Sally Donovan: "We can all argue about the age of so called 'adulthood' .... But it certainly isn't 13 - those children could not live a life which is independent of their families while education is compulsory. "

Then get rid of compulsory education. It is a form of slavery that most young people loath: learning useless knowledge, little of which they will use and most of which they will forget. They should be apprenticed and learn material relevant to concrete and useful activities that they are actually doing.

Greg Lorriman, Leatherhead, UK

Close to despair when I see the "'orrible yoof" around our town,my faith was restored yesterday when I attended a local Arts Society and we were entertained,nay,enchanted,by a local school's orchestra(admittedly hand-picked,talented(middle-class?) teenagers .What a joy! I can't imagine some of our youngsters being so well brought up,nurtured,given their obvious(musical talents)free rein.Some parents must have worked hard at this and,I dare say, made huge sacrifices.What on earth can be done for the others?Something must be or our society is in danger of disintegrating.So sad.

HD, WsM,

I feel that a lot of people don't realise that 'having a baby' really means 'having a person' and that from birth parents are responsible for safety, love, support and interest so that the developing person feels they mean something in the world.

I waited to have a baby, not sure that I wanted such a responsibility - we ended up having two daughters and I believe that their presence in our lives has made my husband and myself, ordinary people, extraordinarily lucky in the pleasure that we take in their company. We had no secret method of upbringing; we were simply interested in them, always talked to them and listened to them, laughed with them and gave them our trust. Why don't they take drugs or exhibit other forms of self-destructive behaviour? I hope it's because we made them feel worthwhile people and that they choose to take care of themselves because of that.

Barbara, Bonn, Germany

Yes, you can only live by example: 'do as I do, not as I say'. We can all argue about the age of so called 'adulthood' , it's what parenting they get before that that matters. But it certainly isn't 13 - those children could not live a life which is independent of their families while education is compulsory.

The me, me, me society for both adults and kids, will ensure that the necessary sacrifices demanded by parenthood are not made. The result is future adults who lack boundaries, a sense of responsibility and emotional security. Read Skinner and Clees 'Families and How to Survive Them' to find out how influential first families are for second ones.

Sally Donovan, Hampton, uk

Some parents are not willing to grow up and take responsibilities. Looking on mumsnet I have found mothers who think that it is perfectly acceptable to be a parent and take, in their words 'recreational' drugs,-i.e.illegal drugs. As a parent you can only lead by example, and some of the examples are pretty poor.

Jenny, Reading,

I believe that most parents don't want children. They want little adults that can reflect positively on the parents. It's all about the adults.

Bruce L. Northwood, Silver Spring, USA

"Even if puberty strikes early, these are still children."

By whose definition: the law? Nature is no longer recognised.

If a 13 year old is capable of having children then plainly that 13 year old is not a child. British law is arbitrary.

In older cultures adult hood is formally recognised at 12, and the young adult initiated in to the dignities of responsibility, and indeed given responsibility. Mahatma Ghandi had his first child by 13, and the Virgin Mary is thought to have been about the same age when she conceived Christ. St Elizabeth of Hungary had three children by 18, to her beloved husband.

We cage the young in schools, and discourage any notions of marriage: their resentment and frustrations should be no surprise. They are effectively slaves, forced to learn meaningless facts that they soon forget. We should be giving to them that which allows them to mature, rather than withholding their rights in the mistaken belief that they must be mature first.

Greg Lorriman, Leatherhead, UK

Sadly children don't mature as fast as they once did. My father , who had to fight in WW2, had to grow up very fast and the children born when their fathers and mothers came home had to mature fairly quickly also. During my school years in Surrey, not one girl got pregnant nor did anyone do any drugs, sniff glue or indulge in any other self destroying behaviour. I did go into pubs with my friends when I was sixteen but we didn't get drunk, get into fights nor are we alcoholics now. I had a wonderful childhood, most of which was spent outside with wonderful friends and although we did get into some mischieve, it was nothing the local policeman couldn't sort out with a clip around the ear. So, please don't say kids grow up quicker now as they do not. Not even close.

tony freeman, tampa, USA

It's not difficult. The boundaries between adulthood and childhood used to be naturally defined, quite literally; by the sexual and reproductive function.

The contraceptive and abortive cultures destroyed the line between adulthood and childhood, and in so doing, childhood and adulthood themselves.

A psychiatry lecture I watched recently, which related to female homosexuality, pointed out an alarming trend: that many children are showing the emotional and psychological signs of child abuse without ever having been physically abused. The lecturers point was that society now effectively sexually abuses children, through the culture as a whole.

Adults have forgotten that the sexual world is powerful and dangerous, because they imagine they are insulated from the consequences of irresponsibility within it. And so they have failed to protect children from it, with devastating consequences.

Hugh Oxford, Edinburgh,

Libby Purves is right. I used to think the problem with parents was a collective loss of confidence about bringing up their children; now, I think parents really want to be kids themselves & are glad to have theirs off their hands asap. But a really unfortunate trend is parents vying to outdo each other with tales of how much their kids despise them, such as journalists who get their 1000 words done proudly boasting of being told they're embarrassing, decrepit, 'too past it' to dance or, in fact, too old to do anything except shell out. They fall over themselves to tell about appalling behaviour & staggering rudeness or lack of respect. A woman (aged 42) told me her 11-year old daughter had said "you're old, aren't you Mum?", then "gonna put you in a home when I'm 18 and take all your money". Her mother thought it funny, happily agreeing she 'dented' the girl's 'street cred' if they went out together. It could be of course that she thought the girl dented hers.

anne, bournemouth,

So, according to the "experts", I am denying my son his basic human rights by limiting him to 1 hour per day on his Wii and not on school days. Fascinating! Good article. I find the survey figures surprising - the majority of my friends who are parents share broadly similar views to you, and whilst we struggle against the pressures of life that you describe, most of us are trying to bring up our children along those lines. And the parenting doesn't stop when they reach 18 either!!

David, Matlock,

I love articles like this that quote statistics that don't make sense - and then expect the rest of us to understand and agree with them.

"...more than half of under-16s are allowed out after 11pm"

So, of all the kids aged 0-16, more than half of them are allowed out after 11pm!

Wow, that's a lot of 6, 7 and 8 year-olds out on our streets late at night.

Kenny G, Brighton,

Raising children into happy contented adults can be a very difficult job...you often don't see the results of your actions for several years...and with the work and media led pressure of modern life it's not getting any easier....

It used to be the extended family that provided support and advice, but now? Parenting classes at school anyone? Or are we so British that we don't like being told what to do.....

Neil Watkinson, Ipswich, UK

At 13 they should be turfed out, given their own small place and made to earn a living, or starve.

They need responsibility over themselves, or they will use their adult capabilities for irresponsible ends.

But the unnatural welfare state has destroyed the meaningfulness of work.

Greg Lorriman, Leatherhead, UK

Spot on Libby. We should not chuck them out to fend for themselves. Those that do are in Hovisland, but in Hovisland the kids would have been working or doing chores and still have been within the adult sphere. We have invented adolescence and made it into something like the behaviour of some animals with their male teens sending them out into roving gangs.
I would also like the media to bring back the word little when speaking of something happening to small children . It seems to have gone in favour of "young" young is anywhere up to 25. "Little" demands care, protection, and sympathy.

Gloria Smith, UK, UK

"There are plenty of reasons. Parents could be holding down two jobs or more, because of the absurd price of homes and government's droolingly incompetent failure to plan for a rocketing immigrant population and the fallout from council house sales"

Exactly what relevance has the immigrant population or council house sales got to do with this to the rest of this article?

Jeff Fox, Huddersfield,

It's nearly forty years since I first went to grammar school, but I recall being regarded as a "young adult" at least by the second or third form.

To me, the difference is more that in those days the word "adult" was not used to describe outsized spoilt brats given license to behave in any way they saw fit.

Ian Kemmish, Biggleswade, UK

All this confirms my view that the Prep/Public schools have got it right: transfer at 13 - especially for boys - when they are better able to cope with children 5 years older. The gulf between 11 and 18 is too much for the younger child to handle effectively.
Tony Boardman
Retired Head

Tony Boardman, Mere, Wiltshire UK

The first and most influencial teachers in your life are your parents. They are also the ones who have the legal sway over a child until the child is 18.

tina, kent, england

Try dealing with a bright, wilfull and thoughtless 15 year old daughter. It is almost impossible to retain any remnants of sanity at the same time - I believe they become human again around seventeen, so I plan to ignore her as much as possible until then. Our rights focused society doesn't have the necessary parameters in place for this very difficult age group. When I was at school frequent caning was the preferred (and I suspect very effective) solution for instilling a sense of duty and responsibility into teenagers.

Arnold Ward, Weybridge, Surrey, UK

Paul Williams, Northampton,
You are 100% correct. I have 2 grown up daughters and have never wanted or tried to be their best friend. They would be appalled if they thought that I considered this to be the case. But we are very close.
I am their dad, together with mum I set and policed the boundaries when they were young, taught them to respect other people, accept responsibilty for their actions and what was acceptable behaviour and what was not. Made sure they had enough to eat, had a roof over their head and had clothes to wear. Made sure they got an education and helped them with homework.
Now they are grown up (21 and 23) I give them advice based on my experience (not always taken but the young have to make their own mistakes to learn) am their for them when they have problems that are too much for them to deal with alone and sometimes act as the dad bank.
In short I am a parent NOT a friend and that's the way I want it and in my opinion it should be.

John, Reading, uk

We've banned cigarette advertising for years, yet alcohol is advertised as freely and blatantly as ever. In the ads, depending on the type of drink, one is seen as "a man", or sexually successful and desirable (both sexes). Most of the ads are aimed at the young and so feature young, attractive people. While cigarette smoking causes huge health problems, alcohol causes huge health and social problems - violence, drunk-driving, loss of inhibition resulting in undesirable behaviour, etc, etc. Why isn't there an anti-alcohol campaign similar to the anti-smoking campaign? Who's pulling the strings? And it's a problem in all western countries. Did you read about that 16 year old kid in Narre Warren Melbourne who ended up having a 500 person plus "party" go out of control in his street while his irresponsible parents were holidaying in Queensland? Word got around via the internet, texts, etc. The resultant police action cost the taxpayer $20000. Teens are not adults.

RR, Melbourne, Australia

I detect a tad too much whine in this column to take it overly seriously.

Just because people think childhood is over at 11, it does not mean that they think adulthood starts at 11 as well.

The transition from child to adult is a gradual process, not all aspects of a child's development progress at the same rate. Sometimes they will be a young adult sometimes they will be a child. Its our challenge as parents to faciliate this transition. And sometimes facilitating this transition is difficult for both parent and child.

Often the parent is scared by some of the intermediate stages in the transition.

If you are too tired to do it after your demanding job, switch to a less demanding job and free up more time to be with your family.

If you are struggling, seek help. Noone will think worse of you for it and there are plenty of organisation keen to help.

Robin , Stroud, UK

My 14 year old son received a letter from the solicitor handling my husbands side of our divorce, telling him that he was old enough to stand up to his mother and did not have to do what I told him!!!

T. Bell, Chobham, Surrey

"Someone has to be the grown-up round here, and I'm afraid it's us."

As simple and as true as it comes. However, I doubt many people under the age of 40 will fully appreciate just how true this is. Possibly this is demonstrated (at least to some degree) by the rather condescending and ill thought comments from other, less mature, posters.

John Gregory, Cambridge,

Much of this is true. However it is always convenient to blame the parents for failing to meet expectations which are often wildly unrealistic.

One point we need to make is that England has little tolerance for children in the first place. This is a country with a remarkable 10 year age threshold for criminal responsibility. We also allow councils to create criminal offences ad lib which are largely aimed at younger teens, and cover a range of offences from serious to breath-takingly banal or silly.

According to the UN we provide a child-unfriendly environment and we're now, with government playing super-nanny, extending that to ensure that if the kids don't toe the mark, parents can be made to suffer for it.

By the way, you can't push your children into anything except metaphorically and spanking is enough to get Social Services down on you like a ton of kid-safe styrofoam bricks. But if they misbehave you can still talk to them quite sternly.

Richard, Horley,

Traditonally the parent brought up the child, and diciplined him or her when he she went awry - this trend of letting go early isnt new, sadly many parents lets go far earlier than 11 but how to teach the child when the parents werent themselves taught? particularly in this world when the kids "know their rights, isnt it" . Its in part the rsult of the desparate and sometime ill considered attempt to protect minors, in all sections of life the young adult and then the teenager governs the parent or adult..
until this is adressed then the sad phenomena will continue and parent and schools will take the easy way out becos society doesnt permit them to enforce their rules when they apply them.

zugerman, zurich, switzerland

Agree 100% . I would rather holiday in Helmand than raise a child in the UK today .

Benzo, Nr Chelmsford,

The true abdication of responsibility is in sending the young to schools to be taught by stangers all sorts of nonsense that we ourselves do not believe.

Schools are an unatural human invention that causes as much misery and suffering as war.

Greg Lorriman, Leatherhead, UK

It's not so much the kids that are growing up too quickly as the parents that are growing up too slowly!

Dave, Southampton, UK

Hear hear. You don't touch on the terrible trend for small girls to be dress like grown up hookers complete with make up from the age of 6 upwards - they are are made to look like adults. Who are these girls dressing for. I am so glad I have boys, different set of problems but at least not peodophile bait!

Helen, Weymouth,

It seems like many parents are trying to be 'best friends' with their children and this is not a sensible aim: a position of authority can never be achieved when an equal system is used.

Perhaps it is time to move all ages of consent to 18 - sex, marriage, driving included. The entire concept of allowing a child to have their own children at 16 but not be responsible enough to vote until 18 is untenable.

Parents should remain completely responsible for their offspring until they reach 18.

It seems to me the best way to arrange that is to cut off benefit payments / tax credits etc to any adult whose children break the law. I suspect more parents would take a proper interest then.

Paul Williams, Northampton,

A 'child' that is capable of having it's own children is nothing of the sort.

Other cultures have long recognised that fact. The young mature by being given responsibilities, not having them withheld.

I well remember the radical change in self-awareness that struck me at 13. And I haven't changed since.

Greg Lorriman, Leatherhead, UK

Bringing up children is a demanding but rewarding challenge, and how they are brought up is in large part a matter of parental choice. Some apply industry to the task and others do not, the latter because they will not or may be too exhausted in the context of an essential pay packet.

Available resources could be dramatically increased if the initial commitment to marriage was maintained and the parties worked hard together to preserve it. It can be no coincidence that the considered lowering of the end of childhood coincides with increased divorce rates.

I think this area is a gaping hole in your article.

David Williams, Eastnor, England

In some areas we infantilise our teens, keep them from responsibility and participation in society; and in others we adultify(?!) them, mainly in their social lives. Perhaps we should try to reverse these tendencies a little.

John Ledbury, Kings Lynn, England

The problem is simple: at 16, the law says that kids can tell you to stick your rules, boundaries and ethics "where the sun don't shine". Attempt to do something about that, like tell the child they are grounded for the weekend and lock the door, and the child calls the police, in an attempt to claim they are being abused. Change the law now!

Linda K. Berkeley, Hampton Hill, Middlesex , UK

Bev

No single person represents the media - and you don't gain any credibility by the would-be jokey spelling - any more than the government truly represents the people it purports to govern.

So: have the courtesy to give individual writers the credit for independent thought, and don't shoot the messenger when you can't even see her properly.

Jane, Wincanton, Somerset

Bring back the extended family and some of these problems will be solved.

SD Goh, PJ, Malaysia

And who exactly has encouraged everyone to wallow in this cultural adolescence if not the meeja and their paymasters, the advertisers? If you're looking for someone to blame, try looking in the mirror.

Bev, Bucks, UK

A truly committed parent really has to fine tune commitment to what goals? Is it going to be for the parents' advantage or is it to the teen's advantage? Being in the teens stage is not an excuse to let go of children into the streets to learn to grow up and be like adults. To want the teen to grow up and learn to be like adults means to model being a sensible and committed adult as a parent. The teen will only imitate what has been modeled. Have you ever wondered why street gangs never seem to lose on numbers? They keep growing since so many children are out in the streets looking up at street gang models to follow later on. Coupled with low self esteem, being into the gang scene will become an artificial buffer for the teener who is still into the stage of learning his self identity.

Ani Torres, Quezon city, Philippines