Faith schools are functioning as crypto apartheid. It is white middle class flight masquerading as religion. The CofE schools are filling up with native English speaking kids from professional homes and surprise, surprise they are producing better results. People claim it is the religious ethos but obviously it is home environment and genes. If you want to accelerate divisions in society there is no better way and it is a LABOUR government encouraging it. The politics of the madhouse.

Tony Akkermans

Tony Akkermans, Craven Arms, Shrops

I have nothing against faith schools as long as they don't teach hatred. I believe that the Catholic Church enjoys all the attention it gets from parents that have suddenly developed a religious zeal just as their little darling is going through the admissions process. In the final analysis it is an example hypocrisy brought about by middle class families that will do almost anything to achieve their objectives and ensure success of the blood line.

Rather than attacking successful religious schools we should be doing something about the sink schools of which there are still far too many. These schools need radical surgery or as a last resort, they should be closed down. These are the real disaster of the British state education system.

Graham, St. Albans, uk

I just happen to be a teacher in one of India Knights 'dreaded' state schools full of absolutely wonderful 'working class' children. My children attend our school and I could not be happier with their education - I just hope they don't grow up with pre-conceived ideas about other people!

Liz, Blaenau Gwent, Wales

School is about education. Faith is about blind belief despite any and all contradicting evidence or lack of evidence. It is not the way to encourage our children to think sensibly.

If you want to indoctrinate your children into your religion rather than let them reach their own conclusions based on rational thought, that is the role of the church. Schools are meant to educate them, and including religion will only confuse them.

School is about facts and learning how to think and reason, and so has NOTHING to do with religion.

Jon, Winchester, UK

I went to Catholic primary and secondary schools. I assure you all my fellow students came out as tolerant and open-minded individuals fully accepting of other faiths. They were not indoctrinated. We had Mass and lots of assemblies and said lots of prayers but these went more towards fostering a sense of community among the students. I accept that unavoidably faith schools are going to discriminate (though my secondary school did have to take a small proportion of non-Catholic students) on the basis of religion; however arguments that faith schools create division or brainwash their students just don't hold up.

Laura, London,

We need to understand that "faith schools" are schools which belong to a particular religious denomination. The term does not mean that state schools are secular. The UK is constitutionally a Christian monarchy, not a secular republic. Under the terms of the 1944 Education Act, there should be a daily act of Christian worship in state schools, which should also teach the basics of the Christian faith. This Act has not been repealed.

Set against that, we need to come to grips with the fact that the internet is creating a new, transatlantic, English-speaking, online community, which sees the American Constitution as the model for us all. The next coronation is going to be very different from the last one, and it's time we started preparing for the political and social problems which will attend it - in particular, the meaning of the terms "state school" and "faith school". I myself do not want to see a separation of the two, but I am aware that the 1944 Education Act is now in danger

Edmund Burke, Kingston upon Thames, England

"What I find more difficult to comprehend is how religious bodies are comfortable with not only condoning said hypocrisy, but encouraging it. I’m no theologian - although I am, as it happens, fairly religious - but even a lay person can see with alarming clarity that encouraging people to be hypocrites is not what you’d call Christian. It is, in fact, a sin - according to all faiths."

This is an insight into the workings of the religious mind. Claiming to believe something that you know truthfully in your mind is nonsense to gain entry for your children into a better school is one thing. How many relgious people, if they closely examined the underlying motivation of their faith, would realise that they are going through the motions of claiming belief in order to gain entry into heaven. Faking belief is not the same as belief and fear of death does not make heaven a reality.
The participation of church authorities in both these hypocrisies follows the same pattern.

Rob, Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk

Very good, twelve stars.

No name, No place,

The reason certain schools succeed and fail is purely to do with the children attending. The middle class have children that have better social skilled (nurture) and often genetically superior (nature), Working class on the whole have poor social skilled and genetically inferior. You can tell them apart physically in an instance. It passes on from generation. Its the real way of the world, not some desired utilitarianism.

toby chislett, London,

"Make parents who don’t fancy a faith school send their children to the school that is closest to home with no loopholes and no wriggling room. That way you lose middle-class, or indeed working-class, ghettos."

Try saying that when the local comprehensive offers up your son to a gang culture where education is the exception, violence is the norm and aspirations are confined to 15 mins of fame on Big Brother - and try doing that when with a few cuts here and there and a more modest annual holiday you can send that same son to a school with other nice young boys who are polite to each other, read books and aspire to go on to a decent University and career.

Its not a crime to want the best for your children - though its clear that some in society and Govt believe it to be so.

Mark, Berkhamsted, UK

And what about genuine christians? We do exist. Are we no longer allowed to send our kids to schools that reflect our faith?

It sounds like some people want our schools closed down just because they have become successful and atheists think this is unfair.

I know what I think about that.

Ben, Lytham,

"Here's a school that does well- let's close it" isn't much of an educational policy. Why do faith schools succeed? Not because of class sizes, which are often bigger in some Catholic primary schools. It's because the children in a religious school are taught that there is meaning in human life, that human beings matter, and that the ways to their flourishing do not lie simply along the lines of being able to earn more money than other people or to pass more public exams. Religious schools- at least the one that I went to and the ones my children have attended- teach that learning builds a relationship, with other people and with God, who is not only the reason why we all exist in the first place but the reason and the model for such a thing as parental love. This tends to make for happier, better adjusted children. Of course other parents want this. If you don't want religion to be taught, say so, but don't pretend you're being democratic. Now that's hypocrisy.

cecilia hatt, Surbiton, uk

"There is only one way forward when it comes to education. Keep the faith schools but dump the specific entry criteria..."

No, the way forward is to dump the faith schools. Even if you get rid of the discriminatory entry criteria, segregating children in accordance with their parents' faith creates apartheid. No amount of preaching 'tolerance of other faiths' is a substitute for growing up alongside peers of other faiths (or none).

Christopher Wakling, Bristol,

surely we need to understand why faith schools offer a better education and environment - something largely to do with size I imagine - and apply that to more schools so that there is not this fight over places

Samantha, London,

i was the Head of a State Primary School for sixteen years in the seventies and eighties. Can you imagine what would have happened if I had refused admission to the children of Roman Catholics and communicant members of the Church of England?

Peter Martin, Welwyn, Herts

I hope your daughter manages to find a place in a school locally which supports her special needs.
Re faith schools, we attended the local C of E church for several years to enable my son to be eligible to join the local C of E primary school around the corner from our house. This was in a middle-class Birmingham suburb. Everyone in our neighbourhood aspired to the same since this school fed after the eleven-plus into the first-rate free grammar schools. Did we feel badly, no. He got a religious education along with a place at the school his friends attended.

Antonia Davis, Oxford,

I was brought up in Spain and remember going to sunday school when all i wanted to do was sleep, then I had to learn by heart all those concepts in the bible, we had debates on abortion, alcohol,blah, blah. Honestly I rather instead of learning religion we were taught a foreign language, or painting or cookig and then maybe once a week a class where you discover about religion (any religion)and eventually find out what it means for you. Faith schools are thankfully dissapearing in Spain and they should do the same in England.

ana, london,

Faith is the opposite of knowledge.
Faith is simply believing in something (or someone) which cannot be proven. It is absurdly illogical and is designed to ensure the continuation of religion.
All faith schools should be abolished, be they C of E, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim.

Robin Bather, Metepec, Mexico

The whole concept of faith schools should be abandoned. They had a lot to answer for in Northern Ireland and I just cannot understand any democratic government, in this modern society, allowing the concept to continue.We would be much better off without them. Even in Spain, a mainly Catholic country as such, have dispensed with all relious teachings and all schools are 'non faith' The catholic church are not happy of course, but so be it. The UK should take note.
John - Malaga, Spain/

John, Malaga, Spain

As India says, it is repulsive hypocrisy. The religious people commenting here might wish to consider what their Lord would have thought about people pretending to believe in something so as to gain an educational advantage over others. In this context, where is A.N.'s "emphasis on morals"?
As to faith schools "always being better because they intrinsically offer more through the religious dimension", it seems to me that a) they aren't always better, academically or otherwise b) some faith schools may do well academically because at some point in the past they established a tradition of doing well and that would attract parents who support and assist their children...c) the "religious dimension" is the opposite of what education should be about. Education and learning should be about open mindedness, not about indoctrination and anti scientific creation myths.

MB, Epsom,

A good school is your local school. Schools are what make communities work. Any selective criteria works against the best interests of the community and the children. It is much easier to feel responsibility for kids on the street when you have watched them grow up and been part of their lives. Once you start shipping your children out to schools away from where they live, local kids become threatening strangers instead of neighbours.

Helen Greaves, London, London

To Ben in Camberwell - the key word in your comment is 'unborn'. You will feel totally differently when he is of school age.

What to do?, Stockport, Cheshire

Although a lot of people want to believe in having an excellent state education system it is not working, Throughout my daughters' 8 years of education in state primary school we were hoping, waiting and believing that the local comprehensive would surely become the kind of school (academically and socially) we wanted her to go to (this has nothing to do with religion).
Now having come to the final year of primary we do not feel that we can wait any longer as the next five years are crucual in their education. We are now hoping that she can sit, pass and get a place in a neighbouring authority state grammar. I feel that a lot of the problems would be solved if we brought back grammar schools - faith ones or not.

What to do?, Stockport, Cheshire

The religious indoctrination of children is child abuse - full stop. I would far rather send my unborn son to my local comprehensive in Camberwell (2007: 1 teenage gun murder, 5 stabbings on school premises) than suffer for him to be emotionally warped and scarred for life by religious doctrine. It is monstrous to suggest that any person enlightened enough to have escaped the horrific psychological bonds of religion would consciously decide to expose their child to the poison. Those that do so are not fit to be parents.

Ben, Camberwell, London,

I went to Catholic schools from 5 - 18 and I was made to go to church by my mother until I moved out of home. I then stopped going to church because I resented been told what I should believe in and the hypocrisy. I don't see what is so great about catholic schools. We didn't learn about any other religions and I lived in a area where there was a lot of diversity and their way had to be right! They even taught a class of 15 year olds the rhythum method! I think its appalling that parents make their children listen to and have forced down their throats rubbish that they don't even believe in!

Clare , Manchester,

I went to a catholic primary school. I don't remember ever being induced to believe Catherine Aragon was a slut, or anything of the sort. Neither was it hell fire and brim stone from 9 in the morning till home time. It was an excellent school, heavily grounded with morals and respect, and I think this is really what parents are looking for when they choose a faith school. What a shame that as a nation we seem unable to instill morals into children without a religious backing. I firmly believe this is what is causing so many problems in our society.

Clare, solihull, england

All schools are faith schools. They all have some ethos which is not based on evidence, but belief. Some of the faiths are secular and others are religious. We should ask: why do parents who are not religious want to send their children to religious schools? Because they think they are better schools. Why do they think this? Most likely because they are better. Why are they better?

Frank Upton, Solihull,

"Of course all schools would be vaguely decent if middle-class parents simply sent their children to the nearest state school"

Dream on, India.

Ian, London, UK

"Of course all schools would be vaguely decent if middle-class parents simply sent their children to the nearest state school."

Does this mean that a school cannot be 'decent' if there are no middle-class children in it?

Tim Footman, S London,

I don't know an awful lot about catholic schools in the UK but I can assure you that in the Catholic orthodoxy non- catholics are not considered "filthy sinners who will never go to heaven"( at least since pope John XXIII). Please take time to get to know something before you make judgements.

claudia, Italy,

Don't they have special schools where you live, India? My son has gone to one since he was 5 (he's now 17) and it has been wonderful. He has blossomed there and has become a young man to be very proud of, despite his severe learning difficulties and autism. I wouldn;t have had him in ANY mainstream school, no matter how religious or middle-class. The staff there are not trained to deal with special needs and the facilities are not right for SN children.

Jenny Latimer, Dundee,

"they want secular schools where children are neither advantaged nor disadvantaged based soley on the actual or contrived supersticious beliefs of their parents"
We already have those - they're called "schools".

Sally R., London, UK

Well said India!! Bravo!

When we were in the UK my son's catchment school wasn't the most well suited for children with special needs (my son has autism as his main dx). We were told that the best schol suited for him was the C of E school.. although it was tough to get into and there were "religeous requirements" so we were given the second best option. (which as it turned out ended up punishing him for his autistic behavior and we left the UK to come back to the US where my son wouldn't be punished for something he couldn't help). It is utter madness that sometimes the best suited schools for our children are the unobtainable ones. Parents of children with special needs have it especially tough as well because good SEN schools are far and few between it seems. Ah the joys of the postcode lottery strike yet again!

M. Hill, Chattanooga, TN, USA

I was a bit of a hypcrite once as a kid. I wanted to go on the Sunday School trip to Littlehampton, thinking we would get a ride on the big dipper (we didn't), so I joined up for a couple of months.

Thing was: I was bored senseless, so once I'd been I gave up.

At least I learned that bribery may work in the short-term but it doesn't engender true faith, eh?

Rhys Jaggar, Leeds,

The whole point of a Church is to benefit non-members. Jesus told his followers "Go into all the world" so it is totally reasonable for churches to want to have non-members in their pews so they can hear a message they are not familiar with. If, after 6 months (or whatever the qualifying period is) they have not heard, understood and responded to the Gospel - either way - then the Church is not doing a very good job of evangelism - telling the Good News.

Anne, Milton Keynes, UK

A.N London:
You demonstrate the hypocrisy that is the subject of India's excellent article better than India does herself. Your last line "I don't care. I just hope your kids don't get stabbed" says it all, and makes me think that actually you wouldn't care if someone else's child got stabbed.

Don't worry though, you and your children will probably go to heaven - stab free.

Matthew, New York City, USA

The only reason there are faith schools is that their churches are an irrelevancy because their philosophies are superstition nonsense. If they did not have schools to capture children & their parents then churches would disappear. So everyone agrees to falsely and hypocritically lie about their faith just to get a school place. Such a basis for a religion.

Scott, London,

The pathetic social ladder-climbing behaviour described in your article, frighteningly, applies across international borders. The last paragraph of your story resonates particularly with me. I sent my child to a local public school in Australia which was very small and where the majority of parents were spectacularly well off compared to the norm.
Ironically, Australians like to see themselves as being down to earth, favouring the underdog, not at all class-conscious, etc. This attitude goes down the drain at warp speed when it comes to sending their children to school.
Also, I would be interested to know what constitutes "all her friends" in the article. Are you sure you don't mean "people that matter" to the child's mother/parents??? At that age, you would do your child a huge favour to ALLOW him/her to mix with and make friends of his/her own, rather than those who have been carefully selected by his/her parent(s). Kids make friends fast. I hope you have the guts to follow thru.

Good Luck, Sydney, Australia

Q. If Atheists want Atheist schools then the Atheist 'community' should get their act together and set up their own … EQ.
Two things. Atheists don’t want Atheist Schools any more than they want Sectarian Schools … what you euphamistically call Faith Schools … they want secular schools where children are neither advantaged nor disadvantaged based soley on the actual or contrived supersticious beliefs of their parents. Children are not Christian, Hindu, Sihk, Muslim, Jew etc they are simply born into families where one or both parents subscribe to a faith. They have been given no choice whatsoever and in some of those faiths one of the first things they are taught is that they will be severely punished if they ever have the audacity to think for themselves and abandon that imposed doctrine.
Second point; the state education system does not allow atheist schools. Even in Community Schools RE is compulsory … and at least 50% of that must be Christian based … and collective worship assemblies are inescapable.

I Abbott, Blackpool, Lancashire

Guess who would suffer if there was no churchgoing requirement for popular church schools? The children of genuine church goers who might not get a place. Children of vicars and churchgoing children in general can be targeted by bullies in non-church schools. I don't think India's 'Horrible Histories' version of Anglicanism & Catholicism corresponds to what is taught in church schools. Nor do I think parents would send their children to church schools if they thought they would be brainwashed there.

rev r parrish, barry, wales

I find it insufferable that my taxes go to support non-faith schools!!
I mean, the strong values, emphasis on family and morals, and sense of conscience that atheistic schools provide must be truly outstanding for all these people to keep objecting to their taxes going to faith schools! Complete joke. Faith schools will always be better, even if not academically, because they intrinsically offer more through the religious dimension. Atheists do not, or refuse to, acknowledge this. It's their loss. Send your kids to crappy non-God schools - I don't care. I just hope your kids don't get stabbed!

A.N, London, UK

If you want the best education for your child then there are often catches. Why be a hypocrite and fiddle the facts to get your child into, for example, a Catholic School where over the last few hundred years, that faith has planned as all faiths do to have the advantages that the members of that faith have financed to ensure that it survives with the common beliefs. My parents were uneducated, but they made sure that my brother and I worked hard at the state primary school until I passed the 11+ and went to a grammar school, where they continued to encourage me to work hard to have benefits that they had not had. They also sent us as young children to Sunday School (C of E) where we learnt how to live in a decent society and to obey the common laws to become good citizens. The parents of the children who attend faith schools also pay taxes and are entitled to the benefits from them so get real, not jealous.
Children will decide anyway if they wish to keep that faith.

B J Deller, Marbella, Spain

Speaking as someone whose education came by virtue of schools set up by vaious denominations in the aftermath of slavery (I was born in the UK but educated in the Caribbean), I cannot really criticise this article.

Religious environments were used to socialise children (i.e. teach them basic manners) whatever their leaning. Comprehensive schools are too big and too lacking in focus to achieve the same goal even if the academic results are the same.

It is not fair to expect the minority of middle class kids, socialised by their parents (who have the money to do it) to then socialise the majority of kids whose parents lack the means or the skills to work effectively with their offspring. So let them pay to attend public schools or go to the posh comps.

Most poor parents would love to give their kids a good education and the life chances it entails. Since they cannot afford to buy it either directly or indirectly, give them priority places in faith schools believers or not.

MS, London, England

Secular schools with children from all backgrounds sitting side by side does not equal "atheist schools"

John Ericsson, Blackpool, Lancs

The true nonsense of choice of school in urban areas seems to me (as a country dweller, where with one local school per village, "choice" makes no real sense) to be the continual criss-crossing of parents and their offspring in cars. They are clogging up the roads, increasing congestion / carbon footprint / danger to pedestrians etc. whilst the facilities which they should be using are almost always in walking distance. Keep choice if you must, but heavily penalise any familiy who send a child to a school which isn't their closest one. Put these funds DIRECTLY back into that closest school, to improve its facilities. Then maybe balance can be restored and the travelling cease.

Alex West, Warwickshire,

why faith school at all?
my children started in convents, as i did, then 6 years in france,
followed by the balance som e 8 in holland, the last in non religous schools.
education excellent,and no nonsense to achieve places, and more importantly complete open minded adults.
the uk should follow those two other countries example and ban religion in schools

john haydon rowe, javea,

And what if I find it insufferable that my taxes go to support non-faith schools? Is it the function of government to limit freedoms? If atheists want atheist schools then the atheist 'community' should get their act together and set up their own. That is, if they can tolerate each other long enough to set up a community.

RW, London,

Actually if you truly believe in the comprehensive system then the only way to achieve equally good schools is to ensure that there is an identical banded mix re. SATs results and neihbourhood/residence in every school necessitating the bussing/transporting of pupils cross-borough in order to avoid social/cultural ghettoes. However, this would be a big vote loser for NewLab in the same way that the Tories would have lost votes had they returned to grammar schools nationally during the last 30 years. Why? Well in the case of NewLab middle class house owners would be outraged that they could no longer "buy" the best comprehensives for their children and the Tories would have lost a mass of votes because middle class people would no longer have had a right to send their dim offspring to a quasi-grammar school in a nice leafy neighbourhood without the impediment of an entrance exam . Much hypocrisy in this country methinks.

Fatty Asquith, Darlington, UK

Would this article have been written if your daughter had got in?

Jonathan, London,

It is the fate of man to become what he is pretending to be. So faith schools are maybe onto something.

Malcolm McLean, Bradford, UK

I find it unsufferable that my taxes go to support faith schools - at the expense of my childrens education. It is just plain intolerable that the church supports this vile hypocrisy.

Arnold Ward, Weybridge, Surrey, UK