I have experienced both sides of the coin I have been a working father and now am a single parent, would one of these OTHER SPECIES look after their young if the mother left??? Bulls, swans, humans Whatever, young need someone to show them right from wrong, and to make sure they are looked after whether it is feeding and cleaning or defending and teaching, I dont care if it is male or female but the teaching should be from a responsible parent who loves their clildren, Gay, lesbian or straight as long as a child has a loving safe enviroment WHO CARES??

peter, wales,

All children NEED a responsible and loving carer to thrive, whether that be mother or father. Humans are emotional and social animals and thrive best when both parties are involved. However, children do not NEED both parties to survive or to thrive.

Gillian, Belfast, Ulster

The point the writer has made is that children don't NEED their fathers, and this is true. They do not. But children do WANT their fathers ... and I think this also needs to be addressed.

Gillian, Belfast, Ulster

I grew up with neither a supportive mother nor a father, and I turned out great. I have a degree and I'm mother to a beautiful son. We don't need parents to teach us, but we want them. Children without parents are lonely individual and need guidance. But they do not need either party to live and become contented, well rounded adults.

Gillian, Belfast, Ulster

I find it amazing, that if you are female single parent your child is most certainly going to turn to crime and become a burden on society. I am a single parent who has a degree and have never been in trouble and until having my daughter had a well paid job. I can provide my daughter with all the love and guildence she needs. In a ideal world it would be great for a child to have the traditional family enviroment, which is what I thought I had until her father worked out on us and hasnt been in contact since. I find some off the comments disturbing and I know plenty of two parent families who have trouble with there children its not just single parents.

Its women like me who had a child believing that they are were going to have a happy family. Then the father walks out and doesnt care about the child that don't like men. But its doesnt mean I dont deserve my daughter as she is loved and cared for by me more than her father has ever bothered doing.

Donna, bedford, Bedfordshire

having grown up in the era of equal rights etc. I find this artical obviously written by someone who has come before the time of equal rights or during the time woman faught for them. Its time that the older generation puts down their arms and stop making ignorant accusations or statements regarding these topics which are getting old fast. Unfortunately I didn't give this artical my full attention nor read, after I had an initial anti-male / ignorant sensation from reading the title and third paragraph. Perhaps the writter had the unfortunate child hood of being brought up by these stereo typed fathers who just bring home the bread. Perhaps the father was poor at raising a child, who's to say all fathers are? I was brought up by my father, and still dont hold the ignorance to say a child DOESN'T need a mother. In realistic views, a child needs a great leader, and a teacher. As a married person might know, working together can amplify this, to which both parents are benifitial

Blake Carstensen, Abbotsford, B.C.

Although your view has been received as anti-male by many of the commenters (and I certainly understand where they're getting that impression) I don't think that's the true point your making.

Yes, I think a good male role model is very important for children, particularly young boys. But this idealisation should not be used to ban IVF therapy to lesbian couples, any more than male gay couples should be prohibited from adopting (even though, one could say, a mother or at least a female role model is even more important for a child). I think the point is not specifically that men are redundant (although it does come off like that) just that they are not an absolute requirement to raise a healthy child - any more than a mother figure is.

Chani, Brisbane,

I happen to be a single father. Dont you dare suggest my two boys (small boys 2 1/2 and 4 years) would be better of without me. Their mother is now a drug addicted prostitute un fit to care for herself let alone 2 kids.

I see single mums everyday and am shocked and appalled by the way they conduct themselves and families.

Perhaps these members of society male or female would be better off without children.

May i ask you what you would blame the breakdown of our society and culture on then if its not caused by the breakdown of family values. Discipline, love and respect given out the childs mother and father.

Name withheld, Wimborne, England

I find this article hard to swallow because of the blatant anti-male, overtones and the blatant one sidedness of it. As a man I certainly think that each child needs to have a father figure in their lives. Maybe it can be a loving stepfather, maybe it can be a grandfather who the child visits every day, or it could be any other person capable of providing that kind of love and affection and to dismiss men as walking wallets and to say that single mothers only miss our paychecks to me displays a tremendous lack of research. Ask any single mother, or single father, and I bet you that 99% of them will say that they wish they had a man or a woman to help them raise their children, not just their man-sized paychecks.

Oh and by the way, Lesbian couples are just as able to have a big paycheck as heterosexual couples, but oh well, adding that would not allow this article to undermine men.

Tom R, Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada

This article is an attempt to undermind the importance of a father to his children. The Family Courts have done the very same thing for years. The thought that the absence of a man's money is what makes a child go off the rails is ridiculous.

It is not by chance that over 80% of prison inmates are raised by single mothers. Raising children is not a one person job. Adults who grow up fatherless are 20 times more likely to be imprisoned and 8 times as likely to commit murder than adults who grew up with a father present. Do you still think fathers are not important?

Anti-lesbian? Stop being anti-man, its costing us our children!

Narvis, Berlin, NJ

Children don't need fathers, and society dosn't need stable, well adjusted people, but both seem to manage better with them.

You know if you replace every he with a she and mother with father in the article above it sounds remarkably 19th century

Alex, London,

Please, please, stop this nonsense. I know some women see us only as walking wallets but our children don't. It's stupid to claim that fathers are only needed to bring the check home. This can be attested by every son of a divorced father who pays child support but who cannot see his son daily.

I am a high school teacher and I can detect who of my students don't see their fathers. From the day one when they enter in my classroom.

I remember the outstanding model who was (and is) my father. He taught me responsibility, to keep my word, to be faithful and loyal, to get the job done, to strive for perfection, to be fair and compassionate and thousands of more things (of course my mother was also outstanding but we talking about fathers).

I really regret that feminism, which started saying the fair "Men are women are equal", has derived to the insane "Men are no good, except as a tool for women achieving whatever they want".

Finsalscollons, Madrid, Spain

One important effect of a father's influence on a girl can be that she grows up compassionate and able to empathise. Evidently something has gone badly wrong with Ms Sarler in her upbringing in this area, as she has absolutely no empathy or compassion whatsoever not only for fathers, but for the children whom she is so ready to deny a father.

Ilmarinen, Jyvaskyla, Finland

I suggest the author read 'The Wounded Woman,Healing the Father/Daughter Relationship'.There is a poem in the introduction which sums up all the feelings that a child has 'wounded' by the lack of a father. It is how I have felt since my father died, when I was eight.

Jan, London, England

I think it is pathetic that a newspaper such as the Times allows such misinformed, unreasearched rubbish to be published. The very fact that she is comparing humans to animals shows what an immature and poorly developed argument she has. Get some researched articles on here than allow a proper analysis and critique of a subject.

Nige, Derby,

There is no evidence that two mothers can't be as good as a mother and a father.

I'm sure if you asked most children without fathers that if they would rather have never been born, they would answer that they are happy to be alive.

Rebecca, London,

Hmmm, some pretty 'raw' research here regarding the medieval period, hunter-gatherers and, well, everything else. And you criticise Baroness Deech for not saying which research she quoted? 'professional estimates'? No, really, if this is the retarded vegetable-level of journalism required for the Times these days I might as well go and bury some relics, knead dough with my buttocks, and cast some bones into a hexagram to come up with a slightly more informed position on the matter.

David, Carlisle,

Emma, from Chatham
"When we see fathers provide more practical and emotional care for their children is when their absense will be missed.

As has been pointed out in study after study, the majority of housework and chiuldcare is done by women. If men had done their fair share, we could say that their absense will be missed.

What actually do "traditional men" do apart from earn money?
Yes, fathers have started to be more flexible and yes take their kiddies to the park. But this is only after divorce when they realise they have to work for contact.

Of course, most fathers don't"

Did you really mean to post this?! I have never read such rubbish. Don't presume to tell me that i don't pull my weight or provide 'practical and emotional care' for my daughter.
That smile she gives me when i get home each evening is enough to tell me you don't have a clue.

APJ, Peterborough,

Reading the comments is infinitely more interesting than the actual article... Brilliant!

Damien Scullion, Belfast,

Carol wants us for our money and our sperm. Who said men were shallow?

Frank Upton, Solihull,

Kudos to women for taking matters into their own hands. These intrepid women surely deserve better treatment, and, as the author suggests, greater financial support from those who are obligated.

As we all know, there are far too many deadbeat "men" who steadfastly refuse to forward wads of the products of their bodily labor to the very same women who refuse to let them raise their own kids. This is unconscionable.

These. Men should pay. What else are they good for?

As a consequence, I now propose a new policy. All "sperm banks" are now and henceforth to be held accountable for child support, just as if they were "real men" as they should surely aspire to be.

For what is man but a sperm bank after all? Those patriarchal inseminating corporate stooges have been exploiting the wee wittle wimmins' addening urge for reproduction for far too long. A corporate lackey who inseminates a woman for a mere pittance of a fee is surely just as exploitative

Julian Droms, Berkeley, CA

... Sorry my post got cut off...

As a consequence, I now propose a new policy. All "sperm banks" are now and henceforth to be held accountable for child support, just as if they were "real men" as they should surely aspire to be.

For what is man but a sperm bank after all? Those patriarchal inseminating corporate stooges have been exploiting the wee wittle wimmins and their rapant and irresponsible urges for reproduction for far too long. A corporate lackey who inseminates a woman for a mere pittance of a fee is surely just as exploitative

Juian Droms, Berkeley, CA

This article clearly speaks the truth. So what if my father died when I was a kid. I mean, he's a father and who needs one of those? The loser should have stayed alive until I was 18 so he could have paid child support...and then died.

Jason, West Hartford, CT

What do fathers do for their children? Try these examples.
This father pushes his son's wheelchair in marathons, triathlons and more. Why because his son said to him.. "Dad," he typed, "when we were running, it felt like I wasn't disabled anymore!"

http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=1440#comments

Or this dad who pushes his son in a college marching band

http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=1441#more-1441

Kelly M. Bray, Long Beach, California, USA

If Carol Sarler's views on parenthood are representative of the mainstream lesbian community, than I would say that they really should not be parents. I hope and believe that that is not the case.

Vladimir, são paulo, Brazil

No,not children,Emily,Boys.The past few years have seen the
most diabolical marxist war on men but is having the worst effects on young boys.Read Christina-hoff Sommers "War on
Boys".I can only say to Feminism ,You are not logical,do not take account of Biology or Anthropology and what you sow ,so shall you reap.

michael savell, eastbourne, uk

To the author of this article:

I trust that you have extensive first-hand experience of the pain of growing up fatherless, as a solitary latch-key kid, as your mother was out earning a "man-equivalent" salary and never had time away from work?

I trust you too know well the deep and scarring pain of such loneliness and what it's like to have your class at school laugh at you for the same?

And I trust that this experience is what you base your considered view upon.

If not, I'll spare you my real words, because you should be able to work them out for yourself.

Mathew, London, England

The argument that fathers are unnecessary because children made do without them in times of war is specious, at best. One might just as well argue that mothers are unnecessary because children can be raised by their father alone. I realise that the author is intentionally courting controversy, but imagine the outcry is a man wrote such a disparaging article about women.

Ben, London, UK

As a child from a single parent family, and a lesbian (I'm sure somebody will attribute this to my being brought up without a father, but by doing so will insinuate that my sexuality is a problem which should have been avoided and earmark themselves as a homophobe) I feel well placed to comment.

Children need a stable home life, whether this is with just their Mum, just their Dad, both, their mum and a partner of any gender or their dad and a partner of his choice. What matters is that whoever is there loves them and cares for them, provides the support they need and nurtures them.

The issues I have with my Father come from the fact that he chose to abandon me, not that I have suffered from his absence. As this article mentions, all that I have missed is his six-figure salary which sure would have helped when I was growing up on a council estate! My mum alone has provided all the love and care I could ever wish for.

Laura, Brighton,

My father could say 10 words and my mother could say 1000 but I always knew which were the more valuable to me as a young man. ( I do have a great relationship with both and they are equally successfull people).

Matt, Edinburgh, UK

Well, if this right, I guess it backs up the old feminist argument that women trade sex for money. How far we have come.

Ian, Norwich, England

So a single woman / lesbian women has a "right" to birth by unnatural means, but the children in question don't have the right to a father?

Priceless. And befitting someone who thinks that children are a commodity that women are entitled to.

Dave, Sheffield,

Andrew Ezea, I agree with you.
My Dad gave up a very promising career in accountancy to have custody of myself and my siblings as my Mum wanted to be somewhere else.
He taught me to love life, respect others and left me such happy memories when he sadly died in 1998.

Helen, West Sussex, UK

As a daughter whose father lived half way across the world from me from a young age my own experience leads to say that I fundamentally disagree with Carol. This is not an anti lesbian or anti gay statement, but a child needs role models of both sexes. While this isn't always possible, pretending that it won't have any impact on the children involved is farcical.

S.Pearce, London, UK

My father left when I was 7 and ceased to exist in my world . Don't tell me I didn't need him and didn't suffer without a father. I needed him desperately and at the age of 57 I still regret that he left. Some children may not need a father, I disagree , but even if that is the case how is it possible to tell at the time. I believe that every child deserves a father, not an experiment.

Terry, Radstock, England

I had a biological father who was an alcoholic and a step-father who was a paedophile and I spent most of my childhood protecting myself, but I turned out alright, not screwed up.
My brother used to wet himself, even when he was in his lates teens he was so frightened of his father and ended up becoming a fantastic bully and doing exactly the same to his kids.
So lets hear it for fathers.

DCH, Nottingham, UK

if you wanted to write an article about how men don't need wives given the availability of commercial sex and nannying, you'd probably drum up a few more strident responses. it's a bit pointless, though.

clearly, any child benefits from love and attention, as well as a bit of discipline.

I don't see why the ivf clinics should dictate that there should be a father any more than they can moderate the behaviour of fathers (or mothers). there's no right to a good parent.

what they should do, however, is make sure that if the father wants to be involved, he can be.

a far more useful change in the law would allow fathers some rights to their children. including rights of fathers of unborn children to participate in the process of decisions on abortion. it seems that all the law wants to do is impose financial obligations on fathers. and that is hardly fair.

if my three children had to survive with one parent, I'd pray it was me for their sakes!

and what victor said!

jem, london, uk

I am in the family court system court by choice to see my daughter, the mother being a lesbian, as she said this court the judge spent a long time trying to convince her of evidence from the 4 educated corners of the world that having a child raised by both parents is advantageous to the child - the mother did not listen just went on to spout everyone in my family (and I have 3 kids already) was against her, numerous false accusations. I will stand up, make sure my children have their father and mother for their own well being. To empower women/lesbians to crush the traditional family and do away completely with male help is sexist. I won an agruement with a female colleague about sexism by proving that the family court system is biased towards the mother, we men often admit defeat, this women refused to comment and went off grumbling to herself. I stand (& sometimes it feels very alone) for my childrens rights after my child was taken away from me - what women dreads that??!!

Bruce, East London,

This is an awkward argument with some awkward assumptions and responses.

What is the real issue when we talk of boys needing fathers? I've known a number of young men who suddenly found themselves without fathers, their families suddenly becoming a single parent units, when in their teens or childhood, and none of them have developed any symptoms that are often argued as being down to the lack of male role-model. The difference between these men and others? Their fathers died. They did not leave.

But the lads in question still grew up without fathers, same as the boys from divorced or other no-father single parent households.

So the question is is it the lack of a father, or the sense of abandonment that is the real problem?

Viv, Leeds,

I would imagine that if the article was worded against mothers, it would never have been published.

This artcle assumes that mothers are needed and then from there deduces that fathers aren't. However, should it not start from the basis that one parent is needed and then try to deduce that the other isn't.

Children don't need either parent, but of course benefit from both.

Dr D Dragon, Bath,

Any study of anthropology will show that children don't "need" a parent in the sense of a mum & dad. They need a person to form an attachment with, ideally backed up by a few other regular contacts. That person could be a relative, older sibling or someone completely unrelated. Ideally speaking that person sufficiently well rounded themselves that they are capable of caring for a baby, small child and ultimately able to let the older child grow into an adult.
Wouldn't we all be better looking at ways of improving our parenting skills generally, rather than having futile debates about the rights of embryos!

Fiona, London, UK

I am male, 54 years old and I was bought up by my mother since I was six. I never really understood what it was I missed but I knew there was something missing, and still do. Of course children need both parents. That is opposite sex parents. We are all made of a genetic mix of male and female, live and work in a world of male and female, and part of growing up is seeing and learning how male and female live successfully together. How their differing perspectives and life experiences can be combined into a successful relationship.

I have absolutely nothing against lesbian or gay couples, or whether married or not, but a child needs the input of opposite sexes to grow properly. Anyone who argues differently to what nature has designed is seeking to justify their own selfish ends and not those of the child, but then of course in so many ways this is what our society has become; me first and everything else very much in last place.

Ray, Clacton on Sea,

This is typical feminist claptrap about the need for men beyond being the producers and distributers of sperm to help procreate the species. Now that we no longer live in the primeval swamp or toil in the fields men just seem to get in the way of things by needlessly complicating Miss Moderns perfect life. A life brought to you in no small measure by men who were willing to imagine, build, and when necessary defend a society that, though far from perfect, is the best the world has yet seen. This indulgent bloviating has nothing to do with families and children but everything to do with blind egocentric self gratification. Or to paraphrase; "Now that you've baked the cake I want to eat it all".

Joe Thornton, Warrenton VA , USA

One of the most destructive, mendacious and pernicious pieces of writing I've seen. Ms Sarler ought to read some history books.

"What we now call the “traditional” role of a father is not, in fact, much older than post-Second World War" - a nonsensical liberal myth.

Next week in the Times :

"Another gang shooting - where are the male role models ?"

Laban, Puddletown, Dorset

If this argument had any truth, it would also be true to say that because many orphans end up happy and successful, that must mean mothers are totally redundant as well.

It's odd that someone putting forward such a supposedly pro-female, anti-male argument actually ends up supporting the mysoginists who claim that women are only after men for their money! It's as if Carol Sarler lives in a cynical world where love between men and women and between men and their children has no value.

Men contribute hugely beyond just their salary. Most these days spend a good deal of time contributing to the day-to-day admin of running a home, whether it's contributing to the work in the house and garden or sorting out the bills or whatever. Many also do practical things for their kids like ferrying them to their judo lessons or parties, or just playing with them. But the main thing they contribute is love. If Carol Sarler sees that as worthless, you really have to pity her.

David Space, London, UK

Presumably Carol Sarler, and the folk behind these recommendations, believe that children of sperm doners should therefore be denied any right to find out who their father is? Surely if knowledge of the father is so utterly irrelevant, the "right" to that knowledge cannot possibly outweigh the doner's right to privacy?

Nick Beard, Seattle, US

Let's say we want all children to be happy, confident, self-reliant, curious, capable, compassionate, kind and fully engaged in their environment. What do they need to achieve this? To be loved and respected. To be guided with wisdom. To be nurtured and encouraged. To be protected at times and pushed out at others.

It is misguided to legislate whom the person should be who must provide this to a child, because such a commitment cannot be imposed. And it makes no sense to exclude by law someone who can provide this to a child simply because the person doesn't fit the stereotype of the ideal family.

peter, Pittsburgh , pa

It's really funny. First "they" say that fatherless children are the ones with all of the problems in society, especially within minorities; now we are being told that fathers are "redundant". So which is it?

Stu, Fairfax, VA

Don, I would have thought the harm, harassment and stigma the child would have to endure comes from the taunts from people like you and your kids, not the "couple" or the child involved, no?

"The argument that lesbians or homosexual 'couples' are substitutes for a loving traditional family is utter nonsense and I pity those children having to endure the long-term psychological harm, harassment and stigma associated with it."

Don Smith, Oxford, UK

James, Reading,

"Ask any single mother what she most misses about having a man and her answer will be a man-sized salary"

Steer clear of single mothers would be my advice then guys!

And Carol Sarler, obviously.

Malcolm, London, UK

Given that same-sex parenting is a relatively new dynamic, I'm not convinced that there is enough data to make any comparison between that and a "traditional" family. The few same-sex parents that I know seem deeply committed to each other and devoted to their children, none of whom were produced accidentally, by the way.
Children raised in single parent families would probably benefit from another parent being around (usually a father) if only to share the responsibility of raising a family. However, to say this can't be a second mother, or a second father is a specious argument, especially when many same sex parents take great pains to ensure that their children have loving relationships with family members of the 'other' sex.

Toni Hargis, expat, Chicago, USA

It appears that Carol Sarler has taken this opportunity to voice a sexist rant against the male of the species. Her explanation of how many people throughout the generations have managed without fathers, or without having fathers who are particularly involved with their upbringing, just serves to explain away her obvious antipathy for men.

Karl Chads, London, UK

Even the title of this piece shows that this article is solely about women's needs, not the child's as it should be.

The present law protects children who have a right to have the opportunity of a father in their lives.

Are gay men going to be allowed the same rights and privileges when they use a surrogate mother? As this bill proposes for single women and lesbians. No - is the answer.

This government action discriminates wholly against children and males (gay or straight).

Jeff, Surrey,

I agree with Carol Sarler. I have brought my son up on my own, while working full time, and put him through university on my own. He is now a professional in an extremely lucrative career. It has been hard and he did go off the rails in his teens (but that is not exclusive to one parent families!) but he is now a lovely, strong and kind person.

He is proof that you do not need a father. Some woman and their children may want one but they don't actually need one.
A mother can provide everything that is needed and Carol Sarler is right when she says that the only thing missing is to have a man sized salary around!

kim, london,

I've recently become a husband to a single mother of 7 years and a step father to a truly wonderful little girl. Your article has been written full of stereo typical social modelling and feminism that just does not translate into reality!?

I bring home a very good wage and we've decided that my wife no longer needs to work and is staying at home to be with our daughter more. So we fit your model: I wasn't "needed" for the first 5 years of her life, I leave for my long commute at 6am and get home at 7pm, I earn good money.

But my partner would tell you (we talk about these things) that due to me in the last 3 years our daughter has grown massively in confidence, her wider knowledge and appreciation of the "male" point of view has expanded and discipline is reinforced purely by my presence.

Learning to be an adult involves interaction with and the building of relationships with BOTH sexes.

I might also add that some women can be just as lost at being parents as some men...

Dave, London, UK

A couple of years ago a research article published in Readers Digest found that children learn empathy from their fathers, not their mothers! Yes what a surprise!! The research pointed out that this is demonstrated, for example, when dad romps with his kids but is careful not to hurt them, showing restraint and care. This is action is thenm internally absorbed by the child. Hence a child who does not have a caring father may have empathy issues. Carol Sarter has written a ridiculous article that is outdated by about 30 years and smacks of the intolerant man hating feminism of the sixties and seventies. Obviously Carol has never witnessed the wonderful interaction between a child and its father. Sad for you Carol. Get your head out of your computer and look around the parks and playing fields. Write what you see and hear - not what you read.

Angela, Abbotsford, Canada

Nature cant lie - why do you think it takes a MAN and WOMAN to make a baby? If a woman was designed to raise children alone, then she would be able to impregnate herself!

Inpo, Lagos, Nigeria

Hannah, behaviour is shaped by genetics AND by environment. Research shows that: a child brought up by a physically abusive father (not necessarily the biological father) is more likely to be physically abusive him/herself; a child brought up by a sexually abusive father is more likely to sexually abuse others; a child brought up by a doctor is more likely to become a doctor; and a child brought up by a plumber is more likely to become a plumber etc. There is no conclusive research on whether a child brought up by a homosexual parent / parents is more likely to be homosexual him/herself, as until recently laws were in place to prevent this, but it would appear likely given the above research results. I am not arguing that homosexuality is a good or bad thing, but that the logic of your 'it isn't catching' argument is flawed.

Dave, Birmingham, UK

"Forget the sexuality aspects and think about the child ! "


Yes indeed, the world can be a terrifying place for a child wih only one self-obsessed parent. I can speak fom personal experience........

Patricia Foster, newbury, england

well, sod this for a game of soldiers.

This 33yo, single white male with a 'man-sized' salary is off to the pub with his mates. I know when I'm not needed.

Ben, London,

I think this article could be easily condensed to "I have Daddy issues". I think once you understand that, you'll see why children need their fathers.

John, Huntingdon,

If children don't need father, why is it that 9 out of 10 prison inmates raised without a father? As a teacher I see that children need both parents.

Terry, London, England

The writer is correct, of course.

Children don't need fathers--or mothers for that matter. The government can provide money and daycare. I mean, look at all the working mothers who are perfectly content to leave their children with minimum-wage daycare workers. Mothers are easily replaced--they even want to be replaced.

I do hope this means at long last that men will be let off the hook for child support, alimony, and college tuition. Women will just have to raise kids on their own, with no help, financial or emotional, from dad. Great for us guys--all the sex we want with no responsibility for the consequences. Men will truly be sexually and financially liberated. Kids will be the sole responsibility of dear old mum.

That's what women want, right? And what women want, by George, women get.

Paul R, Denver, USA

I am an only child and my mother died during my birth. My father was left very alone and isolated to raise me by himself. He sacrificed a great deal in order to give me the best life possible, struggling to get the kind of welfare, benefits and support that typically only single mothers receive.

I am now happily married, a successful engineer and have a great deal of respect for both genders.

Please tell me, Carol Sarler, once a child is born, what it is that only a mother can provide that a father can not possibly accomplish? Your hatred for men seems to be deeply rooted in something very disturbing.

Perhaps its the fact that I never see females being taught to respect men the way males are routinely taught to respect women. I can only hope there are not more sinister reason, as a man who had the nerve to write such an article against women would be cast out of all circles.

This article is a simple indication of how far women have gone instead of how far they have come.

James, Bakersfield, California

Kudos to women for taking matters into their own hands. These intrepid women are surely deserving of better treatment, and, as the author suggest, greater financial support from those who are obligated to them.

As we all know, there are far too many deadbeat "men" who steadfastly refuse to forward wads of the hard-earned products of their bodily labor to the very same women who refuse to let them raise their own kids. This is unconscionable. These. Men. Should. Pay. Or what else are they good for?

As a consequence, I now propose a new policy. All "sperm banks" are now and henceforth held accountable for child support, just as if they were "real men" as they should surely aspire to be.

For what is man but a sperm bank after all? Those patriarchal inseminating corporate stooges have been exploiting the wee wittle wimmins and their rapant reproductive urges for far too long. A corporate lackey who inseminates a woman for a mere pittance of a fee is surely just as exploitative as t

Julian Droms, Berkeley, CA

Even at the ripe old age of 32 I still find myself thinking about my dad, wondering where he is, wondering if he’s thinking about me and does he still love me … if he ever he did? I’m not even angry that he left any more, I just want him to know him, for him to be a part of my life and for him to be proud of me. I love my father even though I could pass him in the street without knowing it’s him. I wish I had a father’s love and warmth. I’m so jealous of my girlfriends when I hear them talking about their dads, even the ones whose relationships aren’t so close. At least they have a dad. At least he’s there, in their lives.

It is true what they say about girls who don’t have fathers. You either become a prude or very promiscuous. I became the former, having never slept with a man until I was married … not because I’m a Christian or affiliated with any religion for that matter (because I’m not) … but because up until I met my husband I was terrified that they would leave me.

Shelley, Long Island , New York

Like my father did.
And then this ever present ache in my heart will become twofold. I wanted and needed a man to love me in the way that I never experienced with my dad. And so I remained alone and a virgin until my husband came along. The gods certainly blessed me, perhaps because they saw that I had been deprived of a man’s love for too long. The effects the absence of a father has on a boy … I don’t even have to get into it. Just look on the African American community … as a matter of fact, look at any community where fathers aren’t present. With people like Carol Sarler, we’re setting society up for a nasty fall.
Children who don’t have access to both parents suffer deep psychological disturbances. It takes away from you as person, does nothing for your self-esteem and stuns your development as a human being. You may seem like a normal person, in the sense that you do not commit crimes and you’re kind to those around you, but there are scars on the inside that no one can see.

Shelley, Long Island , New York

This is not just an "all men are obsolete" type article, which are becoming tedious. It is ostensibly disparaging towards farthers, but the real damage is inflicted on mothers; including possible future mothers.

Sarler argues that the most useful role of a father is "garnering the means of survival". In modern speak that means men continue with their careers whilst women raise the kids. At the back of every interviewer's mind is that mothers, or even possible mothers-to-be, are going to want time off work every time little Joey's sick, etc. The same assumption is not made about fathers who struggle to get time off on the same terms. Again, ostensibly bad for fathers but also leading to women losing out in the employment stakes.

It's difficult to engender a spirit of fathers taking, & being allowed to take, more paternal responsibility when the value placed on fatherhood is not intrinsic, but varies to suit whatever special interest group is being championed.

Darren Ball, London, Stoke Newington

We all know that most heterosexual parents bring children into the world with the best intentions of staying together, but regretfully large numbers now divorce or separate and create a compromised situation for the child’s life. That is something that wasn’t planned and there are many unforeseen events that compromise the lives of children. Lone parents naturally have children, or one parent deserts their offspring, are unfit parents or give their child away. These are the sad facts of life, and society tends to reap the effects when things go wrong for these children. So why on earth would we want to bring children into this world knowing the compromise ahead of the game? Creating a life without a father, and with or without a second mother figure is fundamentally wrong as it knowingly creates a life by artificial means that is compromised from the beginning. Surely if we are going to go to such lengths to use medical science to create life, we'd do so in the best possible way.

David, Manchester, England

Whether or not children needed fathers in past societies is beside the point, surely. What many current studies and theories suggest is that in our society *now* children have better lives when there are two parents. And anyway, I take issue with this idea that men ignored their offspring until 1972 (or whatever). If you look at good historical sources through the ages there are many many examples of men having close and touching relationships with their children; it's a fallacy to imagine that the emotions and attachments of people in the past were so profoundly different to our own.

Margot, Toronto, Canada

Barry Day says, “Interesting reading, quite revealing that all those disagreeing can find no faults with the logic, instead resorting to attacks on the author. . .”

Logic based on false premise is not logic at all. The author invites attacks on that basis alone.

Robert T Builder, New York, USA

I assume when David from Reading says "Lets ignore the wisdom of so many - including the son of God who said God made us Male and Female" he is referring to the words in the book of Genesis - which were written many thousands of years before the birth of Christ and therefore cannot be attributed to him. The most important thing Christianity teaches us is that love, above all things is vital - if a mother alone (or two mothers together) can provide this, I am sure Jesus would have no qualms. David, for future reference, if you're going to bring the Bible into a discussion, at least quote it correctly.

Nina Grant, London,

Dear me! It speaks volumes about the quality of her own relationships with men!

Graham , Birmingham,

This is sophism Carol Sarler. What is your real agenda?

Jane Hicks, Nelson, BC Canada

The author would have certainly benefited a lot from the presence of her dad. Perhaps just because of the unfortunate circumstance of being brought up in a dysfunctional family has made her the person she is now.
One could only hope that the human society, with time would gather enough knowledge and wisdom to raise itself above the queen bee-like mentality that considers males as necessary but undesirable providers of genetic material to self-sufficient single mothers. Which of course in a male dominated society are deprived of the salary they deserve.

Astrit, Los Angeles,

Interesting reading, quite revealing that all those disagreeing can find no faults with the logic, instead resorting to attacks on the author because she is well ... a woman. How many comments here say, "look at a study which will say something different" (without naming which study or how it came to those conclusions), or, "in my personal experience", (for which read "i am right, i have no proof i am right, but it's me so it must be right").

And as for the claim that the family is as old as civilization - really? News to me, and I'm sure every anthropologist you could care to ask.

Barry Day, Glasgow,

As nice and caring as my mother was, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that she didn't influence me one iota in my growing up. The point of the matter is that, as a kid who grew up between two family homes, it was my dad who had the most influence and was the most inspiring person in my life at the time, and any associated roles of parenthood were aptly dealt with by both. I'm not against either parent, but by the same measure as suggesting that a kid doesn't need a father, I would counter that by saying, by my experience, that I could have done fine without a mother, being born aside. I think there's too much 'strong woman' rhetoric going about when discussion turns to gender roles - because historically women haven't been fairly regarded as equal, attacks on the importance of the male are the modern day response. It's a rubbish response formulated in bitterness; the point is a kid needs a parent who will be a role model to them. In my case, it was 100% my father.

Alasdair, Melbourne, Australia

There's a difference between what women want and what children need. Women are driven by the basic instinct to secure a nice, warm, dry cave to rear young (yup, that's the man's salary in case you weren't paying attention) and all this is, is translating that primeval instinct into a pseudo-modern 21st century theory and passing it off as a fact and a justifiable position to boot. Not new dross, but dross anyway.

Marc, Bloemfontein, RSA

I thought the whole idea of feminism was that the sexes are equal and have equal rights. So women are viewed as equally capable as men in the work place and have all sorts of legal rights. Quite right too! But why doesn't it work the other way - why don't men get equal rights where the family is concerned? After separation, fathers should logically have equal rights to see their children and act as parents. But no - it seems the only rights fathers have is to be "cash machines" to pay maintenance and only get to see their children if the mother permits it.
I was outraged at the blatant way this article disparaged mens' role as parents, and effectively said they are only good for providing money. What if a man had written an article and said that women are no use in the workplace and are only good for procreation and parenting? There would be righteous outrage and the article wouldn't get published, I am sure. Surely this article is just as sexist?

Douglas, Nottigham, UK

Im 17 and have been fatherless since the age of two. I am not a tart, as someone above said I should be, I have respect for myself and know how I should be treated by men. My mum has been able to provide for us well. Sure, my brother is very overprotective of us, but are not all boys protective of their mums and little sisters- how many boys have got in trouble after kicking off after a 'your mum' remark?
How many children live in families where the parents are constantly fighting, drunk or abusive? I have not had to deal with that, which is surely much more damaging.
Of course, I have often longed for a father, as has my brother, and my mum for the emotional and financial support of a husband. A good dad is surely much more beneficial for children's development than none, but none is better than a bad one.
I feel that Carol could have made a much more convincing article on this though, as while reading it, it actually persuaded me for a while that we actually DO need fathers.

Kara, london,

The Uk and Usa house some of the unhappiest people on earth and reading Carol Sarler it is not hard to understand why.
Doing away with the usefulness of 1/2 of society is no mean
feat,the next policy to be debated is how to do away with men
permanently.
We used to be told by all family "experts" that what was needed
to have a functioning family was for the children to be mainly influenced by the mother till they were about 10 or 11 and then for the father to take over their teen,difficult years,what happened to these experts,are they all now dyed in the wool feminists?.
France is on almost total shutdown at the moment for the reason that it does not want to get into a sad situation like ours
where only women ,gays and lesbians have any say at all in
the media and the framing of family law.Any country which treats its men this badly is heading for big trouble.

michael savell, eastbourne, uk

It's always depressing to read the comments on these pages whenever the issue of gay parenting arises. Suddenly, everybody is an expert on what is best for the child involved, as if gay people give no consideration to this whatsoever. Given that a child born to gay parents can never be an accident, I find this a little illogical.

A role model for a child, of either sex, does not have to be a biological parent. As a gay woman, I would be uncomfortable bringing a child into the world if I could not provide a male role model, and I know many gay people who have similar thoughts. It just so happens that we also believe that we are capable of being perfectly good parents and don't see why we should not be able to bring a child into a loving, stable home just on the say-so of bigoted straight people.

There are people in this world who will make good parents, and those who will make bad parents. This is contingent upon the person, not their sexual orientation.

Sophie Bane, Liverpool,

Heh.heh heh.What a splendid giggle I have had reading this article.Men were only interested in their child when it was old enough to work, says the writer.Quite so.The mother probably was also.In days past you couldn't mince to the shops and buy food for the family that you can today at fairly reasonable prices.The children went to work because they HAD to.Parents these days, rightly or wrongly and in the recent past work all hours of the day so that their children can have the luxuries that they themselves had no chance of enjoying.The trouble is, is that life,though to some it may not seem so, is so very easy today.We all beleive that we can have everything that we desire these days.Some of us, because of our choices or inabilities will just have to put up with our lot.Accept it.

Steffan, Meltford, Suffolk

A typical marxist orientated lot of rubbish. No wonder other countries laugh at us, if she really means what she has wrote! I suspect she is generating controversy and I cannot believe she really means it in the face of all relevant statistics. Children thrive best with a mother and father. Anything else is feminist claptrap.

Brian, London, UK

Carol Sarler's view is anti-human and she might as well be spitting on her father, her male colleagues and gay men through her prejudiced insistence that only women make good parents. Could she and her supporters remove the genetic code inherited from the fathers so that all children will only have their mothers' dna? No? So, why propose a legal dishonesty to suit her prejudiced view?

Carolyn , Surbiton,

Hasn't a clue about family upbringing.

Francis, Madrid,

There are many moving testimonies here to the importance FELT BY THE CHILD of a father and I will say that my own experience very much supports them. It is the lack of consideration of the child by this strident man-hater bristling with her own private agenda that is, as has been said, the worst aspect. I think that aspect of her dangerously misguided view is encapsulated very sensitively by Tom from Cambridge when he writes that he ''would be very sad to see a person deliberately created in the full knowledge that they will never have a meaningful relationship with their father.'' Such personal testimonies are so deep and so authentic compared with the shallow theorisings of a Ms Sarler who is using children for her gender politics.

Ilmarinen, Jyvaskyla , Finland

When we see fathers provide more practical and emotional care for their children is when their absense will be missed.

As has been pointed out in study after study, the majority of housework and chiuldcare is done by women. If men had done their fair share, we could say that their absense will be missed.

What actually do "traditional men" do apart from earn money?
Yes, fathers have started to be more flexible and yes take their kiddies to the park. But this is only after divorce when they realise they have to work for contact.

Of course, most fathers don't

Emma, Chatham,

I'm fascinated by the way in which, even in the very title, this woman turns her argument from what children *need*, to what women want. She seems to be such a narcissist that she can not distinguish between the two.

I'm an American, and when I hear Hillary Clinton invoke "family values" and "protecting the children", I sense the same bait n' switch.

Bill McGair, Portland, USA / OR

I'm fascinated by the way that, even in the title, this woman turns her argument from what children *need*, to what women want. She appears to be such a narcissist that she can not distinguish between the two.

As an American, when I hear Hillary Clinton invoke "family values" and "protecting the children", I sense the same bait n' switch.

Bill McGair, Portland, Oregon USA

Why not simply ask the children themselves.

That never occurs to the academics and media people in their ivory towers.

Simply ask: Would you rather have a father and a mother or two mothers?

Simple enough.

Jens F. Andersen, Herning, Denmark

It is a pity that in this column a very serious issue like the rights of IVF and gay/lesbians children is killed by a series of patronising feminist rants.

Fabrizio, Bristol,

I agree with Derek, Laguna Hills, CA, that children don't *need* fathers or mothers in equal measure. Yes, children can and do survive as orphans, perhaps without homes, without a proper diet, etc... the issue is not how much a child can take, but how we should live and aspire to live.
As for Ms Sarler's comment "salary; it is the absence of that, rather than of the man himself, that makes children go off the rails." that is to me completely wrong - would Ms Sarler be at a loss to explain why kids *with* money go off the rails?
I wonder what Ms Sarler's relationship with her father is/was like...

Marco, Birmingham, uk

More broadsheet trash

Prideaux, Braintree,

The author is right... in part. Children do not NEED fathers. Likewise, they don't NEED mothers. Either/or will suffice, so long as there's one there.

But some of her "points," if they can be called that, concerning the historical lack of men are just laughable. Cavemen weren't around because they were always on the hunt? Apparently she forgot that evidence shows that women also went on the hunt, and that children were taught to hunt (by the men) from the time they could walk. Or that feudal women (rich) had teams of servants raising their children for them... the women were out of their children's lives at least as much as the men were. As for "feudal men (poor) ignored them until they were fit to work a field," well, that basically meant five years of age or so. If that.

Perhaps she would like to do a little research and try again?

Derek, Laguna Hills, CA, USA

In most families I know the children tend to get more laughs out of their father than from their mother (who may, to be fair, be otherwise occupied). Dads tend to goof around or just offer an alternative worldview.
Laughs are important to kids.

Jay Cee, Brussels,

This is the sort of misandry that passes for fashionable comment. It is destructive and dangerous.

If the same remarks were written about women they would never have been published. Its about time we men called a stop to this sort of behaviour and stated openly that this sort of 'man hate ' is no longer acceptable.

Hugh, London,

This article should be renamed... "When Political Agenda's Attack!"

Dave K, Naples, USA/NY

Very refreshing article! It is so wonderful to look at an old problem from an original angle! Thanks!

Hellen, NY, USA

Wow, how could I have missed all those male desires when I was growing up.
I never realized that men looked forword to going off to war so they didn't have to spend time with their family.
Or as a man I should enjoy working long hours a day so other people can spend the money I made and i would have the pleasure of not spending time with my family.
And to find out that it all comes from the hunter-gatherers of my family tree that found trecking for days, running the risk of getting gored or killed by wild beasts was a better choice than collecting berries because than you wouldn't have to be with your family.
Such insite, my head is spinning.
For years I thought I had little choice in all this. I was told it was my "job" to make life for my family safer and better.
What a jerk I was.
Before reading you article I thought that children need a loving and strong parent of either sex. Now I can see that all they really need is a woman. A bad woman sure is better than a good man.

Charles, Salem, Mass

I was a child protection lawyer for most of my career. Children do indeed survive with out fathers. They also survive without mothers. They not only survive but adapt. A lot of those adaptations are not good.

Women who could afford to out source the more awkward parts of mothering have always done so, with wet nurses and nannys. Human nature is the same in both sexes to this extent: better to hire someone else to clean up the messes.

Bill Cheshire, Connecticut, USA

William Kinloch, Cheshire, USA/Connecticut

The author's hatred of men is breathtaking. Her dismissal of male contribtutions to children is scarcely worth commenting on because it is so absurd, so obviously intended to incite outrage.

The only question worth pondering by this piece is why a legitimate publication would print rubbish of this sort in the first place.

Rufus Peckham, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania - USA

There's an interesting irony here. Hateful, anti-father diatribes like this article may well result in a backlash against any attempt by lesbians to gain access to donated sperm and IVF treatments.

Are Carol Sarler's anti-male sentiments shared by most lesbians? Should anyone so hateful of men be allowed to raise boys (or girls, for that matter)?

Thomas, Lafayette, USA

The debate that is raised is confusing. We are debating the rights of a child to know whether or not they have the right to know who their biologcal parents are. Shouldn't the question be: Do any of us have the right to tell them who their parents are. It is duty of care question and the decsion of the parents rather than the publics decsion,

Emma, Sydney, Nsw, Australia

My girlfriend has just announced she's pregnant with my child. I don't really feel like working hard to provide for her and our kid, but thanks to this article, I can abandon both of them, vanish from the scene and never pay child support, and without any guilt either! After all, us fathers aren't needed!

Hooray for feminism and its ability to justify us men not caring about women and "their" children!

I'm only joking incidentally, but seriously, women should be careful what they wish for. If you wish away us men, we shall indeed go away and play video games. Then who'll discipline your 14-year-old illegitimate sons when they outgrow you and threaten to beat you up because you told him to tidy his room?

John, London,

Shallow and immature. A debate is pointless. One only needs to take a gander at the current, pro-female/anti-male, western culture to realize its intentions and the consequences. The only debate is, what are we going to do about it?

Scott, Birmingham, US

I've not read all the comments here, but those I have read seem to be missing the point. Surely the article is questioning why IVF babies/children of gay adoptive parents should have more rights about knowing who their biological parents are than other children. The rest is waffle to make a good article and get us all talking.

KAS, Bedford, Beds

I say-
if the girls want to have the babies, later called children all to themselves - let them have it.
They will reap the rewards 20 years later.

But, just as a reminder: "the-man-sized-salary" was meant to cover the upbringing of a WHOLE family, not just a single, female, male parent.

And of course the girls would have to tell Ms. GOD what a terrible mistake she made creating two different kinds of humans.

zyclop, AVONDALE, AZ, USA

Great article!

Matthew , Norwich,

Yes indeed Seamus, think about the child. Please could we put their needs/wants first. I also take issue with the dismissive attitude to information provided on birth certificates, that the child has no need to know who their biological father is in the case of donor insemination/IVF. OH YES THEY DO! As someone who found out, late in life, that her entire life had been based on a lie I would say that children do indeed have the "right" to know their origins, When I was conceived there were no medical records, or indeed records kept of any sort, so........half of my identity/ethnicity/medical history will always be a mystery. Not fun I can assure you.

Stella, Worcester, U.K.

Carol Sarler has no idea what it is like to be without a father figure, or if she has, then she is damned lucky.
As someone who was first adopted then left with a widowed " mother" I can tell her the blow is a hefty one.
Admittedly this was a very long time ago but the loss is still felt to this day having had a " father figure" for eight years.
The things one misses out on are trivial to some but vital to others and should not need explanation.
Ms Sarler is misguided and I consider rather arrogant and selfish in her attitude toward the father figure. Doubtless it i s possible to bring up a child without a " father" but you have no idea what the emotional and physical consequences are.
Hunter gatherers ?, Ms Sarler where have you been ?.
Derek Price

derek price , codsall, south staffs.

Carol Sarler is right that a mother can get by raising a child on her own, or even with another woman. She is right that children have been raised in history without fathers and have turned out just fine. The thing is children have also been raised throughout history while experiencing child abuse and turned out all right. Perhaps next week she can argue the virtues of government aided child abuse.

Ms. Sarler's article trots off on an irrelevant historical point rather than considering the issue at hand; the benefit of the child. Studies have shown time and time again that children raised by a man and a woman do better. Hence, our only consideration should be creating a situation in which the likelihood of the child being raised properly is maximised, and not with political statements on female independence/ gay rights/ whatever point it is Ms Sarler is trying to make.

Abioye A Oyetunji, London, UK

Lets hope carol sarler is just playing devils advocate on this. If not then she is so misguided as to be dangerous. Lets ignore the fact that evolution has given us male and female - the most success species so far. Lets ignore the wisdom of so many - including the son of God who said God made us Male and Female - instead this is just a "me too" feminist agenda that says - everyone should be able to have children irrespective of sexulality - its not fair - well, sometimes life is tough and not everyone can have something. This is especially important when you are bring new human beings into the world. Does anyone think about the children in this? Do they get a say - of course not. Children are not like IPODs to be consumed and owned as a posession. Many with children often quote "Nature or Nurture" as having the biggest impact on a their childs development. In this case both are needed - male and female together.

David, Reading,

Ms Sarler writes that, "Ask any single mother what she most misses about having a man and her answer will be a man-sized salary". So she is prepared to admit that what women are looking for in a male partner is, essentially, money. Not to put too fine a point on it, a meal ticket. I am reminded of the story about George Bernard Shaw (or whoever) asking a society lady if she would sleep with him for a million pounds (worth 100 million today, thanks to inflation). When she admitted that she might, he asked her if she would do so for five shillings. She responded indignantly, "What do you take me for?" To which Shaw replied "We have already established that. We are just haggling over your price".

Tom Welsh, Basingstoke,

what utter utter rubbish. As the male product of a single parent family who was raised largely by his mother i can assure you that not only did i miss my father immensely but i also missed out on the type of nurturing that only a man could provide me. women and men are diferent in outlook, behaviour and ideals surrounding rearing a child. furthermore a mother simply cannot provide the understanding of what young men endure when becoming men in the same way that they can when girls become women.

"One is left to assume a more likely stance than their claim to be pro-father, which is that they are simply anti-lesbian". No, one is left to assume that it is women like you who give lesbians a bad name

simon mawdsley, london,

What nonsense Carol Snarler writes. Children need the love and discipline of a two-parent, mother-father upbringing. There is enough evidence to show that much of the youth anti-social behaviour is down to the breakdown of the traditional family. The argument that lesbians or homosexual 'couples' are substitutes for a loving traditional family is utter nonsense and I pity those children having to endure the long-term psychological harm, harassment and stigma associated with it.

Don Smith, Oxford, UK

Arthur, you don't get turned gay by contact with gay people. It isn't catching you know.

Phil, "Yes, some well-adjusted people were raised by single parents. But to deny that a home with a committed father and mother is best for any child is simply foolish." - How do you know that this isn't simply because the child has two parents instead of one, regardless of their gender?

Yes, men have a role to play in families - but they are not a requirement. And neither are women! Homosexual male couples don't need to involve women in their family life either.

Hannah, Telford,

sure you don't need fathers if you take this literal definition of 'need'. But by the same arguement you don't need mothers or many other of life's "extras". Plently of kids are "getting by" with no parrental support whatsoever on the streets of Mumbai etc...

However I thought the general consensus was that we should work towards making life better for everybody. Not stripping down to the essentials to advance some ridiculous socio-political point.

Patrick Callaghan, Luxembourg, Luxembourg

I sorry you don't like men.

I had a "father figure" in my early life, but he wasn't my true father, and even that is enough to cause me great unhappiness.

I would be very sad to see a person deliberately created in the full knowledge that they will never have a meaningful relationship with their father.

Tom, Cambridge, UK

More tendentious misandry.

Paul, Cusco, Peru

I'm not sure that the central contention (men are a luxury in the parenting process) is correct. Men bring something to the parenting party which is neccesary, especially for boys. Both boys and girls need to learn how to relate to men and how (generically) men behave. When I was a single parent I would have argued that fathers aren't neccesary, but once my son had a man about the house to relate to he became a calmer, happier boy. At very least children need a male role model in order to learn how to relate to half of society.

Oauline bird, Kigston upon Thames,

This article ignores modern role reversals in that, in western society, the female is just as likely to be engaged in a hunter gatherer role (I believe it is called a career) as the male. In fact I know of two families where the father is the full time carer because the mother is the more successful hunter gatherer.
This article might well argue that only one parent is necessary and that two is a luxury, but surely the female parent is just as redundant as the male. To suggest otherwise is demeaning to the great majority of fathers who take an active and important role in parenting.
I note that this article is written by female, presumably with a thriving jounalistic career. I wonder whether she is a mother and whether the father shares the parenting role, or whether, perhaps, she employs a nanny for the real parenting.

Jonathon Salt, Lichfield, UK

victor compton mentions all the things that women take for granted( that men have spent hours inventing in their sheds and caves, power steering, vacuum cleaners, hormone pills etc etc. ) Its not that we are ungrateful, just bewildered by the instruction manual .The issue is that each and every man had a mother who laboured to bring him into the world and who laboured for no pay or low pay to keep him clothed, healthy and fed, whilst the men sloped off to stir up battles, to hunt for snarks and wildebeest, to make sharp sticks even sharper, to erect shelters and tents, to light fires/barbeques, to stay late at the office( again ) to watch the semi finals/ the finals/ the european cup/ the league cup/ the world cup/ the inter galactic cup on Sky......we just want to know what time you think you think you might be back, and shall we put your tea in the oven or straight in the bin?

C Hamer, birmingham, uk

Much of what you say is right. The difference in the latter part of last century is that the teaching profession became increasingly feminised. Where a child in previous generations would have seen male role models in education or employment, no a child without a father need rarely have to even speak to a man. I don't personally think leads to well rounded personalities, and must be very bad for boys.

Dan, geneva,

The arguments which Carol puts forward might be superficially appealing, but I'm afraid the title of the article sums it up:

'Of course CHILDREN don't need fathers. What WOMEN miss most...'

That is, the premise that children don't need fathers is based entirely on what women, not children, miss if the father isn't around. Try some real intellectual and logical finesse next time Carol. Please.

Dave, London,

Parenting alone is no child's play.
It is not just a matter of money. It can be a very lonely space - unless the single parent has the whole clan behind him/her, plenty of friends and family who are happy to support and empower him/her in a truly constructive way. Dream on! More commonly, we get on alone. Sometimes someone may step in to help (like one's own parents or ex in-laws) , and we may find that "co-parenting" with someone we have not chosen as a partner is asking for trouble.
I believe a true partnership between adults - whether they are male or female, gay or straight , natural or step-parents - gives children what is really needed: a sound model of a relationship. After all, what are role models for - if they have no skills to relate to each other, communicate constructively, solve problems together and enjoy one another's company?
At times as a lone parent I wished I could have been a lesbian - to have the company of another woman who would understand me!

Rose, Glastonbury,

It's no wonder I can't find a partner if there are women making such statements and frightening them off.

Of course a father is essential. Without my father, I'd be able to do a lot less for myself now that I've not got any man in my life. My dad does all the DIY around the house and I've watched him and remembered all hi tips.

He is also the counterbalance to my mother and offers a second and different viewpoint.

Tina, Dusseldorf, Germany

Why on earth is the question of what a woman misses in a man addressed to single mothers. Assuming single by choice, although the article doesn't speicfy - they've already decided they don't want the man around so what else would they miss about him apart from the salary?

js, london,

We need a Mum and a Dad for deeply struck emotional reasons. Quite apart from being backed up by every statistic about child dysfunctionality that exists, it is obvious for archetypal reasons. The price we all pay for theories and ideas put forward by people like Carol Sarler is heartache, mainly in children. God save us from her.

Alexander, cape town,

A father and husband are extremely important to a family. My husband walked out on my daughter and me when she was 12 years old. Despite the acrimony that followed (he does not speak at all to me in any way) and his disengagement from my daughter we miss him terribly. He makes a giant-sized salary and has been ordered by the court to provide for us. But we miss his presence in the house and his role in our family even though he worked all day and travelled around the world. When he was home he was exhausted much of the time or on his blackberry and could barely change a lightbulb or put out the rubbish. But we loved him and shared our lives with him when he could and he called many times a day and showed his caring and loving as best he could. My daughter has suffered terribly by his absence.. It was his search for his career advancement and big pay cheque that destroyed our family life. I'd go back to the small university town where we started and not have the pay cheque.

Shalini Gupta, London,

What has happened to the concept of role models.
Where is the role model for a child of either sex brought up by a gay or lesbian couple?
I won't spell out the probable consequences for their sexual development, which are glaringly obvious, but what about their treatment by their fellow pupils at school when they have to say I have two dads or two mums?

arthur, york, uk

I'm glad this is on the comment page. Pity there isn't a mansogynistic blathering page.

Here are my opinionated blatherings; children learn important lessons and charcter traits from both their mother and their father. Yes, some well-adjusted people were raised by single parents. But to deny that a home with a committed father and mother is best for any child is simply foolish.

I will agree with Ms. Sarler that the term "rights" is often overused, but shame on the men in her life that have led her to write this article.

Phil, Vienna, Austria

One of the benefits of the national ID system will be the ability to licence breeding. Before a woman is allowed to pop a sprog she must show that she has the resources to bring it up without being a burden to the rest of us - and have then a database record to prove it.

A mass medication programme can ensure infertility until an application has been approved. At this point she can be allowed to "fall pregnant". This would be a great step towards tackling the fundamental cause of global warming - too many people.

Ray, Dartmouth,

Carol Sarler is absolutley right. The 'traditional family' is great in theory but apart from his 'man sized salary' most men are like my father are too busy earning it to contribute anything else to this myth. My own father was out earning his salary before I went to school and did get come home until I was in bed. The odd times that I did see him he was asleep. My friends who also belonged to a 'traditonal family' were packed off to school and saw very little of either parent.

Mary Teresa, York,

This is going to be a difficult one to argue on the basis of research, which probably none of us has to hand. I will say though that I resent my relevance to my family being reduced to a paycheck and the notion that money will solve the problems at hand.

I can't help wondering if there isn't a causal relationship between young children growing up without a male role model around and the general decline in society that we see. Boys growing up without a man around don't know how to deal with aggression and frustration. Telling them isn't enough, they need it lived out. The absence results in a violent, drunken culture (ring any bells anyone?).

Girls growing up without the unconditional love of a man tart themselves up to get attention and sell themselves off cheaply because of a lack of security - 'he'll only love/respect/want me if I give him what he wants' instead of knowing their own worth for who they are.

Long live the traditional family!

Mike Page, Munich, Germany

Carol Sarler's view is not only deluded, it is utterly bourgeois, and the product of junk feminism. It demands to be challenged.

Go take a stroll through the projects in any big city in the Western world, and then consider this posture. I find this type of opinion obscene the day after the Times publishes a story of a man who died defending his children from drunken hooligans. Where, indeed, were the fathers of those young yobs.

David MacKinnon, Amstelveen, Netherlands

Expect the brickbats...you've just hit the holy grail of the western world! Thanks though - best article in the paper today.

Anamika, London, UK

Carol does certainly have an axe to grind, although i agree with some of the points she has made. It's still a shame, but this New Age feminist rhetoric will not bring any benefits to mankind now or in the future, life is all about balance. I was single-handedly brought up by my Dad after his divorce, he cared for 4 boys, he did everything that a woman would do. So to say to me that a fathers role is no longer a requirement in a child's upbringing is just a farce.

ANDREW EZEA, HACKNEY, LONDON

History is histroy and it would all happen the same way if we had to start over. We are now in the 21st century - both parents have very different roles. In the UK at least, it would be extremely difficult for new families to live on a single parent's income, man or woman. Both partners have to work, both have to pitch in around the house. Carol's ancient stereotyping of the male character is quite disturbing. Male and Female influences on a child are synergistic and balancing - the quips about football tickets, etc, make me think the author has very limited male relationships, and no fond memories of a father. Shame that we have to read the outcome of someone's dysfunctional history.

Richard, Guildford, Surrey, UK

In general, this article makes good points. The only one I would take issue with is:

"Medical history is, of course, useful, but IVF clinics already record that. "

In fact they only get the medical history up till the time the sperm is donated. The offspring can have no idea whether their biological father died of heart disease or cancer a year after donating the sperm. A continued contact with the father would have at least given warning of that.

Inge Jones, London, UK

Interesting she talks about children and the traditional father role.
What happens when those children begin the transition from child to adulthood. There has always been a direct role there.

And why discount the role of the stronger person, perhaps largely absent but nevertheless providing the discipline and helping the other responsible adult to create the moral background for the family.

Carol, if you don't know now you never will and if you weren't so sure of yourself I'd pity you.

A Chapman, Ashby,

What a sad and ugly point of view this woman has. As if men were not people, had feelings, emotional needs and love for their children - just as women do - and a need for the love and support of women - as women have for men. An attitude that brings people down to economic units is fascist, sad and lonely too. It also puts an intolerable burden on children - these women invest too much in them and this does not leave children free to develop independantly.

savannah, London, UK

Unfortunately this deranged woman has no concept of bringing up boys, in fact very few women do.
There comes a point in a boys life where the molly coddling attitudes of mothers is no longer useful and they need a father figure. Someone who understands about being male and the ways males think.
In the same way that men cannot understand women, the same is true that women cant understand men, and to have boys solely brought up by women is in fact an act of cruelty to the boy. Not intentional of course, but cruel all the same.

Pete, St Albans, England

as if I wasn't feeling depressed enough

rich, alicante, spain

Ask any single mom?! Ask me! I'm a single mom. The worst thing my ex-husband ever did for my poor children was abandon them. I couldn't care less about the money. The author should listen to a child cry through the night for his dad at two years old. She should watch boys struggle to define themselves as male without a male role model in the home. She should see the daughters looking to low-class men for affirmation as they grow up, because their dads weren't there to give it at home. She should see kids struggle with their gender identity because their father, who is uniquely able to impart this aspect of a child's personality, was not on the scene.
Children need their fathers. I see that each and every day. This article leaves me fuming at the author's ignorance!

Lisa Smith, Ben Lomond, California

Five years ago I visited Japan for the first time.

As I often do on visiting a country for the first time, I purchased the Lonely Planet Guide.

Some figures they they quoted stuck in my mind: Less than one percent of children in Japan are born outside wedlock. In Japan crime is virtually non-existent, the police exist mainly to direct traffic.

I was there again only a few months ago, it's the best example that I have seen of how to run a country, everything works (I'm very well traveled), (although obviously they have problems).

Andrew Munn, Bangkok, Thailand

It is very easy to say that children don't need a father by arguing from bad examples. However having lost my father at eight years old I can say from bitter personal experience how I and my younger brother missed a good male role model as we grew up. Yes my Mum missed his "man sized" salary but much more she missed his friendship, love and support as she struggled to bring up two active boys on her own. How we missed having a Dad we could do all the "traditional" things with. Ideally children need a mum and a dad in a loving realtionship to help them learn how to relate well to the opposite sex. I know sometimes it can't happen but why make it more likely by encouraging same sex partners to have children. It might be wonderful for them but I am not convinced that it is right for the children.

Neil Gatland, Billingshurst, UK

Carol Sarler has an axe to grind. While my Dad was not perfect, he made all the difference to my and my siblings childhoods.

Arnold Ward, Weybridge, Surrey, UK

Single parent households are but a part of the whole changing condition of the human race. These conditions arise sometimes out of struggling to adapt to an ever demanding and competitive society, though sometimes it is simply an ignorant distain for established values with an insatiable appetite for power or lust. We call it Liberalism and it has taken root in governments all over the world and seeks to grow like a parasite until it is strong enough to devour its host. An America’s version of this infestation is represented in Hillary Clinton. While she may pander to the right for votes, she is plotting to tax them into obedience. In America, liberals like Hillary go a step beyond. They tell us we don’t need either parent. You just need a village, or some taxable version thereof.

Jeff Christ, Halifax, Pennsylvania - United States

The traditional family is the basic unit of civilisation. Civilisation cannot exist for long without it.

The strongest family system in the world is that of China. Maoism and the Cultural Revolution tried tried to subordinate the family to the state. Had that attempt succeeded, Chinese civilisation would have been damaged beyong repair. The attempt failed, because the Chinese family system was too strong for it. Indeed, the strength of the Chinese family also explains why the Chinese civilisation has survived longer than any other.

Our own civilisation needs the family every bit as much as does the Chinese.

Carol Sarler is deluded to believe that the traditional family is unnecessary and to try to undermine it, as she does, is empty-headed and foolish.

Herbert Thornton, Victoria, Canada

A psychiatrist who's raised 4 successful young adult children, 3 boys and a girl, think the above diatribe against fathers is nonsense.

Nevertheless today's very high divorce rates combined with a very hostile anti-male culture, and truly punitive emotional and finanical consequences for divorced fathers, make having children very risky.

Reality testing is my biz. Smart investors own diversified portfolios of shares of companies subject to strict regulations and accounting methods intended to promote financial tranparency. Only a fool bets the ranch on a single company with regulated shares.

Marriage today is like putting everything into a single unregulated stock. For men marriage under today's social conditions and anti-male laws marriage with children is a fool's erand.

The flip side is for emotionally and financially stable men life can be very pleasant remaining single. With sex a drug on the market men can have their cake and eat it too.

MARK KLEIN, M.D., OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA

"Ask any single mother what she most misses about having a man and her answer will be a man-sized salary; it is the absence of that, rather than of the man himself, that makes children go off the rails"

What an immoral and patronising view of the world. So women are only with men for their money and men are promiscuous bulls waiting to inseminate as many as possible? This is a childish and superficial take on a complex issue.

Of course fathers are important for children, especially for the shaping of their psychology. As a woman, I would hate to have to raise a child alone and would consider my children disadvantaged if they were fatherless. What an insult this author is making to the millions of men around the world who work hard to support their families and who love their children. Not wishing to be personal, but the author must have met some particularly nasty male specimens if this is her view. Real men know how to handle their responsibilities and are glad to.

MB, Edinburgh,

fast and loose with the facts, and poorly argued. "Ask any mother" ?!?!? And if i follow you then the 1 in 20 who didnt have the correct biological fathers, did have fathers per se. So what is your point?

Matthew, Dali, China

wow such an uneducated, article. im sure it didnt take much more than an hour or so to scrible down. so many points of the mark, some that had potential are left unproven, but the conclusion is unmistakably predictable; It's all the result of a homophobic society. Nice

Dan Sullivan, London,

The modern woman forgets that she doesn't need a man due to everything Men have invented to insulate her from the natural world and make all of her work easier, in many cases, out of pity for the difficulty of their labor in the home. Power steering for cars, washers, dryers, vacuum cleaners, and the Birth Control Pill were all gifts from men. The modern woman is an ingrate in one sense, hating the people who have set her free. But the moment the electricity supply is cut off, permanently, "modern women" will find themselves immediately 1000 years in the past and totally incapable of surviving.....without a man. And there will be no artificial children to keep like personal pets, smothering them with excessive and morbid, possessive "love." And Poor men and women have always loved their children, in every age. It is pretentious to claim knowledge of the feelings of others, especially those who worked 16 hours a day, 6 days a week.

victor compton, Cherbourg, France

Of course children dont need MOTHERS ..

I'm a single dad, my daughter lives with me , she has done all her life, for the last 8 years I've been a single parent .

It would be nice to have a 'mum' in the house but as my ex decided to fulfill her need for independence and to explore her lesbian sexuallity she left.

Please dont be daft, it would be better to have both parents or at least a male and female to give the child a balanced perspective.

Forget the sexuality aspects and think about the child !

Seamus, East Anglia , UK

With attitudes like this it is no wonder British children are the most neglected, abused and emotionally deprived in the West.

Children WANT and NEED fathers.
Boys need fathers as role models, a woman cannot teach a boy to be a man.
Girls need fathers for protection. They learn from their dad how to allow men to treat them. No adored daddies girl ever ends up in an abusive relationship. They would not want somebody who did not treat them the way they are used to!
Any caring father would be out with the shotgun at the first sign of trouble (mine did on several occasions!). Women are not men and cannot scare away predatory men.

Your author should bother finding some studies which show that fatherless children account for the majority of criminals, drug addicts, teenage pregnancies, abusive childhoods.
Most young boys in gangs have no father, the gang is protection. Mothers cannot provide that.

Women who do not like men should not be allowed to reproduce.Kids deserve better.

Emily, Galway, Ireland