referring to Marie.
whats gone wrong in this country is that people believe such nonsense as we are born of apes or that any man who appreciates a woman who preens and looks after herself is a 'hidden Pedophile'. How rediculous!
Not only is it ok to make the best of appearance, if you have a partner (or are hoping to get one!) it is essential and dare i go as far to say a responsibility. I'm sure my wife is happier that i keep in shape and find her attractive too than us both sitting on our overgrown pubics secretly thinking how much like apes we look!

Paul Marshall, Yorkshire, UK

Female, British, 46. Have shaved or clipped for the last 15 years. Why? It just feels so much nicer, is less abrasive and is more hygienic. It also reveals the beauty that is beneath; very exciting and sexy. Personally I like to keep a suggestion of hair on the mons, precisely to distinguish it from a childlike hairlessness. Prefer that guys shave or clip theirs too. Everyone I know who has ever done this prefers how it feels and would never go back. Would continue to do it even if no one ever saw it.

Isadora, London,

Something is going terribly wrong in this country.We grow pubic hair,armpits bse they are a natural protection....I think men who like waxes women,are hidden pedophiles...or men with problem when it comes to mature sexuality(mutual exchange).I dont like a men shaved bse it 's like if they were in a gay movie!
We usually dont like hair,bse they remind us too much of our common ANCESTRY THE APES!!!!You know the theory of evolution,this might explain why Mulsim have to shave ,as they don't recognize this theory....(at least from what I know).

Marie, London, UK

Great article. Only quibble - "hijabi" second and third generation Britons not giving an inch while benefitting from the secular society in which they were born and brought up is not just a "cultural" issue. Its a political one, and ridiculous precisely for that reason. The women who sue for right to practice law or banking while covering their faces would not have any such opportunities in "Islamic" countries such as Saudi Arabia or Talibani Afghanistan.

Besides, I wouldn't accept a lawyer whose face I couldn't see, or indeed use a woman hairdresser whose hairstyle I didn't particularly care about (that includes hijab covered or indeed purple/pink punk styles). Of course a bald, male hairdresser would be okay if I could see a few of his clients BEFORE letting his scissors anywhere close to my hair. Lol

Anamika, London, UK

One of the problems for a couple of decades now with societies probably mostly around the world & irrespective of faiths, is that body hair is geneally considered as disgusting and not acceptable. Naturally very hairy people then perceive themselves to be unattractive and social outcasts. In fact to be overweight is more acceptable than hairy but in most cases of overweightness, good diet & exercise can reduce - not even laser treatment reduces hairiness over time (by the way, I think its good that generally big & beautiful is accepted in society other than, of course, that evil annoying poo lady's world). Anyway to sum it all up, to help keep national peace and avoid all the stares and comments, I have shunned the typically outdoor lifestyle of my native Australia and am happily covered up in chilly Scotland.

In reality, when one has other attractive assets, it is only the very image conscious that doesn't like hairiness on an individual basis.

Gorilla man, Highlands, Scotland

Typical Muslim bashing article. Non-Muslims pretend to do exactly the opposite of what Muslims do. If it was against Islam to shave private parts...I bet non-Muslims would have posted comments accusing us of being unhygienic and/or lazy. Or someting to ridicule us. The answer to why people should shave "unexposed" hairs, is because it's unhygienic. It could attract lice, smell, soak urine and hair could grow inwards not good for awkward areas. Good thing Muslims always use water... therefore, it is particuarly advisable for those who use tissue paper.

Mohammed, London, UK

Carmine wonders how many of the men who like a "shaven haven" would agree to having their back, crack & especially sack waxed, so that it would be nice and smooth for the laydees? Well many are having this done as was suggested in the article. Plus some women don't want a smooth guy, as to them it's not masculine (one woman here described it as defeminized) or they just prefer hairy.

Carmine says "It's funny, isn't it, that the pornification / paedification of society extends almost solely to women, for the pleasure of men with an unsavoury fixation on youth." Well it's the porn industry that now has smooth men which has filtered through to our society's current trend for men to be smooth - as was suggested in the article again. How many male models do we see with hairy chests?

How come men wanting smooth women is "an unsavoury fixation on youth." yet Carmine is suggesting that some ladyees would like a nice & smooth man? How come women who like smooth men are not accused of anything

Najma, London,

All religions are manipulative and devicive in order to control your mind and free thinking.
Advertising and consumerism is about getting you to spend money on stuff you don't need.
Why is it that what is supposed to be cool- (fags drugs booze tatts!) end in tears.
Be aware that someone, somewhere wants you to do something that will make them rich or feel better.

Frank, London, UK

I don't like to see a woman with a shaved pubic area.
I find it unattractive & boring looking.
My experience has been been that many women end up developing a severe case of ingrown hair in the region which makes it look and feel like sandpaper.
While, of course, every woman is free to make her choice, I feel that too many women are doing it because it is the trendy thing to do, and not because it is a preference, much like the now seemingly obligatory tattoo on the tailbone, another major turnoff. Here in California it is almost impossible to find a woman under the age of 30 who does not shave or have a tailbone tattoo. I think fashion mags are partially responsible for promoting this view, as "You're not cool unless you do this" type of thing.
For those who equate armpits with the pubic area, I think that's a foolish comparison, since the sexual allure of one is nowhere near the allure of the other. And for some, but certainly not all, it is a way to satisfy repressed paedophilia.

VV, Fairfax, USA

I note a fair amount of comments making accusations of those who prefer a shaven haven as a lusting for pre-pubescent children? Many of those quoting that 'Hairy/Au naturel' is a sign of a mature readiness for sexual engagement. My preference is for smooth, for both partners at that but it's just a preference, nothing more, to suggest it's some kind of paedophilic tendency is nothing les than offensive and makes these people no better than racists & bigots.
Lets flip the coin. Using this 'hair for readiness' theory of some of the pro-bush brigade & based on when most people have acquired a 'full bush', thus the full bush brigade are the real perverts, I for one most certainly do not consider 12-14 year old juveniles as 'Ready', but as most of these kids have a full display do our 'Smooth is paedo' supporters think these children are ready? No, thought not, so why am I a potential perv' because I prefer smooth? It's that same blinkered view that starts wars!! Just ask President 'BUSH'

Dave, Oldham, UK

Interesting topic - very provocative, but sad that it turned into another muslim-bashing at the end. You can't push for people to go au naturel or choose to have their pubic hair as they wish and then denounce someone trying to do the same thing with their head hair! As an aetheist woman married to a catholic man and happily in love we choose to do what pleases eachother. Funny how it's the media in various forms which seems to dictate what's socially acceptable - anyone seen the Lemon Source shower gel TV ad, it really pushes the girl/woman boundaries...

Shouldn't we be going for for acceptance of the differences between men/women, adults/children and the whole gamut of religions on this earth? Anyway, so long as we're not harming anyone else, why worry?

Row, Gold Coast, Oz

This suggestion that a bald pubic region, and lusting for it, is in some way paedophilic is illogical.

Most women in this country shave their armpits, and hairy armpits are regarded by most men and women as unattractive. And yet hairy armpits are associated with post-pubertal life, and smooth hairless armpits emulate the child. Why then do we never hear anyone suggesting that society's yearning for denuded axillae is driven by paedophilic yearnings??

If you don't like a clean shaven pubic region, that's fine, but please don't suggest that those who do harbor paedophilic tendencies - it's incredibly offensive, illogical and not based on any evidence that I have seen.

Oliver , London,

I'm a mulsim male but these statements are rubbish:

"all agree women's hair should never be so short she might be mistaken for a man" - not true, it doesn't have anyhting to do with making you a better person or helping society which the rules in the Quran are about.

"someone who believes that merely sipping coffee in the salon, with your head publicly revealed, is immodest, even obscene" - the reason why women cover up is so they attrack less stares and disrespectful actions of men. I think this statement in the article implies that the muslim lady may take some action becuase of the differences in practises... if they were a god fearing muslim ... they wouldn't.

Mohammed S, London,

This article is rot - I am a Muslim woman , and I have never been taught to rid myself of bodily hair in all my 31 years on this earth! Stop stereotyping people.

Niloufer, Sydney, Australia

I dont really mind either way.. but I shave my junk every once in a while. Just did it yesterday. Itchy right now.. but that goes away in a day or 2.

Chris, Oregon, US

If you're going to shave the entire body, then surely the place to start is the most part, namely the head. And yes, some gays do take things to this logical conclusion, so that the whole body looks like a penis (the upper part of which is one of the few spots on a man's body which is never hairy).

joe, las vegas, nevada

I think both waxed and hairy female forms are beautiful and sexy as hell, and always will be. The more the merrier.

can't choose, sydney,

"Dont change a hair for me, not if you care for me..."

Rosie Scenario, Washington,

entertaining; all from hitchens, marvlus.There is always a one sided tendency in "western" journalism, to let pass without comment , the recurrent a brasiveness and seeming intolerance of other cultures and religion, of individuals acting to draw attention to themselves in the name of Islam. There is rarely any similar display of aggressive intolerance from hindus, jews, christians of communists, The medieval basis of many popular religions constantly creates riction with modern sociial values. Few however follow the loical route and remove themselves to a medieval life and location and so reduce gratuitous friction.

jbzola, ascot, uk

Pubic hair is to keep one's tackle warm while swimming.
Pubic sideburns were useful for cycling once upon a time but are now redundant due to the invention of spandex shorts.

Maria Confait, London,

the author's take on ms. noah's motivation for wanting to work in a hair salon is steretypically and predictably uninformed. her decision to cover her hair is between her and god; it is unlawful for her to judge anyone else's decision on the topic. in addition, all of the hejabis that i know have infinitely healthier hair, both because it is rarely exposed to the harsh elements of modern life and because they style and care for it exclusively for themselves rather than for public validation. they take meticulous care of their hair and skin and would therefore understably be proficient or even excellent aestheticians. furthermore, lots of muslim women that work as aestheticians do not cover but offer private rooms in their salons for hair care, skin care, and hair removal services for women that do cover.

zhaleh, seoul, south korea

In the penultimate paragraph, Turner hits the nail on the head. A courageous piece of journalism.

Charmaine, London,

I'm female and I wholeheartedly agree with this article. No pubic hair reminds me of paedophilia and prostitutes (sorry, I meant porn actresses and page 3 girls).
Women and men should just groom (or not groom) their hair as they wish, and should pay no attention to what a society and media obsessed with sex and outward appearance thinks.

AK, London, UK

Holy moley. I cannot get past the persistent hatred and disgust of God-fearing people for human beings as God created them. If we were created in God's image, then the hair comes with the package. Why can't we stop hating ourselves?

Theresa, Brooklyn, New York, USA

And if a bald Christian was turned down for a hairdressing job because he couldn't display a cutting-edge cut, would that be OK, too? Let's assume he's prematurely bald, so that age discrimination doesn't enter into it. Or if a woman was turned down because she wasn't pretty enough? Unless the job description clearly states that one is being hired in part as a model, surely the decision to hire should be based on how well one cuts hair.

John FitzGerald, Toronto, Canada

A broad, hairy chest is the sexiest part of a man's body. And that's all I have to say about that.

C, New York, NY

A well written article with a fine conclusion. I think the matter of body hair is largely irrelevant and whether people choose to have it shaved, trimmed or untouched is up to them, with all options being equally pleasing in their own rights.

What is of relevance is "It is a statement of separation from — and declared opposition to — the secular society in which she was raised, which she expects wholly to accommodate her impossible wishes, while she herself will not budge an inch!"

This is the key and I think it originates from mankinds desire to be different and their need to be recognised, if only people could grow up and realise that they can be original by their personality alone and do not need to shout it by grabbing on to what ever is foremost in the debating chambers or most controversial. A fine non religious example would be of some teenagers wanting to be Goths-all they are saying is "look at me".
Finally let us remember that when in Rom...........

Toby, Hurstpierpoint, England

I took a mixed sauna at my leisure centre recently, showing off my hairy chest, not overly hairy, just a regualr amount. I was laughed at by a young girl. Her clean shaven, crew cut, perma-tanned boyfriend had great difficulity shuting her up. I very nearly commented on the teenage flab escaping all the edges of her one-piece swimsuit. She's obviously never had the pleasure of hairy man. I blame ActionMan and Barbie myself. Man morphs to Plastic.

paddy, dublin, ireland

Ummmm "...gay men... who have championed the modern aesthetic of a smoother male torso..." Ever hear of bears? But perhaps Janice's ignorance of my gender is equal to mine of hers.

Saltybear, Austin, TX

rbl, Austin, TX

What a great article. I am a man and have shaved my body for years. Top to bottom except my head. I love it. Sex is way better since there is no hair to cause friction. It's way cleaner and where I live in South Florida its cooler in the summer. Why does everyone say it's about pressure and stereotypes? It just feels better. Just as society has advanced in language and clothing it only makes sense to remove another vestige of our more primitive past. I certainly don't need body hair to survive and it looks hideous. I didn't realize it made my male part look bigger but hey it's another plus. But probably the best part of shaving your body is when you hit the sheets and they just feel so soft and smooth. It takes maybe fifteen minutes end to end but I'm a Pisces and like long showers anyway. And chicks dig it.......

Thomas P. Derby, Boca Raton, Florida USA

I think the craze for pubic waxing is mass brainwashing. The procedure is painful, leaves my skin bruised and scarred, as the author wrote, results in "pimpled hair follicles." I don't care if many men won't want to sleep with me, I hope I never feel compelled to do it again (except for a bit of shaving for the beach). With little or no pubic hair, I feel like a little girl and I'm scared of the man who finds this erotic or appealing.

Carol, New York, USA

it is highly important to stop the compensation culture of false or twisted discirmination cases in the UK

Sacha, London,

Thank goodness someone is writing about this topic, great article and a really important point to make about the increasing demands on young women to spend huge amounts of time and money changing their bodies so that they conform to an unrealistic stereotype. As a parent of three girls, and someone who has been fairly uninterested in shaving any areas of my body, I think that it is really important for young people to be allowed to just BE. They have enough to think about without constant pressure to change the way they look to one set image.

nic, derby,

As a male who also shaves his pubic and underarm hair, I can assure you that it is much more aesthetically pleasing when it comes to sex for both partners to be pubically shaven. Any man who has experienced both the shaven and unshaven will agree with me. The very fact that the porn industry insists on its actresses being shaven now should be enough evidence that most people now find it more erotic and beautiful.

British Muslim, London,

I go along with Dick Parsons. Sometimes it's great to have something left to the imagination, but the undisguised female external genitalia (awful pesudo-medical expression) are more attractive than a tangle of hair. This has absolutely nothing to do with paedophilia. The (very) few women with whom I've discussed this do agree ("I don't like body-hair, ANYWHERE" said my last GF). Go au naturel if you want, but how many women also totally eschew lipstick, mascara, face-powder etc? There's nothing demeaning in depilating to as long as you are both OK with it. Just as I will take care to remove irritating beard-stubble, floss my teeth (and take care to be generally clean). And at a guess, most women who don't want a bikini-wax probably have no issue with shaven armpits. Did Lana Turner or Marilyn Monroe let themselves be filmed with hairy armpits?

John (UK), London,

Shaving one's pubic hair is not sexy, it's asexual. Hair creates a mystery, much the way a curtain is parted in a theatre to reveal the start of a play. Women who shave their pubic hair are reducing their attractiveness, not increasing it.

Eric, Los Angeles, CA

This article only gives a one-sided view of muslim women/girls. The side that is probably noticed more in the public sphere because it consists of cultures and traditions very different to that of the west.

BUT as a muslim girl myself, i as well as all my friends find it extremely easy to wear all the latest styles and "normal" clothes, without showing any flesh. And there are many muslim girls out there who dream of being fashion designers, beauticians and hairdressers. And why not? Just because you may not be able to see my hair, does that render my talents useless? If somebodies good at something, then they're up for it!!

Sarah, London,

A strictly post-menopausal Canadian perspective perhaps, but I mourn the loss of my once luxurient bush, now a scanty remnant of younger glory. The news isn't all gloomy though, the most important components of womanhood still function well and lustily.

Cheers

C. Naylor, Halton Hills , Canada

The guys and gals in most recent porn films I have seen usually remove most or all of their pubic hair. It looks cleaner and is no doubt also commercially preferable.

Dave, Southampton, UK

Worth reflecting, perhaps, on why 'evolution' has put/left hair where it has. Pheromones for armpits perhaps? But lower down on Les Girls - does it help discourage 'wasted input'? Does it even suggest 'alternative access' (for a more deeply engaging experience)? These are not really jokes - there must be a 'reason', and if not that, then what? And how ashamed are we all of being animals? Stubble never appeals, anyway.

Steve, T Wells, England

Maintenance should never be frowned on. But as in all things there are extremes. There is grooming and there is Grooming. My personal choices are for comfort and ease. I have never waxed. I do shave 3 times a week and just keep what I call a bermuda triangle, natural but tidy. I think this article is probably in reference to the "not real" folks of LA , NY and London. In Montana... nope I don't know any women who take it down to brazilian.... we need the coverage for warmth.

Vasi, Hamilton, MT/US

So here I was in a leather jacket shoppe where the talk amongst male salesclerks centered on their shaving techniques. The lone female clerk, very pretty, and not to left out, leveled her head toward me and commented - "I don't shave at all".
My response was to tell her that real men would appreciate that.
A nice private moment between two strangers.

Roger, Albuquerque, New Mexico USA

Nothing to debate or "battle" over, or at least there shouldn't be. This is just a case of personal preference and if we can't agree on something like this then there's not much hope for peace in this world.

Perhaps we should all do as we like, without reference to the religious or commercial depilation would-be-dictators on one side or the "this makes you a pedophile" cries on the other. For me it's a case of what suits you, and what you're comfortable with (as commented, it's no different to men choosing whether or not to grow a beard). And BTW, Jim Bob, you might resemble a prebubescent with your pubes shaved off but I don't and neither does any adult I've seen in that condition - it's a little scary when people make comments like that.

Personally I think variety is the spice of life and tend to enjoy both states: smooth can be beautiful, so can "au naturel", and the only thing wrong is when people try to dictate to others what they should do with their bodies.

SHDS, Philadelphia, USA

Shaving/waxing is just a pain, as I imagine it is for men every morning, but it's something we do anyway to please our partners. That's the real tragedy, women bending over backwards to please a man or a god, when it isn't even necessary - miscommunication all around.

Maria , Reading, USA

as far as ancient cleansing rituals go the reasons may have perhaps been more to eradicate body lice, rather than looking hot for paradise?

Clearly a pubic area halfway to the knees is not a sexy look - but with today's technology can we not invent a painless and subsequently pimpleless way to achieve this? Creams almost fulfill this but the results can be 'uneven' if one needs to leap up and answer the phone etc.

C Cleland, Schuttrange, Luxembourg

A very good article. Thank God - at last - perhaps a turning of the tide? I''ve watched in despair as young women turn themselves into porn star lookalikes - to be used and sniggered at by their boyfriends and other men who can't believe their luck at how easy it all is these days. As for expensive, painful, unnecessary so called "beauty treatments" including waxing, lip plumping, Botox et al - get real ladies let the guys see you as you really are - at least up to a point. Hair or not - they'll go through barbed wire to get to it; why make it easy for them?

savannah, London, UK

Dick Parsons, I wonder how many of the men you know who like a "shaven haven" would agree to having their back, crack and especially sack waxed, so that it would be nice and smooth for the laydees? It's funny, isn't it, that the pornification / paedification of society extends almost solely to women, for the pleasure of men with an unsavoury fixation on youth.

Carmine, Manchester,

Here's an opinion from a woman....The idea and visual of shaved pubic hair on men or women is very icky and unsexy to me. As someone else already wrote, hair grows as the body matures sexually and is part of the natural allure between the sexes. For men to remove all body hair is to me feminizing at the very least as they are removing characteristics of a sexually mature male. Seems like all this shaving is trying to eliminate the differences between the sexes to a very boring degree. Or at least make everyone look like children. To me it's just a fashion trend and has nothing to do with what attracts the sexes. Also not so different than fashions that try to make women look like young boys which is also very boring except to those attracted to young boys. I think it also has to do with how unnaturally separate sex has become from our true human nature. Just one more plastic manipulated consumable.

Shelley Potter, Wilmington, nc

Ah, er... an afterthought - I am of course assuming that Peter Hitchens isn't similarly glabrous. Hmn, more tea vicar?

Philipa, Worcs, England

Thanks for writing this. I agree with the link to the fetichisation of youth - pubic hair is one of the main things separating women and the pre-pubescent for goodness' sake! It is disturbing to me that in recent years, two boyfriends were quite vocal and insistent that they would prefer me to 'go Brazilian'. I have always refused, but find the fact a man would demand this so openly quite shocking. I am no longer with either of them, obviously.

Alison, London,

Wow, Janice Turner - you're good. I shall visit here again!

Seriously though, spot on. Every word. The article epresents my sentiments on every issue you touched upon. Of course that doesn't mean it's correct, but at least I now know I'm not the only one who is tired of these aspects of our 'culture', if you could credit it with such a word.

Paul, Southampton,

There are obviously many points of view. But I, and pretty much all the males I know, prefer to have a "shaven haven". There is no bigger put-off than to see a wad of pubes hanging out the sides of a bikini bottom or an armpit with enough hair to sweep the Albert Hall.

Dick Parsons, Stevenage,

Good article!
"You don't need to page Dr Freud to wonder how the craze for bare pudenda might be tied to some unsavory fetishisation of youth." - absolutely spot on.

I like Christopher Hitchens and understand doing stuff for a magazine but... ooh no - Peter Hitchens reminds us how a Man should look.

Philipa, Worcs, England

Pubic hair -whether it be a plethora or completely removed, is PRIVATE. For heavens' sake! I do however agree with the other writers who find it' s absence unnatural. It is paedophilia "all 'round", and an adult, healthy woman completely devoid of pubic hair should not be attractive to an adult, healthy and mentally healthy male!!

S. Lutz, wuerzburg,

Please no tattoos, no piercings, and let's have luxuriant bushes.

As with all things, these trends will pass.

John, Sussex, UK

Fabulous piece, Janice. Great to know that there is at least woman out there who feels that a shaven/stubbly or goose-pimpley pudenda is unaesthetic and deeply unsexy.

A luxuriant (but tended) "V" on a woman is a thing of beauty, and very erotic.

Sabremesh, London, England

PHILM already beat me to it. Would you seriously suggest we never cut the hair on our heads or beards? :D

Also, the Quran directly commands Muslims to move to a Muslim country, stay there and have nothing to do with infidels. I invite everyone to read it themselves. If anyone was really a devout Muslim, they would leave the UK/US immediately and wouldn't be around to sue anyone for discrimination.

Ugly American, Las Vegas, USA

I note that no women have posted comments,yet. Is this disapproval of the hair?

Alexander Cameron, London, England

Impressive. Dismissive and critical of the other side without being demeaning. I wish I could write like that.

CS Ngui, George Town,

Excellent article. Thanks.

Andrew, Shreveport, Louisiana

That's a grand piece of journalism. Thanks

John, London,

it's just a lot nicer all the way around. hair, pubic and otherwise, serves no purpose for modern humans (discounting perhaps eyelashes), collects dirt and odor, and is totally useless. pubic hair, male and female, only gets in the way of the action. as we have caught onto this we have begun removing it - end of story. it's just like reproduction - since the advent of birth control and having a choice, more and more people opt to "go against nature" and have sex for pleasure rather than reproduction. maybe it's "unnatural", but for many of us it's totally preferable.

johnny, durham, north carolina, USA

Where to start? Firstly some men like myself don't particularly like the Brazilian pre-pubescent look and prefer the more "au naturel" end of things. From a woman's perspective also a man's shaven stubbly chest cannot be a bundle of laughs...

On the religious side of things there are a million reasons to discount religion.. for example most humans in the UK live in houses and drive cars all of which is progress due to scientific developments turned into real-life applications by engineers. The sooner that all the religions stop believing in ridiculous religious fairy tales the better.

SCole, MAnchester, UK

The bush is a sign that the body is mature, ready for sex. A total lack of hair is characteristic of prepubescent children. And this is the look we're going for these days, folks. It's pedophilia all 'round.

Jim Bob, Los Angeles, USA

So it's good to cut and maintain hair on one's head and armpits and face, but not elsewhere?
Do you know of any man who does nothing to his facial hair?
What is so different or so taboo about pubic hair that it should never be touched? Isn't it obscuring something of great beauty? Who wants a mouthful of hair?
What anyone decides to do with any hair on any part of their body is (should be) down to personal choice. If a person is too pathetic to make such a choice who cares. There does seem to be rather more pressing issues to concern yourself wit!

PHILM, London,

I think female pubic hair is very sexy and alluring. Women who don't shave it are nature girls. However, it's private and the whole world should not be able to see it on the beach or in public places. It's very special and should only be revealed to her husband, boyfriend, significant other or female partner. Let it grow but let in grow privately !

Brien Comerford, Glenview, United States