemning all Christians because of sexual abuse of Catholic priests.

The fact of the matter is I lived in Saudi Arabia for a decade in the 80s, and the fact of the matter is "barbarism" is more directly proportional to tribalism than religion.

ps. You also dont know what fascism is.

ryan, yokohama,

With respect to the opinions expressed by the posters here, it is disingenuous to attempt to seperate Islam from the cultures it abides within. Just as British attitudes are the product of the traditions of thousands of years of culture mixed with the tangled web of Christianity, attitudes in Muslim countries are surely the partial product of Islam. As Christianity has changed over the centuries, so has Britain. If Islam ever manages to change, so will Muslim countries.

Gordon McStraun, London, GB

I know exactly what Phyllis is talking about. In 1973 I went with a girlfriend on a hitchhiking holiday to Morocco. It was a real eyeopener. At one point I was introduced to a 'white slave' - a 9yr old blond girl who presumably had been abducted - by a wealthy affluent Moroccan (and government minister). I came away from that holiday with a feeling of amazement that all this - and so much more - went on so close to Europe. I have nothing at all against individual Moroccans - we are all the same skindeep. On the other hand, I did learn that as Europeans our cultural inheritance is the best thing we have going for us. Not a lot of people know that - and don't kid yourself, it is worth fighting for.

Rake, London, UK

Three cheers for Phyllis.

t.c.chopra, delhi, india

Alfonso - if you google Jane Heal you'll discover a great female Western philosopher. Enjoy.

WW, London,

"If this country is such a beacon of equality then how come women are still paid less than men for doing the same job?"

Right, Sam, because receiving unequal wages is the same as being on the wrong end of institutionalized marginalization and sequestering, and routinely being beaten and raped.

I think Starling from Lancaster made a pretty correct statement. I think it would be more correct to say that the extent to whicih Islam is cruel depends on the degree to which it is adhered to - just like Christianity.

Also, it is possible that BOTH Islam as a religion and the cultures of Muslim countries are evil and anti-life.

Daniel, a town, MA

Simone Weil. By the way, Dostoïevski is not a philosopher and Camus hardly one.

GL, Paris,

It is amazing (but unfortunately eminently predictable) the hostile reaction of many commentators to the truth and reality of the treatment of women in many traditional tribal cultures in South Asia and the Middle East. Effectively they are saying the authors experiences do not fit with their cosy world view, therefore she must be lying/stupid/both. It is rather unfortunate that these commentators demonstrate the same bigoted ignorance that the author experienced, and are apologists for the barbaric inequalities that such traditional societies perpetrate. No doubt the mindlessly politically correct will accuse me of racism for saying the above, however, having spent a number of years working in such societies as a development worker, the authors experiences are typical of many of the people I worked with – and blaming the west for this is a vacuous and facetious to say the least.

Peter, London, England

I lived in Saudi Arabia and Islam was enforced with a sub machine gun. Women were treated like dirt and at every chance the Saudis were in Bahrain getting drunk in the hotel bars. Islam is a religion of hippocrates.

Lord Robert, Del rosa, USA

powerful commentary...finally, a flowering of forgotten but true liberalism in these pages

tom, tallahassee, us/fl

Wonderful to see this article published here - it's refreshing to hear someone telling it like it is.

Matt, London,

Islam purports to be a "Way Of Life". These Islamic countries claim to be following Islamic law. The fact that they can commit these atrocities in the name of Islam, without anyone declaring Jihad against them, shows that Islam as a Way Of Life is not working.

I believe it is right to blame Islam if a so-called Islamic country allows this to happen. Religions need to be accountable. Catholicism is ruled by the Pope. He stands as the spokesperson to all Catholics as well as to the non-Catholic world. Islam has no similar structure and therefore, no accountability. It is a chaotic religion, with everyone applying their own definitions of how it should be lived.

The commentors here might be saying that what she experienced was un-Islamic, but the Muslims there were justifying their behaviour precisely by saying it is the essence of Islam.

Maria, Manchester, UK

Muhammad waged 27 battles, always took 1/5th of the booty for himself, took wives from his slain enemies, married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was 9 and he was 54, owned hired and rented slaves (some of the 'booty' he acquired in battle), personally beheaded approx 600 men & boys who'd surrendered (according to his own followers' testimonies), referred to Jews and Christians in bigotted terms and ordered Moslems to offer conversion or subjugation as 'dhimmis' to Jews &Christians, if they refused, they were to be killed, all other groups killed outright, he cursed Jews & Christians on his deathbed. Spencer: TRUTH ABOUT MUHUMMAD Koran, ahadith and Sunnah (Law) mandate for beating of wives, social, educational and physical degradation of women, child brides, etc. All these are due to Muhammad's own example (marrying 9 yr olds is law in many islamic countries specifically based upon his own conduct with Aisha). These are not social mores, they are Islam's teachings.

Times reader, london, england

julia domna wife of Emperor Septimius Severus

give me a clue, manchester, uk

"Islam does not teach subjugation of women."

I'm afraid it does, actually. But then again, so does the Bible.

I recommend that you have a good look at the Bible, especially if you can get hold of one illustrated by Gustave Doré (his pictures emphasise the cruelty of things so nicely). It's not much better than the Koran (especially the Old Testament), but people no longer take it literally. Most of the time.

Islam needs to move on too, but in countries with a culture like Afghanistan's, it isn't going to.

Starling, Lancaster,

I was horrified to read the caption including the words 'Barbarity of Islam'..not only because i am a Muslim, and as an educated, well traveled Muslim i know Islam does not advocate or encourage bloodshed, barbarity, subjugation, discrimination, etc. but also because this is why Muslims like myself feel alienated. I did not grow up in a house where my mother was beaten or assaulted, or was prohibited from going out or to see male doctors, or to have to wear a veil...and neither do hunderds of thousands of muslims around the world! She was a dynamic career woman, as well as a great mother and wife...what us 'ignorant' muslims call and respect as a complete woman! Don't call us barbaric, fanatical or intolerant, because we are not...I felt disgusted having read this article because the author presents ALL Muslims and Islam in the same light, and based upon her subjective experiences..i'm surprised she went all the way to Afghanistan without first learning anything about the culture there?

Ali Bukhari, London, UK

OK, all you contributors who say that the treatment of women in Afghanistan is un-islamic and a cultural deviation not to be blamed on Islam, do you agree that the Taleban and all those who would like to impose such behaviour should be resisted? Yes or no?

Mike Woodman, Bradford, UK

Misogyny is a feature of all pre-modern societies, not least Christian Europe.

Equating one pre-modern society with a world religion of over a billion souls, then describing that religion as "barbaric", is hardly likely to lead to the Enlightenment that the author claims to seek.

Alan, London,

Interesting to see how many posters have equated the subjugation of women, marital rape and all the other barbarities of the cultures of Islamic countries with nudity and sexual morality in the West. This gives further evidence of the backwardness of some peoples' priorities.

Dan, London, UK

I agree with you that attitudes in countries such as Afghanistan are completely unacceptable, and the removal of the Taliban is to be welcomed. However I do take issue with your claim that 'we will also be overrun by Sharia in the West'.. how on earth did you reach this conclusion??

I also agree that Israel isn't responsible for the bigotries and idiocy of the Arab world, but it's not helping the situation either, is it?

Owen, London, UK

Allo allo from paris says " forced marriage is not allowed in islam."

When the 52 year old Prophet Muhammad married the six year old child Aisha was the child's consent taken?

When Muhammad took the child Aisha to bed when she turned 9 and had had her first menstrual period, was teh child's permission to have sex with the 56 year old man taken?

Ted Baines, new york, USA

Afghanistan has never been colonised and so this barbarity could not be attributed to Western influence. This goes without saying. As an educationist I worked in the Moslem North of Nigeria for 11 years from 1955 -1966. My own memories are of a backward but peaceful country almost completely free of crime. No need to lock the car or the house and in the hot season my wife and three young children slept outside without fear while I went off to 'bush' interviewing etc. We battled to educate girls but my teaching was rewarding. Under the system of indirect rule Shari Law took the form of family law and wives lived in purdah but there was no barbarity of stoneing and amputation. Now most states have applied Shari Law even on Christian minorites and thousands have been slain - Usama Bin Ladin is top dog.

Dr James Elliot, Plettenber Bay, South Africa

Everyone is entitled to confuse faith with religion until teaching or experience proves the association between the two to be false.

Faith is a belief in God - religion is usually an excuse to oppress (the multitude) or impress (everyone else with your dedication and piety). Fortunately for real believers, God doesn't oppress and he isn't impressed with mere appearance and practice - those failings are reserved for humanity alone.

KR, Stockport,

While I agree that religion and culture have to be separated while judging people, one cannot ignore the fact that ..iraq, iran, saudi arabia, afghanistan, pakistan, bangladesh...all have something in common. I respect Turkey and am dying to visit it but I also acknowledge that only a handful of countries like Turkey and Malaysia are exceptions to the rule.

The first thing Muslims need to start doing is stop denying that there is a problem. The rest will sort itself out.

Bharat, Bangalore, India

What do you know about Camus and Dostoyevsky? - you're a woman. To prove I'm not sexist, go on and name one great female western philosopher...

Alfonso Parelli, London, UK

I have to agree with another comment on here- this lady is smart enough to get an article written in the Times about her experiences but was stupid enough to be duped by her so-called husband??

Inequality happens everywhere, it just happens to be fashionable to blame Muslims for everything- remember how Hitler tried that with the Jews?
If this country is such a beacon of equality then how come women are still paid less than men for doing the same job? i was reading an article last night about a conservative club that won't allow women to play snooker there. Such equality! The world is not perfect but don't persecute whole religions for it- thats what breeds hatred and hostility. Have we learnt nothing from 2 World wards?

Sam, Manchester,

The experience she had in afghanistan has nothing to do with islam. The attitudes she experienced are all contradictory to the teaching of islam. Islam as a religion aims to abolish these attitudes. The attitudes that you see in muslim countries are cultural and not religiuos. Find out about the true teachings os a religion before blamming it for peoples attitudes.

ms bashir, manchester, uk

Well said

Peter , Reading, UK

Islam does not teach subjugation of women. That is a social thing; and Muslims are not the only ones to have ever dominated or exploited women. Do not forget that the exploitation of the weak is what our society and the entire capitalist system is based on.
I agree that such treatment or behaviour is unacceptable, but do not drag Islam into the mix. Islam has nothing to do with Afghani culture (and mind you, it is the Afghani culture that dictates the treatment of women in such a fashion). Had you any real knowledge of Islam, you would know how to tell the difference between the effects of culture and religion. Just as promiscuity and pre-marital sex is not a part of Christianity, neither is ill-treatment of women. Yet both take place. Does not mean that either religion advocates or teaches it.

Naveed T, Khi,

To the naysayers above, who blame the culture, not the religion: Judge a tree by the fruit it bears. If 1400 years isn't enough to produce a few sweet and juicy fruit, well, something is defiinately wrong.

Paulo, Taipei, Taiwan

pourquoi et comment?about why and about how
because we shut up when ho cho mhin and the viet cong were supposed to be the freedom figters,because we keep silent when mao tse toung was the leader,because we blind ourself when fidel castro used to talked about la revolucion,because we didnt hear the cryes and tears of pol pot victims,because like the germans we prefered to be red than dead and so on it has been Munich after Munich,there were no aldof hitler,but third world countries arrogant and unscrupulous.the algerian revolution the decolonisation of africa,the rhodesia and so on we kept silent and now what? the muslims.Lenin was right when he used to talked about les" idiots utiles" the "useful stupid",the one that believes that around the corner the world is more beautiful,even if there is no democracy.How much people supported the idea that arabs countries didnt need democracy the very same people that lived in democracy plus the arabs as a whole that ignore what democracy was al

Allo,Allo from paris, paris, france

For someone who experienced "Islam" first hand, she never once succeeds in differentiating between Islam and cultural values. Also the misogynistic treatment of women by men that subjugates women despite rights accorded to them in the holy Quran including rights in marriage, divorce, property, inheritance, education etc.
After the revelations in the holy Quran, 90% of authenticated hadiths are attributed to one of the Prophet's wife. It is only cultural values that are failing true Islamic principles not the other way round. For example, forced marriage is illegal.

Shame you couldn't have made this distinction.

tk, london, uk

The extent to which Islam is cruel depends on the culture in which it is practised. The culture determines how the Koran is interpreted, and which parts are adhered to. A lot like Christianity, really. After all the Bible states you are perfectly entitled to sell your sister into slavery ... we just choose to ignore that bit.

Starling, Lancaster,

Joseph K, of Valbonne in France, states that "what gets practiced in the name of Islam has no correlation to Koran." It may be true but people can only be judged by their actions. These people claim to be muslims. I am very familiar with that part of the world and what Phyliss has said is very true.

Vinay Mehra, Purley, Surrey

She has confused the cultural differences of different Islamic nations. Islam is more a way of life than hust a religion, the descriptions of her way of living would be found similar if she had married into royalty. She would have certain expectations, demeanour to follow. Not all muslim women are confined regardless of whether they live in a western or eastern country. Calling Islam a barbaric and backward, with ancient morals is totally wrong. Islam is one of the religions that gave women equal rights long before feminism was born, it is totally incorrect that she would use her 'personal' life experiences to claim that Islam is the root of women's passivness.

Nazash Asif , London , England

No offense to your choices, but you chose an Afghan husband. I am surprised you did not know about their way of life. But that does not mean you can blame this on the barbarity of Islam.

If I see public nudity in Europe or America, I do not blame it on the vulgarity preached by Christianity. Why can't you learn to separate religion from cultural values and also how people and cultures tend to interpret the religion.

shehzad, istanbul,

Well done for blasting all the sentimental nonsense about indigenous Islam...the problem though is that there is still this belief that there is a civilised Islam around on paper . There is a civilised Islam in lots of people's hearts, but on paper it denies one billion people the right to choose their own religion, demanding death for all apostates. Let Muslim leaders come and denounce this apostasy law, otherwise, why should they be called civilised? And let it start with the Saudis.

Thomas, Godalming, UK

Phyliss should not confuse the culture of the country with religion. If she goes to a poor African christian country she will also come across some horrid behaviour towards women.
On the other hand if she comes to Turkey and a number of other muslim countries she will see very civilised societies with women and men working alongside each other.
Unfortunately, is she goes to less educated parts of these same countries she will come across the same grim behaviour towards women.
It is the women themselves that have to be enpowered to stand up for themselves and be active. If you are passive then of course the stronger people will put you down.
There are many good things in the Koran which apply to the modern world, people who practice islam must look for these things and not get stuck in the past.

R. Ince, Istanbul, Turkey

The trouble is that Islam is not a religion in the sense that Christianity is. The ideal Islamic state of affairs is not our familiar one of church and state but simply a churchandstate that has combined religious and secular authority for its combined religious and secular power. And so there is an enormous tendency towards "Islam is what the rulers say it is"; and "it is heresy to question the way this country is run".

For example, an Islamic Archbishop of York would never criticise the government... unless he was challenging the rulers with the intention of replacing them.

Islam cannot survive unless it learns how to exist autonomously and not as a co-dependent part of a state. Western Muslims have a big part to play in showing their co-religionists that such a pattern can work.

Joseph Bruno, London,

Chesler complains that she has been "heckled, menaced, never-invited, or disinvited for such heretical ideas". Perhaps the reason she has become unwelcome in some circles is that she chooses to associate with the bigots of Front Page Magazine, whose view of Islam (among other things) is so jaundiced as to make it look like a glimpse into a totally different world. I have personally seen articles on that site which contain smears against Muslims which could be debunked simply by clicking on the links provided.

As for her experiences in Kabul, if she is speaking the truth, the reality is that she was from a middle-class American family and married into a posh Afghani one. If she married into a British aristocratic family, the chances are she would not be as free an agent as she had been in New York. As for the "secular Islam" summit, I know of plenty of Muslims (male and female) who support social reform without denouncing most of their religion.

Yusuf Smith, New Malden, England

I couldn't spot the supposedly explicit blaming of the Koran in Phyllis Chesler's piece, that Joseph K. so takes against in his comment. Perhaps he reads in to the article what he wishes to see and therefore seemingly then to repudiate. The book (as is the case with that other book, the Bible) is certainly used to justify cultural predilections -and not merely in "backward" Afghanistan. You'll find the same attitudes (to differing extents perhaps) in any Western European enclave of muslim immigrants, and that surely suggests this isn't merely the customs of the country but a more insidious underpinning based on unenlightened interpretation of faith (and that book).

Occam, Solihull, UK

Islam does have a huge problem but an even bigger problem lies with naive multiculturalist liberals in the West who think that the problems of developing countries are due almost exclusively to their colonial past. This article shows that this is not the case. The real danger lies with Western liberals who are systematically destroying the Judaeo-Christian and Humanist heritage of Europe. Europe needs to overcome its moral and intellectual inertia. Islam in its present form remains for the most part a backward and dangerous religion that ought to be resisted by the superior democratic values of the West. Sharia has no place in a free society. Do people realise that cities like Amsterdam will be majority Muslim within several decades (see Ian Buruma's book 'Death in Amsterdam'). It is morally inappropriate for us to continue to be held ransom by minority pressure groups, eg. Islamic, who wish to undermine our customary and constitutional freedoms.

JL, Paris, France

Joseph K, let me help you with some "correlation":

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Koran, 4:34

Alexander, Ecclesia,

Shout this from all the rooftops!

And, whilst you are at it, send a copy to Clare College, Cambridge, and the leader of the student "islamic society" there ......

What suprises me is thst you did not realise this in advance, because islam is a religion, after all, and all religions are a combination of moral and physical blackmail.

Well done, and well-said, nonetheless.

G. Tingey, London, England

Regarding your marriage to this man, are you saying that you were gullible enough to be completely deceived by him or are you saying that you were just stupid?

Luciano , Bristol, UK

Joseph K is correct. The Bible was not responsible for the Crusades. The Koran was. Had the followers of Mohammed not conquered previously Christian parts of the world to establish a cruel and rapacious Islamic hegemony, there would have been no Crusades.

Shouvik Datta's has some merit and I tend to agree that the lesson is that engaging with Moslem organisations seems to end in disaster and it is better to respond vigourously to rebuff Moslems demands.

Regarding the article itself, the anti-racists to whom the writer refers are misanthropes hiding behind an ideology which political correctness protects.

Marion, Cheltenham,

We hear constantly that the abhorrant practices perpetrated by religious fanatics are nothing to do with Islam. Tell that to the 6000 pre-pubescent muslim girls circumcised each day throughout the muslim world. Quite frankly, any parent who can do that to their own child is a religious psychopath, and the West should have grave concerns about the practices and beliefs of what is a growing segment of it's population. You cannot disconnect this medieval practice from Islam and say that it doesn't reflect true Islam because it obviously does. I have no concerns about the nutty religions, but the dangerous ones should cause us all in the West to focus our attention on our societies and not permit ourselves to be overrun by fanatics.

H Day, ashford,

Phyllis
your opinion totally shocked me, how educated women like you have a stupid opinion from great community based only from tribal custom in Afganisthan. As Joseph stated, what you saw in Afghanisthan is not the teaching of Islam but people who abuse the teaching of Islam or Koran. Better for you if you learn from the main source of Islam teaching i.e Koran and Hadits. But if the hadits oposite to Koran, take the Koran because some hadits consider doubtful. The most important, some laws in Koran are only
well understood by accompany with the history of prophet or the background history of the verse revelation, such us cutting the hand of thief, it was never implemented during Muhammad live because if somebody stealling because he/she has no money to feed his family, the community especially the rich has responsibility to give him/her job or alm.

ai, bangkok, Thailand

It saddens me to see that Professor Chesler is unable to distinguish between cultural practices and Islam. I can only hope and pray that she finds time to understand the teachings of Islam which are contrary to what she experienced. She writes about her personal experience but gives the article an emotional title!! Why?
By giving such a title to her article Professor Chesler clearly shows that she has no consideration for interfaith understanding or Islam.
I feel sorry for her and her students.

Khalid Haque, Weybridge, United Kingdom

enough with cursing the west...It is well established that being critical of the thirdworld countries and specially the muslim countries make you an ennemy of democracy,that was the language used for years and most of all blaming "colonialism" for the failing of theses countries.One thing must be said once and for all clanism ,tribalism,sectarian division are the reason why the muslim can't reach the "enlightement".Nasser,Kadafi,Bourguiba,Arafat... have fuelled this feudal reality for their own interest,but one must also be said that the people,the intellectuals,women,the bourgeoise and the proletariat were the first to support it.It si not only the "elite" that are to be condemned but the society as a whole.In the arab countries the"proletariat" has awlways been fascist,but no one has ever dare to say it so.Why because of blackmail and the politically correctness used in the west for years.A white man doesnt have the right to judge a non white man.Enough of this...

Allo,Allo from paris, paris, france

What an excellent and enlightened article. Of course she will be pilloried by the trendy left for her brave exposition of the truth about the inherent evil of Islam. It is no good apologists bleating that this is not the true meaning of the Koran - the fact is that there must be something in this religion which leads its adherents to take a consistent hatred of all things 'unislamic'

As she so ably demonstrates, the position in Afghanistan is nothing to do with the imposition of Western values on an islamic society. It is nothing to do with plucky little Israel just fighting daily to survive. (just look at a map for heavens sake to see the truth).

The world tried to appease another dictator in 1938 while he was planning to shovel 6 million Jews into gas chambers. Funny how the far right and the far left with their islamic cohorts are still trying to do the same thing and the West still appeases them.

Jay, London,

For a self proclaimed intellectual to confuse Afghani customs and traditional way of life and then label it as Islams barbarity is the height of hypocricy,wake up and smell the coffee!
This piece has the hallmark of a failed marriage and the recriminations and regrets that followed and is unworthy of being aired in public to malign the fastest growing religion in the world

Ahmed, Durban,

I was amused to read your experience in Afaganstan, you are an educated psychologist who was led in to a society that has tradition and believes, according to you you were blind to the fact of the difference of tradition between an open society and a close one. What is worse you did not enquire about those believes as a psychologist befor embarking on a marriege which led you to another country and another way of life. Islam never seprated women from men during its early birth. I do not under stand why to involve Israel in your article and try to clear its history of its apartheid behaviour. Finally Edward Said is Christian not muslim, and Turkey and Egypt and Indonisia and Tunisia are Muslim countries yet there is equality. So its the society rather than the Islam which is the issue Dear Professor.

Dr Serewel, Crewe, UK

Joseph K, Valbonne, France

your comments are typical of moslems in the west.
You have a life in a democracy, the chance to be productive in a productive, functioning economy, you have equal rights, freedom of speech all the luxuries that islam would deny you.

Why don't you try living in a moslem country, unfortunatly "islam does come into it".
There are clear references in the koran, haddith and sunnah and countless other islamic sources about beating women(beat your wives),rape of female captives (right hand possessions), slavery, the oppression of non moslems (jizya)
Did your prophet not say "war is deceit" and "I have become victorious through terror".

It is indeed strange that you choose to live in a non moslem country, are you to scared to live in one, does it not appeal to you ? airfares are cheap and airports plentiful, you are just a plane ride away from those perfect islamic countries.

Harry, London, UK

How did Phyliss eventually get away??

I know that some mixed race marriages work, but for the ones that do, there are many that don't.

I have a friend who is in a mixed race marriage, is now still married only because of the children. But has admitted that she should have thought it through more carefully before entering into it.

I have travelled a lot and lived in other countries, sadly, I don't think it is just religion that makes men treat woman as second class beings. Many males treat woman as breeding factories while others treat them like slaves.

Sadly, until these women feel able to stand up for themselves en mass, the circle will continue.

Frenchcountrygirl, London, UK

Very true and well put.

D J Rice, BURLINGTON, Vt, USA

I was amused to read your comment. You blame Islam and for someone whom has title of professor and should be educated, it sounds so narrow minded that it seems unbelievable.
I am not trying to be little your experience but this is the custom of the country. Islam does not come in to it.
I was born in a typical Muslim family. I am not a practicing Muslim. I know enough of Koran to say that what you describe or what gets practiced in the name of Islam has no correlation to Koran.
Perhaps you should blame the society that treats women as second class citizen and treats them as chattel for men. Blaming Koran would be equal to blaming bible to misdeeds of crusaders.

Joseph K, Valbonne, France

There certainly appears to have occured a regression in terms of standards of civilization in the Islamic world. For example, Afghanistan's neighbour Iran, was at one time a parliamentary democracy, rather than the religious theocracy of today. However itis the West in fact, that has consistently promoted religious fanaticism in the Islamic world. The US supported religious fundamentalist groups, fighting the Soviet-backed regime in Afghanistan during the 1980s. Also, Britain consistently supported the Muslim League in India, during the nationalist revolt against colonial rule: this eventually led to the creation of a separate Muslim state, today's Pakistan.

Shouvik Datta, Incheon, South Korea

Re: Mary Shelley's comment:
Phyllis has written about her escape from Afganistan. You can read her articles online at Frontpage Magazine.

Richard Brown, London, England

From what I've been reading from various sources for a long period of time the points that Ms. Chesler brings up cannot be untruths.There are simply too many people out there saying the same thing.

RON, topsham,

All this really comes down to is the fact that these people live in a very cultish enviornment. If you came from california or newyork or any other urban enviornment in the USA and went to the bible belt of Texas, or Utah, you would experience much of the fanaticism that you see in the middle east when it comes to females rights based on tradition. Tradition generally should be broken if / when it stifles the lives of people with blind judgment to conditions as was life during the mid evil period in europe. I think that the islamic culture can evolve, but i think due to the lack of education in middle eastern countries, it will take a great deal longer for the majority to become enlightend, or even rational / logical in their thinkings. It's kind of ironic, but muslims invented so many things we use today, most people don't even know. Such as condensation devices for liquors, hydrolics, and many more inventions we use today.

Robert, Hemet, USA/CA

There is a difference between Islam and bad people who happens to be Muslims.
I am a Muslim who is from Malaysia. It is alien to me the practices by some Muslims in the middle east and africa. Child brides and female circumcision are unheard of in my Islamic country.
What is going on over in those countries is not mentioned in Islam but are cultural practices that were carried over the ages by their respective people and culture.
Come to Malaysia and experience Islam here as proof that not all Muslim countries are alike. Therefore it is unfair to blame Islam for the misleading cultural practices by some muslims disguised as Islamic practices when they are clearly not.
http://muslimpath.blogspot.com

Aswad, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

I suppose no one was able to advise this ‘free thinking rebel’ that marrying a muslim and moving to Afghanistan might be less than awesome. It would be more interesting to hear how she escaped, whether she intends to return and if her husband divorced her (x 3).
Isn’t it ironic that her views should be considered extreme by the same intellectual mindset that disciplines the field in which she is a professor?
What is true is that non-intellectuals have always had ‘enlightened’ views – except that now they are prevented from expressing them – and as a consequence are left either heaving with indignation, or quietly bemused.

seamus, spain,

Indeed, Muslim and non-muslim alike need to draw a clearer line between, the traditions of Islam, and Islamic traditions. Essentially, this what what Martin Luther did to Christianity in his infamous thesis; he drew a line between the Christianity as portrayed in the bible, and the superfulous traditions and superstitions that had grown up around it.

Islam is not nessecarily evil because some muslims do those things, however, neither are those things excusable because muslims do them.

Jonathan Jones, Southampton, UK

I think this article only highlights how naive and idealistic many liberal westerners are. It also shows that love truly is blindness!

barry DuPont, brighton,

One cannot disagree with the writer's views on traditions in Afghanistan, nor with the assertion that these traditions are not fundamental to Islam, or found only in Islam. However, it is absolutely wrong to make excuses for the continuation of practices which are contrary to human rights, wherever they exist. Forced marriages and enforced purdah, discrimination against women generally, have been introduced into this country from South Asia, and women who suffer in consequence have been betrayed for too long by the Government, the police and social workers. We appear to be keener on supporting the relevant human rights in Afghanistan than here at home.

laurie clegg, Tunbridge Wells,

Islam has nothing to do with what the author has been through in Afghanistan. Her experiences were cultural, not Islamic. I'm surprised that she went over there considering the turmoil, as projected by western media, that the country has been in for over 25 years. Unfortunately, in most cases, barbaric cultural norms are attributed to Islam. I am a Muslim, single, independant, have worked in Pakistan in an establishment where I lead a team of 45 men for over 7 years. No veil. No back seat. Please do not judge the whole of Islam by one experience. We do not judge all Christians by the Crusades or all Americans by the way the Blacks were treated. In every culture and religion there has been a time where a few with power have perverted the truth. Islam is gentle and just.

Faruque, Karachi / Toronto, Pakistan/ Canada

Superb article. Echos my lesser experience in the middle east. Thanks for standing up to the threats that you no doubt experience and sharing your experience.

Sara, London, UK

Most professors in New York are more open minded and better educated than this. There are professors here who don't let their personal bias cause generalized judgments.

Phyllis Chesler:
YOU SHAME NEW YORK AND IT'S INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER LEARNING! Get out of our Universities!

Adam, New York City, USA / New York

In 1984, whilst training in the Royal Navy, I was invited by fellow Arab officer to attend their post Ramadan feast. The feast was held with my fellow officers wives in attendance and included people from Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. During this meal there was no evidence that women were treated as anything but equals. We ate together and exchanged views as equals. What was apparent though was the blatant racism of my fellow Brit officers towards the Arab trainees officers which was extended to myself for 'mixing' with them. My point is, we live in a Christian country where women were regarded as the property of men (in the eyes of the law) up until very recently. Woman only secured the vote in this country after nearly 2,000 years of Christianity. It is not the religion that discriminates against women -it is the men who manipulate the religious teaching to their own ends. The same was true in South Africa where whites manipulated Christianity todiscriminate against blacks.

Crashing Dashing Kid, Mobile,

Dear Nihad Kabir of Dhaka, Bangladesh. Only Christianity and Islam, two religions that are linked by a shared history, have passages that would be "barbaric" in these days. Buddhism, Taoism, and Hindus preach peaceful doctrine exclusively. That being said, Islam and Christianity in themselves are not violent religions. The practices preached in the respective texts were applicable at the time they were written, however, both religions have grown up with the times. It is the small group of Christians and Muslims that are inherently violent and bigoted, that interpret their respective scriptures to suit their own needs. You may recognise these groups as the fundamentalist Muslim extremists, and the American far right.

I also agree with Isaa of London. Ignorance breeds contempt, and most Islamophobes have little to no knowledge or experience of advance Islamic countries. Go and live in Malaysia or Jordan for a while, and you'll see what I mean. Similarly, Muslim extremists generalisation that all Americans or Brits are "evil" devilspawns is a similar weakness.

Pete, Cov,

Very irresponsible of the Times to publish such an article, is the barbarity due to Islam or due to people misusing Islam? Pathetic!!

Mass Rolandino, Berlin,

What this writer has to say is extremely helpful. Drip, drip, drip, slowly these things will get through to the women of our society and to muslim women in denial.

Phyllis, you are full of courage and I hope you stay safe since everybody knows stating your opinion in the muslim world gets you threatened, jailed and sometimes killed.

Thank God we live here, freedom of speech is an important freedom. We have it, they don't, now why would that be?

Carol , London,

This article, whilst obviously heartfelt and extremely subjective, brings to mind a line from a song, unfavoured on these shores, "so we're guilty one and all." Whilst I would agree that Afghanistan was, and probably still is, a terrible place for a woman to exist, this is NOT indicative of the whole of Islam. Saudi perhaps came closest in my experience, though even there, women are generally treated with courtesy. But elsewhere, we will always have those who insist on sexist practices being the norm, and let us not think that the UK is any different, but elsewhere, this is not the situation. I have always found Muslim men, even "at home" in the country of their birth, to be far more polite and friendly than many here in the UK. The only possible exception being the aforementioned Saudi Arabia, where I felt very vulnerable indeed. But please stop making generalisations from personal bad experiences, it does none of us any good.

Jennifer Hynes, Barry, Cymru

She writes: "I never saw my passport again." I wonder how she got out of Afghanistan. That's at least another article.

Mary Shelley, London, UK

Those who first called for a Christian Enlightenment a few centuries ago tended to get boiled alive for publishing proscribed books. Once one of the Abrahamic religions gets a grip on temporal power, it's generally reluctant to let go without a bloodbath.

One thing that strikes me about those in the UK who toss words like "Islamophobia" around is the extent to which they conflate cultural traditions with religious instructions (those schoolchildren and their dress codes, for example). Perhaps one approach might be for those who know Islam inside out to start publicising much more widely cases where cultural practices inconsistent with Islam are falsely passed off as being "Islamic". Apart from anything else, it would help the rest of us learn more about the faith.

Ian Kemmish, Biggleswade, UK

This is an important view because it is based on first hand experience, and deserves to be heard carefully. I found out that Warraq's book will be available in the summer under the ISBN 1591024846. However I would like know what someone like Karen Armstrong, the well-known author of a sympathetic biography of Muhammad, would make of this article.

Miland Joshi, Birmingham,

The war against Muslims continues unabated. I've lived in many Muslim countries and your experience is completely alien to me. Polygamy is largely frowned upon in places like Pakistan, India and Turkey. The failure to recognise that Muslims are not a monolithic bloc is a form of the worst type of racism. Nobody would suggest: the Jew is this or what Judaism preaches based on the experiences of North African Jews. Quite rightly they'd be exposed for the racist that they are, so why should it be any different with Muslims.

Isaa, London, UK

An important article by a woman who knows what she is talking about.
http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm?blog_id=6087

EW, England,

Islam is not barabarous, any more than Christianity, Judaism or any other religion is inherently barbaric, yet much barbarity has been and continues to be committed in the name of all these religions. Neither is there something called the "Muslim World". We all live in our societies, cultures and with our own religious beliefs, and all these have good and bad interpretations and practices. Blanket statements such as those made in the article and the comments above are unhelpful. The Islam I believe in and practice is tolerant, thoughtful, open.

Nihad Kabir, Dhaka, Bangladesh

I totally agree with the writer as someone who has lived and worked in Pakistan and the UAE for 10 years.
It seems to me that people back home in the "West" have lost the judgement to distinguish between any kind of moral value of right and wrong and a distorted view of "Political Correctness", where to disagree is to be Racist or Bigoted.

Griff Jones, Dubai/UK, UK/UAE

All praise to Phyllis Chesler. This is what real womanhood is all about, and not that represented by the whining middle-class misandrists who fill western newspaper columns to overflowing with cultural-marxist tosh. Ms. Chesler operates an interesting and inspiring website, which deserves a larger audience.

Errol Flynn, Chester, England

A superb and impassioned piece - and needs to be circulated as wide as possible beyond the Times readership.

Particularly - though I'm not hopeful about this - to the Muslim world. They're the ones who need to hear it most.

Brendan, Melbourne, Australia

'Bout time. Others of us who have actually lived for years and speak the languages of those Muslim countries can vouch completely for this evaluation of Islam. Only those who are 'arm chair' liberals argue otherwise.

Roger Malstead, Wenatchee,

I tried to e-mail this excellent article to some friends and myself,but all we receive is a blank page!

COLIN , Hong Kong,

Congratulations to both the author and to the newspaper. My own personal observations of females treated in Islamic societies as at the level of slavery and chattel brings me to the conclusion that the greatest danger to African development has been and still is the spread of Islam carried out by fanatical and powerhungry leaders (see Nigeria). The salvation of Africa lies in its liberation of women to absolute equality , to universal and equal education, and spiritual and religious freedom. The Koran by itself does not subjugate the women, neither does the Old Testament. I agree with the above leader's vision that Islam needs to be totally reformed, not only enlightened, and be separated from the state as in every modern democracy. The recent fight of Iranian women demonstrating for equal rights is a positive sign and needs to be emulated in all other islamic countries.

Spiller, Hart, Gainesville, US/FL

The reason why Western intellectuals cannot defend the West is because of the rise of the egregious doctrine of post-modernism - the foundation of which is relativism or more accurately perspectivism. Any retreat from this toward absolutism would undermine thousands of careers and reputations. In short, the practitioners of post-modernism cannot admit they are wrong. The grip post-modernism has on liberal arts in the west should not be underestimated.

James , Canberra, Australia.

Is it racist to condemn fanaticism?
One would think that someone with more than a grade school education wouldn't entertain the thought. Apparently not. Which race is she writing about?

r. burns, tampa, Fla

richard, Arlington, usa

Is this Islam or Afghani culture?

Bill Bar, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

Phyllis - You are not alone. We are not all self-loathing, moral relativists.

The one thing I've noticed is that the bravest Muslims, the ones all speaking out, have been women.

M. Fernandez, San Francisco,

Barbarism begins at home. Rather than meddling in the affairs of others, we should look closer to home and confront the forces of oppression, exploitation, greed, corruption etc. that have done so much to empower those islamists you rail against. If the West left these countries to sort themselves out, then the dissidents you talk of would have a fair chance of rallying their people against oppressors who would be vastly weaker once the West stopped supporting them.

harlan Leyside, basildon,

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