What with all the crowds and the shopping and the formulation of complex family Christmas treaties, you may have missed the enchanting news about Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion. In a good mood Professor Dawkins dismisses all faith as “harmless nonsense... the great cop-out”. In a bad mood he tends to call it a wicked, “infectious virus”. He is not shy to air his views on the subject.
At which point I should say that — though not wholly of his mind — I actually have a lot of time for the Dawk. Organised religions do often abuse their position and their followers, and need to be told so; and his thesis is far more intelligently based than the infantile vitriol of Christopher Hitchens or the sneering cool of most media atheism. Moreover, Professor Dawkins' recent programmes on New Age superstition were more than welcome: the best TV moment of the year was the sight of a dishevelled woman earnestly explaining what DNA was — to the great biologist! — and then offering to “replace” the missing DNA from Atlantis, putting it into his cells by wiggling her fingers and blowing at him. I could watch that clip all day, just for his face.
But the really fabulous news I mentioned is that Richard Dawkins, Prophet of Atheism, has said in a BBC interview that he is not against “cultural” Christianity and “Yes, I like singing carols along with everyone else”. Which raises enough tantalising philosophical and ethical questions to keep us going till Christmas Eve. Dawkins sings carols? Does he sing all the words? Does he boom out lines about herald angels, holy nights, the tender Lamb promised from eternal years? Does he croon: “What can I give Him, poor as I am?” Does the polemicist who gave three eloquent pages to deconstructing the story of St Luke's Gospel happily warble O Little Town of Bethlehem and Once in Royal David's City? Does the man who says that religious education is tantamount to “child abuse” feel wholly comfortable crooning Away in a Manger?
Or does he censor the words? Do neighbours at Oxford carol concerts suddenly become aware that one pleasing baritone has abruptly dropped out before the first “O come let us adore him” and failed to return for the final fortissimo? How can his famous, well-modulated voice choke out the word “adore”, apropos a God he calls a “misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully”?
Well, you see the pleasure. Rewriting the Dawkins carol sheet could keep us all busy. “God rest ye merry Gentlemen, pass on your DNA/ For genes are strong and se-el-fish and will find out a way”... “Silent night, Science is right”... “Away in a helix, no crib for a bed/ The little Lord Genome laid down its sweet head...” It gets tricky; I am having some trouble with the scansion of “While Schrödinger watched his cat by night”, but I'll get there.
But leave the poor man alone. The point is that he obligingly raises the more general question of how the unbeliever, the half-believer and the ex-believer should treat the cultural heritage of Christianity, especially at Christmas. As Aled Jones and Katie Melua averred on the Today programme yesterday, the carols are good tunes and fun to sing, and you needn't be immensely religious to enjoy them. I am certainly not naive enough to believe that everyone who sings them is burning with faith. Some are, and thus have no problem with the adoring, but I suspect that many approach carols in a spirit of cautious unexpressed hope — willing to leave the door just a crack open to the possibility that there might be something or Someone out there, beyond it all, incapable of being pinned down by science or reason but nonetheless wonderful and benign. That, combined with a certain respect for the generations who went before and a wistful longing for the “hopes and fears of all the years” to be resolved one day, whether before death or after, is a reasonable spirit in which to have a good old sing at Christmas.
But if you loudly and repeatedly make a career of denying any possibility at all of the reality of God, how honest is it to sing? How easy to reconcile? How insulting to those who mean every word of it? One can obviously do a bit of sectarian tourism: once at supper with the Chief Rabbi I did sing along with the Yiddish grace-after-meals. But then I am broadly a deist, and if Jonathan Sacks was prepared to tolerate our inaccurate pronunciation and weak grip of the tune, it seemed fair enough for dinner guests to give it a spin. Likewise I admit that the two million of us who sang “Wider still and wider shall thy bounds be set!” on The Mall in Jubilee year didn't honestly want to reconquer India.
But there are limits. If I found myself at a Nazi rally I would not sing the Horst-Wessel-Lied; if I were with the Druids at Stonehenge I doubt that I would don a sheet and join in hymns to the rising sun or whatever, because I think it is all fabricated modern nonsense. And if suddenly transported to that American church where they sing “God hates fags” (it's on Faith Central blog, click and see) and someone passed me a hymn sheet, I wouldn't join in. Not even hum along, however catchy the tune.
Well, it's something to think about in the pre-Christmas queues. Can you sing something while meaning the opposite? Can Professor Dawkins be truly merry at a carol concert while publicly excoriating the “time-consuming, wealth-consuming, hostility-provoking rituals and anti-factual counter-productive fantasies of religion...”?
Or should he stay true to himself, and stick to a verse or two of Frosty the Snowman?
I have been known to croon "I left my heart in San Francisco". Never been there, although, bits of my heart have actually been left on the cutting room floor of the Munich teaching hospital.
Nicely written, taken a little too seriously?
Fred Trellis, Argenbühl,
Why are so many people hung up on whether 25th December was formerly a pagan festival, whether Jesus was really born then, etc. etc.?
I am a Christian and I enjoy the religious element of Christmas because of what it symbolises, ie, that part of the divine became human and shared in family relationships like the rest of us. I don't think it would matter if I celebrated this on 25th September, 1st August or any other date.
I don't think atheists or agnostics should be shut out of church services either (as long as they do not stand up in the middle and shout "Viva Dawkins"!). Surely the church should always have its doors open in the hopes of encouraging belief?
Happy Christmas!
H Grant, NRW , Germany
Christmas is not so much about God or Jesus as about humans, their hopes, wishes and emotions. To be human is the only requisite needed to sing Christmas carols.
Hein Maassen, Leidschendam, The Netherlands
I've just seen this. Fascinated by the idea of Yiddish grace after meals. Please fill us in. Most of the ones I've come across are in Hebrew.
But it is perfectly possible to sing carols and hymns without believing in them as such. It's done all the time here in Israel for instance. If you teach in a Church school as I have been doing, and music no less, you're bound to be asked to run the carol concert and help out at assemblies.
But what is more surprising is the huge amount of church music which is sung all year round by both secular and religious Jews who belong to the various choirs dotted around the country. And many of their performances take place in the country's churches, something you would not see in the UK.
Haifa Technion (arguably Israel's most prestigious science university) is hosting the Haifa Symphony Choir and Orchestra (with yours truly as one of the mezzos) in a rendition of the Ramirez Nativity Cycle in the New Year.
I've just issued an invite to Tony
Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA, Haifa, Israel
I think RD is just being accomodating and shows a preparedness to meet the Christians, if not somewhere in the middle, then somewhere off his turf, at least. Which is way more than can be said for vice versa. I agree with the above, it is a short respite from reality. I saw his intervied on BBC Hard Talk today and he is as sharp as ever.
jan swart, Cape Town, South Africa
How many of those who troop along to midnight mass and take communion, perhaps for the only time that year, really believe? For most of us who grew up in this coun try ,carols are part of our christmas along with the normal hotchpotch of pagan, victorian and family traditions. Even the archbishop of Canterbury says that there were no 3 Kings, no animals and certainly no snow, deep and crisp and even of otherwise.
Lily, Truro,
Are we really all suggesting that the music of the carols is so good, or that the story of the nativity is really so much better than other stories to warrant so many atheists' hypocrisy? I am not aware of another time of the year when people gather in such numbers for story telling or a sing-a-long.
Is it really just nostalgia? Are we simply sentimentally reminiscing about the happy times of our childhood? Why not meet up once a year for a mass playground game, or play pass the parcel every birthday?
Is there nothing more? In our lives, lived by reason alone, can we not come to a better conclusion as to why so many atheists and agnostics attend church at Christmas? Are we so blinded by our certain faith in logic that we cannot see any other possibility?
Perhaps, the God who once put on human flesh still speaks to the depths of our being. Perhaps He still believes that we matter.
Rev Matt Knox, Newcastle,
what a load of hogwash. christianity has been responsible for horrendous throughout its existence, often perpetrated against other christians. only a idiot would think that religious people are necessarily more moral or concerned human beings than atheists/agnostics or those who simply dont care about god. perves's reference to orthodox (or indeed any) jews saying grace after meals in 'yiddish' is an interesting reflection of her profound ignorance and lack of real interest in any religion but her own,
sophia, london, uk
Does Ms Purves imagine that, unless one believes in Odin, Loki and Valhalla, one cannot really enjoy Wagner's Ring cycle?
A Kendal, London, England
Just a small point but Libby Purves should be aware that she was joining Jonathan Sacks in singing the grace after meals in Hebrew, not Yiddish.
Emma Klein, London, England
Rowan Williams recognises that the three wise men are only legend, yet he no doubt sings We Three Kings with passion. Christians sing this carol, and others such as Hark The Herald Angels Sing, about non-existent angels, even though they may not believe in them one jot. The same goes for the star of Bethlehem, and much else.
It isn't just atheists who suspend belief and play the game when carol singing..........
jim, sydney,
I enjoy the Harry Potter movies, even though I don't believe in witches, and I enjoyed the star wars movies with their hint of eastern mysticism, so why shouldn't people enjoy singing carols without believing they are actually true.
And as for the arguments around Thomas Aquinas's third way - this proves nothing. If you accept the argument that we are here so there must be a higher power, why only one, not ten, twenty, a hundred? And if only one, why the one that you believe in, and not Thor, or Baal, or Darth Vader? Hardly a 'proof'!
Chris, Whitley Bay,
Libby reducing yourself to calling Richard Dawkins "The Dawk" demeans you and your article.
He regulalry acknowledges the literary debt we owe the bible, hymns and other religious art. In particular in the The God Delusion where there is several pages of examples. None of it proves any existence of any god whatsoever, but the cultural heritage stays with us.
Face it - religion was a decent stab at understanding the unknowable a few thousand years ago, but its time is done.
Roy Marsh, Singapore, Singapore
Of course, if you stick with the Latin, "Adeste Fideles" will soon be incapable of upsetting anyone and folk will just enjoy the fine tune. It would mean being a bit more insular, though, to benefit from "Stille Nacht" to the same extent.
Brian Jordan, Huddersfield,
Stand Up Richard Dawkins
As another carol-singing atheist, I always use as a defence the words that Denis Potter put into the mouth of Nigel Barton: "Why should God have all the best songs?"
Colin Hazlehurst, Liverpool, England
Carl of Aylesbury, I see you go in for skating around too. There are not Five Proofs. They are Five ways which revolve around the third which is pivotal. I see you ascribe to the fallacy that nothing is good unless brought in yesterday. If you think I'm exaggerating, produce your so called refutations.
Father Bryan Storey, Tintagel, UK
Can one not just sing a joy in our history, or the quaint beliefs of our predecessors, or generalised wonder and delight in the world, expressed through the clumsy grasping for truth of people for whom religion and science were still one and the same? I do.
S Evans, hawick,
I am a christian and i believer, but I agree with most comments that you dont have to be in order to enjoy christmas. Remember that Dawkin in the God Delusion does say "Atheists for Jesus" (p283) - interestingly this very positive spin on Jesus is not mentioned in the index - and he goes onto recognise the power of the messages in the sermon on the mount. Therefore given that Christmas is about the birth of Christ the originator of modern morality and that Dawkins supports his morality it must be completely consistent that he should enjoy Christmas. Has Dawking would say the "Changing Moral Zeitgeist" was moved hugely by Jesus Christ. So, Dawkins and Christians can all agree that the core message of Christ is good and honourable. It was Christ who said - we should all stand for Justice, Mercy and Honesty. The hard bit is the part where we christians believe Christ was the the son of GOD.
David Smith, Reading, England
I'm a cathedral organist - because of this a disconcertingly large number of people mistakenly assume I'm somehow religious. I couldn't care less about God; I just like the music and am paid to play it.
David, Oxford, UK
I'm an atheist and go to the carol concert with my kids. Xmas is a time to get together and celebrate life, family and friends. My kids know I don't believe a word of what I'm singing, but we have a great time. They'll make up their own minds.
As a festival Xmas is basically the Roman Saturnalia celebration adapted and dressed up in new clothes..............
jim, sydney,
Carol singing is fun, but lets face it, does anyone REALLY believe 3 wise men followed a star and brought gifts?
We Three Kings is a favourite carol, even though I'm an atheist.
marty, newcastle,
You have to laugh to be honest, Martin from Ampthill, can you not see how ridiculously funny your final statement is,
"Let them gather round Dawkins like sheep. He can think for them while they sing away..."
Priceless.
Chris Rowley, Newcastle Upon Tyne , England
I was born raised a Jehovah's Witness and of course we did not do holidays.
The real reason is the Watchtower leaders want us to be 'different' for the sake of being different.Jehovah's Witnesses are not 'happier' and are just as dysfunctional as families who do holidays.
Jesus was not born on Dec 25th BUT he also did not have his second coming in the month of October 1914,which is the CORE doctrine of the Watchtower religion.
Danny Haszard, Bangor Maine , usa
How can an insignificant species on a tiny speck of rock in an unfathomable universe, only just evolved, recently but not completely civilised, and barely grappling with the rudiments of science, state with the profoundest conviction and authority that God does not exist, and arrogantly and ignorantly consign any notion of the Supernatural to the realm of children's fairy stories?
PeterB, Lincoln,
I think the point is that like it or not we've all been raised in a quasi-religious society and singing carols is a part of Christmas just as much as mince pies & stuffing. Most of the nativity stories are heart-warming morality tales (big bad Herod vs simple but good shepherds - the stuff of fairy tales the world over). Of course once you start to dissect them the nastiness & brutality of faith starts to emerge, but hey! it's Christmas, and in the right setting I'd no more question the dodgy morality of bringing a child into the world simply to have him killed a few years later than I would criticise Santa's harsh treatment of his long-suffering reindeer. So long as we leave these stories in the world of mythology where they belong we will be fine. It's the peole who believe they are true I find most worrying. And please, Libby, don't mess with the Hitch if you're not prepared to back it up - if you're looking for "infantile vitriol" the Old Testament is a great place to start!
Martin, Stornoway, Scotland
Father Brian Storey cites the third way of St. Thomas Aquinas - which is essentially that we and all the matter making up the universe demonstrably exist, and therefore must have been created by some or other pre-existing supernatural higher being. The logical repost is, which any child will understand, at the expense of a headache, is "Who made God?".
Arnold Ward, Weybridge, Surrey, UK
I share Libby's sentiments - an atheist might well appreciate the 'culture' of Christianity and claim it as his own, but that only serves to betray his or her incomprehension of Christianity, and in some way trivialises it. I call myself a Catholic agnostic ( though many committed Catholics might also see this as trivialising belief). I do so because I know and recognise that one can have a genuine experience of Chritianity by living according to principles of absolute good and evil as opposed to the relativity of these concepts to atheists. And I can also conceive of immortality as the binary opposites of mortality. The consciousness of one's own mortality ( and of human fallibility) can, of itself, make one understand what an extension of mortal life and limited human consciousness might be. Such awareness requires a certain openness to experience, imagination perhaps., of which those claim to be above such superstitious fairy tales are , to my mind, incapable.
MDA, Crouch End,
Another fascinating article from Libby Purves.
After a lifetime of working in the NHS it always amazes me how people can make a living from recycling old rope.
Paul, Rochester, UK
I thought Macelington's contribution interesting. Like him, I've attended gatherings at which I haven't personally shared the beliefs of the people who had generously invited me to celebrate with them. Unlike him, I do care if people feel insulted by my behaviour so unlike him, were I a guest at a wedding, I'd want to do whatever I could to make it a special day for the bride and groom. Becuase of that, unlike him, I'd be intensely ashamed, at what is actually someone else's special day, to concentrate on ensuring that everyone was aware of what I thought. Far better to maintain a low profile and keep my thought s to myself so that i don't spoil my hosts' occasion. I'm really glad that I don't believe I've ever been a fellow guest with someone like him .
Tam Earl-Aine, Cheltenham,
As an atheist, it annoys me when Christians get all possessive at Christmas time. You can get into the spirit of Christmas without believing the ridiculous myths involved. An almost exact comparison is Halloween. How many children dressing up to go trick-or-treating or adults creating pumpkin heads really believe in the pagan mythology of Halloween? It's an old tradition, we know it's not "true" but it's fun to keep it going and have fun with it. Try to imagine a Pagan "claiming back" Halloween and you'll understand how silly Christians who bang on about "the true meaning of Christmas" look. Christians have to try to spoil Christmas for those of us who are enlightened enough to realise that it's all just a bit of fun.
Sam, Bedford,
What is the point of this meandering article? Anyway,Christians should remember that all Christian calendar dates together with much Christian iconography and ritual is borrowed or stolen from Ancient Classical Helenist religion. Pagan Romans exchanged presents during the December solstice festival and indulged during Saturnalia, wore paper hats -celebrated the hope for coming spring suggested by the evergreen plants and made the Sun's Birthday 25th of December holy in respect for Sol Invictus -the invincible sun symbolised behind an Emperor's head by the Halo -a pagan invention. So let's have no more guff about ''the real meaning of Christmas'!
DFavid, Uzes , France
I am an atheist but I cannot help myself joining in whenever I hear a hymn or carol I learned as a child. Rote learning leaves an irradicable imprint on the brain, so whether you become a devout believer or a staunch atheist in later life, the words and the marvellous tunes stay with you for ever. I don't mind one bit and am happy that my grandson will also grow up singing carols. It may be humbug on my part but, as someone once famously said, no-one's perfect.
anne, bournemouth,
Keep up the snide attitude towards Christmas (not "Xmas"). Before you know it, you all will be celebrating Ramadan anyway (and what's more, you won't have any music to enjoy to conceal your feigned devotion)...
Paul Kelley, Columbia, USA
As a completely non-religious person who has sung classical music all her life, from the Brahms Requiem to Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, I can sort of feel where Dawkins is coming from. I've often found myself wondering if it's wrong to love singing "Once in Royal David's City" if I don't actually believe it to be based on fact. Then again, I can enjoy singing "Frosty the Snowman," and I KNOW that's not based on fact. For lack of a better answer, I've come to the conclusion that if I have any religion at all, it's music. Sometimes the beauty of the music is in itself enough.
Shelley, Boston, USA
On Saturday I had a bit of spare time to kill in Salisbury, so I visited the Cathedral, which, incidentally was being used for the NHS Carol Service. I went and had tea in the Cafe there, and got out my copy of 'His Dark Materials' to read. How absurd it must have looked for someone to be reading atheist material in a house of god?
Well not ridiculous at all. What I liked about the Carols, and I'm sure I'm not alone with this, is the immense feeling of nostalgia. Remembering your childhood Christmasses and how excited you used to be. It wouldn't make a difference if the music was in fact "In the air tonight" by Phil Collins. It happens to be Christian inspired, and no one really cares.
So i suspect, Libby Purves, that those who sing along and listen to those good ol' Carols, are in fact, excercising their nostalgic, reminiscent memories for enjoyable and happy times.
What's the harm in that?
R J Whitney, Newbury,
As an atheist I never had a problem with religion, just some its of the bigots, after all, don't Christians have a saying that the Devil's favourite place is sitting in church?
Well my current problem with these devils lies with a politically orchestrated branch of American evangelicals who are trying to gnarl every bit of progress humanity has made in the past 2,000 years. Their pestilence on the modern mind is not only insulting it is offensive, and if they got their way, extremely dangerous too.
We can all sing Hymns and hail our cultural past, but that does not mean we will bend to their particular will nor succumb to the wedge which they are driving into our society.
I wish you all peace and sanity this Christmas.
Graham Clarke, London, England
I don't think you can put Christmas carols in the same category as pop songs - they are hymns just like any other (they're all in Hymns Ancient and Modern!), written for purposes of worship, only more widely known. They are only one set of many hymns that are meant to be sung at particular times in the church calendar, such as 'Thine be the Glory', which is heard at Easter. At our church we used to sing Advent hymns until Christmas Eve, when we could finally break out the carols (I used to love singing 'Joy to the World' at the end of midnight mass)
As someone said ealier though, many works of art and pieces of music are on religious themes. I sing with my university choral society; we performed Bach's St Matthew Passion one year, and I certainly don't think anyone felt it was necessary that we all believed in the words in order to do it justice. It's just a fact that most choral music is religious in nature, so that's what we sing.
I'm a "cautiously hopeful" scientist by the way
Helen McPhee, Durham,
Since Libby acknowledges that Druidism is fabricated nonsense why does she have such difficulty in seeing that Christianity and all other world religions are equally the products of fertile imaginations and wishful thinking? She rejects Odin, Allah, Shiva, Jupiter and goodness knows how many other 'gods' so why does she cling to her belief in just one for whom there is no more proof than for any of the others?
kae corwyn, bristol,
I completely agree that atheists can enjoy the stories or songs of religious nature without understanding or caring for the religious meaning. I've never met an atheist that is this greatly immoral person. Though, I question your dedication to atheism since you have no problem proclaiming the name of God. As a person of Roman Catholic faith, I personally feel that all you atheists should be at work on Christmas Day, because guess what it is first and foremost a religious holiday. Apparently it comes from that "Christ" part.
Danielle, Newport Beach, CA,
Is it not possible to enjoy Wuthering Heights without believing Cathy and Heathcliffe really exist?
Congratulations on the name-dropping though. Someone might think you actually know what you're talking about.
Daniel Greenwood, Shrewsbury, Shropshire
The thing about religious bods is that they don't understand how an atheist can enjoy, for example, singing carols, and can even sing about "herald angels, holy nights".
They point about being an atheist is that the nativity story (like all good stories) is enchanting, captivating and enjoyable.
Just because a person may not believe in Santa - doesn't prevent that person from singing christmas songs about him!
In addition, atheists are just as 'moral' as a religious person - many would say more so as they do not need the threat of eternal damnation to keep them on the straight & narrow, and are also less likely to be brainwashed & led astray by the promise of eternal paradise. As such an atheist can enjoy a story / song with a good 'moral' behind as much as any old religous sheep-follower....
Victoria, London, UK
i agree with Keith Benthams view. How many churches are built on Pagan sites? Quite a few i think, especially round lancashire. Nice one Keith.
mj mook, preston , lancashire
It IS a bit insulting for a non-believer to participate in the religious aspects of Christmas. It demeans and lessens the meaning. We're not talking about a throw away pop song. We're talking about spiritual belief and religious doctrine.
Yes, I understand the Pagan history behind Christmas. The date and lights and such aren't the message. It's the peace and love. That's key. Don't get caught up in the details. Any clergy would admit to errors in the details. The message, however, has always been constant. God is alive and well in this world. One can believe in science and God at the same time. It just takes an open mind from both sides.
I 'll just never understand the anger and mistrust from diehard athiests. There's so much wasted energy there.
Mark, Washington D.C., USA
Aren't all you atheist lucky that God is good to give you a free will. But luckily we have people who believe in God otherwise we will have a whole bunch of selfish people who thinks they evolve from animals. Would a lioness feed a hyena? Absolutely NOT. Thank God for the Red Cross, Salvation Army, churches who look after widows and orphans, homeless and the needy. Can you imagine a world full of atheist? All the self righteous people, start defending this letter.
Virginia, Brisbane, Australia
Danny Haszard is missing the point. The Emperor Constantine, who was a sun worshiper, chose the25 Dec as Christ's birthday as that day was celebrated by his army as the day Mithras was born of a virgin, a long time before Jesus became a twinkle in Joseph's or the Holy Gost's eye!
Wulfhardt, Cymer,
Some of the best carols are light on religious content but strong on Christmas spirit. For example Good King Wenceslas, We wish you a Merry Christmas (aka Figgy Pudding), Jingle Bells. Why not ? As an unconvinced churchgoer for many years I tend to agree with Dawkins about the appeal of Christianity being in its culture and ethos rather in its inherited doctrines
Richard Shaw, PinnerqMiddlesex,
As a Christian, I sincerely wish all of you atheists a joyous holiday season. I am not going to try to convince you to open your minds and hearts to the profound joys of the Christian faith but I do wish you whatever joy you may find.
Scott, Houston, Texas, USA
I don't care at all if atheists want to sing Christian songs. Sure, they mean more to me than them. I can appreciate the tune and the content. They only the former, but that's fine.
I attended a Sikh wedding recently, and observed all their traditions, not with personal meaning, but out of respect for my bethrothed friends and reverence for the Gurdwara. It was a bright and joyful occassion, even though I didn't have clue what was going on sometimes!
I'd only be concerned if the atheists start to club together to try to ban religious expression. Let them gather round Dawkins like sheep. He can think for them while they sing away...
Martin, Ampthill, Beds
Stand Up Richard Dawkins.
As another carol-singing atheist, I like to use as a defence the words that Denis Potter put into the mouth of Nigel Barton: "Why should God have all the best songs?"
Colin Hazlehurst, Liverpool, England
Do Christians put up pagan trees in their homes at Christmas? Do they tell their young children about Father Christmas?
Of course - and why not?
We don't have to live every second of our lives according to a prescribed dogma. We can live as we wish.
I too am an atheist who likes carol services. So what? Am I to deny myself harmless pleasures to spite myself for my lack of faith in a sky fairy? What madness.
Steve B, Birmingham, UK
sorry, but i agree with libby. i am Jewish, & while i think that some carols have great tunes, i would never sing them or actively listen to them, b/c i know what the words mena & they don;t mean something i subscribe to!
but i see no contradiction in libby joining Jonathan Sacks in grace after meals, since she would be happy to thank the same G-d that he is thanking - she just would use a different language.
amanda, london,
Christina from Bath,
Do you honestly think that the 25th of Dec has anything to do with the birth of the son of god other than that a group of people decided that it was a good date to say it was? Do you have no clue at all as to the origins of this day that you celebrate? Please read the history surrounding this festival and look into the hundreds of years of debate before the date was actually settled upon.
To make the statement "butt out of Christmas and leave it to those who know what it really means" shows the delusion of faithheads.
As to you being offended by people calling your belief a fairytale, this is your right, as it was the "journalists" right to mock the druid ceremony and beliefs in the article above. Offence and insults are not the exclusive rights of relgious folks.
The pope recently caused me great offence by stating that some of the greatest atrocities of the 20th century where carried out in the name of atheism, how much more offensive do you want?
Chris Rowley, Newcastle Upon Tyne , England
I don't understand why anyone would think an athiest (or agnostic in the deistic sense) can't enjoy Christian holidays, traditions and stories. To me, doing this without believing in God, or in any religious stories in fact, is no different to honouring the Norse gods, by calling some days of the week after them (in both Danish and English), or by enjoying the stories about them, without believing in them either. What's the difference? Christianity is part of our history and culture too!
Thomas, Copenhagen, Denmark
Dawkins is one prominent member of that group of clever-sillies which seem grossly over represented in our current, and I jest, elite.
For there is a naivete in their touching satisfaction with the proofs of the observable and of simple logic. Such folk in earlier centuries would have denied the existence of radio waves as a result of having had no way of detecting and measuring them. Yet these folk are willing to venture definitive statements on the existence of what people call 'spiritual entities'.
One thing many religions teach is humilty. But ofcourse not being a believer Dawkins has little contact with that virtue.
william shepherd, zoeterwoude, netherlands
The article is rediculous. Singing carols at Christmas comes from those enjoyable times when we all went along with the "Greatest Story Ever Told". Subsequent knowledge/belief or lack of, gained by life itself may, as in my case confirm it a myth but a good sing-song remains just that. We know the words just as we might of a 'Long Way to Tipperary' and what's wrong with that?
I deny a god but I do like a 'Silent Night'.
Jim Hatch, Acapulco, Mexico
I have spent many years in non-Christian countries where people love singing Christmas carols, even though the meanings of the words escape them. I'm an atheist, and my favourite song at Christmas time is 'O Come All Ye Faithful'. Am I betraying my beliefs for singing along? Is any non-Christian also at fault for singing traditional Christian songs like 'Panis Angelicus'?
Don't be silly, of course not. These are beautiful songs, sung to express admiration for a religious culture. By singing these, I'm sure I'm doing so to praise the people who created such wondrous music. These songs are not prayers -- let everyone enjoy them if they may!
Kiley, Los Angeles, US
'Christina (the clue's in the name)'
(Christina from Bath)
What an amusing little rant. Is the above comment meant to suggest that you are Christ or that Christmas is about you personally?
Anyway this is precisely the sort of incoherent thought that the a life of faith at the expense of reason instills.
J, London,
It's a land where 'tacit atheism prevails' (Lord Carey of Clifton, former Archbishop of Canterbury). Yet every year, local parish churches throng with 'carol christians' who come to watch shows and pretend with their kids that they have faith. Who's surprised that Richard Dawkins joins his unchurched and dechurched colleagues for annual festivals of post-christendom nostaligia? He just has the class to admit what others really believe, when they can be bothered to think about things beyond the mortgage, youth crime, footie and a new hob.
There is simply no way that churches who host thousands at their annual Christmas events, yet are lucky to have a hundred on a Sunday, can be very serious about faith anyway. They're more worried about surviving insolvency, clergy cuts and clergy consolidations (five parishes per priest, and not because there's a clergy shortage).
Maybe the local CofE parishes should start charging admission like so many CofE cathedrals are forced to do?
Darryl, Bishop's Stortford,
Oh dear, I am a born-again atheist who has given his heart to Richard Dawkins precisely because of his wonderful book, The God Delusion. I have now read this book numerous times and can find no rational way in which to refute his polemic against religion. Maybe, Libby, you could give us some refutations at your leisure? I am genuinely interested to see whether Dawkins can be answered by anyone at all.
As for carols, yes, I still love them for their child-like sentiment although the enhanced versions purveyed in supermarkets are an annual ordeal.
Michael, Cape Town, South Africa
Luckily, there are many pre-Christian and non-Christian carols and traditions, Deck the Hall, Wassail, etc. Do not forget the Church planted Christmas on an existing holiday.
smith, Beirut,
"if I were with the Druids at Stonehenge I doubt that I would don a sheet and join in hymns to the rising sun or whatever, because I think it is all fabricated modern nonsense."
If you had been raised as a child carrying out this tradition, then grew up and made your own mind up about it being 'fabricated modern nonsense' I think that you may very well don a sheet and join in, you could be considered a cultural druid. It would be ingrained in you that this isn't a bad thing, it's just holiday tradition, whether you believed it or not.
Now take that and apply it to cultural christians who, once they had grew up and made their minds up that the bible was 'fabricated old fashioned nonsense' don't see any harm in singing a christmas carrol.
Chris Rowley, Newcastle Upon Tyne , England
So many of you are missing the point! You are all banging on about glorous music and jolly tunes and why cannot anyone sing them - but the issue here is not with the music BUT THE WORDS THAT ACCOMPANY THEM.
Personally I wish al you athiests would just butt out of Christ-mas (the clue is in the word) and leave it to those who know what it really means. And to the "fairy story" brigade - your remarks are insulting and deeply offensive and one day you will find out just how wrong you are. It's such a shame - because God (that's God - not god) speaks so very highly of you
Christina (the clue's in the name)
Christina, Bath,
Surely you don't have to believe the fairy story to be a fan of the Wonderul Wesleys? What I love about Father Xmas is that it provides such a rite of passage. One day every parent has to fess up that Father Xmas doesn't exist, the child has broken through the Being Fibbed To barrier. If only the priesthood would similarly fess up.
John Ledbury, Kings Lynn, England
Whatever is said about Dawkins his arguments are consistent and stand up to scrutiny. This is unlike the vast majority that the atheist community fields against the religions.
If we all stuck absolutely true to our principles then I think most people would find it impossible to operate in our society. As a practising Christian I don't mind the fellow; it's those with arguments where you could drive a truck through the gaps that I find objectionable.
i.e., Norwich, The ancient kingdom of East Anglia
I was born raised a Jehovah's Witness and of course we did not do holidays.
The real reason is the Watchtower leaders want us to be 'different' for the sake of being different.Jehovah's Witnesses are not 'happier' and are just as dysfunctional as families who do holidays.
Jesus was not born on Dec 25th BUT he also did not have his second coming in the month of October 1914,which is the CORE doctrine of the Watchtower religion.
Danny Haszard, Bangor Maine , usa
I can't see why anybody has to believe the words of a song they enjoy singing. It would be like saying you are not allowed to read and enjoy a fictional book, because you can't believe they are true. I am a "devout atheist", but I feel no problem in enjoying a good piece of music, even if it arose from somebody's religious beliefs. Our heritage has come from a christian background, and I have no problem with the fundamentatl ethics that come from it, I just don't see why I have to believe in a god to be a good person, or to enjoy a carol or two!
MBee, London,
Why shouldn't an atheist (like I am) be moved by the beauty of music, whatever its inspiration may be? Some of the world's best music (and paintings and sculptures) are inspired by religion: wouldn't it be extremely silly to negate a thing of beauty if it is inspired by a thought you don't share? Cannot Christians be moved by the Taj Mahal?
Erik De Koster, brussels, belgium
Father Storey, I assume you mean Aquinas' third "proof" (ex contingentia)?
It's a sham - and quite clearly stuck in the 13th century in terms of scientific knowledge! Is this the best you can do as a Catholic: regurgitate a 750 year old argument that's been refuted more times than anyone cares to remember?
Carl, Aylesbury, UK
Christians surrender their right to complain about non-believers singing their songs when they insist on the right to indoctrinate us as children. End of.
Stu, London,
I'm an atheist and I like singing "to be a pilgrim". It's a great tune and at the end all the fantasy figures (hobgoblins, foul fiends and god) fly away leaving me to get back to real life.
Neil, Southampton, England
The thing that puzzles me about religion is why if God is all powerful he created a world where every living thing lives by devouring other living things whether animals or plants. Very wasteful. Also, if we are made in the image of God what does God eat?
Doug George, Antibes, France
You don't have to be a Christian to sing carols any more than the actor playing Captain Hook in a panto has to be a pirate. In both cases it's clear the person is performing for the sake of art. Christmas is pretty much an entirely secular affair, and carols are as much a part of that as pantomime. Joining a church congregation on a Sunday and singing devotional hymns is different, the intent there is clearly to mean the words rather than merely performing a piece of music.
Marcus Hill, Manchester,
A decent article Libby, but I have to pick you up on one point. I do honestly believe that you have read the God Delusion, unlike the vast majority of its critics, but when you say "But if you loudly and repeatedly make a career of denying any possibility at all of the reality of God..." you are surely forgetting that he does not deny any possibility of god, just that he/she/it is extremely unlikely. Indeed there is a whole chapter called "Why there is almost certainly no god"
Mark Allen, Nottingham,
Atheism doesn't have to mean actively being militantly against religion. It just means you don't believe in mythical Gods, and in turn, in what you sing. You can sing a carol and not mean it in the same way you can sing a trashy pop song or a love song to a sex you're not attracted to and not mean it.
Atheists shouldn't be criticised for not being flag-waving militants, hellbent [can I still use that word?] on removing religion from all.
fenya, UK,
What utter tosh. Christmas is a magical time of year with brilliant songs, wonderful traditions and a rip-roaring tale of peace and goodwill to all men at its heart. How dare you suggest that just because I don't believe a single word of it that I am not entitled to join in!
A profound atheist who goes to midnight communion every Christmas eve and LOVES it.
George, La Rochelle,
"But there are limits. If I found myself at a Nazi rally I would not sing the Horst-Wessel-Lied;"
I'm sure all those rallies were packed with people who mistakenly believed they were in the few percent who dared stand up to the regime. Surely the point of Prof Dawkins' admiision is that neither you nor anyone else can ever make such a claim until you've been there.
The point being, that ritual triggers things deep in our brains, pleasant things, and social ritual even more so. Why else spend every Saturday watching a group of grown men chasing a pig's bladder about? The tragedy is that sometime in the Bronze Age, someone found a way to harness the power of ritual for political end in the particular way that's come down to us as Abrahamism.
I personally feel it's a waste of talent for Prof Dawkins not to be investigating just why this happens, maybe with greater understanding we could cure the pathology that afflicts people who think a god chooses them to lead their country.
Ian Kemmish, Biggleswade, UK
This debate is very interesting but honestly the most interesting bit of it was the new words for the carols - much as I hate to say this, but keep up the good work Libby!
Robert, Bracknell Forest,
Communal music/singing predates christianity by thousands of years. It is a natural form of expression that has been employed by many religions.
Richard Dawkins knows what he believes. He looks at the facts and makes a clear interpretation.
How many of the practising christian factions would know or understand the 39 Articles and believe the interpretation?
Paul , northwich, england
Never mind the hymn sheets, Professor Dawkins needs to apply himself to the study of the third way of St. Thomas Aquinas which he skates around in his 'God Delusion'.
Father Bryan Storey, Tintagel, uk
They just can't resist trying to domesticate the ideas that Dawkins has released into the wild. These Christians really - no, I mean really - can't comprehend that others don't share their beliefs.
Barry Henderson, London, UK
Well done Ms Purves. I can now see a whole new industry growing up to supply new non-religious words to the nation's favourite carols.
Stewart Ware, London, UK
It is possible to accept cultural heritage whilst applying Nelson's patch to the theocracy. It is politeness to do so. There is evidence of evolution in contempary yuletide. Happy Christmas, war is over.
Geoff Sargent, Cardiff, UK
Ole! I like to sing Metallica's Sanitorium or Fade to Black... looks like I'm screwed. Kind of fond of Britney's Hit Me Baby One More Time too.
Matthew, London, London
Well, that just about proves my point. I refuse to sing Chriostmas carols or Christmas songs of any kn id, because of the rampant hypocrisy in the world today regarding Christmas.
I am a Christian, a preacher, and not a Jehovah's Witness. Christmas, as a religious festival is a non event for me. Jesus was certainly not born on December 25th. That date was chosen by theh Roman church from a pagan day. Today it has returned to a pagan festival.
Most of the trappings of Christmas day owe their origin to the Victorian age, indeed, in Albania, once a truly athiestic country, it is all used for New Years celebrations.
But I enjoy being with family. We give gifts. We enjoy a meal special together. But not in a religious sense.
Dawkins? He is just taking a strong line as he does to sell his books. He doesn't really believe all that he writes, of that I am sure.
Happy New Year everyone!
Peter Hodge, Skelmersdale,
Kevin, get a grip of reality!
Virginia, Brisbane, Australia
Yes, Andy. I'm an atheist, so I refuse to attend any event held in a church building. I once severed my ties to a volunteer group because it chose to start holding its meetings in a church hall.
Robert, Sacramento, California USA
I think Dawkins simply makes the point that one does not have to be a Christian to wish for peace on Earth and goodwill towards all men - at this time or any time of year. It could be argued that it is in our genes.....
Alan Boyd, Beijing, China
What a silly piece. Do you believe in Santa Claus? Might you sing Santa Claus is Coming to Town? Do you believe in flying reindeer? Are you really dreaming of a white Christmas?
And as for the true believers, I so much agree with Macelington--that is their problem if they don't like us atheists singing without believing.
j, adelaide, australia
Well, this tells us more about you , Libby, than anything..... not waving, but drowning seems to capture it.
Happy Christmas
William Roach, saratoga springs, usa
Let's face it - christmas carols generally have good tunes... I am as much an atheist as Richard Dawkins, and overtly christian songs usually make me intensely uncomfortable, but sometimes I think why not sing along to a familiar tune, especially when everyone is already well aware of where you stand. Still, that said, I once went to a church wedding in which I refused to participate in anything other than a booming redention of Jerusalem, which I made it audibly clear I was only singing because it's associated with rugby!
And as to 'How insulting to those who mean every word of it?', here's some honesty: I couldn't care less - in the words of Bill Hicks, "well, then forgive me".
Macelington, Nottingham,
Yuletide actually has nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity.
The Romans had Saturalia. Saturn was a kindly god of olden days who had a large white beard and brought gifts into the household.
The Celts and northern Europeans celebrated the solstice as the return of light. Holly, ivy, and mistletoe symbolise the promise of new life in the spring.
I believe middle-eastern shepards put their flocks out in June so Christmas should be in June.
The clever church couldn't abide the pagans having a big jolly mid-winter party keeping them in touch with nasty nature so they decided to steal it; hence Christmas. Just as they stole the spring rite of Easter; incidentally named after a Norse goddess.
The bottom line is that organised religion is about power. Cultural theft is totally legitimate to those who worship power.
There you have it, lies and theft. That sums up Abrahamic religion as opposed to pagans who just wanted to celebrate Nature and life. As we all do, Dawkins included.
Keith Bentham, Wigan, Lancashire
By your arguments, it would be hypocritical for an atheist to attend a funeral or a wedding, if it was held in a church.
Andy, Newcastle,
Most interesting. So do you have to be a communist to sing John Lennon's 'Imagine.' Does a young girl doing a karaoke version of Madonna's 'Material Girl' have to be just that. Can only loner invdividualists do Chesney Hawks 'I Am The One And Only.?'
I could go on and on, or may I suggest however, that singing is performance, like acting, and one can enjoy the music of a particular song, acting the part while singing it for the duration of the song, then return to the reality. This is all Dawkins is doing.
Kevin, Nottingham,