Melanie McDonagh
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You have to hand it to Phil Woolas, the Immigration Minister: he's good value for money. He doesn't realise that there are some subjects that ministers should leave well alone. There's a reason why he's not on Question Time tonight. Immediately after being appointed, he opened up the Pandora's box that is the Government's immigration policy.
In the same interview with The Times he declared that the Church of England would end up being disestablished: “Disestablishment - I think it will happen... once you open debate about the House of Lords you open up debate about the make-up... It will probably take 50 years but a modern society is multifaith.” Hang on, Mr W. The assumption that a multifaith society can't accommodate a privileged position for one religion, Anglicanism, can't be taken as given.
The case for an established Church, like monarchy, tends to be inchoate, being concerned with one of those parts of the constitution that works well without anyone quite knowing why. Admittedly, it worked better 50 years ago, when being CoE was nearly everyone's default religious position. But there's still a case for antidisestablishmentarianism.
Actually, leaders of minority faiths tend to be rather favourable to the CoE position, on the ground that its bishops provide a religious take on various issues with which they usually agree. And a reformed House of Lords could accommodate a few well-behaved bishops.
But the reason, I think, why most people don't mind establishment, insofar as they think about it at all, is that it's a reassuring reminder that there is some sort of moral touchstone within the political structure. It allows non-churchgoers to identify themselves, at several removes, with Christianity in its most benign and unthreatening form.
The presence of the Church within the constitution is a bit like having churches in towns and villages - something most people like to have around, even if they don't frequent them. What Rowan Williams calls the thousand silken threads that bind Church and State appeal to the kind of people who begin sentences with: “I'm not religious, but...”
When Anglican bishops say that the Church's position puts it in a relationship of service to the nation, they are right. A report last year by the Von Hügel Institute demonstrated that the value on the charitable work undertaken by the CoE would cost the State hundreds of millions of pounds. And that bears out a Home Office citizenship survey showing that the religiously observant are 48 per cent more likely than the uncommitted to engage in regular voluntary work. The CoE is good for England. Leave it alone.
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When I start a proper newspaper, you will be top of the list to being invited to work for it. You are a rarity, an intelligent person working for a newspaper. I am sick of being insulted with the drivel that i usually read.. It is difficult for anyone to be informed!.
ushi, Llanelli, UK
The Established Church was the midwife to the emerging British constitution, existing before there was a single English monarchy in Saxon times. The current dislocation between church and state in Britain and Europe is a fruit of the trauma of two world wars, which began in Europe. It will not last.
Keith Johnson, West Wratting,
A reformed house of lords moves closer to a democracy, including the separation of church and state and the legislative and judicial branches of government.
Out with the bishops and out with the law lords!!
Jon, London,
"The House of Lords still needs a few well-behaved bishops" , indeed it does . If only to help counter the few bishop bashers already there .
Henry Fowler is correct about mankind not needing religion as an excuse for harm. However it appears to have been the most convenient for many centuries .
Benzo, Nr Chelmsford,
Religious leader from whatever religion should not be part of the House of Lords. Let them preach their mumbo jumbo to those that want to listen, but they must not have a voice in the running of the state.
Charlie, Munich,
We don't need religious laws, or religious lawmakers.
If you can't give a sensible reasoned argument for a law instead of only doing it because your imaginary friend in the sky wants it, then shut up & let the grownups talk.
Don't try to impose it on those who don't share your superstition.
Jon, Winchester,
Why should the CofE be disestablished because followers of other faiths have migrated here? Everyone is free to follow their own faith so what is the problem? It's the usual liberal-left desire to eradicate the culture of the UK. We are already living in the resultant mess their achievements.
Lin, London, England
A good human being is worth a million well behaved bishops.
More of the former please.
Kazuki, Tokyo, Japan
Leon, Cornwall, wrote: "...religion...has caused more death, pain and suffering than anything else I know." Then you know very little, not least of mankind, which has never needed religion as an excuse to do harm to others. Twentieth century genocide and slaughter are testaments to atheism.
Henry Fowler, Northampton,
"Establishment is institutionalised religious discrimination"
Precisely why we should support it! "Discriminating" between options is a good thing not a bad thing. CofE is the least worst option compared to the rise of fundamentalist pressure groups that *could* be the result of disestablishment.
Daniel heslop, Bournemouth, UK
For goodness sake, why does the world persevere with religion of any kind,it has caused more death,pain,and suffering than anything else i know.If everyone was to keep his or her own God private to themselves we would all get along much better.You don`t have to belong to a religion to do good deeds!
Leon Wagstaff, Cornwall, UK
The CoE is the established church of England, not of the UK. It's position is thus doubly discriminatory - not only are its privileges denied to other religions in England, they are denied to ALL religions in Scotland, Wales and NI. United Kingdom? Feh.
Andrew Gallagher, Galway,
I'm a Secularist, but even I can see that the bog standard CofE is about as benign a religion as we could hope for. To open up the Monarchy to the far more fanatical, prejudical and hardline religions such as Catholicism or Islam is a big mistake!
Dave , Stoke, UK
The Church of England represents England only (and not Wales, Scotland and N Ireland). Why should only English bishops get to sit in the House of Lords?
Anyway, there are more Catholics than Anglicans now.
ben foster, wokingham,
Very poor arguments. The bishops provide a religious touchstone, not a moral one - morality and religion are not the same. And the political establishment of the Church has no bearing whatsoever on Christians volunteering for charity work.
Also, what does Melanie think the word "inchoate" means?
Liam, Stoke, UK
"And that bears out a Home Office citizenship survey showing that the religiously observant are 48 per cent more likely than the uncommitted to engage in regular voluntary work."
religiously observant = Church of England and only Church of England? I don't think so. The CoE is a dying sect.
Rob, London,
It's impossible to answer this in 300 characters. Inchoate? Perhaps you mean "ineffable?" And why is establishment necessary for charitable work?
Establishment is institutionalised religious discrimination. The state should be religiously neutral, ie secular.
Norman, Anstruther, United Kingdom