Portillo refers to the locking up of 'some very dangerous men'. He has presumably seen the proof of their guilt. Why does he omit mention of the many hundreds more held in prisons abroad as part of the programme of rendition. The Nazis were condemned for the use of concentration camps and the US cannot escape the blame for doing the same.

John Spencer, Cantebury, UK

Portillo is quite wrong in his assertion that the IRA were "thwarted" by the British Army. The IRA had to throw in the towel when their main Irish-American source of funds dried up after 9/11, the day that terrorism arrived for the 1st time in the US. Sinn Fein, the IRA and the IRA's predecessor the IRB could not have functioned without Irish-American backing. Remember Gerry Adams' trips to US? And those of Eamon de Valera during the Troubles which gave birth to the Irish Free State?

pat dawson, Fochdale, UK

British forces should not be leaving Iraq until the job is finished. The world knows that the small force that Britain committed to the nasty job in Iraq was insufficient and, were removed only because of the lack of will of politicians to see the job finished. Your initial response was inadequate, and your premature departure, despicable. At no other time in history has there been as great a chance to see a democracy flurish in the mid east. I hope we (USA) can see this task to a successful completion.

Don , Isabella Co., Michigan, USA

Fair point Dan in Hampton. Portillo once embarrassed himself and his party at the Tory conference by blathering about the SAS. He hasn't learned much since then. The British Army has lost in Iraq and should withdraw as soon as they can. They have done no good more good to anybody than their gallant navy comrades, the heroes of Shatt al Arab.

Stan, London, England

The only workable solution to this problem is for the Americans to acknowledge the international legal authority of the UN - and to acknowledge it with the same realism that they previously acknowledged the necessity of bringing the separate states of America together to form the USA.

It was an outrage beyond words for George Bush and Tony Blair to tear up the UN Charter and invade Iraq without a mandate. However, now that they have done so, they must take responsibility for the mess they have made and see the job through, with the help of the UN, to peace and democracy in Iraq - however long it takes.

Edmund Burke, Kingston upon Thames, England

British forces should not be leaving Iraq until the job is finished. The world knows that the small force that Britain committed to the nasty job in Iraq was insufficient and, were removed only because of the lack of will of politicians to see the job finished. Your initial response was inadequate, and your premature departure, despicable. At no other time in history has there been as great a chance to see a democracy flurish in the mid east. I hope we (USA) can see this task to a successful completion.

Don Fuller, Isabella Co., Michigan, USA

Tony the poodle took our armed forces into Iraq based on outrageous lies from the Bush administration and I doubt a Tory PM would have done any different. Several years later, Saddam is dead and so are his sons. All three were murderers, but they were murderers who knew how to control Iraq - a most unhappy truth.

Now we have Iraqis murdering Iraqis daily. We have religious hatred, secular hatred and tribal hatreds while the Mullahs over the border in Iran can't believe their luck

Fact is the only people who can bring lasting Democracy to Iraq are the Iraqis themselves, anything else is wishful thinking. The fact is that they don't want it - yet.

Dan, Hampton, UK

I work in Iraq right now have done now for 3 years serving 14 years in the British Army.
Most people commenting here are doing so from your armchairs and comfort of your own home. Some of you have never been outside Tenerife.. and if you have travelled its with some youth expedition or on safari., but some reason you have strong opinions about how Iraq should be, the comments in the article "Britains defeat?" what defeat? the soldiers are here in a policing role in a lawless country,if they had not stayed it would be the biggest training ground for Terrorism you would have ever seen. Part of me thinks we should have just left them to it once the rival arabs killed each other they may have excepted our help,or we could have let Iran in to do the work take your pick? its sad to say, but these people do need a Very ruthless figurehead to keep control of them ... sorry all you university statistical readers , but until your in in you won't see it.

lee h , leeds, uk

Iraq is the pilot programme for the insurgency, if defeated this will be used as fuel all over the Arab world. It can be seen already in the adoption of their tacticts by the Taleban in Afghanistan and more recently by groups in Algeria

This does not mean i support our troops to remain but for crying out loud, stop the defense cuts and budget reviews and damn red tape and invest in our most prized and respected asset, the military. Send them to do a job with the right equipment, protective housing and tools. Not tents, insufficient aircraft, armoured vehicles and weapons.

Gavin, Gibraltar, Gibraltar

So, what can we learn from this Mr Portillo ? How about this :-

a). British MPs are prepared to vote - in the house of commons (including yourself Mr Portillo, and Mr Brown, and...) - to send our troops to war and effectively abandon them.

b). Apply enough pressure and the British do "cut and run".

c). The troops can expect no support from the media (BBC) or the man on the street.

d). And, absurdly, that it's *all* Tony Blairs fault.


To Phillip Bussey, Annapolis, MD

I'm with you. You can't go to war half heartedly.


To Andrew Turvey, Nottingham, England.

Unbelievable. I'm speechless !!

RJA, Nottingham, England, UK.

Perhaps the departing troops can leave their sand coloured flak jackets behind until that point is reached when the headcount reaches the flak jacket count. I have heard from a parent whose son was deployed a few days ago that he was not issued with his full kit.

Michael, were our boys similarly under-equipped in your day?

Nigel Wroe, Doncaster, Yorkshire

If I may be so brave as to tend an opinion upon your comment about our misery brought about in Iraq. The fight was Political for whatever and whoever wanted to wage it, however like all war waged by a civilised and honourable military force, our men don’t and didn’t have the stomach for it, as there is and was no point in it. No one in Iraq was waging a threat against our Nation or America’s our families and our lives weren’t at risk. The metal it takes to kill and to be killed must have a higher purpose and not built on the lies proffered by American or our politicians. Our Brave troops have been betrayed but most certainly not beat. Our Politicians should hang their heads in shame for the death and destruction they have commissioned. The sooner we have a Public Enquiry and someone is incarcerated for this criminally insane affair the better. International Laws are in place to stop this type of behaviour and ignoring them should act as no defence. Have we learnt nothing.

mark, Gateshead, Tyne Wear

Your analysis of Guantanamo doesn't seem to distinguish between war and criminal justice. The 9/11 attacks, owing to their nature and destructiveness, were reasonably interpreted as an act of war carried out by enemy combatants whose shared purpose is well known. To respond to a military threat with the procedures of the criminal justice system seems rather like trying to handcuff Kamikaze pilots (many of whom acted under coercion).

America does not need the UN to assert its own sovereign authority to declare war. If it's claimed that this authority is subordinate to a treaty obligation, the obligation to abide by treaties is a principle of customary law, which in turn is dependent on the practice of sovereign states. The true basis for America's actions was an overriding moral judgement.

Kevin, London,

Now i know why the Iranian Navy chose to harass and capture the British Sailors. They saw a weak military unable to respond with any significant force, as well as a complacent U.K. civilian populace.

Reed, Phoenix, USA

I agree fully with the article above however, unfortunate though it is to admit our country, in going in to Iraq has aided in destroying the infrastructure of a country that thanks to us is not capable of now protecting its own citizens. We destroyed their police and army so now we are the only ones there to perform that duty.
Perhaps it would now be a good time to bring those who sent our fine men and women to Iraq in the first place to answer for their decision and the hundreds of thousands of dead it created. In the mean time we have no excuse for not providing our troops with all the support they need to perform the failing job our parliament sent them to do. With every body both British and Iraqi that adds to the huge death count, the price of the decision to go to Iraq in the first place grows, a decision made against the will of the British people at the time, shrouded in lies of WMD. Surely that is the real crime..

Darren, London, UK

Dear Michael,
250000 Iraqis have died in the presidencies of BUSHES, the father and the son. Infra strucure of a country has been destroyed. There are children without parents, old people without health care and medicine and food. If American adminstration is happy with that, so be it. But not in our name. We must take our sons and daugters back to our country where they belong.

nami, London,

Your article is very profound and unfortunately true. As an ex serviceman it breaks my heart to see the utter disregard for our service personnel. It was once said in poetry’

It’s Tommy this and Tommy that until the bullets fly' How so sad we have lost that part of British pride that now makes us turn our backs away from our glorious past, and now allows our populace to deride our own troops. They have never asked to be sent into the mouth of hell, we send them. They are someone’s son daughter brother uncle cousin next door neighbor defending our rights and principles. We do not deserve these wonderful young men and women; hold your head in shame Britain hold your head in shame. If we carry on the way we are doing in time we will not have young people like this we will be vulnerable and when we need them they won’t be there. For the first time in my life I am ashamed to be British.

Teddy, Adelaide, Australia

If the British leave too quickly and the Iraqi authorities cannot fill a vacuum, who will fill it?

Edward Horgan Goumas, London, UK

In war you are either the hunter or the hunted, and to leave one's troops in a position where a ragtag force can chase them out of a 4th world country speaks volumes of the level of a country's commitments to their armed forces. My guess is that the British military, if given the authorization, could make it so unpleasant to be attacked that they would be left alone if that were their desire.

Make up your mind - you are either a player on the world stage or a pawn Which shall it be for Britain?

Phillip Bussey, Annapolis, MD

Saddam Hussein, whatever his faults, was the legally elected President of Iraq. The Anglo-American invasion of that country, without a UN mandate, was entirely illegal, and without any threat to Britain or America. However, having invaded the country, destroyed the existing security system and secured the judicical assassination of Saddam, the Anglo-American forces now have the responsibility to stay and see the job through.

Edmund Burke, Kingston upon Thames, England

As soldiers, we pride ourselves on doing our job under very difficult conditions. The results of what soldiers do is often intangible and we are seen as the backstop when the police cannot enforce the rule of law. The situation in Iraq in my opinion is one doomed to civil war unless those people seeking conflict, change their approach to one of compromise and reconciliation. Something not likely to occur in the near future. The people of Iraq know who the perpetrators of violence are and if they want peace, should work with security forces to bring them to justice. Only then can Iraq move forward with Allah's blessing.

Robert, London, UK

Spot on, Mr Portillo, spot on. British politics is the poorer for your absence. Pity Mssrs Cameron and Campbell aren't as accurate in their assessments.

Andrew Turvey, Nottingham, England

Some corrections: ''They have attracted global opprobrium for locking up without trial in Guantanamo Bay some very dangerous men who might otherwise wreak mayhem in our cities along with complete innocents. Also, Americans have for years not had to watch mournfully as the star-spangled coffins returned home because the authorities have suppressed these images in the cause of spin.''

However I can't disagree with the general tone regarding the pointlessness of staying. It can only be matched by the pointlessness of going in the first place.

What have we achieved: Chaos, death on a massive scale, disintegration of society, the emergence of Al Qaeda in Iraq, an Iranian client state in the making and the distrust of so many around the world.

Mission accomplished indeed.

Martyn Millard, Calvia, Mallorca

If I may be so brave as to tend an opinion upon your comment about our misery brought about in Iraq. The fight was Political for whatever and whoever wanted to wage it, however like all war waged by a civilised and honourable military force, our men don’t and didn’t have the stomach for it, as there is and was no point in it. No one in Iraq was waging a threat against our Nation or America’s our families and our lives weren’t at risk. The metal it takes to kill and to be killed must have a higher purpose and not built on the lies proffered by American or our politicians. Our Brave troops have been betrayed but most certainly not beat.

mark, Gateshead, Tyne Wear

I served in Iraq in 2004 with the British Army and watched the situation deteriate over the six months of my tour.At the begining we were deploying into Basrah in soft skin "Wolf" landrovers but after just a coulple of months we were only alowed into the town in "Snatch" armoured rovers and by the end of my tour we needed a "Warrior" apc escort !-Many of my comrades share my feelings that Tony Blaire LIED to the British public about WMDs and took Britain into an ILLEGAL war.The escalation of Islamic terrorism within the UK is a DIRECT result of that war and our continued presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan and for Gordon Browne to deny that obvious fact is beyond belief.We need to pull our troops out of Iraq immediately before any more are killed and the British army loses all respect for our joke of a government!

Jon Lawton, London, UK

Why is there not an historical reference to British interference in Iraq? Was it napalm of poison gas that was used in the 1920's? I recall that it was gas and that Churchill praised it's use. The napalm was used in Greece in the late 1940's. Just think of how many Iraqis the Brits have killed in the past 90 years! The centralised British model has been a disaster for most ex-colonies, as that concept of democracy means that the largest tribe is in power indefinitely. This is what the Brits arranged in the North of Ireland. Perhaps the Swiss do it better Just get out of there and you may be able to afford Aricept for your NHS.

Robert Bennett, Ennis,

Mesopotamia, now Iraq, was cobbled together from three provinces of the dying Turkish empire. They didn't like each other then, any more than they do now, so preserving the inegrity of the country always needed hard - harsh - control.

Remove this and they will fight a most bloody civil war that will result in disintegration. Better to partition now - FAST, in a single month, to deny diplomats time to fudge - with the movement of peoples that is bad-mouthed as ethnic cleansing but saves lives, and withdraw immediately.

Britain did much the same in India in 1957, with more success than is sometimes admitted.

Noel Falconer, COUIZA, France

The measure of professionalism of any army has always been whether they can retreat in good order, hard, hard work compared to an advance, and no glory to be had.

But Procul Harum presciently predicted this outcome:

This war we are waging is already lost
The cause for the fighting has long been a ghost
Malice and habit have now won the day
The honours we fought for are lost in the fray

Standards and bugles are trod in the dust
Wounds have burst open, and corridors rust
Once proud and truthful, now humbled and bent
Fires which burnt brightly, now energies spent

Let down the curtain, and exit the play
The crowds have gone home and the cast sailed away
Our flowers and feathers as scarring as weapons
Our poems and letters have turned to deceptions

It might be the poodle's epitaph.

stuart munro, Daegu, Korea

Everyone I talk to has tremendous respect for our armed forces.However, Iraq is a futile war which this country will bear the scars for, in terms of young lives lost and the wounded, for decades to come. I know NO one who has ever been in agreement for this war (or any other for that matter) apart from our so called political masters who are completely out of touch with reality they must be on a different planet. Bring our boys back, and the sooner the better!!

Dave Smith, Bedford, UK

Soldiers do what politicians bid - Brown and Labour have to carry the can for involving this country in an unwinnable war and then not equipping our soldiers properly to wage it. This country has been misled by the Government and Labour must pay the price!
As for Guantanamo, the UK Government is in a pickle over the whole control order business because it implemented the crazy and unecessary Human Rights Act into UK law - the solution is obvious - repeal the HRA and deport undesirables with foreign nationality.

Richard Marriott, Kidderminster, England

How do you know that the people held at Guantanamo Bay are 'very dangerous men'? What evidence have you for saying that?

John M, Achmore, UK

The other night when I read of the plight of British soldiers in Iraq on these pages. I was looking for the words to put into perspective what they were facing. Tonight I found it written in this article. "Surrounded like cowboys and indians". Thats exactly what the situation is. Now consider what the moral of your soldiers must be knowing the "British Calvary" isn't even making an attempt to rescue them and fight the Indians off. What a tragedy to the proud, and capable British Army!! And the only plan. Withdraw to the airbase at Basra. Your soldiers will be shelled and sniped and casualities will be just as high as now if not higher as Al Quaeda choses that location to make a statement to their followers to show they're winning. I hope I'm wrong but history is on my side. Basra will become the next Den Bein Phu. If your going to run. Get out entirely. Theres no reason to lose more attempting to save...some kind of face.

Murph, Madisonville, USA/KY

Well said Mr Watts.

And who has benefitted from this illegal war. Not the American, British or Iraqi people. Haliburton and other arms and oil companies have made billions. The company that still pays Dick Cheney $1 million a year that we know about.

Tom, North, uk

As distinct from the question "Why are we there?" which we all asked when British troops were first deployed to Basra, the political question now must be "Are we making matters better or worse by our presence there?"

Until recently I believed, as did our troops who are there, that the answer was "better"; now I believe the scale has tipped the other way, and that the withdrawal of our forces must be carried out soon, and as quickly as possible. There is no possibility of affecting an orderly withdrawal if we try to do it slowly; all we will achieve, as Mr Portillo suggests, is an increase in casualties at an exponential rate..

T.W. (ex-Army), Malaga, Spain

So it seems that despite the best efforts of the British forces over the past 4 years or so we will leave Basra in a worse state than when Saddam was in power.
What will this mean for the rest of the country, where the Americans have been trying to bomb their way out of the crisis and I think it is safe to say have been far less effective than the British in the "Hearts and minds" issue.
You can conjure up various scenarios , civil war, America being sucked into long term presence in the region, escalating conflict crossing the borders but I can see little grounds for any optimism now that the can of worms has been opened.
So much has been said about this conflict , most sensible people should now realise what a ghastly mistake the whole thing has been and learn a huge lesson from that , Im talking about politicians here as the general public made their feelings known in their millions before a shot was fired.

Chris, Brisbane, Australia

Isn't it typical of a politician who has never had to do military service let alone fight in a war, who travels in armoured vehicles and is protected by bodyguards to make decisions over the life or death of our brave soldiers based on what is convenient for his political career.

Richard, Alicante, Spain

uk must leave iraq to make his disgin and to live in pease and dignety , british gov must to be more sinsitev about mothers tears , about the soldiers had been killed in iraq , USA ,takes british people to the hill,u must wuke up .

khalid kabha, barta,a, israil

The Americans invaded on trumped up and deliberately distorted 'intelligence' about the (non) existence of WOMD. Bliar followed his master. When the lies and deceit were exposed, thus cancelling the 'legality' of the invasion, the excuse became 'to restore democracy'. The result of four years of 'restoring democracy' has been hundreds of thousands of deaths, hundreds of thousands of injuries, hundreds of thousands having fled the country, the destruction of properties and businesses, no light in the tunnel of suffering, and no hope of true democracy. The Americans are building their biggest embassy anywhere in the world, and this signals their true intentions - which have nothing whatsoever to do with democracy. They have made their country the most despised, hated and mistrusted in the world, and the British have meekly allowed themselves to be dragged into the mire. What an achievement!!
As for Guantanamo, no comment regarding democracy.

Ronald E. Watts, Nicosia, Cyprus

Britain is in Iraq illegally. Period.

When will politicians, uneducated in the usages of War, fully grasp the magnitude of the blunder they have made and accept responsibility for their actions.
I look forward to the first criminal trials involving our politicians - of all parties - for War crimes in Iraq.
Withdrawal is not an option. It is an imperative.

David Michael, London, UK