Libby,

Your characterisation of the current maths curriculum is unfair. I'm not a teacher and have no vested interest in the current educational establishment but I do have a good maths background (mathematical chemistry at university) and have taught my own and friends children key stage 2, key stage 3 and GCSE maths. The current syllabus is excellent: it does require that children can estimate sums in their head, it does ask them to work out arithmetic questions without a calculator and for 98% of the population is much better than the dry syllabus I was taught as a child (which incidentally included much less applied maths than today's curriculum). Its true that KS2, KS3 and GCSE may give too little emphasis to compound interest and do not cover borrowing as a specific topic and that this omission should be corrected. My point is that the problem is specific and not systemic - in general terms the current maths curriculum is excellent.

Philip (BsC, PhD)

Philip Huxley, Oxford, UK

Why bother teaching young people about debt?

So they can calculate just how much the interest-free student loan they had to take out to go to university actually costs (the level of inflation, for those that don't know - or about £50 per month on a full loan) - meaning that you have to earn about £22,000 just to break even on your debt level (another useful term to teach, maybe)?

Or maybe so they can work out just how much worse off than previous generations they are, generations that never had to fund living through university with credit cards but were given grants and unemployment benefits and never had to pay fees amounting to thousands each year (i.e. everyone in government right now, who made the decision to rid us of the free education they are benefitting from each and every day).

I left university £25k in debt and won't pay it off by 35. How am I supposed to buy a house, have a family, live a life? I don't think teaching prudence will help, we have no choice.

Dean, London,

Well, Andy, it seems to me that your response to this article points out another problem that needs addressing in schools (among other places): reading out of context. Ms. Purves' article was not about housing debt; it was about getting back to teaching our children how to be fiscally responsible citizens and not keeping up a sad trend of racking up more personal versions of runaway debt throughout their lives. Housing debt is only a part of the problem.

If , as you postulate by your highly simplistic solution, increasing available "quality" housing would ultimately reduce most peoples' debt, I'd warrant that the overall levels of personal debt would not change; any reduction in home debt would end up being offset by increases in other areas by the purchase of more unnecessary "extras", or by going into just as much debt or more on a more expensive house. In a way, you sound to me even more like Mr. Micawber.

Maybe Ms. Purves should quote you in an article next time.

Tom vonHatten, Black Jack, USA/Missouri

Ma'am, wonderful, you really understand what is required at schools. I did maths in the 1940's and ALL--yes ALL, our class of 40 ,council school class age 7 knew their tables up to
12x12. Poor and a bit better off alike, [ there were no rich].
I spent the last 12 years of my working life in the investment insurance industry. Almost invariably, younger
customers had the worst basic understanding of money. I really think our old fashioned struggles at school so long ago,
with imperial weights, old LSD coinage, and yards , feet, inches, acres etc really made our brains work hard. Plus of course the weekly Friday morning mental arithmetic exam, every week ,until I left primary school.

David Vinter, Louth, Lincs., UK.

A large part of the problem is that lenders no longer taek into account the ability to pay. I too remember the bank manager and overdrafts, but back in those days it wasnt just the banks that tried to ensure that they only lent money to those who could (and would) repay the loan. Today it is too easy to get a loan,they are, indeed, almost forced upon young (and old) people, then the lenders get very upset when the loan defaults. they really do need to be more responsible when giving loans.

Tony, Oxford,

A young lady I work with announced that she needed some time off work for an appointment with her bank as she and her husband had debts of £24,000. The ‘adviser’ at the bank would, she told me confidently, tell her how she could manage her money and pay off the loan. Hmmm. The following day she was quite distressed. All the ‘adviser’ at the bank had done was to consolidate her debt into one more loan and she was left wondering how she was going to pay this one back. ‘How can I manage my money?’ she asked. I advised her to get an account book, to put her incomings down on one side of the book, her outgoings on the other side and to make sure that the outgoings side always came to the same or less than the incomings side by budgeting for essentials only plus treats only when you can afford them. Just two weeks later she borrowed £200 plus from a friend to buy airline tickets for a holiday!!!

Helen, London , UK

"if you want people to be in less debt ... massively increase the supply of quality housing. This would drive down the cost, the borrowing and the largest debt of the most people. "

Actually this increases the debt by reducing the asset value of the people who are in debt and hence their total wealth.

Such a solution only helps those who do not currently have a mortgage, and would leave those who have stretched themselves to buy a home in a horrific debt trap. There's no quick fix.

JonB, Glasgow, UK

Why did the logger, during the 1970's, conduct his business in dollars? Or did an American conglomerate take over his business?

M. Randolph, Austin, TX

The fact that financial matters have been in the PSHE curriculum for years seems to have escaped the notice of the new minister and all the people writing in the media on this. It is pretty galling as a teacher to see things we already do announced as 'new' initiatives e.g.

- 'Geography to teach Global Warming' - it has done for at least 20 years
- 'Citizenship lessons to teach the history of Britishness.' - history was doing this for decades before the government decided to replace it with citizenship
- 'Functional maths to be introduced' - it was the government that wrote the GCSE that removed the functionality of maths in the first place.

Leo Jones, Holyhead, Wales

Hooray! At last a dose of common sense! I am now retired, but I well remember my mathematical education, as well as morning "mental arithmetic" exercises. As an engineer, I was always taught and expected to be able to come up with the order-of-magnitude of an answer in my head in order to verify what I was calculating by hand. I am constantly amazed that people cannot even add up the cost of a few grocery items and calculate their change correctly, let alone discover the horrors of compound interest applied to a mortgage or loan. I made sure my children were well-versed in basic math, and I am relieved to find that they apply this skill, and that it has saved them from many an expensive mistake.

Adrian, Donegal, Ireland

I actually saved up eighteen thousand pounds to pay for a university degree. However I was a video games programmer. For most people it doesn't make much sense to work for a long time before education, and it is completely unrealistic to pay for a house in cash. So it's debt, debt, debt.

Malcolm McLean, Bradford, UK

not sure how many of the student debt teens are in trouble because of their mortage payments Andy.
Mortgages are a very small part of the debt problems, credit cards being baned would surely be an equally effective answer?

steve, leicester,

I couldn't agree more with Libby!

Inevitably there are some people who are just too stupid and feckless to manage their money, but for a great number of people a lack of understanding about the way they are ripped off by credit leaves them with problems that they would have avoided had they known the true cost of the credit culture.

Helen, Reading,

As a long retired bank manager I can truthfully say that I never wore a string vest or a nylon shirt although I have to confess that in the early days I wore starched collars processed by "Collars". There was also an ominous printed letter which contained the phrase, "the next time you are passing the Bank please call in" , which seemed almost as illogical as the one which requested the customer to "call in at their convenience". In general however I agree with Ms. Purves as there is always a day of reckoning, (or is that R in the logger joke).

David Cotterell, Cheltenham, UK

Couldn't agree with Mr Jones more. Liquidity has powered this country's economy forward in the last 15 years, but whilst it has delivered prosperity and comfort, it has also helped to inflate a balloon over property due to a lack of supply.

How can the coming generations be expected to take a rational view of debt when the biggest exposure they will ever have is ever-more available in terms of income multiples? Noone berates today's first-time buyers taking on a debt burden which in relative terms is perhaps 3x that of 10 years ago - yet buy a sofa on credit and you are reckless??

From what I read the new PM seems more cognisant of the issue than the last, but time and local authorities are both factors that (often) conpsire against - the govt's insistence on measuring inflation in CPI terms assumes housing supply/demand balance sooner rather than later.

Take the heat out of the housing market, and you might stand a chance of young people taking debt seriously.

Sam, bath, UK

Libby, whilst as usual I tend to agree with you. When I was at school in the fifties and sixties good mathematics, especially addition, subtraction etc was taught at school but thrift was largely taught at home.

Not living beyond your income was a necessary way of life for all but the most feckless.

paul buckland, London,

Anything that might raise financial/economic educational levels is welcome. Perhaps our BOE panel might wish to re enrol for the first courses ?
Just be aware that most people's financial problems spring first not from some mathematical deficiency ,but from an emotional inability to deny themselves what they cannot truly afford..as goverment as per the general populace.

Yours
No empathy.

SC, preston,

Great article.

Maybe it will make a small difference to the trillions of debt the people of this country have inflicted upon themselves. I believe it is a modern form of slavery.

Albert Einstein said “The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest”. I don't think I would disagree with that.

Steve, Chester, UK

Well, Andy Jones, if you honestly think that all the 17- and 18-year olds would be buying houses instead of clothes, CD, shoes and clubbing holidays in Ibiza, then you are living in a different country than the England I know and love. It is massive credit card debt, not mortgages, that fuels instability in the economy. These children think the credit card companies are giving them free money. The children of Britain must be taught basic financial management, and basic financial realities. The sooner the better.

Narguesse Stevens, Cambridge, UK

I was interested to read your article on the wires this morning. We've been banging on about providing kids the opportunity to understand the ins and outs of money for years.

We are OINK! the Business Newspaper for Kids, primarily aimed at 7 to 12 year olds. OINK! is pink, like the Financial Times, full of money matters for kids and is distributed FREE each month upon request to schools, libraries, children’s hospitals and sports clubs across the United Kingdom.

We have recently introduced the Piggybank® Fantasy Stock Exchange™ (supported by the London Stock Exchange) which provides kids with a fantastic opportunity to learn all about stocks and shares and play the stock market absolutely free.

Below please find a link to our websites.
www.piggybank.co.uk
www.fantasystockexchange.biz

Ernest Henry (Ed. Pig), London, UK

I think the above comment is just plain silly. It's not about the cost of housing, it's the lack of understanding of debt and being able to service debt (and an element of maturity in deciding if the goods are worth buying on credit, or save up for it).

david bell, london, UK

good article as usual. when i was at school we had a rep from the yorkshire penny bank come in every monday morning and all had our navy blue yorkshire penny savings books ... it meant a lot watching it rise. i remember when my very small son realised any money put into his bank account earned interest - he stopped spending instantly! i also remember saving up for christmas with saving stamps at the post office. a whole different world. and i am not in my dotage - yet!

wendy, hampshire, UK

Not sure its a very good sign that schools need to teach this stuff.. Isn't it a parents responsibility to teach the value of prudence?

I think Warren Buffet made an excellent suggestion when he said stay away from credit cards...

D, Mumbai,

I too would give Balls a "small, nervous cheer" if I thought his plan included any elements of sensible teaching.

alastair harris, Derby, UK

Well Libby, if you want people to be in less debt there one simple and large scale way of achieving it. Increase the built upon land from 3% to 4% and thus massively increase the supply of quality housing. This would drive down the cost, the borrowing and the largest debt of the most people.

But you won't advocate that. Much easier to blame people for feckless spending, eh?

I think I might start the Build More Houses Party and give all at Westminster a nasty suprise at the next elections.

ANDY JONES, Cheltenham, UK