What is the moral distinction between allowing an accountant or a lawyer into a school to talk about career prospects to a class of 12-year-olds, and giving a military officer the same freedom to tell them about the Army?
According to the National Union of Teachers, one is useful advice, the other is propaganda. Yesterday the NUT debated a motion that stated that: “Teachers and schools should not be conduits for either the dissemination of MoD propaganda or the recruitment of military personnel.” The motion, not surprisingly, was passed. One should never underestimate the vacuous posturing of the NUT.
Strip away all the concern about “glamorising war” and it is clear from the debate that the very presence of military personnel in schools is anathema to the NUT. One delegate in a speech said: “Let's just try and imagine what that recruitment material would have to say were it not to be misleading. We would have material from the MoD saying, ‘Join the Army and we will send you to carry out the imperialist occupation of other people's countries'.”
If teachers cannot understand the difference between political opposition to the war in Iraq and the role of the Army in the defence of the realm, then pity the pupils they claim to teach. It is one thing to grandstand at an NUT conference about the so-called iniquity of an illegal invasion. It is quite another to undermine a profession, which is an essential pillar of the State, in front of a class of impressionable youngsters.
The timing is spectacularly inept. Barely a fortnight ago RAF servicemen in Peterborough were being advised to shed their uniforms before they went out on the streets, for fear of being exposed to insults and attacks. Recruitment is at a record low despite British troops in Afghanistan facing military action as intense as any since the Korean War. A recent poll suggested that only 23 per cent of the population is well informed about the Army and its role. One might have thought that, in these circumstances, teachers had a responsibility to redress the balance - to explain that the Army is there for society's protection, rather than as the unacceptable face of armed aggression, and to condemn the thugs who assault or insult young squaddies.
But if the teachers' role is questionable, what about political leaders? In Scotland last week, Alex Salmond chose the fifth anniversary of the invasion of Iraq to send out an egregious message that suggested that British troops stationed in Basra do not believe they should be there at all. “Their views about the rights and wrongs of conflict are very similar to the rest of us,” he claimed. There is a breathtaking arrogance about this - not only the assumption that his own views about the war are shared by the majority of the population, but that soldiers, whom he has never visited, have lost confidence in their role. It is also irresponsible. For the First Minister of Scotland to undermine the commitment of the UK's Armed Forces abroad does little to suggest that he has made the transition from left-wing gadfly to national leader.
This kind of view is, in truth, far closer to propaganda than anything that the earnest military officers who go into schools - always at the invitation of head teachers - seek to convey. They are there to explain the role of the Armed Forces, and these days, all too conscious of the delicacy of their position, they lay emphasis on issues such as citizenship and training for the future. They draw attention to the army values of courage, discipline, respect for order, loyalty and integrity; their motto is “inspire to achieve”. You can see why the NUT wants to eject them.
What the Army is offering is precisely the kind of structure that is so often lacking in the lives of today's generation of young people. Just over a year ago, I spoke to a 22-year-old who had returned with the Black Watch from Basra. He had seen one of his comrades killed by a roadside bomb; he had been in a tank that had narrowly escaped being blown up after a sustained attack from insurgents; he had lived through the blazing heat of an Iraqi summer. He was about as far removed from the Salmond caricature as one can imagine - he was proud of what his regiment was doing, defended the presence of British troops in Iraq and talked convincingly about the dangerous vacuum that would be created if they were pulled out.
But it was what he told me about his personal circumstances that struck me most forcibly. I asked him whether he regretted the years he had been away from home and his friends in Fife. Certainly not, he said - his only regret was that his time in the Army would, inevitably, be limited. “What might you have done if you had not joined up?” I asked. “I'd be in jail, nae doubt,” he said matter of factly. Among the kids he had grown up with, at least half, he reckoned, had dropped out of school early and taken to a life of crime. He had been saved by the Army, he said - it had given him not just an alternative, but also a way of rethinking his life.
Curiously, he was echoing a man who will certainly not be quoted by the NUT this week. The Duke of Wellington once explained how the Army introduced order into the chaos of young lives. “All the business of war, and indeed all the business of life, is to endeavour to find out what you don't know by what you do,” he said. “That's what I call ‘guessing what is on the other side of the hill'.”
Most head teachers, who welcome service personnel into their schools, will know what he meant. They should make it clear that teachers have a duty of care towards their pupils, and that includes presenting them with an even-handed picture of the relationship between a society and its Armed Forces. In previous times the Army has saved the nation from destruction. It may be called upon to do so again. Guessing what is on the other side of the hill is part of our history and should be part of our education.
Do they also object to using literature such as Brookes while teaching english? Surely things like this balance out the 'glamours' nature of war. I can't say I have ever thought of war in that sense. But then I am female and would never be on the front line.....but that's another debate in itself!
These people risk their lives, no one ever signs up without realsing what it could mean. These people are no worse than allowing teachers to invite bankers/ scientists who use animal models...... everyone has their own opinions and children have the right to be given the information and make their own. The teachers should stop inflicting their leftie ones on the poor children.
angel, leicester,
I don't understand who the NUT would expect the Army to recruit if not young people.
Who else is going to fight Britain's wars? Surely they do not expect the Army to rely on forty somethings to make up the bulk of its troops!
The world is nasty, we live in a relatively comfortable bubbe, there are young people willing to kill to keep these demons at bay. Who else is going to do it?
Wilhelm , Slough,
Consrciption a good idea? rubbish!
The british army is professional and infinitely better for it (the Falklands is a good example against a conscripted force).
Why not have national service with the other services like firefighting and paramedics?
Rich Simkins, Derby,
I wonder what NUT members do on a Rememberance Sunday? One assumes that they stay indoors and ignore the sacrifices that were made on their behalf. These people have no sense of reality, gratitude or humanity, it seems to me.
I saw one quote from an MP that said, 'I imagine that the literature used in army recruiting is full of propoganda' . Which, now I think about it, is the sort of ignorant comment we have come to expect from our politicians.
I have yet to hear of a senior politician's son or daughter serving in the armed forces. They would do well to follow the example of our Royal family, perhaps then, they would earn some respect.
Ian, Cumbria
I parker, Penrith, UK
National conscription would solve so many of Englands problems.
english girl, munich, germany
The biggest mistake most of your correspondents make is to assume that the NUT conference represents the teaching profession. Most teachers are not members of the NUT and also conference delegates are in no sense typical of NUT members anyway.This is shown by the regular calls for strikes at conference which are later ignored by the membership.
John, Sheffield, UK
This nation was founded on military strength. It has always been part of the core of our society.
Before some bleeding heart jumps in with the damnation of empire building, we weren't the first, and pretty much everyone else has (German, French, Italian, Spanish et al).
We need to support the armed forces, and to ban them from schools is ludicrous.
To be honest, 2 years of national service for those without jobs would be the best thing this country could do. So many waters living off my taxes, with no intention of working. Well done to the educators for inspiring them.
Yes, I am a former serviceman.
DJ, Norwich,
Des,
Re. your comment: 'One significant distinction is that the military officer targets the same schools in predominately working class areas several times per year and the accountant does not. Working class children have as much right to be protected from warfare as their middle class counterparts.'
How do you square this view with the fact that most public schools run Combined Cadet Forces that provide the fruit of middle class loins with a much more intensive exposure to military life than any fleeting visit by a recruiting officer can achieve.
Jerry, London,
Ironically my brother joined the Intelligence Corps in the British Army after teaching A-Level students Science. I couldn't understand his decision at the time (before meeting person(s) in the Armed Forces), such was my naivety. However, after hearing what was recently said by the NUT regarding British Armed forces 'propaganda' visits in our schools I now totally understand why he left!
Perhaps we do have someone to blame for the lack of discipline, morality and respect children show these days for their fellow countrymen/women - the NUT!
The British Armed Forces would offer a perfect platform for giving back self-respect to those children that sorely need it. I would ask how many ex-soldiers have resorted to crime after years in their profession compared to those from others, such as their own - if we could see those statistics I'm sure we'd all be unpleasantly surprised.
James, Manchester, UK
Well done the teachers who have been inviting the army into schools for years, what superb and inventive use of initiative to bring people who are important and talented to help broaden the education of many pupils who don't want to be taught.
If this story is to be taken at face value, and I notice that there is a lack of balanced argument from the author, (just quotes from the rank and file's best friend Sir Arthur Wellesley!) then I hope people are not naive enough to generalise about the opinion of all teachers (even those in the NUT). I for one do not agree with this plan (though I am not in that union) and would hope that teaching unions save their bullets (pun intended) for more important issues rather than fussing over small issues and losing credibility
Historyteacherman, telford, shrp
This is an awkward subject, but one should realise that those who would subjugate us are firstly the people who are governing us, and the military dimension is one of the principal means by which this has been achieved. Historically it was more direct than it is at present. Potential civil wars are now sublimated by those overseas. Thus, as you have observed, the youth who is aggressive and undisciplined through lack of the appropriate civil organisation, can be usefully diverted and employed by the military, but that isn t so much a credit to the military as a critique of the civility. In general, wars are to the considerable disadvantage of the majority for the benefit of a very small minority, and that applies both internally and externally. So if you think society should be organised for the benefit of an elite, you will support a militaristic government. If you think society should be organised for the benefit of the majority, you will advocate a purely defensive role for any military organisation and you will have the attitude as has the NUT.
Henry Percy, London, UK
They get an education in the Armed Forces.
First they learn how to read & write...something lacking in schools presently. They also learn about respect and discipline, even pick up a trade such as cooking, mechanic, electronics, comms etc
Many learn a foreign language - actually learn to speak it too.
And of course, they learn about Geography and other cultures.
All in all, they get an education.....oops!
Perhaps this is the reason the NUT is against the MoD coming into schools.
Phil, Preston,
Stop them recruiting at once, and while you're at it take away their guns as well - nasty dangerous things! Everyone knows that only drug gangs and politicians are allowed to recruit schoolchildren, and only the former let them have guns. Shame on the army for cutting into such a sacrosanct and lucrative recruiting territory just because of mere national security! And at tax-payers' expense as well, when we all know its better spent on rehab. programs and MPs' wallpaper!
KR, Stockport,
The NUT are out of order, they should concentrate on improving working conditions and pay for teachers rather than getting involved with politics. I have been an NUT member for twenty years and I am seriously considering resigning my membership to this union because of this idiotic motion.
I am certain they do not represent the majority of teachers, so please don't say 'teachers' when you mean NUT representatives.
Youngsters are not stupid, they have access to TV, I'm sure they can work out for themselves how difficult life is for soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.
PTennant, Torrington, Devon
Steve from London hits the nail on the head...if our youngsters are to go to war and give up their lives, then it should either be to defend the realm from invaders, or for a just and moral cause...the war in Iraq is neither...
simon, cardiff, wales
The armed forces actually care about the way their recruits turn out unlike a minority of parents and teachers, it is not the army that decides where it will engage in conflict and it makes the best of a no win environment.
K. Siaens, Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne and Wear
Well it is on the same loony spectrum as not teaching patriotism because British history is (apparently according to
the Left in education uniquely) ambiguous.
If they can't keep their politics to themselves they are not fit to teach.
Please lets have more military people teaching. they are able to put duty before self.
Victoria , Croydon, UK
If todays war is questionable and the forces are given no quarter to recruit, what happens when tomorrow's, no question legitimate defence of the realm war comes along and we can't fight?
If ever I've met someone in the armed forces they have commanded respect and impressed me. I felt it to be a very real career option for me (but chose another path) I hope others take it seriously too.
Richard Simkins, Derby,
....... and those who can't teach become NUT reps.
John, London,
The talk of recruiters being biased towards working class schools is misleading.
At my private school we had the CCF as did most other independent schools i know.
You don't need people to come into school and tell you how good the forces are when your out every week doing the things you enjoy.
I joined the forces out of university, loved it as did all of my firends. I had to leave on (minor) medical grounds...went back to uni did a medical degree. One of the reasons i have done so well is because of the Royal Navy and the lessons it taught me for life.
When a career is good enough for the Royal family then it's good enough for others.
Damian, Leamington spa,
Have the N.U.T no consideration for those poor Afghan teachers beheaded by the Taliban for daring to teach female children, and those that endanger and lose their life to oppose it?.
wayne, huntingdon, Cambridgeshire
i guess their just NUTs
Stjohn Lessin, San Diego, CA
We desperately need good male role models to go into schools and to teach in them. People in the Armed Forces
are decent ,disciplined ,honorable. Until this point I thought teachers were too.They need to put their politics behind the best interests of their students.But perhaps left wingers aren't
grown up enough to do so.
George , St Albans, UK
I wish people would stop equating teachers with the NUT. We have a professional body called the General Teaching Council which represents us all and is never reported. Instead the nutty lefties of the NUT who represent the minority of teahers are endlessly reported and quoted as 'teachers.' They dont speak for me or my school.
Leo Jones, Holyhead, Wales
I have little respect for those enjoying exceptional levels of freedom in this modern world wihout recognising the value of the country's military in securing it for them. A professional military is perhaps the only way the demanding standards this liberal society places expects omn operations can be met successfully.
Therefore enjoying freedom is a privelege for which the payment is a responsible attitude to careers in the military and indeed acceptance that this exceptionally demanding way of life is actually something noble rather than political.
J Brown, andover, hampshire
The lunatics have finally taken over the asylum, or so they think.
Last I heard the teacher was/is an employee of the LEA. This is funded from council tax charges levied upon the voters of that area.
In my humble reconing that makes them employees of the community in which they are employed.
Where do these jumped up pipsqueaks think they have got the authourity from to dictate who comes and goes in and out of our schools?
I would also point out that even though teachers have 3 months a year with their feet up they choose to meet during term time.
I was recruited into the armed forces from the state school I attended , I was already an air cadet while at school and at the age of 16 gained my glider pilot license and flew fixed wing monoplanes until I left school and joined the parachute regiment. I have served in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq and have witnessed first hand the brilliant job our forces do. Regrets? yes, I wish I could have stayed in longer.
Lord Haw Haw=NUT???
John , Newcastle, UK
"If teachers cannot understand the difference between political opposition to the war in Iraq and the role of the Army in the defence of the realm, then pity the pupils they claim to teach."
---------
Isn't this the problem, though? If governments abuse the covenant and send our troops off to kill and be killed in illegal, immoral and unnecessary wars, then we shouldn't be encouraging kids to sign up. If the military wasn't abused like it has been for the past 5 years I'd see your point. If I was a parent I wouldn't want my "impressionable youngster" (your term) exposed to this.
Steve, London, UK
N.U.T. by name, nut by nature !
sue, york, uk
Soldiers that have been in combat very rarely talk openly about there experiences; they also have some of the strongest morals and values and standards that you will find in any walk of life in our society. Our children need role models, and at present all they have is out of order footballers, lazy layabouts on reality TV and pop stars with drug problems. I think that the schools should be welcoming such positiveness into our schools.
David Redmond, lincoln,
"You sleep safe in you beds at night because rough men stand ready in the darkness to do violence on your behalf"
Misquoted and misattributed to Orwell
Wouldn't it be lovely if everyone could just be nice to each other! We should teach "peace studies" where everyone can learn that compromise and empathy, along with a non competitive and open culture of tolerance will see us all happy and well....
No exam and only course work required and we'll drop the bar every year so we have more "passes" not that any one fails as that would be de-motivating.
Of course if I spent all my time talking to nine year olds and having 20 weeks holiday a year I might believe it too.
Dave St Peters, London,
One cynic might say that having nearly 50% of our children leaving school without qualifications, 25% of them virtually illiterate and innumerate is the best recruiting mechanism the Army has ever had. NUT focus on the real issues- you are failing our children not the Army!
Garrie Owens, Rainham, Kent
Lets get some proportion. Taking NUT delegates to be typical of the teaching profession is like taking Abu Ghraib to be typical of the army. No teacher I have met would have come out with anything as crass as the odious, embittered sap who came out with the lines about torture and imperialism. You're always going to get a few class warriors mixed in with those who are seeking a fair deal for the profession.
The NUT is the most left-wing of the unions, the delegates are likley to be more intensely political than the rank and file, and the speakers even more so.
In lots of schools, teachers help out as volunteers with cadet forces which are highly valued. The great majority are proud of their pupils who go on to army careers.
JB, Esse, UK
I'm a teacher and have been in the NUT, I have found this union does not speak for me or most of my colleagues. I strongly support the army, despite disagreeing with the war in Iraq. For man young people the army is a good career, it will give them opportunities and education.
Instead of making stupid, pointless gestures and reflect badly on our profession the NUT should spend more time compaigning on the obsessive culture of testing and observations in schools which are driving many good teachers out of the profession and are detrimental to the education and well being of pupils and teachers.
Helen Murray, Market Harborough, UK
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. The NUT beggar belief.
It's frankly horrifying that children are being taught (supposedly) reason, logic and analytical thought by people who consider that a statement like "Join the Army and we will send you to carry out the imperialist occupation of other people's countries" is an objective or unbiased view of military activity, let alone a just representation of the army's motives.
Perhaps somebody should give these guys a history lesson?
K St Aubyn, London,
As a retired teacher and senior TA officer(I also served in the Royal Marines),I have first hand experience of the NUT.With my Army commitments and my school commitments I was working nearly seven days a week during the cold war(which we won with our dedecation and commitment).The ordinary members of the NUT were ok about it but their organisers were anything but.I was underminded frequently by these people and openly shunned.Even the children were embaressed by their behaviour.Needless to say our efforts were rewarded by the collapse of the USSR.I am disqusted by the behaviour of these so called teachers they are not fit to teach our children.I hope that Head Teachers will continue to tell the children in their care about the Armed Forces and what they do for them.
Robert, Derby, Derbyshire
Is it any wonder so many of us bankrupt ourselves to educate our our children independently?
I am appalled by the NUT and would educate my child at home rather than send them into the hands of these people. They have no idea about life in the army nor of the courage and self-sacrifice these young people demonstrate on a daily basis. Service personnel should be paraded as an inspiration rather than hidden away as something to be ashamed of.
I for one am ashamed of our teachers.
Jenny, London,
Just by the bye, it's only a poll of one plus some hearsay, but my cousin has done four tours of duty in Iraq and is now Stateside as a Lt Col in the Marines. Neither he nor any of his buddies doubted why they were in Iraq. They believed in the cause and were frustrated that the news media misrepresented the situation there so completely.
Nancy , London,
Military recruiters and schools...a strange pair of bedfellows. But, if we look at England's poet, Rudyard Kipling, he said:
"...But it's 'Saviour of 'is country,"
when the guns begin to shoot;
Yes, it's Tommy this, an' Tommy
that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool
--you bet that Tommy sees! (Barrack-Room Ballads)
Your own brilliant military history has shown the world that the ordinary British 'bloke', when trained and put into a uniform, becomes an awesome force. Does the Battle of Verdun sound familiar? How about Battle of Britain?
Soldiers do not grow on trees. When the country is under attack, someone must man the ramparts. The trouble remains with the ones who define the nature of the 'enemy'. My feeling is that the teachers do not want their students to end up 'Unknown Warriors". But, if we in the western world are in a fight for our lives, I want to be sure we have the fight in our men and women to overcome those who would subjugate us
Dennis Caisse, Lockport, NY, USA
Those that CANNOT do, Teach.
A. Adams, Biloxi, m
Yes, become a good Socalist, join the team! We'll take care of you, train you, and all you have to do is follow orders--- without question.
james, ST. PETE, USA, FL
It seems that allowing NUT members into schools is the crazier option of the two. I'd take the army over them anyday.
rikrok, London, uk
The NUT are against military representation in schools simply because they are unable to maintain discipline themselves. Army, navy or air force, it does not matter. Joining any one of the forces instills the values sadly lacking in many of todays younger generation (and miy own generation for that matter). We have been too soft handed with successive generations of school children, it's time to show them a slice of real life.
Ron, Milton Keynes, Bucks
Maybe the NUT should spend a bit more time concerning themselves with the lack of good quality, dedicated teachers in education or the rise in gun crime and drug use in schools.
The Army is an intrigal part of our society and it is not for a teaching union to decide what our children should be exposed to. Our kids should be given the opportunity to explore all career avenues available.
Kelly, london, uk
What other supposedly "respectable" careers promote anything vaguely similar to the values and standards of the British Army? Integrity, humility, physical courage, moral courage, respect, camaraderie etc.
Accountancy, banking, law, sales? I think not.
Although I'm far from suggesting that most people in these proffesions are morally bankrupt (one of of them is my chosen career path) they don't instill the above values as the army does. And that is something the country is lacking.
Simon, York,
The alternative will be conscription then there will be no choice - sounds good to me.
Malcolm Turner, Alsager, England
Jon in Hong Kong - grammar? I think "you're" is an abreviation for "you are". Presumably you meant "your".
I did my National Service in the early 50's when one had no choice but to serve in the forces. Many National Servicemen gave their lives for their country in Cyprus, Korea, Suez and many other parts of the world. In those days we were proud to be British and serve our country and our teachers all suported that view!.
Rod, Preston, UK
As someone with a lover in the British Army I can tell you that they are the only real men left; disciplined, active, intelligent, immensely practical, with lovely manners and someone I would want to be with when any going got tough. If he is representative of our soldiers, and I know he is, then I can tell you the Army is doing a very good job in turning out people of this calibre. I would have been delighted had my sons decided to join up. It can be risky job but immensely rewarding and for a young person surely a degree of risk makes the job meaningful. We should give our Army much more respect than we do - and the Teacher's Union should be ashamed of themselves with their dated, anti military rhetoric.
veracity, London, UK
What power has the NUT to stop the Forces sending people into the schools ? If it wishes to strike on the question, let it call a strike and let us break this nonsense once and for all.
What sort of people are these teachers? Have they no parents or grandfathers who fought in the World Wars, many of whom no doubt died for the country ?
Many of us consider Iraq and Afganistan ill-conceived wars. There were some such in the 19th century. But we would all be speaking German now if that had led to the abolition of the Forces. Soldiers fight when and where Parliament tells them to. No more and no less.
And the Services offer an education and apprenticeship in many different fields, from engineering to electronics, from flying to -teaching! To those without any other chance of a decent education.
Robert Sebag-Montefiore, Geneva, Switzerland
I believe we had the RAF and RN in my school, dont think the Army came.
I certainly wasnt propaganda'ised
The RAF guy quite clearly and Sternly told me to go to 6th form then think of joining up as an officer.
Which I promptly did and failed the eye exam.
My school split roughly into 3 groups
The high flyers like myself who got carears
The less intellegent who joined the army
The less intellegent who joined a jail cell
Thats it.
There is no job for someone who wants to work two maybe three days a week, one of which he can sleep in till 12.
Either they join the army and learn discipline or they end up in jail.
Dominic, Manchester, UK
Soldiers ought to be admired and respected in our schools, not denegrated by these left-wing nuts trying to impose their radical socialist viewpoint on our kids.
Isn't there a poem by Rudyard Kipling highlighting the hypocricy of these people? It's Tommy this, an' Tommy that...
AJM, London, UK
I agree with the article's point about the distinction between political opposition to the war in Iraq and the role of the Armed Forces.
However, I do think that, if the Armed Forces are to promote themselves as a career choice in schools, they should be candid about the risks they face. It should be made absolutely clear to youngsters that yes, joining the Armed Forces can be one of the most rewarding choices a young person can make, but also that they should be under no illusions that they could end up dead or horribly maimed.
Rob, York,
Can we please have a bar on inviting teachers into schools?
Howard, Macclesfield,
"army representitives should not be allowed to influence young people until there is no educational route for them open".
So no doubt they will be telling them that University is the only way in life; probably to do media studies!
I have known several people that joined the Army and have received a fantastic education for life.
It is precisely this atitude that which prevents young people achieving, but unfortunately most teachers have never been out in the real world. Teachers need to realise that their job is to educate and prepare our young people for adult life, not to become the loony left; I seem to remember Unions in the past that went down that road.
John, Huntingdon,
Wasn't there a saying "Those who can do, those who can't teach?" - forgive me if I mis-quote, but the Armed Forces of the UK are not about oppression.
Our politicians might be, but surely not the average soldier, sailor or airman!
It is a career option, and judging from the results produced in the 2 young sons of a friend, a fantastic option for the right person.
Sadly, todays 'students' have an erroneous opinion of their talents from what I see - the conflict of ability versus belief - as they seem to expect to become the Chairman of (say) BP without actually needing to have any skills or experience for such a role.
Teachers wish to encourage them in this belief, as it is not PC to tell someone the truth about their limitations.
Ideally we should return to schools explicitly for the academically talented, and schools where those who are less so can learn a skill or trade for which they may have a talent, be it football, snooker, plumbing, hairdressing or whatever.
Terry, Bagneres, France
The army is the origional public service.Teachers used to belomg on the welfare side of the economy and the better ones still do.Teachers should understand that their right to be regarded as a public servant is tenuos and this sort of denigration of the origional public service will do them no favours.
Edicius, Worcester,
Oh Sally, Edinburgh, as a teacher I am continually reminding my seven year old pupils that 'a lot' is two words not one! Make sure you're house is in order before smugly noting 'bad grammar and spelling mistakes'.
Oh dear Jon, Hong Kong you're = you are (ALWAYS). The possessive pronoun is your. Teachers in glass houses.......
As a teacher, I am appalled by the NUT, and left it over 20 years ago. It seems not to have grown up in any way since.
Julie, Frankfurt,
These are probably the same "Young" teachers that started the rot when I was at school. I would like to thank them for failing me at school with there new fangled idea's of discipline and teaching. I was incredibly lucky that I had some of the old school teachers out there that encouraged me to think about what I wanted to do to better myself (Thank you Mr Mullen Houghton Upper). Unfortunately they were a breed that were coming up to retirement at the time.
I joined up at 17, luckily my entrance exam equated to my actual IQ and not my exams from school. The army gave me a life, a career for 10 years and a life after the army. I am now a £65k a year IT consultant. Thanks to the training (Mental preperation as well as trade orientated) that I got from the Army. This is the real reason why teachers get upset about the forces. It's because they turn out better young people than those that leave school.
Discipline, honour and integrity, things that todays "yuff" culture requires.
Mike Law, MK,
There's a lot to be said for joining the forces, but I think that an all round better careers service in schools would benefit kids. We never got careers talks, and just got told to look on the internet in careers sessions.
Maybe it would give everyone more direction.
wiltshire wurzel, swindon,
First the police, now the teachers. With these groups undermining our society, what hope do we have?
Martin, Newmarket, Suffolk
When did you ever hear of an accountant losing their legs at work ...if the foces are to go into schools then children should at least hear from people who have most definitely got the dirty end of the military stick too .
Ian , Isleworth , UK
So the army is accused on propaganda when it visits schools. Has the NUT not seen the adverts for teaching on television, the ones with all those lovely children! I dare say more lives are shortened/ruined by stressful teaching careers than are lost in modern warfare.
Also, isn't secondary education supposed to prepare our children for the real world with all its bias and propaganda. Surely if there is the suspicion of propaganda our highly skilled and creative teachers could use this as a starting point for for some interesting follow up lessons and let the children decide for themselves.
Peter Newbury, Trowbridge,
I would not want to send my child to be 'educated' by people who think Britain is imperialist, or who generally espouse, from the safety of their public sector salaries and pensions, a left-liberal set of prejudices which belong in the seventies but continue to do immense harm to this society. Can I find out how many of the teachers at a given school are NUT members, so that I can avoid sending my children to a place where they dominate?
Mike Evans, Midsomer Norton, UK
Are these the same teachers who whinge incessantly about being bullied by their pupils?
Perhaps it might be better to get the teachers in the army to toughen them up a little and then maybe our kids might have a little respect for them...
Jeff, Surrey,
Oh Sally, Edinburgh, as a teacher I am continually reminding my seven year old pupils that 'a lot' is two words not one! Make sure you're house is in order before smugly noting 'bad grammar and spelling mistakes'.
Jon, Hong Kong, Hong Kong
I believe the comments made by NUT teachers say more about them as individuals than they do about the teaching profession. As an ex-soldier and serving police officer I am quite frankly disgusted that these people can pontificate about an issue they have little first-hand knowledge or comprehension. The army is dangerous and yes at times it does send our young people off to fight wars which are questionable.
What they fail to mention is that the armed forces are a 'real' alternative to some young people whose future holds a life of criminality, drug abuse, and ultimately a very poor quality of life. So I have a question for the NUT - what 'real' alternatives do you provide these young people - we have large rates of truancy, poor engagement from pupils from poorer backgrounds, poor exam results from the same socio-economic groups - not exactly a bright future. Here's my view of the NUT as a member of the British Public - I am ASHAMED of you. How many more of us are?
Mike Richardson, Durham,
It does not bear thinking about; idiots in the NUating T are indoctrinating our youngsters
Dr J Findlater, carnforth,
I was just too young to be conscripted years ago, for which I was truly thankful. My wife and I were very surprised when our son voiced a desire to become a soldier; but he has a passion for excellence, and has found that most in the Australian and UK armed forces, particularly the SAS. In the event his path was to combine combat engineer reserves with a first-class science degree, then study medicine with an Australian Army scholarship and a commitment to six years' service on completing his training (he's currently a hospital intern). I'm not only impressed with my son but with the quality of many of those he's come into contact with in the military. Any of his old teachers we meet are proud of him, as are we.
Faustino, Brisbane, Australia
I take it facism was defeated by a left wing think tank ! Freedom is expensive as we will all find out again.
Wills, Soton, UK
If teachers cannot understand the difference between political opposition to the war in Iraq and the role of the Army in the defence of the realm
I'm sorry but there are not fighting hordes of rampaging "freedom fighters" accross our land but in fact are part of an illeagal war thats got bugger all to do about "freedom" and more to do about securing the fuel the US needs
And also if anybody thinks the army is using decent material just look at that advert on tv, the one I'm talking about is the one where there controling a spy plane with an XBOX 360 controller and look me in the eye and say its not propaganda and if you do I will call you a fool
Aiden Henry, Edinburgh,
What twaddle to imply the armed forces are not respectable, and to make reference yet again to class distinction is just mind numbing. What an insult to all those who risk their lives in defense of the oaves who make these preposterous comments.
What happened to the good old fashion ethos of service?
Trevor, London,
Chris Mallen is apparently not aware of the educational opportunities that exist within the armed forces. In addition to technical training related to his role a soldier can also take advantage of various schemes (learning credits etc.) that can be used to subsidize his education. The Army also has need of accountants.
"Working class children have as much right to be protected from warfare as their middle class counterparts. Don't you agree Magnus? " - Des, Edinburgh,
Which is what the Armed Forces do...
Des and Chris have the typical assumption of the left wing chattering classes, namely that 'working class' people are too stupid to make their own choices and that YOU must determine every little detail of their lives for them. Heaven forbid that a man with less education than you would decide to eat four portions of fruit a day tommorow instead of the regulation five, that he might smoke a cigarette over his pint, or indeed join the Army.
James, Croydon,
It's sad. You English were once an inspiration to us over here.
Russ Armstrong, Becker, Minnesota,
A bit of discipline never did anyone any harm - and alot have gone on to better things with improved manners, social awareness, collective responsibility and higher levels of confidence.
I wonder how many people commenting have actually served any time at all?? I bet none of the teachers have, and in all the replies so far I can see nothing but bad grammar and spelling mistakes. I wonder if they were educated here in Britain by those very same 'erudite' teachers!!
Sally, Edinburgh,
u become a professional target for other killers?
Tim, cardiff,
the moral distinction is that allowing army representitives into schools will distract children away from an education where as educational qualifications such as accountancy is a respected educatiuon and employment.
army representitives should not be allowed to influence young people until there is no educational route for them open
chris mailen, Teesside,
One significant distinction is that the military officer targets the same schools in predominately working class areas several times per year and the accountant does not. Working class children have as much right to be protected from warfare as their middle class counterparts. Don't you agree Magnus?
Des, Edinburgh,
Educated these teachers may be, but they probably have not read and understood 'Tommy'. A state cannot survive without forces; until a state is secure the rest is a luxury, teachers included.
Peter Hood, London,
i agree, not only is the armed forces a career in its own right as well as any, it is maybe the best hope pupils have of having a forfilling career with prospects of being trained in a trade. a lot of students are leaving school with very little GCSE and very little want to sit in a class room for the next two years plus trying to get qualifications that might get them an office job. also with the demise of the apprentiship, students must face the prospect of further education, the dole, supermarkets or the armed forces. it is time that schools as well as the government look into ways of helping students into work, rather than letting them enter into state handouts. having left college recently half my friends have entered the dole system with none of those holding down a job. the other half went to university. bring back vocational training like apprentiships or give our pupils choices for their future rather than limiting there already diminished career choices.
Geoffrey Bunce, London,