The problem is that people do treat Muslims as Muslims when it suits their purposes, and then they point the finger at them for not being British enough when in fact, Muslims are not treated as being British anyway.

Muslims are supposed to apologise for the after-effects of their lands being invaded and bombed, and they are supposed to support 'our boys' (that is to say, the very people who are bombing them) in this venture yet at the same time condemn those who bring the so-called War on Terror back home to the UK. No such demands are made of other people.

What the UK has perpetrated abroad has come back to haunt it. As you sow, so shall you reap. Making repeated demands of British Muslims will not make this sin go away.

If I was asked to choose how I felt, 10 years ago I would have said I felt British. Now I feel Muslim, and being British is nothing to me any more.

Bilal Patel, London, UK

Islam prohibits freedom of speech and expression. It also puts women back several centuries where they are possessions and must obey their male masters, fathers or husbands and they don't get the husband by their own choice. Christianity was like this not long ago; in Franco's Spain, women were not allowed to leave the house except to go shopping or to church, which was absolutely mandatory. Islam should be mocked for it's stupidity, this is 2007 not 702.

michael wilson, bidache, france

Extremism in any form has two purposes: number one, to curtail the rights of the individual, and number two to be aggressivly expansionist.

History has proven that whether extemism comes in the form of Communism, Fascism or Islamiscism (eg, under the Taleban), the results are generally the same; misery and oppression for all but the favoured few. The regimes are often all but interchangeable - confirming the ciruclar view of politics that far right and far left eventually meet!

People assume that the cold war has finished but realistically, all that has happened is that the form of extremism, and the countries / indviduals supporting it, has changed, and the war continues. It is extremely foolish to appease extremism, but it is also dangerous to feed these regimes the oxygen of publicity. As Chairman Mao's cultural revolution demonstrated, repressive regimes use stupid, violent young men to enforce fear and subjection to the controlling powers.

Victoria, London,

I agree with the above comment made "Why do we have to "treat" Muslims? Why can't we just leave them alone?"
Speaking as a Muslim Qur'an was revealed as a guidance for the "whole humankind" and it is the free Will in human nature whether you accept it or not?
The writer needs to read the Holy Qur'an and make his judgment, dont judge the book by its cover meaning if you want to know about a religion, dont look at its followers rather look into authentic sources.
The article is written with bias feelings towards Muslims and the organisations mentioned are there for to help us understand each others faiths, cultures and needs, there would be no need for all this only if we were able to afford each other the due respect.

Zahid, London,

Islam does not allow Muslims to accept any part of the western way of life, therefore they have no reason or personal desire to be in the west, other than to change the western way, to that of Islam.
Because of this fact, all further migration to the west should be stopped immediately and Muslims already in the west, should be encouraged to migrate to lands that are sympathetic to their way of life.
East is East and West is West and that's the only way it can be.

Hillus, Perth, Australia

Why do we have to "treat" Muslins?

Why can't we just leave them alone?

Do we have to "treat" Anglicans, Methodists, Jews or Roman Catholics?

"Pardon me, M'am! Are you a ..............? You are?!
Oh,you poor dear! Well, come along with me please..I'm going to give you.. 'treatment'!"

Garth Rex, Glendale Heights, USA

To Naveed Yousafzai and Mohammed of London, you are both in such a state of denial you really should invest in blinkers!!!
As Shane of Guildford pointed out, there have been heinous terrorist attacks for years- since long before the Iraq war. How do you explain 9.11 and The Embassy bombings, just for starters??? Whatever the murderous suicide bombers might say to justify their crimes, the Iraq war is obviously no more than a convenient excuse - a distraction from the fact that these islamic militants want to kill as many people as possible - in as nasty and bloody a way as possible. They don't need a reason, and claiming that it's because of the Iraq war is just plain wrong. For sympathisers of these killers to point to the Iraq war (or anything else) as justification, is defending the inedefensible. If you don't want to be seen as sympathisers, start standing up and speaking out against the hate-filled philosophy of these murderers!!!

Miranda, Lincoln,

s.ahmed of Cairo, Egypt has made a valid point by noting that people confuse the opinions of scholars (mullahs) with islam itself. Consider this: in Islam there is no established tradition of Anti-Clericalism as there is in Europe. Anti-clericalism in Europe has had a violent history, but it has at least contributed to the job of forcing the Catholic church to adapt. As far as I understand, the Koran does not legitimise any priesthood or clerical authority at all. Sadly, for historical reasons, this didn´t happen in Islam. A tradition of free criticism within Islam called Ijtihad was forcibly suppressed as long ago as the tenth century - and never came back till today. Perhaps considering these points may help shed some light on why Moderate Muslims find it so difficult to organise and promote their collective viewpoint or viewpoints. And of course, the threat of violence from the extremists against dissenters doesn´t help!

cerronevado, Malaga, Spain

"A truly radical approach would be for the State to stop treating British citizens who happen to be Muslims mainly as Muslims. In other words, why does the Government still deem their religious affiliation the most important thing about them in the public space?"

Bravo! This is complete repudiation of multiculturalism. And so it should be! This is the approach that used to be taken in the US and Canada (probably many other places too, but I am not sure). And while it was taken, things were better. Now that multi-culti has become the main approach, things got worse in Americas too. So why not go back to what works.

I am an immigrant myself, so don't give me "compassion for immigrants" stuff. It's better for immigrants too.

David, Orange County, USA

Check out the work of the Barnabus Fund where they monitor the persecution of Christians, in particular, in Islamist countries. 23 from Korea are at this current moment being threatened with their lives by the Taliban . And in the UK currently the honour killing of the young woman found in a suitcase should be another wake up call to the indigenous tolerant Brit. Regretably Muslims are Muslims first and foremost, with their countries fortunes coming second. Such characters should be urged to return to a country where both can be applied with equal measure and leave us in peace.

Jack, London, UK

Naleem Jilani's claim that media focus is responsible for radicalisation and mistrust is misguided and wrong. The reason why criminals' muslim faith is often mentioned in articles concerning their crimes is because in many cases, a (possibly misguided) interpretation of the doctrine of that faith has lead them to commit crimes. This applies equally to the men convicted yesterday of what has been called an honour killing of a young woman and the men convicted of terrorism offences.

Focusing on the influence of media coverage ignores the elephant in the room that some muslims want to murder british citizens. This is a small percentage and everyone recognises that but last year's survey for the Guardian had 5% of muslims beieving that the suicide attacks on the underground were justified. Let's focus on that rather than media coverage.

Spencer, London,

Nationality has nothing to do with Islam. I am white British, so are my parents... back to my great-grandparents and beyond. I am also Muslim and a member of the AMP.

Steve revert, London, UK

what do you mean by assimilate.... eat the same food as non-muslims, not have a political opinion other than the government line, come to pubs and drink with work colleagues (have a dance, kebab and then fight!?)??? and what is this about leaving the country if you don't agree with things...so should an 80 year old white christian brit who fought in the wars leave if he disagrees with the iraq war or despises the way society is going with young half naked teens drinking on the streets? or is that just if they hold that opinion and happen to have ancestory outside the UK (how far back!?).... your arguments make no sense. Believe and practice what you want within the law..end of story.

tom, london,

"Once again the logic behind blaming the UK's involvement in Iraq as the reason for islamic terrorism baffles me."-- Shane, Guildford, England

It's only baffling for you because you've refused to listen to all the statements made by terrorists, claming exactly that, using video/audio recordings and through their websites. It's amazing how some people will try to refute, irrefutable facts.

Mohammed, London, UK

A point that is never discussed is why people with a strong cultural or religious focus to their lives (not only muslims) that may bring them into conflict with the prevailing host culture (even to the extent that they may despise it and act against it), choose to live amongst those with whom they feel little or no affinity rather than in a part of the world in which their own culture predominates.

Rob, Coventry, UK

This gentleman appears to have some difficulty in understanding the nature of Islam. The notion that Islam is primarily a religious belief is highly questionable. For some Muslims this is of course true, for others it is a form of personal identity or a political ideology.
The word "Islam" means simply "surrender to God". But a Muslim is also one who is born to a Muslim father without observing, or even believing, his confessional faith. This is by no means unique to Muslims; How many people who declare themselves "Jewish" observe the Halacha?
the political ideology element of Islam, which seeks to justify the sharia law as the ultimate determinant of Islamic life, ignores the fact that this has never been so. Throughout the history of Islam it has been the function of the Ulama, the members of the religious council, to advise and interpret the Koran to the administrators of the State. The State, and not "Islam", has always had the final say, indeed, Khomeni made this explicit.

John Wood, London,

Muslims who are British subjects should be treated as British subjects. Those who would like special treatment, concerning such matters as dress and religious customs in schools, should build their own schools, paid for by their own communities, along with Catholics, Jews and other faiths. Muslims who go to state schools should keep to the school rules that apply to every pupil.

Edmund Burke, Kingston upon Thames, Englland

arun, London..... what version are you reading!? If you don't know what you're talking about it's best to not just make it up.

tom, london,

Education, integration of peoples of all creeds and worldviews, freedom of criticism of religion in every way, and a move away from tribal victim mentality, will eventually solve all these problems.

Some liberties will have to be temprarily lost in the process though, such as ridding of faith schools and instead mandatory school mixing, dismantling of community groups such as MCB, and banning of veils and other religious symbols in public institutions like schools, but these will only be minor discomforts compared to the major discomfort due to the consequences of inaction.

Richard, London, UK

"This is a secular society," says T J Hughes, of London. Not true. Secularism may well be the outlook of the majority of posters on this thread, but in terms of actual law, the American Constitution - which is indeed secular and which most contributors here would classify as common sense - has no validity whatever in the United Kingdom. We are constitutionally a Christian monarchy.

Edmund Burke, Kingston upon Thames, Englland

at the end of the day wat Enoch Powell said was right. We should not be having this discussion because at the end of the day if us British were more hardline on protecting are values , ways and not opening the door to this multi racial farce;You would not have this situation arising as everyone would know were they stand

Jordell Harris, London, England

"Criticising someone who has made every effort to integrate is about as counter-productive for you as it gets". -- Gadaafi Duck., UK.

I am not criticising Nilesh nor am i suggesting the UK will use BNP to rid Islamic extremism. Are you suggesting that BNP only target Islamic, hindu or sri-lankan extremists?

My point was that IF one day Muslims in UK have had enough of continued anti-Islamic hatred, and being treated second class citizens (current situation), they may well packup and leave, and IF that does happen, who are going to help the British 'intergrated' hindu people during racist bnp paki/hindu bashing riots? (as i said bnp only looks at skin colour). This question was posted to Nilesh btw.

Pakistani boy, Bradford, UK

As a uk born muslim, I am sick and tired of having to defend my faith and my identity for the sakes of the actions of a warped minority.

I do not blame my fellow christian citizens for the actions of their peers in the past!! They as individuals were not responsible for the murders of millions in africa, the americas and the holocaust to name a few.

But alas in todays age, a comman enemy derived in the media sells papers and fear keeps the populace focused on the negative aspects of islam. Interesting that us moderates never get the media focus that we deserve, instead the radicals get the media spotlight.

The parallels to what the nazis created in the 30's is shocking, the hooked nose and wispy beard of the jew has been replaced by the full beard and turban of the muslim.

Most of us are assimilated into british society, I am sorry if young muslims are not lads and laddetes but most of us try to adhere to the parameters of the law.

Ishtaq Hussain, northampton,

BRAVO -
Thank you for speaking sense. I have often wondered why the Islamicists are playing the victim in their adopted western countries so much more than I ever remembered before. I think this constant complaining about headscarves etc is part of what many local extremist imam's are preaching nowadays. I expect the hope is that it by setting themselves apart, the have more potential opportunities to appear aggrieved and therefore more potential (though in my opinion disingenuous) excuses to bomb tubes and nightclubs when the fancy takes them.
What is a shame is that so many previously moderate Muslims seem to be getting caught up in this new hatred and victimhood.
I really believe that if they don't want to live as the English do, they need to get the hell out of England. After all, in this country we are obligated to serve the Queen first, not the bloody Quran.
One question : why DON'T they just go? If they hate it so much why do they stay?

John, Tunbridge Wells,

There is one thing you will not EASILY find, a RICH muslim terrorist. If you study past terrorists you are more likely to find out that they have grown in a poor environment. Poverty + Monocultural, ethnocentric Clerics = Extremism. You will not find many terrorists from upper class Dubai Families, for example, or from Qatar, where it is your constitutional right to have a job, due to oil revenues.

MB, Casablanca,

For goodness sake, kid gloves appear to be the agenda in the UK nationally and Government wise, you would of thought that Muslims are the chosen religion. Do not offend them because they are a volitile community and it would not work well for anyone to provoke or even argue with them. You could be chased along the Mc Carthyism route. Like for like all religious communities should show respect where they live and abide by the nations laws and traditions. Catholic and Church of England followers have in their own instance in history caused mayhem and inflicted their own stance on morality and code of conduct, this still is bubbling around the globe. However I have not seen any catholics kicking off and throwing a war against muslims, nor for that matter any other religion.

Each religon should know its place , in privacy fine, if you wish to educate others, open a hand, but do not ram it down peoples throat, you as they say reap what you sow.

Peter Hagan, Liverpool, England

A message for Naveed Yousafzai.

Once again the logic behind blaming the UK's involvement in Iraq as the reason for islamic terrorism baffles me.

Firstly, when one scrutinises the ongoing violence in Iraq, one sees that practically all torture and killings can be directly attributed to the terrorist groups (and there are various, all completely self interested) killing each other as well as innocents. In fact, I would go so far as to say that without the factionalised terroroism in Iraq, the US, the UK, and everyone else would have left the place years ago. So much for 'fighting the occupation'.

Secondly, if I recall correctly, there were a series of heinous islamic terrorist attacks way before the invaion of iraq. Need I remind you of 1) The Twin Towers, New York, 2001 2) Bombings in Nairobi and Dar es Salam, 1998 etc.

No. The logic of pinning this cancer on the US and the UK simply does not add up.

Shane, Guildford, England

I agree wholeheartedly with this argument, so much that I worry that I'm preaching to the choir, or the assembled group of singers who sing from the same page.

If we are talking about people and government, then our discussions concern things like people, streets, cities and boroughs, countries, counties and provinces.

To add a group of people following the same religion makes a mockery of democracy -- since you are always going to have to deal with the minority of people who don't belong to a particular religion (or any religion).

I don't think we should dignify any aspect of one religion (for example Sharia Law for settling marital issues) when a standard and legitimate process (the courts) already exist. What if a Muslim woman committed adultery in the UK with a non-Muslim man? Should we allow a Sharia court to kill the woman?
There is nothing special in a grouping of people by religion -- it's about as precious as dividing the world into Linux, Mac, and Windows groupings.

Terry, Montreal, Quebec

An excellent article. You have thoroughly exposed Muslim Council of Britain.

You mention: "mere 6 per cent of Muslims believe that the MCB represents them." Then why care for this liability called MCB! Such retrograde seventh century organizations such as MCBs want everything examined from Muslim angle.

If you want to de-link religion and a citizen, it is time to put negative and liabilities such as MCBs into deep freezer or dump them into the nearest sea!

A religion has to be a purely a private affair and we better keep it inside our homes! Extending religion into too many spheres is going to bring troubles and make clash of civilizations a reality!
Regards,

Krishna R. Kumar, Udupi, India

Nilesh Lad, London, UK

Nice one, Nilesh! You remnd me of a good friend from Malaysia. He has no real religion: he's more interested to learn the truth about Life, The Universe and Everything by way of philosophty and science.

Its good to see so many people standing up against religious supremacists. Here's why:

I was forced to declare bankruptcy when Jemaah Islamiyah bombed Bali again in October 2005. Its a real shame : The project I was funding was to help Bali recover from the first bombing in 2002 and now that won't happen. But then my story typifies the stunning contrast between our cultures : I was trying to help the lives of those who tried to kill me. Unless you want this to happen to you please take a stand and keep Britain secular. The price of freedom is vigilance.

And that's the way the cookie crumbles! (as Bruce Nolan would put it)

PS I know where Abu Bakar Bashir lives. Allahu Akbar!

Factgasm, UK,

Muslims who chose to come to the West did not want a hard line Islamic lifestyle, or they would have remained in Saudi, Turkey, Pakistan etc under Islamic law and custom. To allow hard line clerics and MCB type groupings to 'speak for' Muslims therefore betrays Muslims who wish to be normal western citizens but are given as fodder into the hands of the hard liners who commandeer them and make use of them.
Labour has fallen for this hook line and sinker and has allowed Muslims and especially their children to be subjected to hard line Imams - not screened on entry because of hard liners in the Home Office. They set up Islamic schools to cement apartheid from western values and people.
Muslims should tell these MCB activists that they do not speak for them at all, that they can go to Islamic societies if they wish, but do not so wish. Free Muslims from these self appointed spokesmen and organisations.

Aya, Haggerston, UK

' " If people in the Muslim community feel that intergrating into mainstream British society is not for them, if they want to live by Muslim ideology, then the ultimate answer is to leave Britain." -- Nilesh Lad, London, UK

BNP only looks at the colour of your skin. IF they (bnp) flame racist hindu bashing riots, who are going to help you when all the Muslims have left UK ?

Pakistani boy, Bradford, UK '

Criticising someone who has made every effort to integrate is about as counter-productive for you as it gets.

Gadaafi Duck., UK,

"BNP only looks at the colour of your skin. IF they (bnp) flame racist hindu bashing riots, who are going to help you when all the Muslims have left UK ?

Pakistani boy, Bradford, UK"

No-one has suggested the idea of ridding islamic extremism by using BNP extremism, except you.

Gadaafi Duck., UK,

" If people in the Muslim community feel that intergrating into mainstream British society is not for them, if they want to live by Muslim ideology, then the ultimate answer is to leave Britain." -- Nilesh Lad, London, UK

BNP only looks at the colour of your skin. IF they (bnp) flame racist hindu bashing riots, who are going to help you when all the Muslims have left UK ?

Pakistani boy, Bradford, UK

Mr. Godson asks the right question but leaves the inconvenient aspects of the story. I also wonder sometimes why British media has to highlight a criminal's religious affiliations when that criminal happens to carry a Muslim namesake. Why Islam has to be in the dock every time for wrong doings of a few individuals. In my opinion it is the daily dose of Islam-bashing in the main stream British media which is radicalising some and causing distrust about Musims in wider population. Mr. Godson unfortunately is playing a part in maintaining that mistrust.

Nadeem Jilani, Manchester, Lancashire

The people who best represent the citizens of the United Kingdom are our Members of Parliament.

Nobody else.

Paul Carlin, Dromore, Northern Ireland

Muslim in the UK have to decide, Are the British? If the answer is yes, then they have to stand by the British public and be counted. They have to be vocal and condemn all acts of violence regardless of the cause and the reasons. There is no justification for violence.


As for the police and the media, they have to give some credit to the Muslim community and stop treating them as second class citizens. I have been stopped so many times for no reasons because I look like an Arab. As for the Media, especially the tabloid newspapers need to be more accurate when covering stories relating to the Muslim community and Muslim living in the UK. So many times they printed stories where facts being replaced by fiction.

Fagr, Burgess Hill, UK

We have allowed people into this country who have no intention of living as Britons. They use us as a comfortable means by which to achieve their own alien ends. In the meantime, the UK supplies them with unearned benefits on a scale unimaginable anywhere else in the world.
I can hear them laughing at us as I write.

howard, london,

It is a perfectly valid question ‘why do we need the Association of Muslim Police’?

For the same reasons we need all the other 20 plus police Staff Support Associations within the Metropolitan Police including the Police Federation, Superintendents Association, ACPO, Catholic, Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu, Gay, Women etc Police Associations. These associations exist to further the aims of the organisation in recruitment and retention of officers and staff, advising the organisation on issues affecting their members as well and the community at large and providing moral support to its members.

In a perfect world we would have no need for such organisations as we would all have full knowledge of each others faiths, cultures and needs, we would be able to afford each other the due respect. Till we reach that state I suggest we stick with these associations who are working hard to protect our fellow citizens on a daily basis and making a huge contribution to community cohesion.

Fiaz Choudhary, London, UK

Blair set the tone for this with his constant pandering to religious institutions (of many persuasions) and his enthusiasm for faith schools - the latter being the single most counter-productive element of the multicultural project. If Gordon "Son of the Manse" Brown wants to leave a meaningful legacy he will act now to marginalise religion in all its guises. This is a secular society (the best guarantee, incidentally, of one's freedom to worship) - our leaders should treat us all as religiously neutral. Over a generation or two, that might eradicate the reactionary situation whereby certain sections of society define themselves primarily in terms of faith and claim exceptional treatment on that basis.

TJ Hughes, London,

It is fatuous to regard Islam as a matter of mere theology - as if its adherents were comparable to Methodists, and their religious beliefs nothing to do with their cultural or national identities. Islam is clearly an all-embracing cultural, political and quasi-national identity which supercedes any meaningful loyalty to the country they happen to live in. Most Muslims may not agree with terrorism and agree to subscribe to the laws of the land - but that's as far as their integration goes. They cleave not only to their religion but to their languages, alien names, dress and culture - in short, to all the defining characteristics of a seperate national identity. But belonging to this country (true 'Britishness') is more demanding of its citizens than mere acceptance of Mr Brown's vague 'values'. To belong here means to be rooted in the history, culture and shared experiences of these islands. It does not mean looking overseas for either loyalty or identity.

david lovibond, devizes, england

Oh simply because to call it racism is not PC ,so we tar people by religion now..... well Muslims at any rate..it is the new "apartheid"

M McGregor, Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Following up on post by JohnB

I wonder what would be reaction of government if one would like to set up a White Police Association or Men Police Association? (Yes, I happened to be born both)

What about Last-Name-Starting-from-Letter-"G"-Police Association (LNSfLGPA) ?

Michal, London, UK

SPOT ON. finally someone with some sense. as an arab muslim woman I am personally tired of other muslims with ugly beards, random people i meet in taxis, trains etc..mainly from rural pakistan, where most of the MCB come from, constantly bloody lecturing me on how i do this or why i dress this way because i'm their muslim sister!!!!!!!! last time i checked i had only two brothers. I and 200 million of us arabs have nothing in common with pakistan or malaysia or indonesia. we don't speak the same language, eat the same food, dress the same way, share the same music or even a history, have the same weddings and so on. I don't see people grouping the philipinos and brazilians in the same category because they're all catholic!!!!!! putting us all in one basket from a western point of view gives more amunition to the maniacs running around the islamic world dreaming of an islamic umma and utopia that only even exited in textbooks and their own distorted minds.

khadija, Cairo,

• The Sufi Muslim Council is a joke, Haris Rafiq thinks he represents Muslims. Sufism is a very small sect within Islam. Less than 0.5% (if that) of the Muslims in the UK are Sufis, so the MCB with its 6% representation (according to your articles) is 1000% more representative of Muslims in the UK.
• The reason the Sufi Muslim Council is the "preferred" partner for the government is due to some very poor advice given to ministers at the Department of Communities and Local Government, by some senior civil servants.
• The key here is that the government should not put all its "eggs in one basket" and should rely on a number of partners to because no one group can provide it with all the advice.
• You forget that that the majority of Muslims who came here were invited, their children were born here. Its easy to say if they don't like it they should leave. However they have no place to go , we should all work towards integration. How many of you have Muslims friends ?

LSC, London, UK

• You are correct the MCB does not represent all Muslims, as the Church of England does not represent all Christians, nor does the Board of Deputies represent all Jews, or the Hindu Council or Hindu Forum represent all Hindus, do I need to go on?

• This is a secular country, there are over 15,000 demoninations of Christianity worldwide, may 10,000 in the UK. Do you seriously believe that the MCB can represent all Muslims? Indeed it would be strange if they did, even if they represented the views of 50% of Muslims or 25% it would probably be too high. I think you need to have a reality check if you expect them to represent a high proportion of Muslims.

LSC, London, UK

Which came first: the foreign policy or the radical ideology? I think the two are intertwined. If there was no Iraq war, the radicals would not find a justification for attacking innocent Britons. But if there was no radical ideology beforehand, after the killing of many thousands of innocent people around the world through a very unethical foreign policy, the radicals would soon invent an ideology to allow them to seek revenge.

I agree that the MCB has been concentrating too much on criticising foreign policy in the past but it has not ignored the rise of this ugly ideology. In fact as an umbrella for many mainstream groups, the MCB has led the fight against it on religious/theological grounds and provided a platform for ordinary Muslims to unite against terrorism

Your radical approach of effectively ignoring groups like the MCB would be wrong. As a community, we still take our religion serously - sorry if that offends people - representing us as Muslims is perfectly appropriate

Bashir, Surrey, UK

Mohammed, London. Who are you trying to kid? The only reason Islam is growing at such a rate is because Muslims are having more children. Saying reading the Koran is converting more people to Islam is like saying reading Harry Potter is turning people into wizards. Both great works of fiction but not really applicable in this modern era. It is time to stand up to all religions. Why should I have to respect these peoples point of view that there is a man on a cloud when they don't respect my right not to be a muslim ( or christian or scientologist ). Why do we protect religion? Why is it afforded special treatment? Religious bigots should be open to criticism. I should be able to mock Allah and Yahweh without fear of being killed. This unfortunately won't happen which is why humanity faces a very bleak future. Those who put their god against another god will drag the more rational down with them.

Ed, London,

I am muslim & i can assure you that many people do not distinguish between what is Islam & what is scholastic thought. Most muslims today confuse both, that is why i see so many that write islam says this & islam demands that when it doesn't say anything about them, rather a scholar who did a few centuries ago.
Many British msulims should actually read about history of early muslims away from the sweetened sermons that actually omit many shocking facts, british muslims can integrate into their society without their excessive demands. If they associate Islam with Arabism, then they should relocate to Arabian countries where they can truly exercise religion.

s.ahmed, Cairo, Egypt

Dean; of the 60 million Brits, 6 million live in homes where no-one works ,as everyone is on the dole. The breakdown of muslim Pakistanis to hindu Indians show that whereas only 6 Indians are unemployed ,22 Pakistanis are on the dole.
Question , is there something about islamic education-or lack of it- that makes Muslims less employable.?
Continue the comparison between the Empire's jewel -India- partioned between hindu India and islamic Pakistan & Bangladesh. Which economy is thriving ? Which two falter ?
Again ,something holds the Muslims back economically . Could it be the heavy -handed religious teaching to the exclusion of sellable skills, together with the second class stautus of 50% of their populations- women ?
Islamic education appears to be a recipe for continued 3rd world status until it undergoes a much needed reformation.
When all Muslims enjoy a better standard of living , the world will be a happier & safer place. Start with a secular education.

wilfred knight, orange county, usa/california

Whichever way you slice it, the Foreign Policy of any country which acts in any foreign land will influence people. One injustice (perceived or real) certainly does not justify another injustice. When our government stops playing political games we might finally have the opportunity to address the issues, bringing communities together instead of separating them.

Farrukh, Woking,

I believe all the terrorists involved in terrorism in this country since 9/11 have been Muslims and have justified their atrocities in the name of Islam.So what is wrong with referring to 'Muslim' or 'Islamic' terrorism as distinct from say IRA or Loyalist terrorism.

Joe Dignan, Warrington, England

In response to Mr Taylor from USA: I do not know how much knowledge Mr Taylor has of History. Let me give you an example about what you have said above.

If Islam sanction to kill non-muslim/s, there would not have live a single Jewish person today, as Muslims overtook all the areas where Jews were living in Prphet Mohammad's time. The Prphet Mohammed did not order to kill the Jews because they were Jews, but European Christian Adolf Hitlor did.

There is no bigger authority on Islam than the Prophet Mohammad, regardless whichever interpretation of Islam one follows.

Tahir Shan, London, United Kingdom

Spot on.

Dan Mason, UK,

The trouble with the two previous opinions is that islam, like Judaism and Christianity, is a religion that calls on believers to act in the public space.

To believers, none of these religions can be wholly private matters.

Having said which, the establishment has certainly erred in recent years in emphasising the religious affiliations of minority communities.

Ian Morrison, Auckland, New Zealand

Mention was made of the Muslim police Association. There is also, the Black Police Association It is sad that the members of these associations gfeel that they cannot be fairly represented by the national Police Federation. The Police Federation do not discriminate in any way against colour, sex or religion and it is an affront to their integrity, that the Home Office has approved these other associations. Next up will be associations for women, catholics, protestants, hindus, seiks,jews,aithiests, tall people, short people!!. The list could b e never ending. The goverment and ACPO should stand up and ban these stupid associations, which have no place within the police service. The Police Federation is there for all members of the service below the rank of Superintendent and no other representaion should be needed, as they already do a excellent job.

JohnB, Malaga, Spain

The reason for the steady rise and also the growing numbers of people who are turning to Islam, a phenomenon that has gained momentum, especially after the WTC attacks. This attack, deplored by everyone, especially Muslims, has suddenly turned people's attention (especially Americans) to Islam. People in the West are talking a lot about what kind of a religion Islam is, what the Quran says, what obligations come with being a Muslim, and how Muslims are required to conduct their affairs. This interest has naturally brought about a rise in the number of people worldwide turning to Islam. So, the commonly heard prediction after 9/11 that 'this attack will change the course of world history' has, in a sense, started to come true. The process of returning to religious and spiritual values has become a turning to Islam. Because it's reported in Media, news reports, articles, blogs, tv progs..The most popular books in libraries are those about Islam and Islamic history. Islam is here to stay.

Mohammed, London, UK

Last paragraph: hear, hear

Farook Khan, The Hague, Netherlands

Strange question. You know the answer: Muslims consider their religion a way of life, and as we currently live in an era where liberals dominate all spheres of influence, their sensitivies must be heeded.

Perhaps what you really want to say is this: We live in a democracy; the people of this country have not had a say on mass immigration; there is no population in the world that would vote 'yes' in a referendum for such an immigration policy; these people are damn lucky to be here at all as their presence is undemocratic and invidious to a majority; therefore they should be humble, not arrogant: grateful, not complaining: loyal, not trecherous: most of all they should shut up and put their heads down.

Well, as much as I agree with this, I do think the cause of the problem lies with the liberals who have mislead these people by encouraging them to be outspoken, demonstrative and demanding of rights - a nice fantasy that may work for hobits; but for humans? Deadly .

Lawrence, Manchester , England

Muslims are muslims because they follow the Quran which they believe to be the word on an all knowing entity called Allah inspite of verses like 'sun goes to rest in a muddy cave at night!' or clouds can talk, or man is made from a clot of blood when in fact there is no dna there or that bones form before flesh in the embryo when in fact the opposite is true.
Only when Muslims stop believing the Quran and start believing science will they give up on the terrible verses like 8.39 wage war till Islam rules the planet
4.34 women are inferior and to be whipped if they speak up!
and others which are causing so many problems on our spaceship Mother Earth.

arun, London,

This is an excellent article. It is important that the modareate muslim should more vocal against terrorism.

sujit sen, essex, uk

Rev Wieteska: I see you share the arrogance of Islamists that a solution to saving souls and social cohesion is a conversion of all to your version of the 'truth'.

What is the difference between a Sharia law and your outdated Christian laws? Your holy book shows just as many outdated morals and punishments which many of us find just as distasteful and corrupt as the Koran's.

Obeying God's rules brings no violence? It is the evangelical aims of all religions that brings about friction, aggravation and grievances. Their moral claims and subsequent actions breeds intolerance.

David, London, UK

Dean Godson is quite right in challenging the need for a separate
Association of Muslim Police as it questions the cohesion and co-operation within the law enforcement body we should most trust. However, we should then also question the existence of other other police associations/guilds based on religion, sexual orientation or race, to note: Jewish Police Association, Christian Police Association, Catholic Police Guild, Gay Police Association and the National Black Police Association. The existence of these self-interest groups within the police force can not be but devisive and does nothing to foster the enforcement of equal treatment under the law.

Jan Bors, London, UK

Mr Godson is good in saying a lot about MCB but he is not aware of the fact that a very large majority of British Muslims, including myself don't give a damn to these so-called community leaders. They are all as corrupt, useless and selfish as anybody else. As far as 'Muslims viz a viz the rest' is concerned, Britain, as far as I know remember is a Secular state meaning no state religion meaning everybody is free to follow his/her own belief and as for the Muslim organisations, it is the right of Muslims as is the right of Jews, Hindus, Homosexuals and any other group of individuals in a free and democratic country. And about the foreign policy, what on earth does Mr Godson and others who believe the same as him is the reason for all these terror episodes ? You don't have to be a genius to understand that the illigal, inhuman invasion of Iraq has increased the terror threat manyfolds. At first it was only the Americans which Muslims were seeing as Crusaders but thanx to Blair, now Britain is also seen as the same. Unfortunately.

Naveed Yousafzai, Manchester, UK

From a British perspective, to ensure credibility as a body representative of Muslims in Britain any such group must show at the least that it will participate formally in events marking national Holocaust Memorial Day.

S.W. Massil, London,

Desmond,
you are right, i look in wikipedia...

Except for one thing.... It clearly says:

The Pact of Umar is a fundamental document in prescribing the condition of tolerated "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) living within Muslim-controlled states.

Now... read the last 4 words again....slowly if you wish...

I wasnt aware that the UK and USA were Muslim-controlled states.
michael, I'm with you all the way...
Live and let live... not kill or be killed
I am married to orthadox christian, sister to a Muslim

Angi, south england, uk

Islam is incompatible with western liberal democracy, if they are not happy with this they should leave.

David Fleming, Cork, Ireland

The Muslim leaders should be told in no uncertain terms the rules and regulations of Britain,if they don't agree with them ,then
they should immigrate to another Country.
People are getting fed up with appeasement.With different rules and regulations applying to different sectors of society.

Alan Walton, Leicester, England

Islam should be given the same recognition and importance in this country as christians, buddhists, jews, sikhs, taoists, athiests, agnostics etc are given in islamic countries....
ie: none!

arthur, brighton, england

Essentially, intergration is fundemental to a cohesive and prosperous society. Muslims cannot expect to impose islamic principles on british society and schools in particular - the effect of adopting what the MCB proposed in schools will at a minimum further divide british society and clearly shows how far the MCB is from the accpetable middle ground.

Certian sections of muslim society in britian must accept that they cannot in all reasonableness expect the society the live in to conform to their ideals - as Gordon Brown said the other week, we all must have acceptance for mutlicultural britain but to do that muslims need to engage, move forward and prospour in an intergarted UK.

WIth regard to MCB its not about the rethoric its about ones actions - to give the MCB a voice at this time rings real alarm bells

Bal Jaj, Hampshire, England

I suggest we set up a 'non muslim parliament of islam' with the intent of westernising the islamic world.

deepthinker, Bradford, United Kingdom of Islam

Do we have to treat Muslims as Muslims? the answer in short, no, this is England & we have our own culture & beliefs, if anyone should be respecting someones way of life, it should be them respecting ours!!

Scott Clayton, surrey,

A good article that tells a few home truths.
i would go further and ask why do we treat Muslims as a kind of protected species, as long as we maintain this attitude the more difficult it is for Muslims to feel part of British society.

Mike, Bolton, uk

Great article Mr Godson. It's taken long enough but I'm glad to see that we're finally getting a trickle of articles like this in the UK.

JD, Birmingham, UK

The problem for Britain is not would be Islamist dictatorship - it is actual liberal dictatorship! The democratic majority must overthrow our present liberal minority dictatorship and replace this with the rule of the democratic majority. Action this day!

Terry , London, Great Britain

Great artcile. I agree with your sentiment regarding the MCB's denouncement of attacks on "innocents" - it is been shown often enough that radical preachers say that all non-believers are not innocent and hence represent legitimate targets. The MCB needs to take a stand against all attacks.

Peter, London,

"Britishness - and democracy itself - is based on the Judaeo/Christian world view. It was the Apostle Peter who first, in conflict with the Sanhedrin, enunciated this principle when he declared, "We ought to obey God rather than man" (Acts 5:29). Happily, when the Christian God is truly obeyed, on Bible principles, there is never violence involved. To be British is not primarily about cricket or aftenoon teea or warm beer - nice as all these things are: le's dace it once and for all: to be British is to inherit the almost 2000 years of what Christianity, with all its ups and downs, has made us. I was born in Britain in 1945: there were few Muslims and few problems of social cohesian. Christians should get about converting the Muslims, and, apart from saving souls social cohesian will be a happy spin-off. All else is wishful thinking.

Rev. Dr. Michael Wieteska, Geneva, Switzerland

Why has the religion left the private place and reached the bazaar. Why there is more talk of religion but little religion in life. It is time that men and women of all persuasions think and think hard as to where are we headed.
One of the major problem with the Muslims seems to be the pull and pressures exerted by the clerics while interpreting Islam. We live in the 21st Century but still we want to believe that for so many things as if it is 17th or 18th Century.
Violence should not have any room in any religion and that is what needs to be made clear in no uncertain terms by the community leaders.
Loyalty to religion should be a personal affair and loyalty to the nation / country where one resides should be a public affair. There cannot be brotherhood at the cost of the country, this is what needs to be understood by Muslims. Be it India, US or UK, each citizen has to be first loyal to his country. National sentiments should be respected by one and all.

shivkumar israni, mumbai, india

It's muslims who consider themselves muslims first and foremost. They talk about the "Muslim World". Why else would suicide bombers from Somalia, Pakistan attack London on the premise of the war in Iraq? What has it got to do with them? Oh, it's because they are all muslims and religion comes before nation. Come on, Dean Godson, get a grip!

get the blinkers off, london,

How about extending this idea a little further? Stop treating different races as "others". Stop labelling people who happen to be, for example, Jewish as Jews or gays as gay.

Maybe what we need is to be far more subjective. Ask yourself "Who is this person in front of me now? Are they interesting and intelligent, or dull and stupid? Are they honest and kind or spiteful thieves?"

Use judgement and instincts, but base those on what is actually known about the personality of each individual, rather than race (which is about as important to me as the amount of sunscreen they use) religion (as vital as where they disappear to for a couple hours every week) or sexual preference (as important as whether they prefer brunnettes over blondes or not).

If such things are important to the individual, then I can decide whether their views make them interesting or pedantic, and associate with them as I choose. Other than that I really don't care. A very simple way to live life.

Joe, London, UK

Sir,
It is rather embarrassing to witness how readily many in the post-Blairite UK have succumbed to Hollywood-hysteria of the 51st State. We have had an empire / commonwealth for the last few hundred years with all the complexities of multicultural relations. I for one think that compared to most nations, we have done admirably well. I do not think that we should hastily adopt a continental model, just because of some hiccups with integration, as opposed to assimilation, process. The Canute-like anti-globalisation continental model is either an impractical French philosophy, or a totalitarian "Ein volk ein reich ein fuhrer" anti-cosmopolitanism requiring force. They ignore ethnic and cultural realities, blindly hoping ipso facto that all differences will magically disappear. The UK organically evolved from many cultures over the centuries, and it works. Our history of respecting the individual "every man's home his castle" is a workable pragmatic method. 50 years is a short period

SC, London, United Kingdom

And about time too! Well said, Mr. Godson, it is high time we stopped this process of "Islamicisation", and instead reminded everyone that they are part of a secular, democratic Western society. If they do not wish to be integrated or otherwise take a part in this society, then they are free to choose somewhere else more in keeping with their views.

Adrian Ryan, Donegal, Ireland

Desmond Taylor's suggestions about "any muslim" are hateful and untrue. The pact of Umar was (if it ever really existed) an agreement for religious tolerance within muslim controlled territory.

The muslims that I know personally do not feel they have a right to kill me on sight. I wonder if redneck Des has any friends who are not WASPs?

A Clarke, London,

Sorry to be pedantic, but te word "kosher" doesn't sit well in this context. "Halal" would be better. (And yes, most people in this country are aware of what it means)

Adna, London,

Yep, that is what you get when you give credence to religion.

Martin Hughes, Oxford, UK

Maybe because Muslims regard themselves as Muslims before anything else. Why we pander to this minority in this way is a mystery. In muslim countries do they have a christian council, a christian Parliament or any other of the myriad self-appointed Muslim groups we hear from day to day? They have the freedom to practice their religion,something a large number of Muslim countries deny to others and if that isn't enough for them they have the fredom to re-locate to somewhere more in line with their wishes.

Dave Proctor, Leeds,

The reason muslims are treated with kids gloves is that they threaten to bomb, behead or sue us if we don't bow to their unceasing demands.

Islam presents the government with daily opportunities to show courage but it never it seems to rise to the occasion.

Christopher Hyde, Paris, France

Turning a religious belief into a way of life may suit some but such belief is a private matter between the individual and their
choice of object to be worshipped. To ask the overwhelming majority of citizens to change their behaviour to suit one particular belief, is unacceptable.

Keep it private and earn respect.

michael john murphy, brightlingsea, england

There is a whole wide question about "engagement with community leaders" that talks only to elderly men.

Harry, New Malden,

Britishness should be observed by all BRITS, that includes Muslims, the general public are sick to death of hearing about Muslims ,their rights & needs.
They live in the British isles, they are the ones who should be doing the integrating, if they want laws for themselves & to live by Sharia, they should not be living in a non Muslim country.
Islam teaches them quite clearly , sinners are non believers in Allah, no matter how the government want to read the utterances of the MCB this is a fact.
Nothing Gordon Brown can do or say will change something that has been held as perfection [ in the mind of a Muslim ] for 1,400 years.
Only when the British government is strong & stands up for the secular & indiginous British will others see this is not a country who panders to those who want faith to interfer with government.
Muslims must comply with us, not the other way around !

Maggie Millington, Brittany, France

"In other words, why does the Government still deem their religious affiliation the most important thing about them"?

Perhaps because Muslims continually reinforce the fact that they are Muslims first & foremost?

The rest of us would be wise to recognize this.

Eric, Ottawa, Canada

As an individual who was born and grew up in Bradford, West Yorkshire (I have Hindu, Indian roots but 'am not religous in the slightest) I truely believe that this push by certain groups in the Muslim communities to segregate British society will be counter-productive and, in the end, wholly destructive to our world. Isolation is not the answer. I am from what is deemed a minority community, however, I seem to have successfully integrated into mainstream society. I took advantage of the educational options available to me and don't feel opressed, isolated and without any identity. Yet, the majority of the muslim population of Bradford (certainly the ones I went to school with) seem to feel wronged. Why? Why is everybody else able to get on and better with their lives? If people in the Muslim community feel that intergrating into mainstream British society is not for them, if they want to live by Muslim ideology, then the ultimate answer is to leave Britain.

Nilesh Lad, London, UK

"why does the Government still deem their religious affiliation the most important thing about them in the public space?"

Because the British Government treats the public like Colonial Subjects and tries to find a local nabob who can deliver the vote in return for lucre and titles. It is the way our government works, playing off one group against another.

We have government by limited intellect and shallow representation having a very narrow mandate. This is the politics of Pakistan with favours and familial affiliations as seen in Blackburn.

It will lead inevitably to the politics of Lebanon as the majority population becomes aggressively angered. It is a surprise that the minority produces bombers in view of the irritation amid the majority population which senses political contempt from men like Straw for their concerns.

TomTom, Leeds, UK

I cannot understand why western countries pander to muslims who emmigrated to their country. Maybe because there so many of them? In my view if you emmigrate to a country you have to adapt to their ways, which doesn't mean you have to change your religion. But it seems to me that muslims want everyone to chang to their ways. Also they are against muslims adapting to the ways of their new country. I call that ''chuzpe''.

Renate Baramy, Ramat Hasharon, Israel

"A truly radical approach would be to...."

Hardly radical , simply common sense. Why does government grovel to unelected religious bodies and empower them by such simpering contact?

Incidentally children are not born Muslim any more than they are Christian or satanists. They are children born of Muslim / Christian / Satanist parents.

Isn't it time they had the human right not to be assimilated into their parents belief system and all children were treated exactly the same in school without reference to the myths and fantasies of their parents?

Time Mr Brown changed governments whole approach to medieval thinkers , especially in schools.

Rob Green, Braintree, England

When I was young there was a saying :


" WHEN IN ROME ETC ETC"

It is not up to me to tell people how to live but immigrants and visitors should have some respect for the system and country that has given them nurture .

Bernard Parke, Guildford,

The first thing to understand about any Muslim, is their belief that if one is not a Muslim you are a dhimmi. The Pact of Umar, makes this absolutely clear. It even prescribes what the mode of conduct is for the dhimmi. A dhimmi is what you and I are. Islam is a Totalitarian Religious State. As Islam is the word of God, to go against Islam is blasphemy and the perpetrator is apostate, and may be killed on sight. If you do not believe me look up dhimmi and Pact of Umar. It will open your eyes.

Desmond Taylor, Houston, USA Tx

Last paragraph: hear, hear.

Terry Dell, Weybridge, UK

Exactly. People are people in the UK. England overcame tribal divisions a millennium ago. Labour's incessant emphasis on the differences of 'communities' is retribalising England with spectacular success. Godson is right, Muslilms - who have very disparate views and lifestyles - must not be treated as if one solid body. Indeed this policy surrenders secular Muslims to the hard liners who then 'claim' them as theirs.
No more faith schools, for any religion, is a logical corollary.

Jake, Oxford, UK

Bit silly, Dean. Islam is a tad specific about its place in the lives of believers. They are not all really "libertarian individualists", you know, just busting to get out and do some serious anarcho-capitalism. Islam is a total belief system - that's why, for example, its believers must pray five times every day.

If Moslems cannot be understood in "the public space" primarily as Moslems, they cannot be understood at all.

Sorry, but your effort to find an assimilationist foundation is wasted. Try figuring out what the ethnic rights and interests of the English are instead. If more people like you manage that there might be some hope for you ... and us.

Guessedworker, Lewes, Sussex

Dean : flip-flop your argument. Ask the same questions of a Christian Council In Saudi Arabia. Would Christians get the same respect and Straw-Denham appeasement ? Are Christian women allowed to dress as they please in Riyadh & on Saudi beaches ? Can Christians set up special Christian schools and churches with loud-speakers blaring to faithful Christians in this muslim land ? Is special pleading allowed because some westerner is a Christian in Saudi ? Dean, you know .-. There is NO reciprocity. Why not? Why does Britain hold itself to a different religious standard that is not reciprocated in muslim countries ? Britain is secular. It should NOT cater to the loudmouths from the Muslim Council of Britain. If they don't like it in the UK offer them a one-way ticket to Saudi. Dean -your question-a good one- who speaks for Muslims? They have no muslim Pope or Archbishop of the Church of England to set policy. Henry VIII reformed monasteries- MOSQUE REFORM IS LONG OVERDUE.

wilfred knight, orange county, usa/california