I think that Melanie missed the point. She does not seem to appreciate from her comfortable southern perch that Bradford is a city that has been almost taken over by immigrants.

I know from a northern viewpoint that British people feel intimidated, out of place and alien in Bradford. Nothing can change that now and the Wibsey people know what the future holds. The city is lost.

The policy of encouraging immigration to service our current needs neglects the obvious fact that they too will need support in their later lives.

J Briggs, Huddersfield, Yorkshire

Dear Isabella: As the son of first generation immigrants, Richmond-upon-Thames is precisely the sort of place I would like to live. Its genteel, middle-class ways, lack of muck, crime, grafitti and hoodies is the perfect antidote to the cultural and aesthetic wasteland that is Finsbury Park. Richmond stands out in London as a beacon for civility and a living, breathing representation of what England used to be reknowned worldwide for, but you know need to travel to Munich in Germany to experience.

Steven Setchey, London,

Jason Mador London UK

You say "The grandparent of many of these very (so- called) white working class people, were probably living in India and the West Indies in some luxury - at the expense of the indigenous populations."

I really don't know where you get that idea from. MY grandparents and great grandparents were hard at work down the mines and in the iron foundries of THIS country, being looked down upon and exploited by exactly the kind of people you describe. Britain's WORKING classes had nothing whatsoever to do with Imperialism. Working class people do NOT belong to the class that "'conquered' the world in an earlier era". They were far too busy struggling to keep body and soul together, before the welfare state had even been thought of. I understand why people feel bitter, but don't lay the blame for all that at the door of the working class.

Even now they still can't get their fair share of the cake, so you can't really blame them for feeling a little disgruntled

Sue, London, UK

QUOTE- "Immigration isn't to blame for the plight of the white working class". Agreed, not in itself, but were we, the British people, ever actually asked if we wanted immigration - in this supposedly "democratic" country? ...And who are these working-class men of
Wibsey, if not the "demos"?
I fear that Melanie Reid has missed the point.

Brian Clacey, Croydon, UK QUOTE


It has created a very alarming rise in the number of ordinary people who are now very much racist both in their private thoughts and conversation.

Ian Mac, Portsmouth, UK

Blaming immigrants and darker skinned people seems to be a european trait. The UK has an ethnic minority population of only 7.9 percent. 1.2 percent of this is also of mixed heritage (which the white british always seem to want to clump together with other minorities). How can people then blame minorities for the trouble the UK seems to be facing? Stopping migration might actually be a good idea as this would not give the British government and society in general- a scapegoat. Perversely- British people complain so much even though the economy has seen one of the most strong runs (by any economy) in recent history???? What's gonna happen when this all stops? Minorities should be afraid and make arrangements to leave as Europe has one of the darkest histories regarding race relations. However, this time, hopefully the world will not just stand by and watch.

Brendon Brewski, new york, USA

Great article and programme , lots of good comments .
I would imagine that those broad shoulders will be forgotten and left to rot , " they are English they won't complain " is the probable thinking and they would be right . They will probably continue to vote for the same political party they always have done .There will probably be minor race riots and a slight rise in support for the BNP but nothing will change , ever , England as a nation has run it's course . The empire destroyed from within ,the politicians can see it , which is the real reason behind the sleaze .With their hands in the cookie jar and their irritating omnipresence in the media , it is one long jolly boys outing for them.
We the public are the stupid one's for not going out and grabbing what we can before there's nothing left and those broad shoulders that helped build this nation's heritage are the stupidest of all , they believed in this country and it's done nothing but let them down.

Nick Dixon, Sutton Coldfield, England

I think where the argument swings into racism is the point where people blame the immigrants for this though. There is an argument to be made about blaming the way politicians or funding goes to immigrants, but don't blame the immigrants for it.

As a few people have said, many of these immigrants have come from countries (India/Pakistan) which we have taken advantage of in the past....

Dave, Nantwich, England

While I agree with many of the points here (I also spent many years as manual working/class).

Isn't giving advantage to certain people because of skin colour etc just inverted racism, the Americans call it "affirmative action" (I don't).

Also I speak to white Canadian friends who tell me they feel like: "A second class citizen in my own country".

Andrew Munn, Bangkok, Thailand

Tam Earl-Aine hit the nail right on the head. I do wish people who write their comments looked at the problems facing this country they have been increasing faster than ever in recent years. Every opportunity is given to immigrants, compared to the indifference shown to the indigenous population.

christine marshall, cambridge, England

Yes Melanie Reid, the world moves on and is moving here. Is it just me or has NuLab's "Third Way" led us to the Third World. There is nowhere in your country, Scotland, where immigrants have taken over large sections of major cities and driven out the local population because they do not want to integrate. Governments since 1948, aided and abetted by celts like you and sons/daughters of immigrants in the press, have betrayed the indiginous people of England with the pernicious social engineering project called multiculturism. Who wanted it, who had a vote on it? Government and big business wanted it and forced it through despite warnings of civil and social disorder that would ensue. Well the chickens are comming home to roost and we are now a major terrorist training camp for people who don't consider themselves British let alone English. I am afraid it can only get worse.

Rogan Preston, Exeter, ENGLAND

The article ignores the unfortunate fact that many working class people aren't intelligent, and the reason why immigrants do better than them is because they are brighter and better workers. By the way Isabella, please don't romanticise grotty parts of London like Finsbury Park, where I lived for five years. Three years on, I still have nightmares about living there.

Marty, London,

The themes of this dicussion affect more than the tradition blue-collar working class. It affects the lower middle class as well and anyone who has found themselves, increasingly, alienated in their own country.
It is sinister twist to find this pretence that it affects only the inadequate or the unadaptable. It is calculated to shame the would-be upwardly mobile to hide their own fears for fear of bing labelled in the same way.
.In truth, many of the same feelings are shared been by large sections of the public. The ones that can afford have jumped ship and left the country. All the signs have been studiously ignored. It wasn't PC to mention it I suppose, and those who did were labelled racist.
Of course, obvious danger is that a group like the BNP will pick up lots more support in the future. And the biggest danger of all is that people like me ...traditionally middle of the road floating voter....will no longer think this IS a danger but a good thing.

Janet Mozelewski, Cheadle , uk

I believe that the problems the white working class have encountered have been mounting up since the early 70's when the unions were running the country and we (I count myself in this) thought we did not need to change and could demand and get anything we wanted.
I have since moved on and educated myself up to degree level and have a good job and salary. Too many people have been left behind and have nothing to aim for in their lives.
I do have to say however that some of the people who we are talking about are not unintelligent but due to their backgrounds and culture have not been able to realise their full potential.I also have to say it is a shame successive governments have not recognised this and done something about this issue.
As a production manager I have dealt with people who are not interested in change and resist any form of change. The key to overcoming this resistence is persistence on the side of managers. The way the present government is performing I see no change.

s h scott , huddersfield, uk

My recent experience of Richmond Upon Thames, a white ghetto at the *right* end of the social strata was an eye opener. In the pubs there they laugh about how passport control should be installed at each in point of 'The Richmond Triangle', and as for multiculturalism, well, you just don't see it - I suspect that it's down to economics, but it presents nothing enviable because there you have the same entrenched attitudes and resistance to change, but it's coupled with money.

What a relief it was, after only six months, to move to Finsbury Park! If Richmond Hill is what Britain turns into given the choice of the indigenous whites, then bring on multiculturalism.

In essence, it's not only the working classes that are threatened but the class system as a whole, and the true eradication of that can only be a good thing.

As for white males - the only ones I've seen suffering are those who think manual work is beneath them - an attitude perpetuated again by the class system.

Isabella, London,

I couldnt agree more than with Tam Earl-Aine of cheltenham. Its the white intellectuals on the liberal left who have promoted the false doctrine of multicultralism and sought to tear this countries traditions and culture apart. In doing so they have ignored the white working classes and created the social problems this country now faces. Whats most annoying is that these so called intellectuals dont have to live with the consequnces every day

Chris, Woodbridge, Suffolk

For someone i never knew, she has left an awful gap in the world of television...god bless.

I remember watching her through the 80's and 90's and was a joy and i remember her always laughing and made people feel at ease with the way she responded to what was going on . What a sad loss

mark pullen, newark / notts, uk

I agree with Melanie Reed on a number of fronts. Firstly, that the world's economy has changed, and unless you're in somewhere like China, heavy industry is no longer necessary, hence the mines had to be closed down. There's no point producing something that there is no market for.
These men may have been left behind, but there is also a level of inflexibility. I was recently told all the woes of a council resident in Hackney who didn't want to move out of the 3 bedroom council house she's was living in on her own, as a 1 bedroom flat would be too small. She also didn't like that the Council wasn't open on weekends.
As for cheap labour, there is a minimum wage so legally speaking, immigrant labour should not be cheaper than local.
It's always much easier to blame someone else for your problems.

LB, London,

So we have a view from a White Liberal Middle Class (WLMC - you know those mentioned as having been part of the disenfranchisement problem to start with) commenting that these men can't and won't change. At the age of 32, I actually feel sorry for these people and sad that their world is slipping away - it is attractive some aspects in the sense of belonging and community that came from it. I've lived abroad a lot and all I find when I've come back is similiar to what I was seeing whilst away, while what I saw before has gone. Change, yes I can cope with it and even embrace it, but I would also like some continuity. The sad fact is that most of thepeople commenting in these papers are those that are well geared to handling change. Those that aren't don't tend to read the Times.

John, Knutsford, UK

This article comments in a negative way that the young working class generation has chosen 'work, cash and shopping malls over education and intellectual upward mobility.' But what is wrong with chosing work and cash?

My husband and I, both graduates in our twenty's, chose education in the hope of intellectual upward mobility, and are now finding that many of our contemporaries, who did not go on to university etc but who 'chose work and cash' are far further ahead both in terms of position on the employment ladder and financial stability, and do not have to face the huge student debts which we are now faced with.

So surely the younger working class is not to be looked down upon for moving out of the deprived inner citry areas but to be praised for not sitting around and fearing change as their elders are being accused of.

This article is dissapointingly steeped in the 'snobbery' towards the white working classes to which it eludes as being part of their problem!

Lucy Taylor, Sale, Cheshire, UK

Look back just a little bit further - the heavy industrialisation of GB and it's economic might up to WWII, was built on the backs of the countries (read mainly the Indian subcontinent, jewel in the crown, but also China, and various parts of Africa and the West Indies) that then produced the immigrants that now so many seem to blame for the troubles of the working class. The correct position is that the historical pendulum swings - losing power is not easy but GB has had 60 years of practice; so stop complaining and find new solutions if you can. Multiculturalism may be a crock but Imperialism was no joyride for those on the receiving end either!

Sanjay Kalra, Rochester, USA/MN

The country has gone to the dogs, employers only want cheap labour, the Government has provided it, and if you are an Indigenous British Person, without either a degree, or membership of a secret society, you are sunk !
'Cheap Labour' dont vote for them any more !

Clive Burghard, LANCING, ENGLAND

Frankly I thought this a very disappointing and intellectually dishonest article. Who has suggested blaming immigrants for everything? The complaint is against the political class to which you appear to belong. It is white "intellectuals" who have ignored the white working and lower middle classes and have deprived them of resources to fund their multicultural experiment. They have also contrived to create a climate against which any complaints by whites are characterised as racist. Whites were never consulted about anything and you continue to insist on patronising them in articles like this. Perhaps you think the problem that you have created is going to go away but I fear that it isn't.

Tam Earl-Aine, cheltenham,

When they were young those old men had no choice. Often education was just not an option. You left school at 14 and went to work in the mines, the steel works or where ever. The vast majority of them worked hard all their lives and often provided a better education and future for their children so that they would have a better life. They did not opt for poor wages and a life of hard, repetitive work. The "better " classes lived well off them. It is despicable to look down on them. As for accepting their lot and moving on - where to???

J. Prevost, Ratingen, Germany

Historically there has always been change, but since Victorian days , multi change has taken place. From the 1880s, mechanisation really takes off. But just as less physical work is required, so working class families got smaller. But after 1945, the amazing change of speed of industrial technology has not only left more and more of the physical workers behind, it has also left the whole culture of the UK including parliament, they are always desparately trying to react to problems, eg global warming, there was enough literature had they had the brains to read it! But no, all political parties hate taking unpopular descisions,---keep them happy, to get the votes! The retired workers seen on TV through no fault of their own, are now trapped in a world of ever speeding change and unexpected immigration. I feel sorry for them, but just the same thing has happened in arable agriculture. In 1948 70% of the population in a close by village were farm workers. Today, only one is a farmworker.

David Vinter, Louth, Lincs., UK.

John, Wirral said:
"It is entirely up to UK businesses whether or not they choose to give jobs to UK citizens or to immigrants / foreigners within / outside the UK. "

That's EXACTLY the problem!!! Our government does even manage ANYTHING of importance anymore. I'm not necessarily for big govenerment but let's at least have SOME!!!!!

Tim, London,
It's true to more than a point I'm afraid, or do we no longer need street cleaners, toilet cleaners, gardeners, postmen, security guards, shop assistants, etc...etc......???

Rob, Paris, France

Trust me, if you think immigrants and non-whites are living in the lap of luxury and 'getting all the benefits' at the expense of whites, you're sadly mistaken.

Uneducated white males no longer have manual jobs to do and they feel bitter towards new arrivals. There are large numbers of immigrants who have been on benefits for years and many will retire or die that way.

The few successful white people I know don't bang on about immigrants. They're too busy making money and looking after their families.

John, London,

This is happening now people.

I know people who run youth football clubs in Kent. Teams from North Kent are provided Lottery funding because on their application form they are able to indicate a large percentage of ethnic minorities.

Teams from less ethnically diverse areas such as Sheppey do not have such ethnic diversity becasue there are very very few resident ethnic minorities.

Lottery grants are provided to the former and not the latter. When questioned the former openly admits its an ethnic diversity issue that enables them to receive extra funding. They get whatever they want is a direct quote.

Why in a day of equality and multiculturalism is there even a section asking for details of ethnic origin on grant funding forms when everyone is deemed to be equal.

This is not jealously or greed this is simply a point of principle. Are we positively favouring minorities to the exclusion of residents. Yes.



All people are equal, although some people are more equal than others.

Salty, Reading,

I think you're right that the inability to change is the point that should be made as to why a certain class of white people are poor etc; however this is charge can also be made against the ethnic communities that get the support from the State. Witness the Scarman report in the early 80s talking about the black community not being able to get jobs and feeling alienated or the Asians of Bradford, Leeds and Oldham of more recent times. The point of the programmes is not that immigration is to blame it's just that one section of the community has been left behind (that is the white working class); there is a point that this section of the community were never consulted about increasing immigration but it has often been this section of the community that has "suffered" the effects

Englander, Southampton, Engalnd

Working class is the wrong name. The working class work and work hard. Read Karl Marx. This lot were the leftovers of the striking classes which took Britain into the arms of the IMF and led to Thatcher and a mandate to reform the over-mighty unions. Individually I have sympathy for them, but collectively they brought it on themselves by deciding that they could bully their way into getting something for nothing. Now they whinge that the world reacted by taking their jobs away.
Oh yes, and let's not confuse the working class with the underclass, who are really the ones that get called chavs and get lampooned in Little Britain.

Dave, Slough,

The concept of "cheap labour" being touted by misinformed respondents is a complete fallacy, as it is always the employer rather than the employee who chooses to cheapen labour costs.

It is entirely up to UK businesses whether or not they choose to give jobs to UK citizens or to immigrants / foreigners within / outside the UK.

This practice is not restricted to "Big Business". For example, we often hear about British farmers (and eventually, the British consumer purchasing farm produce at their supermarket) depending on the so-called "cheap labour" being provided by immigrants to pick the harvest and get their produce from field to store.

People who feel strong objections towards this so-called "cheap labour" should put their money where their mouth is and not purchase such "immigrant gathered" produce from supermarkets. Fat chance of that happening in this country of complainers !!

John E. F. O'Reigner, Wirral, England

Although I don't entirely agree with the whole of this article, I think Melanie Reid makes a very good point that the issue is generational as much as racial, and reflects global economic drivers.

The younger generation of white working class made choices which led to the demise of their parents' culture, simply because they were offered different options; playing the racial card is especially inappropriate when you consider how many of the youngsters embrace the clothes, music and lifestyles of the predominately black american hip-hop culture.

Anyone who spent time in southern Europe (Spain, Greece, Italy) in the 60s/70s will recall seeing the flip side of this coin; the sorrow and resentment of an older generation whose children had chosen to abandon the family land to live and work in America and Northern Europe, destroying a culture that was just as fragile (and as precious) as Wibsey.

sue lelliott, Haslemere,

History has the answer to all these problems. Had the Brits not gone and 'conquered' the world in an earlier era, there would have been none of this immigration from the (so-called) Commonwealth. The grandparent of many of these very (so- called) white working class people, were probably living in India and the West Indies in some luxury - at the expense of the indigenous populations. As you shall sow, so shall you reap.

Jason Mador, London, UK

I disagree with the thesis of this article which seems to be that working class whites are somehow to blame for their plight. The real causes of the problems are Multi-culturalism that has denuded GB and the white majority of its own identity and confidence. Massive unplanned immigration and the special treatment given to those who have stayed here. Whilst at the same time denying the same to the working classes.
This is compounded by statements like
"If there is racism, there is also sexism, bigotry and small-mindedness in equal measure" talk about stereotyping. I suppose this does not apply to the capucinno swigging, well educated, multi-culturalist elite who like nothing better than to look down their noses at the working class while talking about the latest jobs available in "The Guardian". The working classes were and are the backbone of this nation, that we can treat them as worthless remnants of a bygone age whilst pandering to minorities is a disgrace.

Eric, Camon, France

A good article but it doesn't go far enough. If you are a male, over 35 (I am now 52) working class or otherwise, who doesn't want to sit in front of a computer or shuffle bits of paper around there is nothing for us to do. I travelled all over this country and parts of europe to, doing all sorts of diferent types of work but the older i've got my options are becoming less and less.

I am currently at college but the emphasis seems to be more on admin and keeping the Civic Centre happy than studying and learning the subject.

I am studying counselling and mental health issues and it would br great if it wasn't for the paper shuffling and the constant changes to the filing system invented by jobsworths at the Civic Centre who are trying to justify their own existence.

It is not surprising that alot of young men feel disenfranchised.

Simon, Newcastle on Tyne

Simon, Newcastle upon Tyne, England

Another prejudice faced by most of the drinkers at the club is ageism. I am in my late 50s and have worked for years in IT. I have all ways made the effort to keep up to date - I passed the Windows Vista exam only last week. But despite qualifications and lots of experience and there being plenty of jobs . I haven’t had a single interview in months. Advising these men to get more education, qualifications and "computer skills" is to offer false hope - they, like me, are simply not wanted by the job market.

Alan Turner, London , UK

Rob from Paris, what you say is true but not the main point. Yes, increasing supply of cheap labour reduces its price, but much more important is that demand for manual labour has fallen off a cliff. The economy just doesn't need legions of unskilled or partly-skilled labourers to work in factories in their tens of thousands any more.

For example, take the UK motor industry. Car production at around 1.5m is not far off its early 1970s peak. But Nissan can make 300,000 of these cars with only 5000 workers, whereas in the 1960s and 1970s armies of workers would have been needed to man the production lines to produce the sane number of cars.

It's the same story with mining. Before the miners' strike In 1984, 180,000 miners produced 120m tons of coal. In 2004 there were 6000 miners left but they still produced 20m tonnes of coal. Even with the same level of production, one-sixth of the labour is required compared to 20 years ago.

Tim, London,

This article is a long way off the mark. I do not know where you live but let us assume it is a nice area populated by a large majority of white Christian people who pass the time of day with each other. Virtually overnight move a significant number of non white, non Christians in and you will see a similar number of the indigenous population move out. Continue to move these these people in and lose more whites. Then someone will say "white people did not want to live here". Add to this scenario the natural progression of things like industry change and so forth and you have the situation we are now in. This is not the entire story of course but it is basically what has happened. We may have had a colour problem years ago but now it is a culture and religion clash. It is not helped by Town Halls and others being frightened of causing upset to others. If I was moving to another country I would not just go there and expect to be able to change things that did not suit me.

Tiny, Birmingham, England

"Immigration isn't to blame for the plight of the white working class". Agreed, not in itself, but were we, the British people, ever actually asked if we wanted immigration - in this supposedly "democratic" country? ...And who are these working-class men of
Wibsey, if not the "demos"?
I fear that Melanie Reid has missed the point.

Brian Clacey, Croydon, UK

I do not agree with this article, especially after reading Caitlin Morans article, which reflected the current situation better .
From experience these people do not change because they do not know what change is. Change was never explained to them and its consequencies and it it still like that. These people will change, but require a little push and pull, a few will kick and scream, the reason these people have suffered is the crass way Government /Business have dumped immgrants workers on them, not just once, but also for a second time, to fill in vacant jobs positions. (a ready made workforce), but this problem was created through businesses lack of commitment to train the local work force. this will continue until money is made and followed through by the government for training of these people and making sure that the right people get that training.
Business cannot be trusted to make that type of impartial decision.

Mark, Yorkshire,

Very good article. You're very right. It's wrong to blame the migrants for everything but the white working class is ignored and at the same time the working class needs to accept change and the end of industry.I feel we have to be careful about this topic , economic problems and a disinfranchised white working class which blames migrants and foreigners for their woes, not a good recipe. The last time that happened the Nazis gained some votes.

Sarah , Nothernn Ireland,

In the days of "Boys from the Blackstuff" the likes of Yosser and the other guys moved from the Industrial wastelands of Newcastle and Liverpool to sell their skills in other parts of Britain in Thatchers era. I think the point of the debate at the moment is that it is now no good trying to find work elsewhere as immigrants have already beat them to the jobs. If memory serves they also moved to Germany to work cheaply over there and send the money back home. All without doing it legally of course, otherwise it wouldn't have been worth doing. Seems the same sort of thing is happening but this time it's Polish and other immigrants moving to the UK to earn some money (again a lot of it cash in hand) and send it back to Poland.

Paul, Perth, Australia

Big business will find cheap labour wherever it may be, whether by massive immigration or outsourcing to India/China etc. Curbing immigration won't change that.

Neville Watkins, Hong Kong,

excellent point Rob from Paris

Dr Kevin Law, Dundee, UK

Can't say I've noticed - too busy trying to be multi-cultural !!!

Ian Payne, WALSALL,

WRONG.
If you increase the supply of cheap labour (through massive immigration) then those at the lower end of society will suffer...it's benefitted big business but not the lower-paid and will continue to create a less equitable society.

Rob, Paris, France