We must never forget who has allowed the police to fail over the past ten years.
In 2002, at a public meeting, Blunkett and the Chief Constable were told about what was happening. The result? Attacked by the police, assaulted by nulabor thugs and abused by the council. Meanwhile, more decent people die needlessly whilst this government stumbles blithely on.

martin brighton, sheffield,

Yes, Minette Marrin has written a fine, well-reasoned piece. The only thing I would Question is her failure to hypothesise the phrase 'politically correct' These disastrous actions are most definitely incorrect, and it's about time the phrase was consigned to its proper place, the dustbin.Or is this just another example of Newspeak?
joe, Bradford.

Gerald Messoud, bradford, west yorkshire

sadly, police officers are just people and not all of them are 100% truthful. In all honesty, some of the drivel i have heard from officers has given even an average lawyer enough to prove they shouldn't be listened too. There has been a case locally where 2 officers were overheard by the court "matching statements to ensure arrest" - this is simply not fair.

I do agree that the paperwork volume is not condusive to efficient policing, there is surely a lot to be done.

barry, bournemouth, dorset

Possibly the truest piece of journalism I have read in years. Superb, says it like it is, not how the state would have us believe.

Ian, exmouth, devon

"Richard Marriott, Kidderminster, England"

So, blame the Labour Government!! "that old nugget". (Before you start, I hate them with a vengeance)

The one important point you missed, is that governments govern, allegedly, with a mandate from the people who voted them in! So therefore "WE" the great British public are to blame for the state of the nation. We have stood by, whilst our laws and institutions have been neutered. We have turned away from what needs to be done. We have ignored the plea's of the helpless and oppressed. We have created a generation of feckless adults, who are in the process of producing a generation of feckless teenagers. We are to blame, for allowing sleaze and corruption and destroying traditional role models, with moralistic values. Only to replace them with "b list celebrities" and media stars, whose only morals are corrupted by cash. They say that History repeats itself and perhaps we should look to the demise of Rome and stop fiddling!!!

ian, exmouth, devon

An appalling simplistic piece of journalism. Gangs can't be simply controlled with all severity as this journalist suggests becasue the laws are not there to allow it. Additionally, if the necessary laws were in place you would efectively have a police state.

This piece is hysterical and poorly thought out.

Neil Murphy, cromer,

Journalism of this kind should be encouraged, not deprecated. Can't police paperwork be replaced by user friendly computer programs, thus gaining time for the real work? Poll any number of people to discover that Zero Tolerance would indeed be tolerated and most probably welcomed. See what New York is like out in the street now compared to twenty years ago; we could argue that Americans are more compassionate to their fellow man than Brits are, but this didn't used to be the case. Let's not blame the politicians but the voters for letting one party stay in for too long and lose sight of what they were voted in for. Someone's got to get a grip before it's too late. Ian.

Ian SISLEY, Arras, France

Can we remove some of the burden on or policemen and police women with a cessation in trivial lawmaking? I'd start with relieving them of the burden of pursing lawbreakers like me, those of us who smoke in our own cars.

Amanda Treefield, Windsor Castle, Royal Berkshire

There is only one thing worse tha all that. Thats hysterical journalism.

Steve Chapman, Liverpool, Merseyside

So we agree in the main theres a growing problem and those of us who can wish to move on to other countries leaving the rest to cope as they do.

I would like the UK to go back to the times of my youth but thats not possible. As a fireman (note I'm not a firefighter) in an inner city area for many many years I was shot at petrol bombed bottled bricked and abused wholesale by all ages and it finally finished me............ Where were the boys in blue.. well they refused to turnout until they were there in large numbers so we at times had to defend ourselves - and our senior officers denied these things ever happened to the press. I see bullying at times even at university and in the workplace too.

So lets lay the blame;
Politicians looking to get a good pension on the backs of taxpayers
The PC Brigade........... I will never be PC and I pay for that at times
Judiciary/Police/Probation. Out of touch/Jobsworths/MoreJobsworths
THE ELECTORATE FOR VOTING THEM IN

GT, Leeds, UK

"They are afraid on their way to and from school and they learn almost nothing when they get there". What drivel. I would say it is articles like this that are the problem - encouraging everyone to believe the absolute worst .

john ercep, Calgary,

The police are now perceived as little more than an accreditation service for the insurance industry that only manages the post-incident issues emanating from accepted widespread crime.

War has been declared on young people and they are demonised for everything. Middle class parents, scared to suffer their children's tantrums start supplying them with alcohol from the age of 12, and families lead separate lives with televisions in every bedroom and the family meal and day-out a thing of the past.

Children are obstructed from leisure by the cost and commoditisation of sport and the privatisation of municipal facilities in the "everything must wash its face' modern accountancy culture.

John Runtz, london, uk

The only hope you've got is to live in a part of the country where this kind of madness hasnt completely taken hold yet, usually outside the big cities. Try to educate your children well enough so they dont become exposed and embroiled in all of this....oh, and you need a large dollop of blind luck.

Leigh Smith, Cardiff, S.Glam

These issues crop up on a daily basis in every newspaper in the land.

Three things are quite clear.

1. The police service has lost control of the streets.

2 .It is no longer led from the front, it is managed from the rear

3. Technology is no substitute for four slightly bored, six foot, fifteen stone honest coppers with batons.

Kevin Sheridan, Cape Town,

it started with a simple phrase
and escalated to national indifference
the phrase for those old and able to remember.
"leave it to the professionals"

the illusion of today is that the majority are moral
the problem is that big

tates, manchester, lancs

Excellent article.
There ARE really only 2 probs:
- the Police are thwarted by the judicial system, and the paper work and (as already stated by Ray B. of Newcastle under Tyne) the 'politicvally correct' defence support that we give to defending criminals while Police opinion is not relied upon by Magistrates.
- secondly, PARENTS OF TEENAGERS TODAY, FROM MON - FRI> CAN BE SEEN FOR ALL THEY'RE WORTH AS their KIDS SOLLICIT ON THE STREET CORNERS AND BY OFF-LICENCE WITHOUT A CLUE WHERE THEY ARE, OR WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO ANYONE ELSE OR THEIR OWN PERSON
. And our current Gov. leaves them to get away with this abstinence from parenting Scott-free!! How can tax payers revenue ever support a society that operates without making them responsible for who they have 'fathered'?

Juls , NE. Manchester, Lancashire

It's all bureaucracy and red tape. The object has become not to defeat crime but to produce acceptable looking crime figures. It is very much the same thing as the inflation figures. If you exclude all the things which are rising in price from the inflation calculation, you can produce an acceptable looking inflation figure but we all know from our personal experience that it isn't true. The self same thing applies to crime.

Richard, Alicante, Spain

This is a depressing article because it is so true. The problem is that we all feel so helpless. There's not a chance of a politician taking on a problem like this. Every time we have a new home secretary, without fail they announce that they will beat police bureaucracy. I hear that the current one has told police to have another look at it - perhaps by not recording more crimes like canabis possesion. If de-criminalising offences is the answer the downward spiral will continue. It will however help the crime figures and another success will be hailed.
Like many other people who have commented on this articlle, I know of so many people who's aspiration is simply to leave the country.

Robert McColl, Redditch, UK

If the police spent less time looking for a quick numbers (and tax) fix penalising motorists, perhaps they would have more time to spend in areas which damage many more lives. They would not alienate the public so much either.

SNA, Worcester, Uk

We could have a camera on every street corner so nothing would be missed? Would it help? Not a bit, as long as we have groups of people prepared to defend these criminals! Even lawyers are prepared to lie to defend these people. Okay lie is a bit strong, but defend and produce mitigating evidence isn't. Crown prosicution service that should have been scrapped years ago. The whole court process should be between the police and the courts. Hand wringing probation officers providing reasons for courts not to sentence, Social workers preparing reports to make the guilty look good. What a load of rubbish! Get rid of all those report writers, believe police officers in court and we'd very quickly see the right people put behind bars! Scrap legal aid for persistant offenders. Let them defend themselves in court. Give power back to Police and Courts, like it always used to be and scrap all the paperwork. If there's enough evidence to lock someone up, there's enough to take them to court!

Ray B, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK

what a fabulous article and so true. I returned to the UK 4 years ago to attend university - I am now in my final year and happy - although in the process my son may have been damaged... Next week, he's going to hvae to take a day off school so I can attend court on a red light - which whilst accepting responsibility, was being directed during rush hour in an area I didn't know - explaining to the courts on one of the many times I attempted to pay this fine, that had I have been aware of the light, would have been travelling faster that 21 miles - thus a complete mistake - he has had 2 bikes stolen (by the same 12 year old living on the same street - and very well known to police) as well as every single football left in our back yard and yet the police did nothing - how am I expected to raise a child with standards surrounded by police that - in his 9 yr old eyes - only convict me letting the real criminals walk free? Looking forward to leaving this country

carolyn winters, manchester,

While these child killers remain free to carry on, my 19 year-old autistic son remains locked up in prison for the theft of £1.90 - done in anger after being the victim of a mugging himself where the police took no notice of him and told him to leave the police station- and I have the apology letter from them! yes he has issues and is currently being recommended for a hospital assesssment..but it takes time- he has been in prison for 6 months now and he is not even a regular offender. Over the years I have had to battel the authorities for everything and guess what despite 7 years of trying I have failed even to got him a social worker........The Government/ Social Services/Health Service and the Police should be ashamed of themselves

Vicki, Charmouth, Dorset

The Canadian view. This sounds all too familiar. Our politicians, with the exception of the Conservative Party of Canada, have only "ban everything" as a solution to urban gang crime. We are going the same sad road that you have because of the ignorance of most of our federal, provincial and municipal politicians who live in total denial of reality while sticking to a horse that will not run. Pray for us!

Ronald M. Wilson, Westmeath, Ontario, Canada

Bring back the birch!!
My siblings are ten/twelve years older than me! They and their friends may have been little terrors in Liverpool but they all became perfect citizens whenever they visited the Ilse of Man.
Go on! Guess why.

Ed Moran, Torquay,

To say that the police are not interested is untrue, as a police officer, I know the amount of work that goes into looking for gangs and Mr Big. However, trying to get cases past the courts is another matter as the legal system is weighed against the police. as it says above, a simple arrest for theft will take you off the streets for 5/6 hours, what a joke. I am a response officer yet a lot of my time is spent taking statement for unwitnessed criminal damage, unwitnessed theft. Do a get a chane to patrol the street, NO

Jason, Liverpool, UK

All commentators on police actions have one saying "..don't blame the Police, it's not their fault."
Boot licking at its most obvious.
Of course it's the fault of the police. It is naive in the extreme to change the focus on to politicians, or 'the public' , or 'society' (whoever the hell that is meant to be). Do these writers not realise that the police have power representation at the very highest level with the bodies who make the rules?
Giving voice to totally unsubstantiated 'support' which allows a continuous wriggling out of the responsibility for action - when internal action is called for and indeed is in their power to deliver - is one of the major reasons this situation continues to deteriorate. Minette Martin should focus responsibility where it rightfully belongs. On the Police.
It isn't the '...agencies of state' who have responsibility for crime prevention. it's the Old Bill, with Old Bill managers, with Old Bill controllers etc. Stop blaming others

norman speight, London, London

We need a million more social workers, of all colours. As soon as possible.

john fitzgerald, bristol, england

I suggest that the police stop spending all their time and resources on picking off the odd 'Mr Big' and instead arrest the dregs on our streets and give out a message to all young kids that crime does NOT pay. It would be handy if the judiciary could start jailing a few too. At the moment, young kids see their peers driving round in big flash cars and see drug dealing and / or thuggery as a career choice. Look round any inner city and ask the locals - they will tell you who the dealers are. Why aren't the police interested?

Raymond Russell, Liverpool,

How sad and scared our society has become. Blaming parents, legal systems, media, religion, drugs in fact everything our everyday living is made up of. Workable soloutions based on our everchanging society need to be developed from true understanding of why dreadful things happen. A massive task but surely as our society develops in educational growth, positive action could be formulated and implemented. Emigrate or Imigrate strange we are unable to decide which is best.

Jane Peters, Hampshire,

Yes I agree. Our children are being given the message that anything is OK. Violence, bullying, extortion....it all goes on in these so called educational establshments which we insist on grading by academic results. They are too large for anyone to have control over. My son was assaulted by another boy who had ADHD and this was used as an excuse for his behaviour. The child was told that he was excused responsibility for his actions because of his condition. NONSENSE. There is no excuse for this type of behaviour. I was personally criticised by members of my own church for reporting this assault to the police. I am now an expat and hope to be so very a very long time. It's time to get a grip in the UK,

Jen, Doha,

Mr Andrew Martin. You neglected to say which country you are living in. Things do seem very dire there, what with the constant bloodbaths as police mow down innocent citizens, prohibit them from having parties, fail to investigate those who join certain political organisations, and in general behave very much like Hitler's Gestapo. Is this country you describe within the European Community? If so, why isn't the UN taking a hand? May I ask if you are planning to emigrate to England in search of asylum? You are bound to find things much easier here. On your arrival you will no doubt be given a long list describing your 'rights'. These will probably include free accommodation, a weekly living allowance and the freedom to hurl verbal abuse at the people of this country and their institutions. I should, however, first take a short course in basic English grammar so that we will all understand you when you tell us what's wrong with us.

Eileen O' Conor, Coedoba, Spain

Blame the Govt
Blame the CPS
Blame the Police
Blame the parents
Blame the teachers
Blame the magistrates.. Hang On!
I've heard these comments from TV, Radio, Newspapers, academics, the bloke down the pub et al for the last 30 years of my adult life, like it has made a jot of difference in that time!
There is an answer and it is oh so simple, trouble is, because it is so simple it will throw thousands of 'know it alls' out of work (Politicians, lawyers, basically top layer buffoons, TLB's with misguided belief in themselves)
We have the police numbers, we have the infrastructure, we have the laws, we just haven't got a blind clue how to utilise them & the the resources we have to maximum effect, and not heavy handed tactics either!
The plan is flawless however because it would ultimately have the T L B's dismissing it for their own survival it wouldn't leave the ground with any of the current electable parties.
The answer is simple,I don't expect to be asked for it though!

SC, Newcastle, Tyne and Wear

Democratic societies get the police force they deserve. The public vote the politicians in the politicians make the laws and decide in the long run how the laws are enforced. So if you want to blame anyone blame everyone in society (even those who didnt vote, because they should have). Discipline starts at home not on the streets. How often do police here remarks from parents such as "not my son he wouldnt do that". Living in an area of Stoke some years ago we had trouble with teenagers hanging around the rear of our flats. When we asked them to go away and why they didnt hangout near their own house they replied "our parents wont let us". So basically parents stop blaming everyone else and take responsibility for your offspring.

P. Craig, Poole,

Andrew Martin does the word PARANOID mean anything to you. By the way I can see you!

George Orwell, West Midlands, UK

Mr Martin, Please tell us how many people and innocent bystanders have the police killed 'indiscriminately'. Also how many knives and guns you have in your possession. It seems it is the criminals who are killing the innocent bystanders. By the way it is usual to use capitals for the names of towns and cities

billcarr, turku, finland

Quote: "ALEX OF BRISTOL I don't know how old you are. But when I was young (many decades ago), there was FAR less crime. Bank & Post Office counters were not protected with bullet-proof glass. Children played freely outside their homes and outside the sight of parents. Muggings and street crime were rare in most parts of the country, outside certain areas in big cities. When such a crime happened, in most towns and villages it was a nine day wonder. Now it is an almost daily occurrence."

Yes, but what about the second world war!

To parpaphrase Gandhi "Be the change that you want to see" - are we leading by example?

Philip, Haywards Heath, England

ordinary people who wish to come together and party are prohibited from doing so by the police and they are then made criminals if they go ahead and party anyway, we live in a police state and now they are handing the police more weapons with which to kill innocent bystanders, in nelson burnley and colne in lancashire there is a strong support for the bnp within the police force but no one would ever investigate this as the police as we know are above the law. The government asked us to hand in guns and knives yet the real problem is the police who kill indiscriminately and never ever get prosecuted, we are I fear at war and if the police continue to harass beat and kill then there will be even more gangs, because it will be the only way to protect ourselves. There are many arrests around this area for cannabis yet there are hardly any busts for heroin which really prompts one to ask the question are the police scared or are they taking a cut of the proceeds?.

Andrew Martin, colne, england

Too many people prepared to criticise but sit on their hands doing nothing. We are bringing people up to accept no responsibility but be quite prepared to argue for their rights. The two go together.

CT, Norwich, UK

To ND, Kent, England

"the doom" exists in Croxteth and Norris Green. Try telling to the residents there. Perhaps the Police spend all of their time patroling the "Garden of England". Lucky you. Not so lucky for the good citizens of Liverpool.

RJA, Nottingham, England, UK.

I have noticed a large increse in crime commited by youth in my country also, but am inclined to credit to the laws that are passed by misguided lawmakers. In the way that Columbine was used to tighten gun controll, when if the laws were enforced the guns never would have been on the school yard. I cannot speak for other countries but the US seems to use it's people for political manipulation. Especilly it's children . Almost like Hitler turned the youth against their parents ; not implying that G W Bush would do such a thing but it does raise questions.

Cheryl, Ft Wayne,

We have a lot of people living on an island. There will be lots of problems, does anyone expect to live in Eutopia? Seriously, life here isn't all that bad. More police would help, but they don't bring up everyone's kids, parents do. Not all parents are useless either, the majority of them are responsible with a good moral base. Politicians aren't all a waste of space, if they were they'd be history, quite a lot of them do good work. The CPS et al, make odd choices on what to prosecute, but they respond to targets that decide whether or not they will still have jobs in years to come. Less whinging please, write something a bit more constructive without focusing on doom and spreading it in places it doesn't exist.

ND, Kent, England

"this is at root due to an adult flight from responsibility – a loss of a sense of proper authority, replaced by a misguided pursuit of improper authority"

I agree

Penny Georgiou, London, UK

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Members of Parliament should be forced to live in their most crime ridden wards of their constituency for at least three months!!

This would soon focus their minds on the problems that are out there in their community.

Politicians should get a good taste of what their constituents have to put up with all the time. How can our Law makers show real empathy, if they live in closeted worlds as many of them do! We should make our politicians earn their keep and start making a real difference to the lives of people in this country, they have had it too easy for too long.

I hope our politicians enjoyed their long summer break, many people will be just relieved that the summer is over because the kids are back in school i.e. less noise, trouble, harassment etc.

graham Wharton, St. Albans, uk

CD, Epsworth, UK.

I take it that you're a copper. You know, one of those "easy targets". Well how about this for an idea. Stop hiding behind your uniform and your desk, and start policing the streets. You just might find that respect for the police rises significantly in the public eye.

The fact is that many of us citizens don't believe that we have your support. And you want me to reclaim the streets ? Where are you ?

RJA, Nottingham, England, UK

Blaming the police service is not the answer - they are just an easy target that falls when hit. And more studies (produced by meta-analysis) is not likely to uncover the silver bullet that has been missed by the many previous very expensive studies. And the great and the good wringing their hands and passing the beads through their fingers offering more ingenious social policies will not do it either.

So what might?

May be allowing adults to reclaim the streets and be supported by the police and by the law. Take firm stand on tolerance and apply it absolutely. When that is done the hand wringers and do gooders can feel safe again to make new laws.

CD, Epworth, UK

This country is slowly grinding to a halt because from the top down, there are so many 'Jobs for theBoys' who don't actually want to do any meaningful work, just attend a few meetings and of course dinners and then collect an enormous salary and finally walk away with an obscene pension having done nothing whatsoever of value for anybody during their entire'working' life.
As a young man I was able to secure a decent job by working hard, being qualified and having appropriate experience, now, in order to obtain a similar post, it is now necessary to have a degree, {relevant or not} and membership of a particular secret society.

Clive Burghard, LANCING, ENGLAND

ALEX OF BRISTOL I don't know how old you are. But when I was young (many decades ago), there was FAR less crime. Bank & Post Office counters were not protected with bullet-proof glass. Children played freely outside their homes and outside the sight of parents. Muggings and street crime were rare in most parts of the country, outside certain areas in big cities. When such a crime happened, in most towns and villages it was a nine day wonder. Now it is an almost daily occurrence.

Dave, Wrexham,

Why does it always come down to lawyers, Bill Rees?
As a former legal aid crime lawyer, I can tell you that you are right about the technicality bit, but way off on the "highly paid".
I still do crime but people pay me a hell of a lot more for minor driving offences than the state pays for defending murder.
I suggest you re-focus on the problems of the police, and remember that we have a highly paid Crown Prosecution Service to look after the technicalities.

John, Nottingham,

I think more responsibility should be put on the parents of these youths and possibly prison for their failings, It is not the job of the Police service to raise irresponsible peoples kids for them, if you are not going to be able to control them they should be sterilised and made unable to have anymore, they should then be locked up in prison cells for 23 and a half hours a day with their offending brats and see what it is like to be around them all the time. A lot of parents these days have children for the income support and then dont care what the kids are up to as long as they are not at home bothering them.

Eve Ninnall , Sutton,

A great article. I think it adequetly captures the anger and frustration of most people. I often wonder, where are all the coppers ?

RJA, Nottingham, UK

The main piece of evidence used in this article is the fact that the number of violent crimes among 18 year olds has risen in the past 4 years. If one does, in this case, take the statistics at face value, it doesn't provide enough incitement to write articles with this point of view. Nowadays, there are too many reports of how crime of all types is far worse than it used to be. If statistics were compiled from 30 to 40 years ago, I am sure we would be surprised at what a safe nation we live in now.
Of course, this doesn't excuse the kind of behavior written about in the article but by scaremongering people into believing that the nation is unsafe merely worsen the cause of the incidents. This is due to people then not trusting others and by doing this it also removes responsibilty from the public. This leads to the situation where children too have no trust so have guns/knives to protect themselves. By encouraging adults to trust should help gradually to improve the situation.

Alex, Bristol,

It looks as if all this Orwellian surveillance is really about keeping British people down and raising money rather than controlling crime. The latter just isn't a priority as far as I can see. I want these cameras removed -- all of them.

But is it not a commonplace that those who agree to trade their freedom for security always find that they lose both?

Roger Pearse, Ipswich,

You're right in many respects mutatis mutandis regarding Canada, if 25 years of legal experience here gives any perspective. The analysis you present, however, is weighted on the social and political side. Parents today often yield to their two and three year-olds, rather than exercise control. The problem doesn't start at school. One wonders whether failure to assist children through early development can be entirely ignored. Police, politicians and mandarins make easy targets. Parents play a role.

Aaron Rynd, Calgary, Canada

In my 30 years of policing the most noticeable change was the number of officers available on the beat. Despite repeated, and sincere, efforts on behalf of middle ranking officers, every attempt to replace them has been a failure, almost always for reasons outside their control.

Targets, or policing by numbers, has been forced on all forces. It used to be the public we served, now we service the figures.

The Police and Criminal Evidence Act, whilst an excellent piece of legislation, was installed without any checks on the demands of the CPS. Each offence now takes days of procedureal nonsense before a lawyer will deign to throw a glance its way before rejecting it. There are gods with less power than a CPS brief. Yet there was no increase in funding or manpower apart from a few sergeants to run the cell blocks.

Put fully trained PCs back on the beat, ignore the numbers and sort out the lawyers. This won't solve the basic problem but the syptoms will ease.

Derek Smith, Brighton, UK

While I agree with extra policing, that is not the solution. Parents need to take responsibility for their children and their behaviour. Is there any evidence as to the positive effects if any of Sure Start initiatives introduced by the this Government. Where is the proactive approach to these problems as opposed to the reactive approach. Everyone who lived in that area were only to aware of the problems with gangs but the focus appears to have been on 2008 when Liverpool will be capital of culture.

Pat, Liverpool, United Kingdom

Saturday night, Liverpool City Centre -

08:30pm - Serious incident @ local convinience store involving partner who is an employee and various shop lifters causing a mini riot after being turfed out the store.
08:45pm - Police notified
08:50pm - Shop closed for employee safety.
09:05pm - Other half, member of staff and myself get into car to leave the premesis as the police had not bothered to turn up after 20 minutes
09:05:25 seconds - Police pull up infront of car with a screetching halt 'circa- 1925 bank robbery' - tommy guns not included
. police question why parked where parked, explained the situation, was advised would now be liable to 3 points for parking approx 0.5m on a crossing, regardless of the emergency situation. No mention of reported incident?!

I could have parked in an adjoining road apparently. Because of course, that would be top piority while my fiancé is in combat with an HIV+ smackhead.

Go figure? Merseyside police force is laughable!

P, Merseyside,

I'm really shocked at this news.As a young man,I hope this situation will not happen in future,not only in British but also all over the world.
Not long before,I just pay attention to some Chinese news,but now I change my idea.The news all over the world is also impirtant to me.
Tanks for your article!

Harry Chen, Beijing, China

yes we have,we gave governments the right, to buy the future of children,schools healthcare,sports, clubs, futher education,training, all sold for??, why? did we believe ourselfs to be inferior, and were taught dont interupt our betters,working class should work and not be heard, perhaps you are the type, (the butlers poor, the garderner poor. mummy and daddy are poor,)> borrowed chat
yes to publication

michael joseph heavey, cahersiveen/adams town, madness

Whilst we all agree that the police should do less paperwork,but the problem arises if the police have to every detail logged prior to taking a criminal to court to get a conviction. Otherwise a highly paid lawyer will get the criminal off on a legal technicality.
The legal profession must be more responcible and not just look at justice as a massive money making machine funded by the taxpayer.Everyone in the Uk has to share equal resposibility in gun crime.One off one liners in the media from the likes of Cameron to gain political capital wont solve anything.

Bill Rees, Truro, Cornwall

"divisive follies of multiculturalism" - correct. But which politician (or journalist) is going to campaign for the repeal of the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000 which makes it a criminal offence for public sector managers NOT to promote these divisive follies?

Alan Robbins, Haslemere, Hampshire

A solid journal,Ms Marrin...What you wrote about, any country could be inserted for the UK....Thank You....

tim mccarthy, san marcos, U s of A / Calif

Don't blame the teachers - their job has been made impossible and they have no means to control unruly children. Don't blame neighbours who won't stand up to other people's kids - to do so risks a charge of assault from the police. Don't blame the lack of youth workers - the risk of being labelled a paedophile is too high. We have got the society we deserve and we have no right to complain. Either we change it or we put up with it.

Martin Evans, Newmarket, Suffolk

I have stood up to young thugs who targetted me and a neighbour, both single women. The police seemed uninterested. I was so scared and felt completely unsupported, in an area where violent young men could intimidate with impunity. If I took it on myself to chase and catch one, in the ensuing struggle you could almost guarantee i'd be the one prosecuted.

Kids know they can get away with this, they can threaten but no adult dare retaliate. It means adults either can't get involved, as police won't protect us, or they have to take the law into their own hands (trying to avoid being sued by the little 6 foot darlings), either way the adults AND the decent kids who need our protection lose out.

We need a law that allows for adult intervention, at the moment our hands are tied and these gangtsas know it full well. Time to wipe the smirk off their faces, will the law back us up in this? Yeah, thought so...

Name Withheld, Manchester,

The idea that cameras spying everywhere has been seen as a panacea and a cheaper one at that.There is still no other way to prevent crime than for an active police presence - all cameras do is record the event without any protection for victims. Adults should have intervened earlier because these days they are putting themsleves at risk of death from these feral youths. As a teacher I exercised discipline at times without proper support from the authorities or parents, but I'm sure that has become even more difficult nowadays. My parents would certainly have supported punishment if I had misbehaved but these days many parents undermine that authority without taking their own responsibilities sufficiently seriously. I feel sorry for decent young people who are at risk from their own contemporaries instead of being able to expect friendliness. Other countries I have visited don't seem to habe the same problems with aggressive youth with no respect for the law or other people.

kay, leeds,

A good article, as far as it goes. However the problem goes back a lot further, to earlier times in modern history.

1. WW II - the time spent in the UK social fabric by the US forces during this time exposed the "British way of life" to a social structure that was endemically corrupt - lawlessness, mob rule of the late 1800's and early 1900's. And the - for the times - widespread drug use was now being witnessed by a country living under hard times, viewing a society that was - apart from loss of military life - totally untouched by the "hammer of war".

2. The "social engineering" that started in the late 1960's & 1970's, where the imprint of family responsibility was being removed, and replaced by a perception of the "soft left" - the so-called "intelligensia" surging out of the "leftist universities" during that time. This engineering eroded the fabric of strong familiy - where "tough love" was generally the by-word for establishing the structure upon which you taught children

Jos Joslyn, Whitchurch, Hampshire

I understand the chld with the cocktail sausage was charged because he had had previous warnings for aggressive behaviour. Isn't his reported awful suffering in fear at his forthcoming court appearance exactly the punishment we are all crying out for these youngsters to get? And isn't the "why did they bother pursuing something so trivial?" court and media reaction exactly the sort of excuse making for bad behaviour that has got us into this mess?

So make your mind up, Ms Marrin. Do you want the police patrolling carefully and enforcing high standards of public behaviour, or do you want them focusing on major crimes, or will you just sit back and criticise them for not doing one every time something of the other sort occurs?

Jamie Gilmour, Bolton, UK

Blame it on liberalism, the European human rights act, Labour, spin and the army of human rights lawyers...then combine in whatever recipe you like and serve cold. Society does exist and it has a crippling disease. The social contract has been dismembered, torn to shred's by liberal HR lawyers defending constitutional rights to the most absurd extremes and confining social responsibility to the dustbin of history.
Unless this is reversed and some semblance of balance is restored, things will only get worse. Zero - tolerance, hard sentencing, call it what you will....but criminals need to be connected with the consequences of their actions. Crime should lead to the dimunition of the perpatraitors rights in relation to the ordinary citizen.
But I fear rather than address the issue and grasp the nettle... miss citizen Smith, (Ministry of truth) will next year provide statistics proving that the crime rate has fallen, the living standards have improved.

Simon, Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

They've just put a footballer inside for claiming that someone else was driving his car when it was photographed speeding.
Good to see that the priorities are right.
The last time there was an extended period of Labour government the emigration rate shot up (in the 70s). The same is happening again, leaving us to the socilaist, multi-cultural cess pit that has been created. The shame is that, unlike last time, there's no leader of the opposition spitting blood and nails about the state we're in.

John Caslin, Helston, UK

The common sense tradition of reason and moral duty has been very deliberately uprooted by the Cool Britannia of Labour party 'reform'. They hated British cultural norms and dug them up, using the pure relativism of 'multi culturalism' and especially pushing out Christianity as a public social ethic. The result is this moral chaos. The death of Christian Britain, something pushed for by the liberal commentariat, including I suspect Ms Marrin, as well as the liberal left of politics. The feminist attack on the family since the 1960's has also been significant.

Jake, Witney, UK

I have ben teaching for 35 years. In the 1970's one 11 year old boy in our school was shoplifting in the local sweet shop. Eventually the owner followed him out of the shop, detained the boy and looked for his name label inside his blazer. The owner then approached the prep school principal, who called in the boy, and after investigating, soundly caned the boy. The other boys thought this was quite justified as he had disgraced their school. When the boy's father was told what had transpired, he beat his son again for good measure. Were a boy to shoplift today, the owner would be done for assault for trying to get inside the boy's blazer, and of course, the principal would be done for child abuse. The father would be denied access to his son, and social services would step in alongside the child protection team. Are we better off today?

Joe Feld, London, England

Ms Martins article is correct and commentators have been saying it for years.
Nothing happens because we are too lazy and well fed to remove power from the Party Politician who, in league with the empire building civil servant, controls our lives.
We must have genuine local control of our lives. By that I do not mean local control as defined by both Mr Brown and Mr Cameron who just mean "We will tell you what to do and then let you do it locally".I mean allowing loacl people to set their own rules and carry them out, good or bad.
There is no chance of the present incumbents of Westminister doing that. They won't even let us decide if we want to be ruled by Europe.
The only solution to this horror we live in is to elect MPs who belong to no party and are thus under no ones control.The only thing they need to put in their manifesto is that they will vote to pass control of everything that can be managed locally to local people
Then if we get into a mess its ours to get out of

John Atkins, Canterbury, UK

An accurate and somewhat disturbing report. However, the policing problem goes deeper, certainly in London in any event. The use of stop and search powers targetting potential suspects, as identified by 'offender profiling', is one of the most effective means of preventing and detering criminal activity. However, the hands of the police are somewhat tied by constant complaints of 'disproportianality' and 'racial discrimination' in the use of these powers, even where there is overwhelming evidence identifying those offenders most lkely to be involved with firearams and knife point street robberies. Having said that the victims of such incidents are also likely to be other young black males. How many of these youngsters would have avoided becoming victims of crime if the 'civil liberty' pressure groups only realised that the use of these powers are effective and should be supported by all sections of the community.

Phil, Sutton, Surrey

this excellent article ilustrates the failure of parents to act as parents, of government to take the actions needed to clean the streets of vermin who would maim and murder our children. When Al Capone was king in the public's eye as the gangs are now, people failed to demand action. When the blood in the streets got too great -- whatever that level of carnate may be - people demanded change. I'd suggest it is time for parents to take their streets back with organized action. Then, follow the suggestion of another letter writer, use under-cover cops to film those who act without respect and embarrass them before the community. Maybe a bit of shunning of the uncivilized would work. I certainly hope so. Our children are too precious to just leave to the whims of the vermin.

tom omara, Stacy, MN, USA

1) I have read that New York's crime rate decreased significantly when the politicians & police adopted a policy of zero tolerance. Can anyone confirm this? If so, we need such a policy here, as quickly as possible.
2) If the government is not able to control the situation there is a real danger that an authoritorian party will be elected in the non too distant future - people prefer authoritarianism to anarchy. But to take effective common sense measures is wholly against the Lib-Lab philosophy.

Dave, Wrexham,

The interface between juveniles and adults in gangs is possibly the problem.

If the age for criminal responsibility were lowered to 16 or less and anyone over that age in any way responsible for encouraging, inciting, enabling or causing criminal behaviour of minors, including supply or use of drugs or weapons were dealt with as child abusers, a link might be broken.

Career criminals seen by the young not as peers or mentors but as corrupters of social behaviour might help to change attitudes.

dr venables preller, Warminster, UK

So that'll be NU Labour then !

Maggie Millington, Brittany, France

The generations past have to take responsibility for the social experiment that abdicated responsibility to the state rather than the state supporting parents. The society has the notion of collective resposibility of community as a quaint idea to be sacrificed for progress, but this has not worked as we are no longer stakeholders. I am british but had just returned from africa after 20 yrs and i saw two kids fighting on my way to work one kid was ramming the other into a wall with a choke hold I stood and told the kids to break it up.I stood for 10 minites till it stopped I could not intervene because I did not know my position legally .The next morning I saw the the kid (prepatrator) with his mum and told her what happened and the torrent of abuse and filth that came out of her mouth sent me running for cover (figuratively) about how dare I intervine. That was years ago and it has gotten worse .I have seen incidents that people ignore to avoid that kind of response

stephen, lonson, uk

Esther Rantzen, the new NSPCC, Childline - all of these and similar organisations have created an hysterical presumption that all adult males in our society ought to be assumed to be predators until proven otherwise. No sane adult male will intervene to prevent petty crime by children or to help any whom they may note are in distress. In their totally successful attempt to impose their jaundiced view that all children are in danger from strangers, these predominantly extreme feminist dominated pressure groups have destroyed the social compact that previously ensured that children were protected from each other and from those who actually did represent a danger to them by adults who would intervene when necessary. When I was a child I would not have dreamt of misbehaving in front of adults. Look at the difference now that streetwise but ignorant children know that they have the upper hand.

Marion Morrison, Cheltenham,

I'm really pleased that 'social renewal schemes' have been mentioned in this article. This Labour Government thinks that widening a dual carriageway or rebuilding a hospital affects people's day to day lives. It does, but only when you need to use it. Do they really believe that a sixteen year old with no qualifications and from a troubled background gives a damn about infrastructure? While this Government have been busy throwing billions at the middle classes, they've neglected those who have needed our help the most, the youngsters from run down housing estates in inner cities. If you are sixteen and have to earn your living riding round on a BMX dealing drugs, with one eye looking over your shoulder and the other on the scum in charge of operations, you are not going to care about how good your environment looks. This Government's policy of papering over the cracks is starting to show....they've completely missed the point and the opportunity to make things better.

Judy , Liverpool, england

The Courts and the Social workers have created the underclass by destroying the culture that use to be here. Telling people they are useless, victims of ' society ' and will never be normal has an effect..

Desmond Taylor, Houston, USA Tx

Forgive me for returning to this discussion. Drink, drugs, gambling and gaming continue to be features of our society. Long may that be so. They are all things that promote robust behaviour. We want our youths to be ribald, robust and, yet, responsible for their actions. Most youths learn responsibility through interaction with parents, each other, teachers and fear of the consequences, legal and/or moral, that might ensue if they fail to live up to the expectations these various groups place upon them. At any one time 5% of our population will NEVER be susceptible to such a measured approach. Right now they absorb a disproportionate amount of time & money aimed at understanding & assimilating them. This will never happen, despite our best efforts.

'The Job son? Keep the crazies away from the nice people....It'll become clear who's who in time', my tutor constable said to me in 1975.

Brian Phelan, Banteer, Ireland

We in Australia can only share your frustations albeit at a distance. Your anger at the breakdown in societies fabric is understandable and unfortunately shared by most countries in and around the world.
I can only ask when are governments and their lawmakers going to realize that their political correctness and their protection of civil liberties of the offenders is assisting the problems we are now encountering rather than combatting them rather than countering them.
We the general public seem to be stripped of our right to protection and now almost our right to free movement during our daily endeavours by governments and lawmakers apparently remote and insulated from the real world.
Maybe, just maybe your latest heinous killing may jolt your government into action.
The same problems are happening in Australia, but not on such a scale - but it will.

daryl fenby, Melbourne, Australia

My view of the problem is that since the sixties, policies that created crime without consequence has bred a generation of parents that did not fear being disciplined, thus they failed to instill it in their children who have grown up to be a generation of parents who do not fear being disciplined and who have bred a generation of children who do not fear the consequences of their actions.

Tougher discipline is what is needed. Zero tolerance policing and The Human rights act should not apply to people who have violated the human rights of others - they have no regard for the human rights of their victims - why should society have reagrd for their rights?

Rob, Birmingham, UK

Children are too often ignored and neglected. Fathers are making a choice to not bother any more and do not offer any support, emotionally, financially, and mothers are left to do the job of two parents and yet often receive very little support and are under pressure - what are men telling their children? It says, quite possibly: you are dispensable, kid, I don't need you. So then it is little surprise in this culture of no obligation that some boys particularly are able to literally dispense of each other. It is time parents who leave their children and do not make any contribution at all are made criminal. End this complacency. A father should at the very least provide financially for his children or face arrest and a criminal record. Families should not be forced to stay together, no; violence against women and children must be addressed. Adults need to learn how to parent as too often their own childhood did not provide a good foundation. Schools need a new direction.

Kate, London,

Spot on Miss Marrin - however, try repeating your comments on the BBC and see how much oxygen they get.

Tom, London,

The Home Office's annual statistics, published in January, show that the scale of death and injuries caused by “real” guns (excluding air weapons) has risen significantly under Labour, from 864 in 1998-99 to 3,821 in 2005-6.

Clearly, this government have failed in a primary duty to protect and safeguard the citizens of this country. We may be on the verge of anarchy in this country. What an utter disaster Labour have made of this Nation.

Rick, London, England

Everyone is banging on about David Cameron's tactical blunders but let's not forget who is talking about social responsibility. It's the Cameroons.

Cameron special adviser Danny Kruger's "On Fraternity" was recently published by CIVITAS. What do you think he said?

"Conservatism is the philosophy of society. Its ethic is fraternity and its characteristic is authority--the non-coercive social persuasion which operates in a family or a community. It says 'we should...'"

Without authority and social responsibility you get a bipolar world of radical individualism and of suffocating state coercion: liberty and equality but no fraternity.

In case you are interested, Marrin uses the word "authority" three times in her article.

You can muck up on tactics, but when your strategy is a good one it can make the winning difference. Maybe there's hope for "Dave" yet.

Christopher Chantrill, Seattle, USA

Thank you Minette, it will be a comfort to Police Officers to know that you don't hold us entirely to blame. It seems a shame you have nothing to say about the parents, and extended families of offending children who shape their lives from birth.
Still the view must be very clear from the safety of your keyboard, I wonder if you have any further advice for frontline Police Officers, no doubt the next time one dies there willo be money to be made from writing of the tragedy

Andy, Worthing,

Coming from the States I could only wish for the 12 knife killings, and a view that apolozing to the cop would be enough.
I can't give good advise on my nations crime problem, let alone England's.
But watch, as America's underclass crime and violence problem is, so yours shall be.
Only until people with education, values, and common dececicy and concern for the common man are willing to crack heads, take control of your community and not sit back and let your neighbors and the government solve your problems will this stop.
In America, some communities are bad and violence prone, others are not. The single difference in the two are people who believe in tolerance and crime and those that are intolerant, but live in safe communities.

Bad Javelina, Sea Bright , USA

I agree with everything in the article. There is one more point which I wish to draw attention to which the governent has been completely culpable and responsible for.

It is based on the adage that "Crime doesn't pay" not for the criminal but for the government! What's more the government has identified a group of people who do pay: Motorists! I speak of course of the incredible rise in revenue harvested from parking fines and speed cameras.

Back to crime again it's even got to the point where the criminal feel that the law is on their side. If you are a shopkeeper and you detain a shoplifter or a vandal you may find yourself at the wrong end of a prosecution. I've heard that some shopkeepers don't bother reporting incidents of shoplifting or vandalism to the police because they believe that the police are not bothered with "low level crime"

John Goh, Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire

Talk to any Police Officer below the rank of Supt (ie .the Officers that actually do the work) and you will soon realise that the gulf between them and the cabal of Senior Officers and the various branches of the Judicary is enormous.
There has been a refusal by the Civil Servants in the Home Office to first, realise the enormity of the problem, followed by a blanket refusal to accept responsibility for the poverty of their response.
For at least 20 years the statistics have been manipulated to
prove whatever has been necessary to "prove"
Genuine reductions in Crime have been through technological advances,very little by Police efforts, and even less by Home Office psycobabble and "mangement structure capability enhancement".

Peter Bolt, Redditch, UK

"The one common thread that weaves its way through these stabbings, shootings, teenage gangs and the genuine fear of people in the community is DRUGS".

Total tosh. The common thread is the steady abdication by parents, generally in the C2, D and E levels of society, of their responsibilities as parents. To ensure that their children are taught good manners, that they attend school regularly and work when they're there, that they they know that it's better to help others than to help themselves, that they know right from wrong, that they accept social responsibilites, that they feel secure and confident in themselves.

Chucking the blame on drugs is as shortsighted as too many parents are these days.

Allan, Skipton,

The real blame lies in the greediness, irresponsibility, missing principles, laziness, carelessness, and general contempt for anything of a good standard set by a soulless society, a society that is willing to call its children 'kids' and that is interested only in gambling, alcohol, drugs and getting something for nothing.

It has little to do with the police, schools, 'missing' sport venues, or not having any more National Service.

It has to do with parents who aren't called to account for the responsibilities they have taken upon themselves without thinking and who are then willing to blame everybody else including Brown, Blair, the EU, the local council and in particular 'them'.

Ian, Zurich, Switzerland

Minette Martin's article is spoiled by the ritual jibe at "teachers who can't or won't teach". Why should teachers be expected to stand up to a young thug when (a) they run the risk of being overruled by their heads or an appeals panel, and suspended or even charged if any violence occurs; (b) when, even if the thug is charged, he or she cannot be named "for legal reasons"; (c) when, if the thug in question is found guilty, the magistrate or judge imposes a minimal sentence; and (d) when a teacher is actually murdered - as in the Philip Lawrence case - the foreign-born thug responsible is not only to be allowed to remain in this country after he has been released from his "life" sentence, but is apparently to be given a new identity and accorded police protection at vast expense to the taxpayer? I am sorry, Ms Martin, but the greatest share of the blame for the present situation must rest fairly and squarely on those who make and enforce the law.

Geoffrey Warner, Didcot,

since the age of times since a 'civilisation' had been created that adults betray their children .
The difference is that now news spread instantanealy

ana, lisboa, portugal

since a 'civilisation' had been created that adults betray their children .
The difference is that now news spread instantanealy

ana, lisboa, portugal

Blair instigated the 'respect' agenda. Gangs want 'respect'. Call it by its real name; fear. Politicians, civil servants and gangs all want us to fear them. Democracy and safe streets get in the way of that agenda; which is why they are under attack.

Peter, Oxford, England

Society cannot legislate good behavior.
The foundations and continued structure of which should be in the home -reinforced during schooling expected (demanded?) by society thereafter. It seem that we are all too keen to accept 2nd rate in so many ways.
(Although when compared with abroad (as we so aften are) it seems that 2nd rate is a standard we should strive to acheive!)
We will never have police on every corner (Never had!) but question Chief Constbles on a bonus for nmber of @offences' (trivia) detected!!
'MM's second to last para' above sums it all up!

mike, oxford, england

The one common thread that weaves its way through these stabbings, shootings, teenage gangs and the genuine fear of people in the community is DRUGS. When thirteen year olds are making thousands of pounds a month selling drugs, parents have been economically corupted,and the people supplying the drugs are better financed, equiped, and motivated than the beleagured authorities, it is time to take a serious look at the disaster that has been "The war on drugs". Its way past time for an inteligent, non political debate on how to "manage" drug supply and "treat" addiction. The government propses spending 75 Billion pounds on a nuclear deterent to keep us all safe in our homes while our comunities and our society is being ripped apart from within. Its shameful to hear the same old soundbites from politicians and council leaders. Maybe some of that 75 billion would be better invested in these communities.

Brendan Kelly, Frankfurt, Germany

One - perhaps the principal - reason why the police have abandoned the streets is that walking-the-beat is deeply unpopular with police officers. They all have to go through a period of this at the start of their careers but most officers try to move into more sheltered activities - such as dog-handling, frogman units, traffic etc - just as soon as they can.
There is also, I suspect, a belief amongst senior police officers that somehow technology will come to the rescue - the steady proliferation of CCTV cameras, DNA databanks expanding to the "perfect" state where everyone is on file....
Its not going to work : there really is nothing so effective in preventing crime (and knowing what is going on) as having plenty of police officers out and about on foot. If its unpopular then let's pay a premium for walking the beat - with offsetting reductions in pay for the "sheltered" activities.

D F Berry, Southampton, UK

the Liberal ?

Stop and Search Gone.!!
Disipline Gone !!
Religion Gone !!
Britishness Gone !!
family ties gone!!
Communitys broken up!!
Law & order gone !!
Crime rules OK !!

The Libral might just as well have pulled that trigger on 11 year old Ryes Jones himself.

george deighton, london, uk?

The cameras, surveillance, petty laws and bans are not made to control the criminal minority. They are there to deliberately instil a level of fear and distrust within the law-abiding majority. This fear is then exploited in order to ram through ever more draconian powers and surveillance systems.

In order to realise their socialist utopia, the are govt are confiscating ever more of our wealth in taxes. This requires that potential dissenters are firmly discouraged. Who is going to demostrate against the govt if they know that the police state has their face, fingerprints and DNA on record? One black mark against you on the national database and your career will be in ruins.

We are sliding towards a totalitarian nightmare. If find it chilling when new measures are accompanied by the mantra that they are for "the security of the general public", when clearly they are for the security of the govt itself. The pigs are now learning to stand on their hind legs.

David Rochester, Liverpool, UK

The writer asks: if more police are needed why aren't they deployed? Maybe part of the reason is that too many of the taxes we pay are going to fairly useless and woolly social sector jobs - Co-ordinator-of-this and Analyst-of-that. There has to be the political will to stop this violence - the state can't just continue to shrink away from it as it has been doing. Public servants - the police, politicians - should protect law-abiding people and at present they're failing repeatedly. They need to come down really, really - and consistently - hard on these lawless yobs. Sadly, it's true that many of them are feral. Once the word goes out that they can't get away with assault & murder any more, then society can also address the crucial issue of socialising kids properly.

cath, london,

Feral youths, the product of feral parents, have always constituted a portion of every society. They're only becoming significant now for the reasons Minette points out - we children of the Sixties have abrogated our responsibility to regulate the activities of that portion of society in any meaningful way. We threw all the rules out of the window in a spirit of post-war euphoria and only now are we beginning to understand why they were there at all. New Labour's creation of 3000 'new' offences in the last 10 years (mostly aimed at the, already, law-abiding citizen) is sad evidence both of their realisation that 'something must be done' and the extent to which their ability to do it is being strangled by their own, fundamental ideologies. I was a Police Officer from 1971 to 2000 (with an 8 year interlude as an academic & teacher) and I witnessed the effects of the cancer of uncertainty and relativism as it overtook both institutions over the decades. I moved to Ireland 2 years ago.

Brian Phelan, Banteer, Ireland

Excellent article by Minette Marrin, but isn't it clear what the problem is? It is ten years of this ghastly Labour Government which has created the mess British society is in now. Who else is to blame for a culture of political correctness, for undermining the traditional family, for not building enough prisons and for losing control of our borders???

Labour Out!

Richard Marriott, Kidderminster, England

Gang culture is glorified on many (particularly satellite)TV channels. Certain programmes are presented under the thin veneer of investigative journalism but are really an excuse to broadcast footage of violence and senseless brutality. The target audiences of these programmes are the impressionable young and the less intelligent sectors of society. But channels like Bravo are not alone; the US film industry has been spewing out the message that guns and violence are cool for decades - they have made billions under the protection of the liberal PC establishment. Together they aid and abet the degradation of our youth.

Carlos, Gibraltar,

Who is giving these thugs the idea that they can form a gang and make a living bullying and killing those that prevent them selling drugs? What in society,TV, movies, rap songs, games or families provides the impetus to break the laws of the land? Even kill?
Schools churches government are trying BUT why is the message to be a good citizen NOT getting through to these kids? Prison is no deterrant!
How can we help the children to see the error of their ways?
Parents have to do their job of proper parenting ALL the time- help the teachers and police to develop good citizens.
Parents who drink and take drugs who gamble and break the laws are not a good example. Mothers and Fathers have to be the better role model than the gang leaders!

DCoates, Brighton, Sussex UK

It is refreshing to read that, "The police are not entirely to blame." The notion that ASBOs will "remove" gang leaders is laughable. These teenagers who are 'known to police' simply break the conditions of their ASBOs at will. When arrested, the courts release them back into the community with a slap on the wrist. Some of the most persistently criminal young men in this country are granted bail by the courts even when charged with the gravest of violent offences. It is difficult to believe but I know of several teenagers who have been given bail for murder. The police took them off the streets. The courts let them out. So no, the police are not entirely to blame.

Nathan Fane, London,

It appears that certain young people regard it as a matter of honour that they should blatantly punish those who show them disrespect. I contend that people do not deserve respect unless they are respectable, and respectable people do not attack others for trivial reasons.
If there are serious complaints, the police should send out a body of plain-clothes officers, surreptitiously wearing kevlar and carrying guns and video cameras, and one of them should 'provoke' a suspect, for example by suggesting that he properly disposes of litter. If the suspect apologises, well and good, but if he threatens the officer, the rest of the party should disclose themselves. The suspect should then be given another chance to apologise, in which case his public humiliation may be sufficient punishment; if anyone attacks the police they will of course be entitled to defend themselves and arrest offenders.

Colin R Merton, London ,