When you're lost, you're lost. The worst thing is not knowing you're lost. Will someone tell this woman she's utterly lost?

Verlula Mium, St Albans, UK

Libby Purves is missing the point.
Being a Christian is not about not drinking alcohol, helping old ladies across the road and being nice. It is in fact living for Jesus and following the Bible as the Word of God which gives us His values for our lives. God does not look down and think 'oh my goodness, I didn't expect them to do THAT - He invented sex for our pleasure but within a loving, monogomous and faithfull marriage. If you are big enough to be brutally honest, the majority of social/emotional problems faced by our society are caused by people either not being married and committed to a husband and wife and staying faithful or adulterous relationships which cause hurt in every case.
Sex is healthy and God's gift to His children when a relationship is as He intended.
You cannot put God in a human 'box'. Read the Bible and find out what His views are on sex outside marriage, adultery and homosexuality. Then and only then can you see what the true Christian view is of sex.

Stephanie, Poole, England

I don't think the Church is rejecting sexuality as strongly as you say, or at least not in thway you want them to. Catholics come out strongly on the issue of homosexuality because gay marriage is an impossibility: it doesn't meet the requirements of marriage and it violates the Bible's description of marriage. Marriage is a reflection of Christ's relationship with His Church.
This isn't cowardice in the area of sexualtiy, it's a different approach. Read the Theology of The Body from Pope John Paul II, it gives a pretty good idea of the Church's teaching on sexuality. There's quite a bit, and it's been around for a while.

Rudz, Rome, italy

As 'they' say a LITTLE knowledge is dangerous, and even more dangerous when repeated ad nauseum.Let us avail ourselves of the true teachings of The Holy Catholic Church as explained by, St. Thomas Aquinas, and other Doctors of the Church, and by many Catholic authors, eg.G.K. Chesterton, and also the teaching and writings of Pope St. Pius X, Gregory XIII, etc. The list is ENDLESS!! Then you will have a picture of THE CATHOLIC CHURCH., and not the rantings and ravings of some 'so called Catholics'. Then,form your objections. The truth is there, IF your're REALLY INTERESTED!!!

Pauline Nathans, New Fairfield, CT. USA

Rpuert, it's challenging to be Christian but as the saints witness, worth it.

Father Bryan Storey , Tintagel, UK

How depressing it is to see so many soi-disant Christians eaten up with fear and hatred. God is LOVE, you silly little piffling cowards. LOVE. Get used to it. That is the Word.

Thanks to Libby for her usual brilliant article.

Jane Wickenden, Wincanton, England

I agree entirely with Chris Jeffreys, Banstead, Surrey. WELL SAID, BROTHER!

Without the revelation from the Holy Spirit - that is, the Spirit of the Living God Himself - mankind is LOST... LOST... LOST...

As God's Word says in His Holy Book "My people perish for lack of knowledge."

After all, God does take the foolish things of this world to confound the so-called who'd like to think they wise!!!

F Emmanuel, Merton, London, England

Libby

You may well howl that christianity in its mainstream forms has little more to offer than self-righteousness towards others...and it has had 2000 years to get it right. Best to leave it then.

Rupert, Cambridge,

I completely endorse the comments made by Ray Cote. As a bible-believing Christian of 25 years I bow to the authority of the inspired word of God. God is holy and perfect and will not be mocked. Those who try to understand God's truth with the mind of man will endorse Libby Purves comments. It is only by revelation from the Holy Spirit that we are able to understand God's perfect will for us. Without Him we have fallen into the evil mess that man has made for himself in the world today.

Chris Jeffreys, Banstead, Surrey

Anybody shouting ' keep away, sexual activity proceeding' will have a good following. Yet it doesn't help. We need the encouragement to that essential ingredient of liberating love, sexual self conrol.

Father Bryan Storey , Tintagel, UK

Hallelujah! The voice of Sanity! I'm with Libby - and so, I suspect, are the majority of Christians, church-going or not, Catholic, or not.

Lesley Blount, Blackrod, Lancashire, UK

We never find and transmit the convincing zeal and inspiration of the Gospel in any sphere if we exclude sexual self control from the agenda. This is what gives His saving teaching vitality as is clear in that Sermon on the Mount. We're never too old to learn as Malcolm Muggeridge said in his 'Chronicles of wasted years'.

Father Bryan Storey , Tintagel, UK

Problem for those who do not want sexual morality is that when that is undermined, everything is. Our concern for others simply diminishes and we enter more and more into the realms of self centreness, loudly proclaiming it's not true.

Father Bryan Storey , Tintagel, UK

At-a girl Libby !! Genital sexuality and the Catholic church - what a field for a Ph.D. As a cradle Catholic now aged 82, 83 on Thursday, I have long believed that it is no business of the Church what married Catholics get up to in the privacy of their own bedrooms. There are far more important subjects to prioritise , poverty, gun crime and government corruption to name but a few.
One of your best pieces - keep them coming.

John Kirby, Chalgrove, Oxon

It's unbelievable that anyone should propose eliminating sexual activity from morality. Our action follow our thoughts. Jesus says these should be purified in the most underrated element of the Sermon on the Mount. Purer minds bring better sexual activity whatever our strange inclinations may be.

Father Bryan Storey , Tintagel, UK

Kaleo Kaluhiwa,
The strategy you employ - which appears to come from pp.187-8 of the sodomy advocacy guide, "After the Ball", by Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen - should remind us that one ought not to use another person as a means to an end. For example, in the field of human learning, while it would be extraordinarily difficult to demonstrate that sodomising another person improves one's ability to think scientifically, it seems certain that performing vivisection on that same person would increase medical understanding. But advances in such knowledge are good precisely when they benefit other people rather than when they merely aggrandise the scientist at the expense of another person's suffering. Likewise, it is not moral to harm another person (for example, by buggering him) in the hope that it might provide one with artistic inspiration.

Kevin, London,

It is not an obsession with genital sexuality but a committment to Christ, the Bridegroom, and to His Church, the Bride. All the arguments in favor of same sex unions are based on a sentimental view of love. Love is stronger than death. And buggery is death, make no mistake about it. Human pleasure and the comfort of this life can not be the basis for love. Love, alas, is gold tried in the fire. That fire which purifies love of all dross is extinguished by those who place upon its embers their desires for a comforting life here instead of the wood of the cross in the hope of eternal life. This scandal of the cross is still a scandal in our day. Those who think they find spiritual life in homosexual unions have deceived themselves.

Ray Cote, Woodbridge, USA / Virginia

Just wanted to say this is one of the best pieces I have read for some time and I endorse it all. When will the Church start to concern itself with what really matters - world poverty, war, suffering,inequalities and "mans inhumnity to man" and not what goes on in the bedroom.
I am finding it increasingly difficult to stay within a Church which seems to be driving me out and alienating me. Jesus is love and loved all and we must do likewise. I cannot believe he would endorse the attitude of the Church today at the expense of concern for much bigger problems. Well done Libby. Keep it up

Ann Davies, Basingsoke,

The great unrevealed mystery is that homosexuality does have a generative, procreative purpose. While gay folk can certainly choose (albeit only with great forethought and intention) to have children--- when free from bigotry, gays remain unburdened by the imperative to breed, and thus often give birth metaphorically. How else to explain the great and disproportionate contributions to culture of gay folk? Why are so many of these folk--the artists, musicians, scientists, healers, seers, storytellers, spiritual leaders, the carriers of culture and mediators between the sexes-- gay? Because our essence is a more balanced blend of male and female energies, and because our view is from the outside looking in, and so what we see and do in the world, when supported for who we are, constitutes a much needed and valuable contribution that benefits all of humanity.

kaleo kaluhiwa, santa cruz, california

Those that constantly quote from the Bible never really take the whole book in context. Southerners used verses from Ecclesiastes to condemn integration and integrated marriages. Most seem to forget that it was written that a slave must obey his master. (We did fight a civil war on this side of the pond over this minor issue).

Religion seems to best at creating an environment that separates people and judging others. In this day and age I think it would nice if all of the religions in the world ban together and push for unity, peace, ending world hunger instead of trying to deny rights to adults due to who they fall in love with.

RR, Seattle, WA, USA

Hello, BreeAnn from Knoxville,
Having a responsibility and choosing to accept it are two different things. For example, the shootings that have happened in London recently would not have occurred if everyone accepted the responsibility not to kill. It seems that you are using the term "bigotry" merely to bring an abrupt end to the process of debate. (What happened to love of neighbour?) Just to be clear, the importance of procreative love derives from the fact that it is the means of giving life to the very people who are the subject and object of morality.

Kevin, London,

Will people never realize how futile it is to argue religion??
You either believe in God or you don't.
You either obey God or you don't.
There are choices we must ultimately make as individuals, and consequences we must face as individuals; not as a group or as half of a partnership.

Gene, Oklahoma City, U.S.A.

To Kevin from London:
You've managed to completely fail to understand the fact that the responsibility of having "procreated" will not magically make a marriage work, which should have been made blatantly obvious by the rising number of single parent households and the still high statistics of divorce. To blame all the problems on "sodomy" or "contraceptives" is just grasping at straws to justify your bigoted stance.

BreeAnn, Knoxville, TN

NW, Baton Rouge,
Thank you for succinctly illustrating how to cloak a vice through a forced analogy with something that is not immoral. You use all the right words to qualify sodomy - "committed", "monogamous" - making it sound just like marriage. Then you make that one "little" switch, from procreation to buggery. (It has already been observed that people who engage in contraceptive - i.e. deliberately non-procreative - sex may be morally compromised into defending sodomy as well.) But here is where the analogy breaks down. The whole point of the commitment and monogamy entailed in marriage is that procreation requires that level of responsibility if families are to be a stable environment for children. With sodomy, no such stability is necessary. Why should those who engage in it practise "monogamy"? (Any attempt to analogise with infertile couples is to fail to represent infertility as it is - a handicap - and perceive it instead as a "blessing" of "naturally kid-free sex".)

Kevin, London,

The issue at hand is about faith and obedience. The Bible is very clear about homosexuality. According to God, it is a sin. The problem is to know if His followers have faith and love Him enough to obey. Salvation is about victory over sin. The Bible doesn't say it's easy. Rather it's a battle against self.
Some have the tendency to believe that God's morality is based on mens's knowledge. They are wrong. When God condemned homosexuality, He didn't pass this judgment based on the understanding of human biology by the Israelites. He did it based on the fact He is the Creator.
We have weaknesses and infirmities,sometimes from birth. But we don't call having Down's syndrome a normal condition. We call it a disability. So for God, homosexuality, being genetic or not, isn't normal.
Jesus said: if you love me, obey my commandments. We can call wrong right and right wrong. But let's not call ourselves Christians if we have no desire to listen and obey what Christ is saying to His Church.

Still Talking, Philadelphia, USA

It figured that John from TX would would bring bestiality into the equation. Typical of the Bible belt that refuses to question things logically and view the obvious answer to his own question. John, the difference between bestiality/pedophilia and consensual gay relationships is that the a dog/child is not a consenting adult. The article even mentioned that the of use of power as the true sin.

Also, the issue of disgust has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Disgust is relative. Plenty of gay men and women are repelled at the thought of sexual relations with a member of the other gender, yet they are able to see it as normal, of course. Just because YOU don't like, that it doesn't make it wrong. I don't like cauliflower, in fact it makes me sick to my stomach. Yet I will not condemn you because you like it.

Patrick, Portland, Oregon USA

Dear Ms. Purves;
You're nearly there. You are correct to notice the obsessive behaviour of the churches - the sexual prudery, the violent abuse of terrified young women outside abortion clinics, the determination to suppress all thought that disagrees with the scribblings of some ancient nomads - who, simply because they claimed in writing to be speaking for god, must apparently be considered a more informed source than all of modern science. You only have to take one more tiny step, and you are free. Consider the reasons why you are not an unaffiliated worshipper of Zeus, Thor, Mithra, Allah, Anubis, or Caesar Augustus, and then see if those reasons apply equally to your current faith. If you look honestly, you will see what I did - that all religions are untrue, immoral, and unreasonable, and all differences between them are merely a matter of degree. Whether you choose to call yourself an atheist, agnostic, Bright, or Secular Humanist, be ruled by reason, and be free.

Matthew Austin, London, UK

Dear Mrs. Purves,

If Rome truly is intolerant towards the homosexual community, I would find it rather ironic, considering that homosexuality was a common practice in Rome before its of the major staples of the Roman Empire before it fell. The issue of homosexuality is one that regards an individual taking their own sexuality into their own hands, which is no problem if God is out of the equation. But say that we all are animals. And that the strongest survive. Why homosexuality? It simply goes against the natural order. The ones that survive are those that are strong and reproduce. Homosexuals do not reproduce; they simply adopt or die off. What is interesting to me, is that why does it stop there? If homosexuality is allowed, then why are other forms of sexuality, such as bestiality or pedophilia, is seen as taboo in modern society? The mere suggestion of disgust automatically denotes that somewhere, there is some sort of standard.

John, TX, United States

The fundamental idea that homosexuality is unnatural and/or wrong, and/or a sin, is just simply not true. To say it is a "choice," or something like that, is an emotionally appealing, yet incorrect thing to say.

I'm not gay myself, but I know for absolute sure that a certain number of folks are born that way, and have always been that way, and will always be that way. Period.

It's like prostitution. It's always there. You can be an ostrich or face the facts.

Jason, SK, SK

"it is a scandalous absurdity, in an increasingly secular age, to have the loving simplicities of the Christian faith fragmented into squabbling cliques."

Personally I'm glad that most religions seem to spend so much time sniping at each other. Long may it continue - it means they have much less time to impose their dreary bigotry on the rest of us.

H Crumpton, Arbroath, Scotland

Wow. Very well written and long overdue. I applaud you sir.

Matt K. , Los Angeles, CA

Christianity's obsession with sex is not new. It's as old as the religion itself. It's only recently that their obsession has no longer become the norm in society and the growing gap between what the Church wants us to think and what we actually think is becoming more and more obvious and this is just another example of how people are growing beyond the need for religious authority to dictate to them what is moral and what is not. And frankly, thats a good thing. When the Church ruled every aspect of a persons life, it was called the Dark Ages, and virtually no progress was made in this time period, be it scientific or social. It took the Plauge and some of the greatest minds in history to shake off the iron fist of theocracy. Because of that we have virtually everything we have today, civil rights, womens rights, democratic nations, every scientific advancement since then, etc. Religion is losing it's power in modern times, and there is nothing it can do to avert its coming demise.

Anonymous, Copus Christi,

Dear Ms Purves
I have searched in vain for your email address to send you a short note of appreciation for this amazing article. If it does reach you, please know that this article of yours brought tears of gratitude and appreciation to the eyes of an old gay man who has lived through all the horrors of ecclesiastical homophobic bigotry. I am deeply grateful to you for having the courage, intellect and wisdom to criticise the cruelty and madness of these so-called primates and the hurt that they continue to inflict on innocent human beings in the name of God. Your words expose the self-serving vanity and self-obsession of all these mitred tyrants and stand as a reproach to them for all eternity. Thank you, Ms Purves, for your courage, clarity and compassion. In a better world, YOU would have been the Vicar of Christ and Mr Benedict would have owned a pub in Germany May you be blessed in every way, now and always. Sincerely, Rocco
PS Having an email address wld hv helpd.

Rocco, Cape Town, South Africa

Oh, please, Libby. There are plenty of people who base their entire identities around their sexuality--who say that their sexuality is part of the core of their being--and that you must accept it to accept them--and I doubt you would condemn them for being "genitally-obsessed." Are genitals important, or aren't they?

No one is saying that the reason adultery is evil is that someone had an orgasm. It is evil for many reasons, but one is that what we do with our bodies is important. Betraying someone once with your body--those darn genitals--is more significant than betraying someone emotionally once, or intellectually once. I would be hurt if my husband started relying on another woman instead of me to talk through his problems with, but it would be a further level of betrayal if he slept with her, you must see that.

Jo Shepherd, Edinburgh,

Much of what people do is done in the name of God. Irishmen blow each other up in his name. Arabs blow themselves up in his name. Imams and ayatollahs oppress women in his name. Celibate popes and priests mess up people's sex lives in his name. Jewish shohets cut live animals' throats in his name. The achievements of religion in past history -- bloody crusades, torturing inquisitions, mass-murdering conquistadors, culture-destroying missionaries, legally enforced resistance to each new piece of scientific truth until the last possible moment -- are even more impressive. And what has it all been in aid of? I believe it is becoming increasingly clear that the answer is absolutely nothing at all. There is no reason for believing that any sort of gods exist and quite good reason for believing that they do not exist and never have. It has all been a gigantic waste of time and a waste of life. It would be a joke of cosmic proportions if it weren't so tragic.

JDG, Gahanna, OH

"As for "being homosexual is not an abomination", the Church never said that. "Hate sins, love sinners" is what the Bible says, and what the Church says as well when it says "homosexual ACTS are intrinsically disordered" but "homosexuals are christians like any others, are called to a saint life, and should not be discriminated against". Can the message be clearer ?"

Quite right; the message is very clear. The church continues to insist on discriminating against people on the basis of their sexuality. Luckily this is one 'freedom' that religious bigots are about to lose.

Martin, Dorset,

Religion and cults are man-made inventions designed to allow an elitist priesthood to con value out of those that follow them.
Throughout history serious crimes against people have been committed using religion.Millions upon millions of people have been forced to live drab,boring ,unfullfilled and painful lives because they have been stifled by religous guilt and fear.
And it still goes on why the church worries about someone sexual persuasion is beyond me.
If you believe there is a god who created this world in 6 days then why get upset over someones sexual preferance surely the creator of the universe has better things to occupy is time with.
Wake up people it is about time common sense was used.

Alan Jackson, whaley Bridge, England

Kevin in London: It's time that Christians (indeed, those of all faiths) learned that sexual sin is not about what you do with your genitals, but about what you do to relationships. Adultery is sinful not because it involves sex with a married person per se, but because it causes terrible damage to other human beings with whom one is in committed relationship. Bath house sex may be sinful for the same reason; committed monogamous gay relationships are not.

N. W., Baton Rouge,

Very well written piece. Especially the "grow up" part. It is indeed time for the the church to care about the important issues and stop being obsess with marginal sides of the sexual activities. We need more articles like this and we need to address one other aspect of the power and responsibilit of the church. AIDS is widespread in Africa. It's a problem that kills thousands of innocents of all ages. Including children. The presence of the church in African countries is well known. They hold a strong power in educating and convincing the African people. Yet, they discourage the use of condoms, effectively becoming responsible for countless deaths that could be avoided. We need to tell people about this, we need to hold the church responsbile to their actions. The popes, the last two, have preferred to let people die instead of letting them have protected sex. This is the entity of the church's unbalance when looking at real life issues.

PC, Soquel, CA

The issue at hand is about faith and obedience. The Bible is very clear about homosexuality. According to God, it is a sin. The problem is to know if His followers have faith and love Him enough to obey. Salvation is about victory over sin. The Bible doesn't say it is easy. Rather it is a battle against self.
Some have the tendency to believe that God's morality is based on men's knowledge. They are wrong. When God condemned homosexuality, He didn't pass this judgment based on the understanding of human biology by the Israelites. He did it based on the fact that He is the Creator.
We have weaknesses and infirmities, sometimes from birth. But we don’t call having Down's syndrome a normal condition. We call it a disability. So for God, homosexuality, being genetic or not, isn’t normal.
Jesus said: if you love me, obey my commandments. We can call wrong right and right wrong. But let’s not call ourselves Christians if we have no desire to listen and obey what Christ is saying to His Church.

Still Talking, Philadelphia, USA

Libby Purves sees the churches’ concern with genital sexuality as an “obsession” and seeks to downplay its significance. She portrays rape for example as an abuse of trust, inequality of power etc etc but rape's significance lies in ancient taboos (that is what makes it different to assault). Genital sexuality is both immensely powerful and potentially chaotic. Is there a single society where genital sexuality is not controlled to some degree by taboos, at the very least against incest? It is not difficult to imagine that in an economically marginal society, harmony and cooperation were necessary for survival and that sexual relations which disrupted cooperation were proscribed. Homosexuality both disrupted the bond between man and woman as well as being fruitless. In the case of impotence or sterility the rules could be modified. This is the traditional recipe for an enduring and prospering society - and one that is very widespread throughout the world. The church obsessed with genital sexuality? I don’t think they or Libby Purvis know the half of it.

Bob Trimmer, London, UK

What does it matter as long as there's love. Love creates
kindness and understanding. There's not one religion
which is right, I have made my own religion and am at
peace with it. Don't need to follow any other, don't need
anyone guiding me in what to believe. My grey matter
understands some views and refuse to accept others.
Does that mean that I don't belong.. No. It means I'm
using my brains to accept certain dogma to the limit of
my mind without twisting it to the mind of someone else.
As long as there's love there's peace so be it.

jacqueline, Perth, Western Australia

Good: Libby opens a debate that should chalenge all those who call themselves Christians. When you read some of the comments one could really think that the religion founded by Jesus of Nazareth(or was it Paul of Tarsus?) was a group of unkind vicious bigots.
Libby has brought sanity into the subject and show up the obsession that far to many church people have with genital sex. As she rightly says thoughtout the history of the church all kinds of cruelty and persecution have been propagated becasue of the 'we are right' disease and you must conform or be dammed. This obscures the real good that can be and is done to feed the poor and cloth the naked, visit the imprisoned and the works of mercy on whch we will be judged rather than our petty squabbles about sex.

Peter Piper, Oxford, Oxo

From my understanding of Christianity's history and view of sex, it has been taboo subject since the middle ages, when you could be burned for sodomy and the like. Our society is also one founded mainly in Christian mores, so it could be said that our cultural fascination is because of Christianity. As to claims above that Christianity is "not a country club", the actions of people splitting from churchs and coming back to others seems to imply that is not exactly the case. Many see the bible as immutable law, yet there are so many different interpretations of it. It is sad that people will ignore the parts of the bible that preach tolerance and love for your fellow man, so that they can uphold the crueler and more dogmatic aspects. Religion is viewed as a rigid an structured system that needs to be obeyed completely or abandoned. This damaging to all who wish to have faith in something. Please, if you must choose to err in someway, let it be in the kinder way.

April, Stony Brook,

I've no real comments on the article itself for or against, however I see some fundamental misunderstandings in the reading of this article. Simply put, in this article, Libby only speaks about the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church. This is not, under any circumstances or pretenses, a condemnation of every branch and denomination of Christianity. It would be foolish to treat it, and more importantly to respond to and speak to others about it, as though it were.

Sky, Norcross,

Libby,

Why do you remain a Catholic? Why don't you just become an Episcopagan?

Aiden, Toronto, Canada

While the history of the "church" and religous people towards homesexuals certainly is full of hatred and bigotry, throwing away what are clear Biblical commands against homosexual behaviors (sorry, the Leviticus translations aren't ambigous, not are the NT injunctions) doesn't help either. To put teachings against homosexual practice, which are Biblically based, in the same category as teaching regarding celibacy of priests, which are tradition based, dmeans the place of Scripture. If one had a high view of Scripture, one can not simply discount these teachings based on cultural and social imperatives of a time 2000-3000 years ago. God's Word is as meaningful today as it was then, or it isn't menaingful at all.

Kennneth Mandley, Turtle Lake, WI

To C.S. Strowbridge: incorrect theology. Jesus did not say that you go to hell if you don't sell all your possesions and give the money to the poor. Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.

Bob, Detroit,

You know, every once in a while, I read something of such power and good sense that I say--"I wish I'd had the wisdom and wit to write that!"

This is one of those times--BRAVO, Libby! Organized Religion has such unrealized power to comfort and heal, it's a major tragedy that it allows its arrested sexual ethics development to thoroughly compromise its mission. Which is why I much prefer the Disorganized UU approach. Thanks again, Libby.

cardfark, danville, CA, USA

People who claim to be pure enough to speak for God against other people are violating their own teachings. "Judge not lest ye be judged." If you are a proper Christian you do not judge people, you help them. And by help I do not mean humiliating, cult-like interventions. Anyone who says, "You're going to Hell because of your lifestyle" is judging you as if they knew what God is thinking. Blasphemy, plain and simple. Stop being spiritual terrorists and actually do some good instead of spreading hate.

Nick, Champaign, IL

What about an "unsought orientation" to pair up with a particular person ("where one sees beauty") who is already married - acting upon which you would apparently condemn as adultery? It is very easy to justify any vice by making a forced analogy between it and something else that is not immoral. The fact is that sodomy is contraceptive sex par excellence, which may explain why some people who do not engage in it may nevertheless feel morally compromised into defending it. The human soul is not, however, some tabula rasa upon which one can etch any morality. We have bodies too. If our ethics are to be predicated (partly) on love of neighbour then we should respect our neighbour's capacity for procreative love (or chastity, if that is chosen) rather than trying to deprive him or her of that capacity in order to satisfy our own temptation to lust.

Kevin, London,

Hey leo Fas, Jesus also says you have to sell all you possessions and give the money to the poor. If you don't, you are going to hell.

You can't pick and choose what parts of the Bible you want to follow. It's an all or nothing deal.

C.S.Strowbridge, Abbotsford. B.C. , Canada

The church isn't obsessed with any more than society is. The only difference is that it's easy to mock certain strands of the Chrurch's teaching whilst disguising oneself in a robe of self-righteousness. I think, Libby, you are a good journalist, but you must surely know how slanted your article is. There are thousands of excellent Christian books about love, and relationships that by far outstrip any secular offering. So why do you rant as though every single Christian of every single denomination has uality issues. Maybe you're the one with the issues but use your influence to hide this.

Richard DM, Nuneaton, UK

Your last comment, Libby is almoist correct...

Christianity, nor any other religion, has anything to offer - except a combination of moral and physical blackmail.
Thus it has always been, and has become obvious again.
"Islam is a religion of peace, and we'll behead anyone who says different!" - is a parody, but not too far out in some cases at least.

Just dump the whole thing (including communism, of course, because it is another false religion) and do without it.

You have only your freedom to fear, why are you frightened of freedom - because it brings responsibility, that you would rather hand over to a self-appointed priest?

G. Tingey, London, England

Libby has no understanding of holiness. Homesexual relations are a grave sin again God...perioid!
The Anglecan church as split apart so badly because of a
lack of leadership and proper understanding of scriptures.
To be a follower of Jesus....
"If you live according to My teaching you are truly my
discipels. Then you will know the truth and the truth will
set you free.
John 8 vs. 32

leo Fas, phoenix, Az.

I'm sick and tired of claims that the Bible condemns homosexuality. Such claims are disputed, at best. The Bible condemns a great many other things that we ignore - why, as Libby Purves so accurately notes, are some Christians so obsessed with what others do in bed??? I would ask Martha and Patrick to really examine their priorities. What's really getting ignored in this debate is the good work the church SHOULD be focusing on - feeding the poor, clothing the needy, etc.

Carl Johengen, Bath, NY

My greatest contempt is for the religious abuse of children – terrifying youngsters with the threat of hell, indoctrinating them in unquestioning obedience and instilling crippling guilt about sex – as bad as child sex abuse by priests that has cost the Catholic Church more than one billion dollars in compensation… Richard Dawkins…

I quote Richard Dawkins and write from my own experiences of 10 years at the hands of the Jesuits, where fear and indoctrination were the norms and any concept of pastoral care or any emphasis on love and friendship were completely overlooked. Those experiences have left me contemptuous of the religious principles that were drummed into me with the fear of eternal damnation for any sexual transgressions in thought word or deed. 'if i'm going to hell for having lustful thoughts about a girl,' i asked a Jesuit inquisitor, ''why not go the whole hog?' I was soundly thrashed for my impudence.

John Bidwell, Wittersham, Kent

Libby,
Your take on the teaching of the Catholic Church is nothing other that ill informed. Our society is what is focusing all of its attention on sex not the church. The church wants us to look at our sexuality in the context of our entire being. It is only a part of who we are it should not dictate our identity.
What science is showing us is that this is not as innate of a condition as we have been mislead to believe. There are many reasons why someone may find themselves attracted to members of the same-sex and we must not ignore the aspect that we can do something about. There are many who do not wish to identify with the gay subculture that has only recently evolved. How accepting can this present culture be towards them? How accepting can you be towards someone that says they do not wish to identify themselves by what someone else says they are? Having same-sex attraction does not make you gay it gives you tools to relate to other human beings.

Dennis, Edmonton,

The last time I check the Catholic Church isn't a country club.

Take it or leave it.

hal, Washington, USA

The Church is not obsessed with sexuality !
Sexuality has been a social obsession for the past 40 years, so the Church proposed its own message, along with many other things, such as ethics of trading, "third world" development, social justice, etc. But on these matters nobody even bothers to mention the Church's position. You sell more with a title about sex and the "backminded Church", so obviously that's all that appears publicly.
The Church proposes a whole spirituality for LIFE, and how could it ignore that sexuality is part of life? But it's not the central point of its teachings.

Claire, London,

To Jenny - the Church does say much more about other ills of society, it's just the media isn't interested in them. Instead the media continue to militantly push a homosexual agenda which the Church simply cannot abide by. Why can't the Church be free to do this?

TP, Rome, Italy

Libby Purves has probably not read one encyclical or speech made by the Roman Catholic Church and its representants in a long long time.
Everything she pretends the Church doesn't say - about not using others as objects, about adultery being primarily bad because of the breach of trust, etc - is EXPLICITELY proclaimed by the Church, first of all in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which existence she seems to ignore). But it's true that it's much easier for the media and the anti-christians to summarise the pages and pages of coherent theology into a "must/mustn't do" list.
As for "being homosexual is not an abomination", the Church never said that. "Hate sins, love sinners" is what the Bible says, and what the Church says as well when it says "homosexual ACTS are intrinsically disordered" but "homosexuals are christians like any others, are called to a saint life, and should not be discriminated against". Can the message be clearer ?

Claire, London,

As an elderly, straight, atheist observer of our country, with no stake in how the churches behave, I just want to express appreciation of the clarity, decency and common sense of this article.

Anthony Langdon, London, UK

Go gurl! There was a link to this column today on Thinking Anglicans. I knew you previously only from the BBC R4 Midweek broadcasts. TBH I had no idea you wrote for this paper. Now I'll read you regularly. As a gay Episcopalian in the Diocese of Vermont and after the bombshell from Dar es Salaam, I sure needed your words today with my morning Whittard. Thanks!!!

Jay Vos, Burlington, Vermont, USA

Ms. Purves, thank you thank you, thank you. I am Episcopalian with two gay siblings. (My sister Nancy sent this to me.) I consider the Anglican Communion, on this issue, to be far afield of the spiritual teachings of Christ. My late father was an Episcopal priest, and I assure you he would have wholeheartedly agreed with you. Thank you for raising our spirits with your true understanding of God's grace and love.

Barbara Mott, Knoxville, Tennessee, usa

Regarding Moshe of Toronto; I think you will find that Abraham and Sarah were nomads living tents. Also the first 5 books of the Bible, including Leviticus,are attributed to Moses during the period of 40 years wandering in the dessert. I applaud Libby's comments; I find bigotry abhorrent particularly amongst the Christian community where forgiveness,kindness, tolerance and love should be at the forefront of our message.

Fiona Wharton, Newmarket, UK

I appaulded the Roman Catholics for making a stand on so many moral issues, and I am always quick to say well done. But it is something else to compromise the scriptures to agree with misguided Catholic teachng. ie. Pray to saints, pray to mary, confess your sins to priest, accept pergutory even though all of the above is not mentioned in the bible, etc etc please show me where I can find these teachings in the Bible? They don't exist! So I will remain a Christian and a protestant thank you!

Simon Icke, AYLESBURY, BUCKINGHAMSHIRE

Yet another anti-catholic Liberal article. Rome isn't intolerant towards gays, they condemn their behavior. The Catholic faith teaches that homosexuality is immoral. Sadly, what you fail to see is our reasonings for this. As Catholics, we don't concern ourselves with only the here and now like you do, we do everything with one goal in mind: to get to heaven. I pray that you realize that someday before it's too late.

Patrick, New Britain, Connecticut

"Thou shall not lie with a man . It is an abomination"
In your opinions, should Christians ignore scripture too?

Martha, Manchester, England

Libby,

While your comments about Catholics and Christians show that you deeply care about the issue, it also betrays a somewhat immature understanding of true Catholic teaching. If you want to make a point concerning Catholic sexual teaching, please refer to the Catechism or any of John Paul II's teachings on the theology of the body. I think you will be very pleasantly surprised to find that the Catholic Church agrees with you on many things! Genital sex is wonderful! Your points about the evils of rape and adultery line up very well with what the Church says!

I agree with Richard that we must move on towards perfection, we must also move with wisdom and understanding. Bridging the great divide between what the Catholic Church teaches and what people think that it teaches will certainly help bring Faith, Hope and Love to the world.

Jack Koczela, Madison, USA

In response to John from Glasgow. It is true that there is no conclusive scientific evidence that homosexuality is hard wired in the brain, but there is also no evidence that it is caused by early childhood experiences either. If the stereotype of the overbearing mother and distant father casuing homosexuality were true, then I should be straight. My mother was anything but overbearing and my father palyed a larger role in my upbringing than a lot of fathers did. What is clear though is that once fixed sexual orientation cannot be altered. The medical profession tried and failed.

Moreover, the primary purpose of sex is procreation but this doesn't have to be the only purpose. In the bonobo chimpanzee sex also functions as a means for reducing group tensions and the sex is homosexual and heterosexual is nature. All bonobos are inherently bisexual. Bonobos aren't the only ones either. Homosexuality has been recordered in something like 1500 species, so clearly it is a part of nature.

Daniel , New York, New York

Ms. Purves: You mean the churches should preach what Jesus preached, do what Jesus did?

Yeah, right -- like that's gonna happen.

Ruth Warkentin, Long Beach, CA, USA

There seem to me to be a few misconceptions in Libby Purves' column, even if some of what she says does make a lot of sense. Firstly, Christians' reasons for disagreeing with gay sex go much further than "genital fixation": it has to do with the basic identity of man and woman, the fact that they are "made for each other", to put it simply. Homosexuality blurs the ideal identities of man and woman.

Also where studies have shown predispositions to homosexuality, they have also shown predispositions to many other things: this does not affect whether they are good things to do, or whether they are beneficial to all.

I think she really hits on something in saying that adultery is not just about the act but the betrayal of trust, and that promiscuity is about using people. But these are inextricably linked to desire: not all desires are good.

Then these misconceptions may be partly the fault of Christians, in that many have failed to bother answering the questions raised!

Philip Sydenham, Brussels, Belgium

So, Gareth, when did you last have a bacon sarnie? Are you wearing clothes of mixed fibre? Do you cut the hair on your temples? All severe sins, according to Leviticus, some even punishable by death.

You can't pick and choose the bits of the Bible you like and ignore others and expect people to take you seriously.

Oh, and I think there's a bit about judging others somewhere.

Starling, Lancaster,

It is ironic that the Church of Rome, which itself has suffered greatly under the weight of sexual scandal, is seen as a haven for Orthodoxy. It is also ironic that gender and sexuality are being used as toold to reunite the divided church as it was immorallity that first drove Luther to rally against Rome.

Libby's article is insightful, and does the subject justice, though fails to comment of the fact the the Anglican schism is being driven by African and Asian conservatives who's only agender to further subjugate their flock.

Truth faith is never blind, and the truth is that the blindness of a few many is leading a great many astray.

Rachel, York,

Libby, I thank you for your openness on this topic. It is refreshing to see that some people -a minority- are not so blinded by dogma and the righteousness that they derive from 'believing', that they can actually think out of the box that the church may seek to create for them.

I am agnostic, but married to a fervent catholic who, I am glad to say, is just as open-minded as you, and does not take for granted the opinions of anyone else, be they priest or pope. I think that the problem is that religion has gradually turned away from its' original goal : to educate and enlighten the masses. Now the main objective seems to be to make sais masses miserable and submissive to the opinions of a few.

How sad that in the church, there never seems to be a good revolution, to bring in some fresh thinking.

Adam Cox, Bondy, France

""promiscuity, infidelity, exploitation, predation — whether gay or straight" likewise. I find it very difficult from Ms Purves standpoint to name a reason why they should be condemned if reference must made to nature , as the way things happen of themselves. On the other hand, if we take a functional notion of nature as normative, homosexual practice is as indefensible as these other practices are.

Agostini, Modena, "

Actually I can see a very simple reason why three out of the four examples you state are very different and should be singled out, they all have an unwilling victim.

If two people of the same gender love each other, how does that hurt anyone else? Why should anyone have to go through life lonely because YOU subscribe to a particular interpretation of an iron age myth.

PJ, Chinnor, UK

As a heterosexual athiest, I've no personal interest in this subject, unlike 90% of the other commenters. I find in general that any religions teachings of love and compassion to your fellow man only extend so far. Dare you break any conditions implied by an old book - written by a man - translated many, many times (each time adding a little rule here or there to benefit the translator/writer) -then you are destined to suffer the eternity of hell for making the wrong life choice. Any Anglicans out there should know that your religion only exists because Henry VIII wanted an heir. All religion seems to have been changed this way over the centuries to benefit some religious leader or other... how can people be so blind? Why not just follow the positive teachings rather than living a life filled with hate and judgement? Do you really think this kind of scathing hate-mongery will earn you a place in paradise?

Ryan, Manchester, UK

I actually think the point Libby Purves is making is quite valid and on the question of homosexuality, I myself have often wonder why religous groups and organisations have an obsession with the sexual act. Homosexuality has been shown to be a part of nature in many species, not just humans and no amount of rhetoric or denial will change that fact.

One has to remember that the bible has been translated and re-translated many times and added to and amended to suit the purposes of church and government through the centuries. So it is perhaps unwise to give absolute reverance to every word written as "the word of God". Rather, the bible should be seen as a guide and ONLY a guide to life and should not be used as a justification for the condemnation of another human being.

Incidently, if anyone is wondering: I am a christian but I do not subscribe to a particular religion (in my eyes religion and God are two very different things) and I am straight.

C Hale, Wolverhampton, Staffordshire

Where Libby is the vaunted evidence that homosexuality is hard-wired? It's against natural evolution: the mainstream religions and Dawkins agree on that. A tiny proportion deem themselves to be homosexual. Give me one evidenced based study that homosexuality is natural and I’ll find 5 that say the opposite.

The problem is that due to a focus on perceived ‘equality’ rather than what we know (by any measure science based or gut feeling), that the traditional family, with all it's faults, properly encouraged by Government, wins hands down. Now, let's get things in perspective. What mum and dad hopes that her kid is gay?

The Church cannot, and should not, change it's views just to converge on the unsubstantiated beliefs of liberal democracies, whose faith-led obsession with 'Human Rights' and 'Equality' have driven us into a unworkable society, bent on looking after the minorities (not I may add the relatively few of us who regularly attend Religious meetings) and forsaking proper discussion on a wide variety of topics.

John, Glasgow, Scotland

Excellent Article, A Good Point Well Made.

Richard Thomson, London,

We can't do what scripture forbids. Our teaching is captive to the Word of God. We must say that 'here we stand and we can do no other'.

James, Smethwick, England

Thanks Libby

Most Christians of my acquaintance would take your views almost wholly and without reservation.

We relish the opportunity for complete and un-reserved communion with all those who profess our faith. We do not seek to condemn anyone that acts in love towards their neighbour. We recognise the injunction against judging others as taught by Jesus Christ.

Can we please get on with our duties to the poor, disadvantaged, hungry, imprisoned, excluded, sick and lonely! Individually each and every one of those duties far outweighs any opinions we may have about sexuality or gender!

Stuart Williams , Bournemouth,

Someone please tell me what faith in God and God's love (a belief held by a person) has to do with enforcing rules of behaviour on other people (simple authoritarianism, usually perverted from primitive rules concerning ancestral traceability for the purpose of establishing land ownership and inheritance rights). The bible, koran and all other religious rule books were written, and are enforced, by men. As a catholic friend of mine says "The bible didn't fall out of heaven" - with the single, documented exception of one tablet of stone, just in case anyone thinks I haven't actually read any of them!
Start preaching faith and morality instead of perverted biology and quack-doctor psychoanalysis - maybe you'll be able to stop turning churches into wine bars and cut-price clothing stores!

KR, Stockport,

"Nomadic Old Testament Judaism"? I can't comment on much of what Purves writes, but I do know that "Old Testament Judaism" was not "nomadic"! The only period in Biblical Jewish history that even comes to being nomadic was the period of 40 years between the Exodus from Egypt and the entry into the Promised Land. But this was in reality a journey, albeit a long one, rather than a nomadic existence. In addition, it may be, as Purves says, that "translations of the interdict in Leviticus are uncertain", but if you read the original Hebrew there can be no doubt about what the Old Testament forbids as regards homosexuality and bestiality.

Moshe, Toronto, Canada

I read Libby Purves today, 20th February with great pleasure. The love that one has come to recognise and always appreciate shone.

Why don't the conservative African Bishops pay the similar attention to the glaring bother in their own country of young men spreading Aids by 'sleeping around' as they do to stop homosexuals doing what comes naturally?

A, Mark Eden-Bushell, GLASGOW, U.K.

I understand what the author is trying to say, but the abiding impression from this article is simply that she and the Church(es) do not agree. 'Bless all honest unions' indeed, what twaddle - the Church will never do that! All this sniping will not help. I'm not so sure Libby Purves doesn't want them to 'go the full Gay Pride, bathhouse-culture route' at all.

It has been widely accepted in science for at least a decade that homosexuality is a naturally-occurring trait; nobody who understands English would call it 'unnatural' as Libby Purves seems to imply. 'Abnormal' would be the right term (i.e. it's a deviation from the norm). But aside from that, the church do NOT have a problem with homosexuality these days, just the practice of extra-marital sex. I know you mentioned this at the beginning, but you seemed to forget towards the end.

And please, 'Gay penguins'? You nearly lost me there; thought I was reading the sister 'paper.

Adam Neilson, Birmingham,

Nicholas Wibberley, you say gay sex is "sex for purposes other than procreation" and therefore to be resisted. Sorry, but even the Catholic chuch doesn't believe that. After all, no church has ever refused to marry post-menopausal couples or couples who are knowingly infertile, not has it demanded that they are celibate.

Erika Baker, Blagdon, uk

I am a Catholic. I can still remember how many of us joked in the 1990's when Anglican priests joined us because of Women priests.
"Oh god, not another bigot - we've got enough already"

tim oakley, uxbridge,

OK, Nicholas Wibberly from France, but why differentiate between heterosexual couples having sex for non-procreational reasons and gay couples doing the same? That's just discriminatory.

Ryan Ormonde, London,

Well said Libby, the words could have come right out of my own mouth - but not half so well.

Edward O'Hara, Wakefield,

Just a note for the Anglican minister, Phil Alcock from London. It is indeed important that we don't pick and choose the parts of scripture that suit our own predilections, but the passage from 1.Timothy quoted by Rev.Alcock does not specifically address the priesthood. And on the issue of celibacy, 1.Corinthians ch.7 presents a very different view.
The Bible is a part of Christian tradition but not the only part. One can read every known version of the Bible front to back, back to front and sideways without ever finding the word Trinity, an issue absolutely vital to the the Christian faith. Neither is there any evidence of Jesus ever baptising a child or telling anyone else to baptise a child.
All aspects of Christian tradition must be considered before judging someone or something as immoral, unorthodox or un-Christian.

Paul Terracini, Nykobing Falster, Denmark

I totally agree with everything in this article. The church could reach out to so many people - goodness knows, there is SO MUCH it could do to heal some of the ills in our materialistic society. Instead we see the pathetic spectacle of out of touch fusspots all trying to keep the wrong kind of believers out of their club. It's horrible and depressing.

Jenny , London,

I think that our Churches must go on respecting their own tradition. I do not agree with Mr. Phill Allcok about the aparent oposition of priestly celibacy with the Holy Scripture. It is true that 1Tim speaks about the married bishops, but it is also clear that saint Paul speakes of the Charism of Celibacy in 1 Co 7, and moreover we can read it in Matthew 16.

Adrián Taranzano, San Francisco, Argentina

As the rest of the world moves on religion is going backwards. It really is enjoyable for a 26 year old Irishman to watch the demise of religion, particularly given the damage that the men and women of cloth did here. They are increasingly irrelevant to the vast majority of people. Hurrah for rationality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jason, Cork,

your article about the genitally fixated catholic church is filled with true christian grace and love...it is such a tragedy that we have a graceless and loveless pope and not pope libby.

ettienne nel, Bad Lauterberg, germany

St. John Chrysostom, writing in the fourth century AD, warned the Christian congregation at Antioch that woman was "a whited sepulchre full of uncleanness". Getting into his stride, he demanded: "What else is a woman but a foe to friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, a domestic danger, a delectable detriment, an evil nature, painted with fair colours?"

When are we going to realise that our ancestors were just plain wrong about so many things, and were often bigoted and misguided? Thomas Jefferson was considered an enlightened liberal in his day, yet he kept slaves. Thomas More, a saint, persecuted William Tyndale simply for translating the Bible into English, and put many so-called heretics to death.

We are far from perfect but we can at least move on, in common humanity and understanding of our fellow men.

Richard Broke, London, UK

"...[All] I can express for now is frustrated rage at both Churches’ incurable obsession with genital sexuality." Indeed. It's about time somebody took a stand over this.

And there's more, of course. All that stuff about sending the rich empty away is nothing less than pre-medieval communist agitation with no moral basis whatever. "Honour thy father and thy mother" - what about lone parents? Another one for the scrapheap. And as for that unsophisticated nonsense about good and evil - well, there seems little room for either in a truly modern society.

Well done, Dr Purves - it's about time Christianity got over itself.

Elliott Joseph, London,

The Catholic Church maintains that sexual acts must be both procreative and unitive, and homosexual acts can never meet this criteria. However, the Church makes a clear distinction between 'acts' and 'tendencies' and is quite clear that one should hate the sin but love the sinner. It is also important to remember that the Church sees any form of sex outside of marriage, whether heterosexual or homosexual, to be equally immoral.

It is easy to state that 'cruelty, snobbery, avarice and injustice have been tolerated by clergy', but these have also been tolerated by journalists, butchers bakers and candlestick makers. The Church recognises that man is fallen, but offers the opportunity for sinners to repent of any sin in confession. Surely it is reassuring that the Church, through the clergy, are one of the largest providers of humanitarian assistance in the world and do this for free!

Pope Benedict has stated that the Church may need to become smaller. If one doesn’t accept the teachings of the Magesterium, perhaps one should leave?

Dermott O'Gorman, Wallington, Surrey, UK

As an Anglican (of liberal catholic persuassion) I completely concur with Libby Purves. I'm so saddened by what has been happening in the church in recent years. It seems the Anglican church at least has taken several steps backward since the turn of the millenium. My only comfort is knowing that there are others feel the same way, but it seems the work of groups like Inclusive Church, Changing Attitudes and the Lesian Gay Christian Movement do not get so much media attention as the conservative groups. In particular, whenever a new sexuallity equallity law is debated, the media turn to conservative christian groups to provide the opposition arguements.

My own parish church is dwindling in numbers and those of use left are fighting for it's survivial. I can't help but think that more of the public might be interested in church, if at a national level we were not sending out such sex obsessed and judgemental messages.

Valerie, Staines, UK

I am disappointed. I am used to reading such good sense from Libby Purves. This article however is awash with sweeping generalisations and rhetoric and half truths. There may be some in the orthodox parts of the Anglican church who have an antipathy to sex, but those truly obsessed with sex are the liberals. For it is they who have elevated the right to sexual satisfaction as the trump right over all others - taking precedence over commitment to family, marriage vows, the plain reading of scripture and centuries of tradition.
As an Anglican minister, I shall not be joining Rome. The Bible is clear on the glory and wonder and preciousness of sex. The Roman Catholic denial requirement of priestly celibacy contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture (1Timothy 4:1-5). Uncomfortable as it often is, we cannot pick and choose which bits of Scripture we will submit to. When we do that, we put ourselves above God, and it ceases to be Scripture at all.

Phil Allcock, London,

Perhaps Libby's problem is that she is a "Catholic on the run" if that means that she isn't currently in the fold. The Catholic Church that she purports to describe isn't the one that I have known for over 50 years, and which I still know. I'm not aware of there being the slightest interest in what she calls an "obsession with genital sexuality". The message I get from the Church is more in line with her comments in the 7th paragraph. What she ascribes to the Church is the sort of stereotypical nonsense that we get all the time from pundits who just do not know the Church. And it is that which is fashioning our views as to what the Church is, not the reality of what it really is. The people who are obsessed with genital concerns are the media, the rest of us just get on with our lives.

John Anthony, London,

I'm afraid that Nick in France has his theology askew. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception has nothing to with Joseph or the birth of Jesus, and everything to do with Mary herself. It is her conception that is referred to, not that of her son.

Richard Broke, London, UK

The secular world has always & will always consider basic Christian teachings and values as narrow-minded & old-fashioned. And there will always be a desire by some churches and christians to adopt secular values - which change every generation. The Christian Faith has to be proclaimed with love and compassion (it is not always - all Christians are sinners & they can also have frightful rows between themselves). But there are profound theological reasons for the Church's basic teaching.
The American Episcopal Church expresses regret, but has no intention of repenting, as that would mean changing its ways. It is becoming an ever more unorthodox sect.

Dave, Wrexham,

"The churches sexual obsession" is an interesting subtitle to this article. It is as if Libby thinks the rest of society is disinterested in the subject, while of course the truth is that we live in a sex mad society. The fact that the church has had to address this issue comes not from its own obsession, but rather from the way in which our society is seeking to redefine morality. These so called 'illiberal genitally fixated Christians' are in fact seeking to be true to the teaching of the Bible which celebrates sexual love between man and woman within marriage as a good gift from God. This belief is not based on a few verses picked out here and there but the whole weight of the Bible's teaching on the subject from the very beginning where God created them male and female. Certainly this raises difficult issues for those who are homosexually orienteted and the church that seeks to include them; however the solution is not to invent a new version of the Christian faith!

Andy brown, Derby, UK

The new old religion science will force them to come together. It is amazing what self preservation can accomplish.

ben barr, no wilkesboro, usa/nc

As a Jew, i disagree that 'Old Testament Judaism' outlawed homosexuality to counter pagan practices. Judaism outlawed homosexuality b/c G-d forbade it, pure&simple, just as we do not eat pork, or work on the Sabbath. It is anti-thetical to witch-hunt anyone for being homosexual, any more for failing to keep the Sabbath or to refrain from eating pork.
Judaism, unlike Christianity, views sexual knowledge as something positive and pleasureable, but sensitive & needing safeguarding. For that reason, sex is limited to within marriage - not to make life unpleasant, but to preserve its preciousness.
Judaism also teaches that we are here to perfect our characters. Noone claims that this is easy, and we are taught that everyone has their own particular hurdle. Some are given the huge burden of homosexuality to bear; nonetheless, it is forbidden for them to give in to their desires, & it is our job to help them be productive and fulfilled w/that burden, not to condemn them.

Amanda, Borehamwood, Herts, UK

With respect to Libby Purves, whom I have admired for more years than it would be courteous to reveal, homosexuality is not a sin; you will find it filed under ‘love for all God’s creatures’. Gay sex, on the other hand, is in the ‘sex for purposes other than pro-creation’ folder, which is under ‘worldly attractions’. Resisting worldly attractions is an exercise in self-discipline. The Church regards self-discipline as necessary to spiritual advancement. Gay sex is no worse than coveting your neighbours’ wives, and no better either.

Nicholas Wibberley, Neuvic-Entier, France

Libby Purves seems to speak with the voice of Christian love that is too often lacking in our churches. Jesus said, come to me, all who labor and are tired, and I will refresh you. It is hard to find refreshment in today's church, but very easy to find condemnation. They seem to say, come to me, yes, but not if you're gay. It seemed for a while that the Anglicans were getting their act together, realising that gays are just ordinary people. But alas, no. Strident voices hurl condemnation, division and abuse. Perhaps we can form a new church, with Libby Purves as its 'pope of reason'.

Alan Heath, London, England

There's a lot of sense here, but you hope in vain. Churches seem obsessed with sex, the Catholic church in particular. You only have to look at the whole "Virgin Mary" semi-deification to see this. The fact that this married woman still has her (presumably ex-)Virginity celebrated clearly indicates the whole attitude. And although some in the church do gamely try to celebrate human sexuality the whole concept of a celibate clergy doing so is ridiculous.

What was so great about an immaculate conception anyway? I rather enjoyed making my babies the traditional way. Yes I know it meant Joseph had to show some some trust etc, but the message that comes through loud and clear is "have sex to make babies, but wouldn't it be nice if we could avoid the whole messy business."

And as for homosexuality - all the rational science is leading inexorably to the conclusion that this is product of nature not nurture. But (see Darwin, Gallileo) we've been here before haven't we.

Nick, France,

Libby, thanks you so much for your thoughtful and thought-provoking article. It echoes exactly my reaction to the news of the (what should be joyful) possibility of closer communion between our two churches, and also my understanding as it has developed in recent years over sexuality and faith. In my professional life in the Royal Navy I worked to see greater understanding and acceptance of gay Servicemen and women among my straight colleagues, and was immensely heartened by the way people were able to adapt to a changing and more inclusive culture in the workplace. As I worked with and got to know some of my gay colleagues my prejudices were challenged and my understanding of human sexuality developed. As a Christian and Anglican Churchwarden, I long to see greater understanding and acceptance among the faithful of their gay brothers and sisters in Christ. Your article says it all, thank you.

Tim Kingsbury, Blandford Forum, Dorset, UK

The clergy have made a good living out of religion over the years and now the pews are empty they are clinging to the Roman version where they live in the fear of god.

Leave homosexuals alone and get into your priestly dresses and big hats and get out of politics.

carolfarrell, Worcester, England

"T'was often thought but ne'er so well expressed!" I was transported from the depths of despair to new hope by Libby's article.

Pamela Perry, Salisbury, Wiltshire

Libby, Thank you. As you run do have a look at what the Quakers have to say on the subject - that is why I joined them.

Marjorie Lawrence, Norwich, UK

Wonderfully sane, loving and truely Christian article, well done Libby. In her reactionary fury at Libby's humanistic common sense poor Agostina (see above) seems to have got herself into a frightful logical pickle! Heavens above, what is she talking about?!

Derek Cotton, London,

It's not the Church that is obsessed with gay sex. Having been a cradle Catholic and and a regular attender at Mass for all my 26 years I can categorically state that the media has the obsession about sex, be it gay or otherwise. Have a look elsewhere through the pages of this publication and sex will be used to get people to read an article even if it may have very little to do with its content.

Catholic priests may suffer ocassionally in a celibate life; as may married people in their life. However, it is a choice they made. There are plenty of gay people in my parish, the church does not pry into their private lives, but merely offers it's teaching. True, the church does say that the act of gay sex is disordered, but not being gay itself. Any sex before marriage would be categorised this way and the churches teaching in this area is not concerned with the act, but the motives behind it, as Miss Purves clamours for, but has not scratched beneath the surface for.

Toby, London,

Spot on, Bill from Sheffield. Secular society (and, for that matter the Church) simply have to relearn the virtues of discretion. Most people will display an almost saintly tolerance of all manner of behaviour if it doesn't exploit or hurt anyone and is conducted discretely. The same behaviour paraded 'transparently' in public as a 'right' will obviously elicit a very different response. We also need to start questioning the notion that 'transparency' (often simplistically and inaccurately equated with honesty) is the unquestioned virtue it is cracked up to be.

Stephen Wikner, Ely,

Libby,
One small point. The adoption of an exclusively celibate model of the priesthood over 1,000 years ago was not primarily driven by financial concerns about support of dependant children. A stronger basis for it was a sort of "us too" reaction to the growing influence and popularity of the ascetic practices of the hermitic sects. If finances are still a concern, gthe concern is belied by the very successful model of the non-stipendiary clergy in the Anglican Church and the Permanent Diaconate in the Roman Catholic Church. May we learn from each other again.

Patrick O'Donnell, Ascot,

Many thanks for this excellent summary of the current state of the stance of leaders of the anglican communion. Where is the love of so-called conservative anglicans for gays? The delegates wouldn't even take communion together would they! The encouraging aspect is that not all priests and clerics toe the official line: they are sympathetic and supportive of homosexuals. The pity of it is that gays are being put off worshipping God in many churches. Fortunately they can worship at home, in groups or in Metropolitan Community Churches . May all come to know God's love.

Mark, Preston, UK

Jane, Chichago states that the Catholic church opposes gay marriage because it is 'pro-life'. It should therefore follow that it prohibits marriage for heterosexual couples past the age of conception, or on younger heterosexual couples where one is infertile. But it doesn't does it?

MCC, London,

This article is the most awful piffle. I suspect it's meant to be provocative. 'Slick' journalese of the worst kind. Pray indeed,Ms Purves.

Tim, London,

Leviticus chapter 18, particlarly v22 'You shall not lie with with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination'(pp97 English Standard Version), is not unsertain on the fact that all sexual imorality is sin, rebelion against God's perfect rule. Neither is Romans Chapter 1v18-32, which also shows we are all rebels when God's standard is concidered. The only way for any of us to be saved from the conciquence of this sin, eternal punishment, see Matthew chapter 25, is to trust in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross, as John 14v1-7 and Romans 3v21-31 show, and make Him Lord of our lives, as Romans 6v1-14 shows. in reaction to this we have to follow God's commands and we find these commands in the Bible, God's revieled message to all humanity. We can only attempt to follow these with God's help through His Holy Spirirt, which empowers us to overcome ourselves. This is the only way to eternal life; faith in and obidience to Jesus Christ.

Gareth Rhymes, Hull, UK

Libby, for once is wrong on two points. The report about relationships with Rome is not a reaction to present problems with "liberalism". Ecumenical reports have a life of their own and are usually triggered by earlier ones.
She is also wrong to think that "anti"-gay views are based on texts in Leviticus. They stem from a belief in God as creator and thus a respect from the logic that seems to be built into the way we are anatomically etc.
However she is so right to plead that we break away from the sour dynamics of controversy in these matters. If only we could recognise that the homosexual, unasked-for, condition confronts all sides with a genuine dilemma where we should be partners rather than opponents.

Gavin Reid, Beccles, UK

It is not the Churches but the secular world which are obsessed with sex in all its forms.For the Church to abandon--say---its teaching that homosexual acts are sinful would be to abandon its central claim to be teaching the faith of Christ.....in which case there no point to its existenceat all and even its semi-detached members can rest peacefully in a cosy liberal glow like Ms Purves.

brian morris, london, uk

With respect to Libby Purves, whom I have admired for more years than it would be courteous to reveal, homosexuality is not a sin; you will find it filed under ‘love for all God’s creatures’. Gay sex, on the other hand, is in the ‘sex for purposes other than pro-creation’ folder, which is under ‘worldly attractions’. Resisting worldly attractions is an exercise in self-discipline. The Church regards self-discipline as necessary to spiritual advancement. Gay sex is no worse than coveting your neighbours’ wives, and no better either.

Nicholas Wibberley, Neuvic-Entier, France

surely you are confused Libby. Your "genitally fixated illiberal wing" is the grouping that insists on having its view that homosexuality is not a sin validated by the rest of the Church. That group is prepared to cause a schism, not because of motives of "kindness and mutual support", but because it is determined to have its own way regardless of the damage it causes to the Church.

Cliff Pooley, Cheltenham,

Can someone decipher for me what JERRY MCCULLOUGH is saying? I didn't know Canada had developed its own form of English.

John C, London, UK

"Being gay can, without doing any violence to the Gospels, be accepted as a potential route to holiness."

Alleluia for that.

Malcolm, Hayle, UK

I've never been involved with anglicanism or catholicism and I didn't meet anyone who was until recently. Now, having met a few religious types I can say thay they've a knack of tying themselves up in the most terrible knots over the simplest issues regarding sex and it's not a pretty sight. To see apparently normal people wracked with guilt and living in denial of basic human emotions simply because they think they have to fit themselves into someone else's ideas of what is right inspires deep compassion. Religion is a class A drug and should carry public warnings about the damage it can do to your mental and emotional health.

The only unnatural sexual practices are celibacy and life-long monogamy, as Libby says "Christianity could just grow up, and stop treating sex as if it were innately toxic or radioactive and yet irresistibly interesting."

John Small, Faversham, UK

As usual Ms Purves promotes deviant practices.First we had rejoice at first anniversary of civil partnerships and now this.You really cannot comprehend that others might hold different attitudes to you.Are you a frustrated bisexual by any chance!!!

david lawrence, wadhurst, england

Libby for Archbishop of Canterbury!

Neil, Luxembourg, Luxembourg

"the conviction grows that being homosexual is not “unnatural” but just something that occurs in creation, whether we like it or not"
So, what? So are
"promiscuity, infidelity, exploitation, predation — whether gay or straight" likewise. I find it very difficult from Ms Purves standpoint to name a reason why they should be condemned if reference must made to nature , as the way things happen of themselves. On the other hand, if we take a functional notion of nature as normative, homosexual practice is as indefensible as these other practices are. The RCC 's great fault is to keep thinking with a clear head where other christian confessions are falling over themselves to minister to consumerists' urges.

Agostini, Modena,

How resentful and full of subjectivity this article seems!Mrs Purves seems to know almost nothing about religion and I wonder why she thinks she has enough authority to give an opinion on this issue.
If she had ever talked to at least one of the former vicars that converted into Catholicism she would never have written these words. If she had ever read any of the Catholic documents about sexuality she would have found how beautifully they speak of human love and faithfulness and how encouraging these documents are.
Sorry Mrs Purves I do not agree with you, neither does the majoritarian group of believers of this country. Christianity has a lot to offer: a real path to happyness.

Maria Vial , London,

I take much comfort from your eminently sensible article, and - once again - I applaud your understanding of homosexuality. Not that such understanding should be difficult. What is important, as I learnt in my nearly 50 year relationship with another man, is love, not rules. I have found here in Cape Town,a group of other "Catholics on the run"., men and women, (some from my own parish), all devoted to the church, but struggling to come to terms with Rome.They would all welcome your views.
Thanks for encouragement

David Brokensha, Cape Town, South Africa

Not all of us measure our hopes for unity against the yardsticks of gender or sexuality. For some of us it is the will of God, even if frail humanity does not seem to be very good at achieving unity! Please do not make the measuring the faithful by the antics of church hierarchies; if that was the case all voters would be measured by the government of the day

Graeme Buttery, Hartlepool, UK

Rubbish! It is not the churches that are obsessed with sex but secular society - just watch some television. The truth is that the Anglican Church, in this country at least, has been a refuge for gay men for decades, even centuries. My parish has had a gay (if he isn't I'll eat my hat) priest for years - no one cares because he keeps it to himself, it's simply not discussed, a complete non-issue. The problem is that the secular obsession with sex and rights is forcing the church to change its rules and procedures (which are in the main based on scripture) in a way that is unacceptable to many Christians. So now we can't turn a blind eye to homosexual priests and tolerate them in a truly Christian way (the way Anglicanism in this country has been doing for centuries) because secular society has turned it into a question of 'rights'. In other words, the likes of Peter Tatchell have actually made the Anglican Church a less tolerant place for gay men - you really couldn't make it up.

Bill, Sheffield,

The Christian church authorities, or at least the noisy ones, are obsessed with sex, certainly here in the US. I could respect them if they were crusading against rape and child abuse, but they ignore those evils to focus on inoffensive homosexuals who want an equal right to marry. (A few years ago they were complaining that homosexuals were promiscuous and wouldn't settle down.) They want to write their intolerance into the Constitution, as even those opposed to interracial marriage never managed to do. And see how much it profits you to try to point out to them that Jesus never said one word about homosexuality. The new leader of one Religious Right group was removed because he wanted to give more attention to reducing poverty and protecting the planet-- no, that wasn't "Christian" enough. What Bible are these people reading? The world would be far better off if they would focus their considerable energy somewhere above the crotch.

Tina Rhea, Greenbelt, Maryland US

Like the philosopher king I have reached a post Catholic,
post Universal Christian era of my life, and hovering somewhere in the region of Deism....there is a God.
How He is hijacked by humanity allsorts is the modern day reality play, but as you say religion has been hijacked by the Churches themselves, when the whole point of their being is to serve the people and not vice versa.
Why cannot we demolish the protestant and Catholic churches that tower over Clifden, and simply go into
a field and if you want to remember the Prophet, break bread upon a stone and there's an end to it...until the next week!!!
But people wishing to profess their allegiances in this way, without colour creed or cocks, should remember to bring
an umbrella!!!

McGahon, Wicklow, Ireland

What an amazing biblical scholar you are! The Roman Catholic church opposes gay marriage because it is pro-life. It views sex as a life giving act, a spiritual act. It allows us to participate with God in creation. The Church does not oppose homosexuality because it hates. It supports heterosexuality because it loves God.

Jane, Chicago, IL

Such a wise article. It is all so terribly, terribly dispiriting. Thank you.

Kerry, Nottingham,

I would like to see a column written from the viewpoint of the terminally lazy, such as myself, who deeply couldn't care less about whether people are gay, straight, both or neither. As a straight male, it is no one's business other than the lady in question what hair colour, height, body shape etc I might be attracted to, if those were the characteristics that interested me. So I don't care to know whether someone has straight, gay or other interests. I keep my preferences to myself and my partner, I neither ask nor want approval. Likewise, when I make a new acquaintance, I am interested in whether they are interesting, intelligent and fun. I don't care if they are gay, religious or of a different race. But unfortunately we have ideologues, gay and otherwise, who are rabidly intent on forcing acceptance of their lifestyle on others. If only sexual preferences could be left in the bedroom between consenting adults then I think we could all relax and lift our eyes above the belt.

Joe, Tokyo,

Rather intelligent comment, but regrettably unlikely to come about.

cuffleyburgers, Lucca,

Were the Catholic Church merely "agonizing about genital practices," I think it unlikely that it would have spawned such delightful and liberating works on human sexuality as the late Pope John Paul II's "Theology of the Body." While Ms. Purves' comments about the need to consider the attitudes surrounding sex and sexual relationships as well as the acts themselves are refreshing, her presentation of Rome as narrow-minded and uncharitable does great injustice to the wealth of tradition and theology within the Church regarding sexuality.

Sarah P., Leeds,

'You can condemn people for doing bad things, but you cannot dictate where they will see beauty, a reflection of divinity.' - Libby Purves

What a wonderful and well written article.

Daniel, Birmingham, UK

To quote another Pope: 'What oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed'

Stephen Clifford Wilson, Rome, Italy

Perfect, just perfect. Ever the voice of common sense, Libby describes in a handful of words just what is at the heart of human attraction - a perception of beauty, loveability, caressability and companionableness. Sexuality is irrelevant to this, the experience is the same wherever two human beings are involved. If only - if only - the churches could lose their obsession and find compassion, and genuine understanding of humanity, on such a scale.

Alan, Newport, UK

My father always maintained that the fact that the Catholic church survived for centuries "despite the Popes" was a sign of a divine imprimatur. I still hope that this is true, and that we will advance to more tolerant, Christian times. But—as an American aware of political trends in my own country—I'm not expecting a quick turnaround. There is too much political capital (and money) to be gained by damning the different.

Terry, Arroyo Grande, California, USA

Wonderful - rings true in every line.

Harry Willis, Northallerton, N.Yorks ,

Bravo Libby! from Albany NY.

Brian Bush, Albany NY, usa

I don't recall Jesus having a view on homosexuality - other than spending his adult years with 12 other men.
Hasn't it occured to the Church that God made gay people just as he made people who are left handed, or who have absolute pitch or can wiggle their ears? It's a natural variation in the species and is neither good nor bad - just is. If you don't like, find yourself another planet.
Hardly surprising that the places with the least education and the least affluence are the places that have the least tolerance - and at present, the most influence with the church. Why? Because these are the parishes who continue to give the most money and Williams knows that the church - having lost all relevance in the UK is now at the existential mercy of these bigots. They have no more idea of what God intends or expects of mankind than the Spanish Inquisition.

Michael Haas, London, Greater London

Beautifully said and written.

Jennifer, Roatan, Honduras

Libby,

You are really uptight, you just are frozen in finding fault. Perhaps the motives are good, maybe the idea of a higher power is inclusive rahter than your exclusive. You should wake up and smell the Roses. Life is good. Libby wake up.

JERRY MCCULLOUGH, Toronto, CANADA

I have yet to meet a Catholic convert who only converts over the issue of women priests and I don't meet that many Catholic priests or laity obsessed with "genital sexuality". The news picks up on runaway priests who have failed on celibacy. They are far outnumbered by those faithful to their vocation.

Christopher Gillibrand, Brussels (in exile), Belgium

LP says that the churches' sexual obsession makes her despair. Well, pardon me, ma'am, but it isn't the churches who are obsessed but those who are trying to secularise them. One very good reason for not even considering the ordination of homosexuals and women is because the secularists are obsessed with it. If we want to see the results of the advancing secular 'values' in our society, we have only to look around us with a discerning eye. So when the modernists tell us to do this or do that, we ought to be very cautious indeed ; better ro say No now than be sorry afterwards.

Stuart, Chester,

A sane voice in the midst of insanity and cruelty. Thank you, Libby.

Norman Morse, Portsmouth, Virginia, USA

Who is the fearsome bogey this week in the cross-hairs of the ecclesial judges? This story interestingly comes on the heels of the other propagandist "prophecy" that the emigration of Poles to the UK will miraculously and suddenly make Roman Catholics the majority Christian people... or the one a year ago that there are more Muslims going to mosque regularly than Anglicans going to services in the C of E. Many churches proving a very subtle observation made by an unsuspected source, Nietzsche true: There's no joy in it.

Nora, London, UK