The fact many secular schools are not as good as the religious ones is NOT an inherent property of their secularism. It is because faith schools are allowed to select their pupils and schools which are allowed to select families always do better than those which are not allowed to. There are studies which prove this. Faith schools which bar pupils on the basis of church attendance should not be funded by the taxpayer to any degree.

NL, Scottish Borders,

There are always secular schools available. That fact that they are not as good as the religious schools is an inherent property of their secularism.
As for pretend Christians, this can be solved by insisting that all children attend Sunday Mass. Ultimately only God can peer into someone's heart and see their real motives. If you attend Mass every Sunday for thirteen years solid, no human has any right to question the fact of Church membership.

Malcolm McLean, Bradford, UK

You make some good points, but try to be a bit more Christian, hmm? We live in a society that encourages our worst side, really, and is terribly effective at doing that. And often their own parents are encouraging the drive for money, popularity, and success as our culture defines it. It is the rare or more likely lucky one who avoids being pulled into that.

Becoming a parent, then, is the first point at which many people really consider bigger issues, or much beyond themselves. Is it such a bad thing that they finally do? Perhaps not, then?

Bob Shore, Buffalo, NY

"Every child should be entitled to a decent education, not just the children of religious bigots."

What nonsense. There are religious schools and there are non-religious schools. The same as at my swimming pool there are Mens changing rooms and Womens changing rooms. The Womens changing rooms are better. They were both built and are maintained with tax payers money. As a man I don't resent that my money was used for a changing room that I am not allowed to use.

Mike, London, Uk

Once again, on these faith based debates, many preconceptions that people have made their minds up on, or at least reinforced their beliefs with are found to be untrue. I doubt though that many would temper their views in light of the revalation.

Surely any child at these schools will be receiving pretty much the same funding as a child at any other school, so what is the difference?

Incidentally, the Church owned primary school that I went to is probably up to 10% Catholic, so rather than being subsidised by the public, the public are getting to use Church, rather than state property, but we do not clamour for payment.

The author does have a point with the main theme, it can be difficult to accept, but this tolerance and belief is part of the faith, part of the 'evil indoctrination' as some would put it that we have been brought up to live with. I would proffer that this sort of attitude is what makes many faith schools that bit better than they might otherwise have been.

i.e., Norwich, England

Please also do not forget that Catholic schools in particular were founded to give catholics a good education, that was denied to them by the CofE establishment at the time. They were paid for by Catholic parents & organisations, not the state. Even now, a (small) proportion of the running costs are met by the catholic community.

I can still remember at secondary school in the 1970 being forbidden from attending school assembly because it was for christians - catholics not allowed!

tim, uxbridge,

It is sad that so many people think that when someone becomes or is Christian, that they become perfect. Indeed, much of the criticism is that they are not more Christian, instead of being only human, with human faults. Christianity only means trying to be better, but also knowing everyone fails, but is forgiven if they try.
"Love God; Love your neighbor"; "If you don't have faith, act as if you did"; "If your brother falls, pick him up. You are your brother's keeper". These and many other Christian ethics are a guide, and yes, many Christians fall short. However, there is no code of ethics for athiests, and no one to tell them when they are being hypocritical or dishonest, because there is no code, agreed to by athiests, to judge them against. It is wrong for Christians to lie, becasue God said so. This is not a sin for athiests, and there is no code of ethics for all athiests that says this, and that all athiests would follow. Christians are an easy target.

Lee Hadden, sterling, us

And Christians are supposed to be 'better' than us poor apostates!!!!
Religion is just a power base for those at the top and allows them to keep the lower orders in line. If you think that the Clergy are all sweetness and light please see the "Fit For Mission" statement by the Bishop of Lancaster, the fundamentalist sentiments are there for all to see in this 60 PAGE document.
There should be no religion in any schools or public life, those who would like to do something about it should look at the National Secular Society site or the British Humanist Society

francesv , Poole, UK

My wife although not a strict church goer has been a catholic throughout her life and so why can't her child go the church school! Her family and many others have paid into the church coffers over many years and we now contribute to the school. My wife’s grandmother was persuaded, by the catholic priest, to give her family property to the church.

james, hove,

You're Christian aren't you? Forgive them.

Godfrey, London,

I don't understand Ms McDonagh's view at all. The CofE in particular is obsessed with bums on seats - the church school is a fantastic recruiting arm - and yet the established clique don't like it - just as they don't like the intrusion of a motley crew of the unchurched bringing their offspring for baptism. The real test is do the opportunistic families stay once the children are accepted by the church school and do the baptism families come back? No? Perhaps the established clique should remove the plank from its collective eye - and see the glorious welcome and forgiveness in the story of the prodigal son.

Jill, Bognor Regis,

Soe of you lot seem to be missing the point. The tale of the prodigal son is based on the notion that the son really was sorry. Individuals in this case are like sons who are only pretending tro repent for advantage.

On the other hand how do you tell?

Andrew, Edinburgh, UK

"Faith schools attempt to develop strong cultures of tolerance, open-mindedness, educational pursuit "

(*falls to floor in fits of laughter)

Lee, Manchester,

Ever since Melanie McDonagh's description of breastfeeding mothers as "the human version of dairy crest" I have found it very hard to take her seriously. For someone who professes to be so devout, she displays an astonishing lack of christian compassion. How does she know why parents re-find the church after they have children - it could be for all sorts of reasons, not just the one she so cynically assumes. Not all of us had parents who took us to church, including me. However, I take my children to church because I want them to understand what Christianity is supposed to be about (I'm not sure Melanie does), and to recognise that there are many people in the world less fortunate than them - a message their sunday school works hard to deliver to them. I don't live anywhere near a church school, so am not angling for a place in one. It is well-known that many church schools are merely operating a "selection by stealth" admissions procedure anyway.

NL, Scottish Borders,

Thank you, Jeremy, for calling all Christians - or people with any religious belief - bigots. Your openmindedness and tolerance is an astounding example of the non-believers.

Liz, Birmingham,

It is a popular misconception that the state owns Catholic schools. Our own school was paid for in full by money raised by the generation before last, and it is their generosity which gave us our own school. True, teacher's salaries are paid for by the state, and, now, much of the refurbishment, but we still have to fund a proportion of building work out of our own pockets, so, in fact, we save the state quite a lot of money overall.

And the idea that it is odd that people find their faith when school age beckons - it is just in our nature to do the best for our children, and the many Catholics who dispense with the practice of their faith whilst young and care-free are merely returning to their roots for the good of their children - and, again, their parents probably funded much of their own Catholic education so, in a way, it's their rightful inheritance.

John Anthony, London,

I have to walk past a secular school PAID FOR BY MY TAXES where they teach the scientific method and reason. If only atheists would use it, then we'd all be better off....

David E Flavell, Hexham, England

If people pretend to believe in this nonsense to get their kids into these schools then good luck to them. I wouldn't though, they may pick up bad habits. I despair of a system that encourages groups of superstitious and deluded people to educate our children. Madness.

john, LDN,

"protect them from religious nonsense."
"propaganda and indoctrination wing of an ailing and absurd death-cult"
"barricades to keep out anyone without the same narrow views"
"children themselves are too young to express a reasoned religious preference"

Faith schools attempt to develop strong cultures of tolerance, open-mindedness, educational pursuit and personal growth: academic, emotional and spiritual. All things the posters of the above seem to have difficulty with, hence the lack of atheist schools.

You all seem to spout the same popular Dawkins polemic. When are you going to think for yourselves? There is evidence aplenty , philosophically, scientifically, theologically and archaeologically for theism and Christianity, you need to look further than "The God Delusion" if you want to find the truth,

ps. Most of these school are OWNED by the church, paid with by past churchgoers money. Running costs are paid by the state.

Nathan, Inverness, UK

Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Hugh Tonks, Cambridge, UK

I and my kids have to walk past the catholic school PAID FOR BY MY TAXES and onwards for another half mile to get to their non-denominational school. It's well worth it though to protect them from religious nonsense.

Separate the church from the education system now and abolish all religious observance in schools.

Jo Hardy, edinburgh, UK

Its EVERYBODY'S tax that is used for these PUBLICLY OWNED schools. I am ashamed and appalled that I live in a country where my hard-earned tax goes to propping up the propaganda and indoctrination wing of an ailing and absurd death-cult. Get your hands out of the public purse. I am deeply offended that you think you are in some way entitled to exclude innocent children from education based on whether or not their parents believe in unsubstantiated heresay that has no reliable evidence whatsoever. Some 'christian' you are! If there were a hell you be first in line, according to your own doctrines. Christian charity my *rse! As AC Grayling said "To believe something in the face of evidence and against reason - to believe something by faith - is ignoble, irresponsible and ignorant, and merits the opposite of respect,"

Bill, Glasgow,

If the nonsense of insisting that state schools toady to the delinquent and social dysfunctional instead of focusing on provision of excellence for those who seek it, this apparent hypocrisy need not arise.

If the life chances and learning opportunities for the motivated can be effectively sabotaged by disruptive behaviour of a minority, legally enabled by school and parental discipline inadequacy, it would appear that the state education system may have been subverted to downgrade all to government promoted institutionalised ignorance.

dr venables preller, Warminster, UK

Imagine that everybody gets baptised. There wouldn't be enough schools to go around, so the children would end up going to the same schools, with the same teachers, as they do now.

David Leslie, Perth, Scotland

Sectarian Schools - what a good description. Far from wanting to spread the word of their faith or encourage by example, those who run faith schools wish only to preach to the converted. Forget "ethos" and "caring environment", this is all about setting up the barricades to keep out anyone without the same narrow views. How can we allow a system where children are chosen for by an educational establishment according to the religous beliefs, or the fascimile of them, of their parents? The children themselves are too young to express a reasoned religious preference, but this is considered irrelevant by their parents, the school, the faith leaders and the especially the government. A school which selects pupils according to any sort of criteria has lost the authority to claim to teach tolerance before it has even started.

Helen, UK,

It would be instructive for our political masters to take a look at these Church schools and ascertain why they are so much better than...what shall we call them? 'Rational sane 21st Century person' schools.

I would like to think that us atheists are rather better than all those people who cling to Bronze Age superstitions but, irritatingly, their schools are a good deal better than ours.

Fix that, Cameron, and you've got yourself a job.

Mikey, Bromley, Kent

Not a new concept - I was sent to a C of E primary school. My father was a lapsed Catholic and my mother supposedly C of E.
However, I had never seen her inside a church and never did unless it was for a wedding. She also insisted that both my sister and I married in church, something I only went along with to keep the peace.
At the age of 47 I still remember being forced along to services by the school.

sandra, alicante, spain

I cannot believe that I live in a country where my children cannot go to a state-funded school in my road - because I am a Jew.

Have a good look at yourselves - and be ashamed.

Zac Smith, London, UK

“…and let's abandon the euphemism “faith” schools, shall we…”. Now that’s the one thing we can agree on. Lets call them what they really are ‘Sectarian Schools’.

I Abbott, Poulton-le-Fylde, Lancashire

As a Christian who regularly attends our local C of E, it doesn't bother me why people start to come to church. We should welcome all who come and try to bring them to a real faith.

Martin, Lancaster, england

Every child should be entitled to a decent education, not just the children of religious bigots.

Jeremy, Bristol, UK

Spot on, M Birtwistle.

If these parents, who rediscover religion as their offspring apperoach secondary school age, are indeed doing wrong, then don't their kids need the moral influence of the Church school more than Melanie's do?

Michael W Stone BA FBIS, Peterborough, UK

Jesus wasn't baptised until the age of 30. No wonder his parents didn't manage to get him into a good school...

Alys, Colchester, UK

As an atheist it would seriously grate on me to have to do something like this to get my child into a decent school, but needs must and if we have to fight against a system which discriminates against us in such a blatant way because of our lack of religious beliefs and that we have not indoctinated our young children into believing that these stories are god-given truth (the "sins" of the fathers) then so be it.

The days are gone where we can put up signs saying 'no blacks, no jews and no homosexuals'. Why are we the last whipping boys?

Chris Jackson, London,

there's another sector of lapsed or dormant catholics that Melanie hasn't attacked yet so let's root them out now......what about the ones who repent their sins( of omission or whatever ),on their deathbeds.....yes, lives mispent in voracious enjoyment and hedonistic pleasures then at the nth hour REPENTING AND ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS ( meanwhile we have been dutifuly sporting our hair shirts, sackcloths, ashes and other very inconvenient and uncomfortable paraphanlia...... but nobody thanks us nor cares a fig ) bah.............humbugs

C Hamer, birmingham, uk

If any nuns or heads start asking for proof of baptism within a week of birth, hand them a bible and ask them to find any one verse that states that infant baptism is a requirement of being a christian!
Most biblical baptisms took place when people accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour (i.e. understood what they were doing and made the decision for themselves).
But if as a parent, you do 'stretch the truth' to get your children into a faith school, please don't start complaining and getting offended if the teachers mention things like God and Jesus and lead prayers occasionally! Most of the Christian parents actually choose the school because they want those aspects of christian life to be integral to the childs learning and development. If you are worried the school might 'indoctrinate' your child, then look at it this way, there are far worse things a teenager could do than 'go a bit Christian'!

M Birtwistle, Coventry, West Midlands

Erm.. as Christians, are we not supposed to be welcoming and witnessing to these 'unbelievers'? 'The well don't need a doctor' and all that. I became a devoted christian through some christian friends I made at the local faith school and have never looked back - in fact I'm in the process of starting up a local community church with some other christian friends. Lets focus on the potential of the CHILD rather than the antics of the parents! After all isn't that what school is all about?

M Birtwistle, Coventry, West Midlands

Oh poor you! All that churchgoing seems to have knocked the Christian compassion out of you. Try reading that parable you quote so readily and try to work out what Jesus was trying to get through to you.

Thank you for reminding why why I left the UK.

mark, lima, peru

Spot-on Melanie. Didn't know there were any nuns left - good to hear it - they put "manners" on many of us!

Una, Muscat, Oman

As Roman Catholics are denied the right to birth control by their Church, it seems eminently reasonable that once the inevitable children ensue they should be entitled to a Roman Catholic education.
And God forbid that I should sit in judgement on my peers.
Happy Easter, Melanie.

Furriskey, Singapore,