At what stage do we finally realise that this disposable society needs to change, do basic fundamental human values no longer matter? The old bulldog spirit we keep spouting has been replaced with an attitude of "as long as I don't have to get involved!".

The fact that the inaction of these two happened is bad enough, but the fact that excuses are being spouted is unforgiveable. If the Assistant Chief Constable was in the same situation as the parents of Jordan Lyon, would he still be excusing the moronic attitude of his so called "Support Officers"?

Jordan Lyon died trying to save a life. Human spirit died when nobody could be bothered to try and save him.

Paul Moxon, Birmingham,

A 10-year-old and a pensioner will take risks to save a child but fit young adults refuse. This is civilisation!
The survival of society is based on "women and children first" and despite the (desirable) trends toward independence of women, the rule still holds. Jordan passed, the pensioner passed, but the people who take our money in exchange for supporting the community failed miserably in the only examination where the result cannot be faked.

KR, Stockport,

Perhaps critisism of the PCSO's should be tempered by the deaths of the Ramsbottom/Bury based fireman who drowned under almost identical circumstances trying to rescue a child 2 years ago and the four police officers who died in Blackpool about 15 years ago attempting to rescue a dog from the sea.
Entering water is extreamly hazardous and without a clear view of the victim is almost always bound to fail. While I would like to think I would have attempted a rescue I cannot condem the two PCSO's.

Andy B, Bury, UK

PCSO s are said to be trained to support the police service,how can they "support" if they are patroling without a police presence.Surely they are being used to free up police officers(highly trained and paid) so that even larger volumes of needless paper work may be processed.bring back common sense.

James Slade, Colchester, Essex

It is sad to make light of a tragedy.
Presumably James Campbell knows that the PCSOs present could swim and could render assistance.
It is comforting to know that Mr Blunkett is willing to potentially sacrifice his own life to prevent drowning in spite of the fairly secure knowledge that he would never be called upon to do so.

Mr Sandip Sarkar, Chelmsford, Essex

I agree this is a sad example of where we might be heading with our public services.
As well as stifling human instinct, we should also be wary of using training to substitute for experience in all our public services.

ken jones, Dundee,

Putting it rather more in perspective, they were not PCSO's as they stood on the bank, they were human beings under stress. I doubt very much that they stood there unfeelingly while a boy died, so lay off them. If there were no PCSO's there would have been no uniform presence at all, and the policeman who eventually jumped in would probably not have been available to turn out either.
People die, and not everyone has the courage to be a hero.

Mike Poulsen, Reading, Berkshire

human nature in any normal human person would have prevailed 'health & safety' rules that co-incided with their job role !
i take it that the 2 'wanna be' bobbies did not have children of their own ! ? if so they would have 'had a go'
there are two ways to look at this tradgedy, 1, the psco's we relied upon were not people persons with the correct training on human needs, thus failing this little boys life.

2, the people who employed them and issued their job boundaries are at fault for the restriction on human life which is what they should be protecting !
its too late when someone is dead, you cannot bring them back !!
change the red tape now before its one of the 'red tape' issuers children who are dead !!

victoria, wigan, england

I am furious about the defence by Greater Manchester Police in relation to the drowned boy in Wigan, that the PCSO's hadn't undertaken any 'Water Retrieval Training.'
As a former police officer, i can say that the only training that a police officer has in the water is undertaken in a swimming pool during the course of one morning. Of that, 'Water Retrieval' consists of about 20mins and is nothing more than a child would do when undertaking basic life saving skills at most U.K. schools. This is an absolute disgrace and an affront to the memory & respect for the boy.
Yet again, PCSO's, with their limited powers, are defended in order to save face.

David Newlin, Manchester, United Kingdom

Surely emergency services attending an emergency should be willing to undertake a slightly greater degree of risk than that involved in just standing around? If not, then don't join the emergency services!

If PCSOs aren't prepared to help in an emergency then really, what use are they? Certainly those two don't appear to me to be as useful as even just one real copper, like the one who went into the water. So spend the money on proper police instead; we'll end up with fewer personnel for the same money, but they'll want to make a difference.

Response to some posts:
-The quote was 'probably dead' - so the boy was possibly alive but drowning while they stood there.
-The fishermen who helped and saved the girl were old, but they still tried and survived.
- From the story above there clearly was an indication of where the boy likely was, probably from those fishermen.
- Could either of those PCSOs swim? No info given on that, though relevant.
- Good for you Leigh!

Derek Phibes, London, UK

I am a special constable and with or without the uniform on I would have jumped in and given that boy a chance of survival.

Leigh, wolverhampton,

The PCSOs were completely in line with the advice from ROSPA in 2007: "You should do everything possible to avoid having to enter the water because experience shows that often the would-be rescuer becomes a casualty. If you have to make a rescue attempt, think of your own safety first and never put yourself in danger."

Jordan was not a drowning child, but a drowned child when the PCSOs arrived. Expecting them to risk dying with him because 'somebody ought to do something' is unrealistic and unfair.

His mother is understandably distressed, but one might ask whether she should have allowed him to be in a situation which would require others to risk their lives to recover the body of her child. Where was she?

The emergency services have been partially replaced by PCSOs who are neither trained nor equipped to deal with this sort of situation. Perhaps journalists should patrol the streets instead, as they will always do the right thing, regardless of the risk to themselves.

Paul Haden, Dorking, Surrey

It was Jesus who said, "I give my life for my friends". In most countries of the world which do not have 400 years of Christian history, the average person will not risk his life for a stranger, unless the stranger is wealthy. If people are not Christians, why should they be expected to act in a Christian way?

Carey, Chengdu, China

This is the worst media reporting of a story I have heard in a long time. Obviously you have a problem with PCSO's and are out to crucify them.
This boy was dead long before they arrived. Even if it only took them 5 minutes to get there, he was long gone. The lake was calm there was no boy splashing about, there was no indication of where his dead body was and as such no good reason for two officers to start searching an entire lake to retrieve a body.
If you had arrived at a lake to be told there was a boy in there, with no movement or splashing, with no indiccation as to where he is, would you have jumped in ? And why did those people who raised the alarm not jump in ?

Steve, London,

The first rule of saving someone who is drowning is not to get yourself into the same position. Too often you hear the report of a person drowning to save their pet dog - they drown & the dog escapes.
We were taught to get a stick or something to throw to someone in difficulty but NEVER go in yourselves.
I can't blame the PCSO's - the mother is distraut & wants someone to blame - the problem is the papers taking her statements at face value and not asking why she a) wasn't there herself looking after the kids and b) why she didn't teach her children basic safety awareness such as not swimming in ponds.

Alison, Edinburgh, UK

This is a cheap shot at PCSOs. When you take into account that recruits do not have to be able to swim to join, and that their training is not to enter the water, and that it is just as likely to drown attempting a reckless rescue as it is to save a life - who would criticise the officers?
It is easy to say "what I would have done" from the comfort of the keyboard. The reality might be very different.
If the PCSOs had gone into the water to attempt a rescue they would have been disobeying their orders and the Force would probably be prosecuted by the Health & Safety Executive.
There is no right or wrong action in these circumstances.

Martin, Lancashire, UK

I could not agree more.

What aspect of training can be so effective as to allow two grown men, or grown people for that matter, not to reach out when a vulnerable member of society is in danger?

Perhaps it is a generational thing but the idea of women and children first was not a joke (although like most thgings we Brits made fun of ourselves in that area too) and I for one would like to think that I would put myself at risk rather than allow others to suffer as was the case with this poor child.

If the senior policman in his ridiculous braid felt impelled to support his people that is one thing, if the same bantum cock felt that he had to say what he did or risk being sued because some clever and unprincipled lawyer would take his fee from the public purse in order to show that the policeman had issued advice that was irresponsible - that would be another sad but in some ways understandable thing - but to simply say these officers were right was poor judgement and unfortunate

Michael Taylor, Delhi, India

Why no IPCC investigation? A death after Police contact, with much more likelihood of bad practice than the average police shooting or car chase.

Irxin, Devon,

Back in the 1960's, we had real policemen,law and order and commonsense. Thanks to the social workers, the health and safety brigade,and four generations of spineless politicians, we have gangs of foreign criminals roaming the country, and unelected individuals from Europe telling us what to do.
A real policeman was never far away and would have made a difference.

Clive Burghard, LANCING, ENGLAND

It's a very sad indictment on this 'PC' world that we live in, that Senior Police officers are prepared to stand up for their PCSO's for failing to carry out an act of humanity, just because they are not specifically trained for an eventuality. Relatively few of us have been suitably trained to carry out water rescues, but most of us know that faced with the situation we would do all that we could to help. It smacks of pure 'blame avoidance' to me, and shows a distinct lack of integrity and responsibility on behalf of the officer concerned, not to mention lack of moral fibre, not to stand up and say...'they were wrong, they should have done more'. Not because they were PCSO's trained or untrained, but because they are human beings, who one day might need the help of other human beings to come to the assistance of their own children in their hour of need. I hope the officer knows in his heart that he is just towing the party line, and doesn't really believe his comments.

James Rowntree, Milton Keynes, Bucks

I think this is a manifestation of a deeper current in society, of a world-view which has been inculcated and encouraged by various agencies, politicians, schools and the wider media particularly during the reign of New Labour, and which is characteristic of those acculturated in an authoritarian environment. This is a mind-set which discourages independent action, individual initiative and resourcefulness, and encourages individuals to believe that they are somehow entitled to act only when they are authorised to do so. If there are no orders, then there is no action. If orders to come, they are acted on. This is a mind-set characteristic of homo-sovieticus, the prototypical inhabitant of the Soviet Union when it existed. It is excellently illustrated in the film The Life and Extraordinary Adventures of Private Ivan Chonkin, based on the book by Vladimir Voinovich. (I have been trained and empowered to compose and send in this comment).

Trofim, Birmingham, UK

I'm sure they've all had ample training in reporting untaxed cars - the main focus of Britain's police now being revenue collection.

eric campbell, harrogate, uk

Has anyone asked the policeman left at the scene what happened? Perhaps he cant swim?

Andy, Reading, Berkshire