‘So, Minette Marrin – all cultures are equal, yes or no?” This was the
challenge put to me live and rather scarily by a BBC World Service presenter
a few years ago. She was chairing a debate about multiculturalism in front
of a large audience of people who were mostly black or brown. Judging from
her manner and from the previous panellists’ remarks, her question was one
of those that expect the answer yes, at least from a civilised person.
“No,” I said firmly, but nervously, since I don’t like inviting contempt and
anger any more than anyone else. Those were the days when the multicultural
orthodoxy prevailed and when it was genuinely hard to point out that
cultures that treat women as irresponsible inferiors, that hang young gay
men, mutilate criminals and silence debate are not equal to ours. They are
inferior and it is not self-evidently racist to say so.
For at least 20 years there was a debilitating fog of moral relativism in the
air, a miasma of guilty self-loathing, to the point when some natives
persuaded themselves that although all other cultures were equal, ours alone
was less equal than others, or might at least be offensive, and should be
suppressed. Even the phrase “host culture” was considered unacceptable.
We have moved on since then, supposedly, and surprisingly suddenly. Many
prominent multiculturalists, including the Commission for Racial Equality
itself, have recently performed swift U-turns and the bien-pensant orthodoxy
now is that multiculturalism has been a divisive failure. Integration is the
new big thing.
The host culture is no longer to be demonised, but to be accepted and
respected. Even manipulative politicians, such as Gordon Brown, now realise
that saying so will do them no harm these days. It might seem,
superficially, that the Victoria Climbié report and the massacre of 7/7 in
London, among other shocks, have brought us back at last to our cultural
senses and our cultural self-respect.
Not entirely so, unfortunately. There are still signs that many people are in
the grip of the old orthodoxy; its hold on public institutions and the
public mind seems to be remarkably persistent. A week ago The Sunday Times
reported that some Muslim workers in Sainsbury’s are refusing to check out
purchases of alcohol on the debatable ground that it’s against their
religion. Whenever the sinful stuff is presented by a customer at the till,
the Muslim expects an infidel colleague to hurry over and sully his or her
hands with the transaction instead.
This is preposterous and a depressing sign of the times. But the painful truth
is it would be just as preposterous to blame the Sainsbury’s Muslims. For
years now ethnic minorities have been encouraged to insist on their cultural
differences and on their human right to have these differences respected and
actively promoted. It is hardly surprising that they have responded by doing
so. It is those who have encouraged them who are to blame.
The point about this story is not the absurd demand, but that Sainsbury’s gave
into it, quite unnecessarily, of its own free will. It wasn’t even being
pressed to do so by any prominent Muslim figures. Ghayasuddin Siddiqui,
leader of the Muslim Parliament, said last week: “This is some kind of
overenthusiasm. One expects professional behaviour from people working in a
professional capacity and this shows a lack of maturity. The fault lies with
the employee who is exploiting and misusing their goodwill.”
Surely the fault lies with Sainsbury’s, for cultural funk. And it lies with
all those others who out of some strange abandonment of common sense – such
as the government’s laissez-faire guidelines on wearing Muslim veils in
schools last week – bottle out.
Think of the headmistress in Yorkshire who removed stories about pigs,
including the Three Little Pigs, from her school in case they might offend
her tiny Muslim pupils. Think of the councils that have banned Christmas, or
hot cross buns, or the council worker who banned a flyer about a Christmas
service from a council notice board but held a party to celebrate Eid.
I remember being shown round a good care home for young people dying of a
terrible degenerative disease. Unable to move, talk, see, hear, taste or
eat, they had to be spoon-fed pureed food and the staff told me proudly that
they made a point of respecting cultural and ethnic differences. In practice
this meant that one person (the only person who was not 100% British) had a
great deal of meat in her puree (unlike the others) because she was a
Turkish Cypriot, from a meat-eating culture.
I could only assume these care workers were the victims of extensive brain
washing. Theirs was the behaviour of underconfident and undereducated people
who have been ceaselessly bullied by ideologues.
This example is trivial, but there are countless well documented cases that
are not trivial, because cumulatively they constantly wear away at our
customs and our identity – we being the host culture. In many cases Muslims
(or Jews or Hindus – or Cypriots no doubt) who are asked to comment say
publicly that it was all quite unnecessary. They would not have been
offended at all and nobody had bothered to ask them. People in the grip of
this daft racial correctness take it upon themselves, or make others feel
obliged to go far further than good manners or common sense or the law would
take them.
In the case of European Union regulations this is known as gold plating and
the British bureaucrat is notorious for it. Some – perhaps a lot – of the
European red tape and rules that we love to hate may not be European at all
but British, added on to satisfy the strange moral imperatives of
interfering apparatchiks. Ethnic gold plating is even more mysterious; it
comes from a decadent loss of belief in ourselves, in our own culture and in
its superiority – warts and all – to others that may threaten it.
No well mannered person wants to go about pronouncing that western
civilisation, particularly the British variety, is better than others. But
sometimes it is necessary to risk giving offence, to defend what matters. It
may not cause offence; it might even command respect.
minette.marrin@sunday-times.co.uk
I think what people have problems with is when a new arrival doesn't adapt/integrate AT ALL. When you don't, you just stand out, and it looks weird. I can understand why someone might want to hold on to the old culture - my parents are from Hong Kong, and I was born and raised in Canada - but you aren't supposed to hold on to everything. You left a country that probably oppressed you in one form or another. Even if you left for other reasons, keeping the old culture can get you laughed out of the old country when you go back to visit. Culture everywhere evolves. That's why Italian Americans don't have the same traditions as Italians in Italy. Some things done by Italian Americans are probably long gone in Italy!
Cynthia, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I have been warning of the adverse affects of multiculturalism for some years. See my blog on "Is it time to call a halt on immigration within Europe" and "Turkey in the EU"
www.pfieldman.blogspot.com
peter fieldman, Paris, France
Muslim Parliament? MUSLIM PARLIAMENT? If this nonsense is acceptable then we already have a state within a state. So what happens next? A Unilateral Declaration of Independence? Let's face it - we already have double standard laws which make it an offence to question or criticise the attitudes and behaviour of ethnic or religious minorities, whilst members of those minorities have carte blanche to be as intolerant and offensive as they like. The establishment of this "intra-state" should be considered a crime against democracy, excluding as it does, non-muslims. Could it in fact be considered an act of rebellion, a supplanting of the existing democratic process? It can serve no purpose other than dissidence.
Nigel Robson, Bridgwater,
Diversity/Multiculturalism is a philosophy of last resort, of necessity, once a society has already been damaged and replaced by immigration from alien cultures.
The cultural Marxists of the left need unassimilables in order to fulfill their goal- the destruction of western civilization.
Meanwhile, people like Ms. Marin will whine about the water on the floor, but never stop to turn off the taps, or ask who turned them on full to begin with.
Jay Maxwell, Derby UK,
Please write an article on PFI:
Why are poiticians worried about a £4 bllion increase in govt borrowing to £36 billion when PFI is probably more than £100 billion off balance sheet!!??
What are the terms?-20years,40years
What are the interest rates compared with normal Govt borrowing at 3.5%? on premium bonds or 4% on bonds?
Costs of borrowing is at the expense of nurses and doctors.
I am sorry I don't know the answers to my questions but I bet it would make an interesting article which could spill over into T.V debate!
Tony Hume, Haywards Heath, West Sussex
There is a British culture out there, and an English one too. Much of our folk tradition was rescued by folk song and dance societies in Sussex. Go to Suffolk and related areas and you will find that Molly dancing lives.
OTOH, you could step back and look at our traditions of modern culture, such as classical music, painting, poetry, novels, the British-English theatre tradition, the brewing tradition, the countryside itself and what goes on in it, architecture, eating (our national diet still recovering from the loss of variety caused by two wars) and, if you have to moan about it, then get off your backside and help reconstitute it. Sitting there saying "I might be more inclined to agree with you if Britain had a culture, or, indeed, if England had a culture." betrays something more than ignorance of the facts; it means that someone is sitting on their bottom and not getting involved with their culture.
Peter Hood, Bookham,
I might be more inclined to agree with you if Britain had a culture, or, indeed, if England had a culture.
Kidd Garrett, Bristol, UK
Of course you can argue that some parts of western culture, in particular such inventions as democracy, human rights, women's rights , are superior and I do believe that too.
But the problem that lies at the bottom of the Sainsbury and Muslim doctors mess is the simple fact that in Britain (and in other countries,too) religion still plays a far too dominant role in public life. Ethical beliefs based on divine revelation which rather funnily often seems to be pretty contradictory are a poor source of rules that regulate life in a society, simply because nobody bothers to give convincing reasons why people should follow these rules other than because God/Jesus/Mohammed have preached them.
Still, nobody dares to offend these religious groups and instead of rolling back their influence, governments in Britain seem bent on increasing their influence by leaving children at the mercy of deluded preachers in faith-based schools.
No wonder we still have these ridiculous problems with the pious
simeon, Oberhausen, Germany
Yes, political correctness is killing our culture.
How did it become so influential? Did it originate from the liberal intelligentsia as a means of forcing their perverted ideology on the rest of us?
They with position of power are destroying what took Britain centuries to develop into an advanced freethinking and democratic nation with history to be immensely proud of.
Arguing that all cultures are equal is like trying to convince us that the Earth is flat? How can you possibly equate a nation that indulges in medieval and barbaric practices with a civilized British democracy?
I really am concerned about the ludicrous consequences that are occurring on almost a daily basis in the name of Political Correctness. It is slowly but surely destroying our democratic culture. Something which Hitler failed to do.
Tony, Dunstable,
I will refuse to go to Sainsburys again until they overrule this stupid decision. Applications for employment should state that whoever is employed may not raise any objection to any part of that employment contract. I'm sure am not alone of being heartily sick of these Muslims who think they can get away with anything because of their religion. If they don't like the work involved then don't take the job! There are plenty of others who will be glad of it! I wish they'd all just 'shut up'!!!
wendy, Alicante, Spain
What a refreshing pleasure to read such an enlightened article. My profound hope is that we can throw off the pseudo-political correctness that seems to have pervaded the UK for many years now and finally move forward culturally. The slogan should be "integration with respect for differences" - and the minorities are as responsible for achieving this as the majority!
Jeff Oliver, London, UK
Nobody has a right not to be offended.
Phill Barlow, Wirral, UK
==============================================================================================
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I am glad to read this article, it means some are coming to their senses.
Why, pray tell, is there a leader of the Muslim Parliament? Are there several governments in Britain or plans for it?
Nevertheless, I must give Mr. Siddiqui kudos who points out (regarding his own Muslim brethern) "The fault lies with the employee who is exploiting and misusing their goodwill.†This took a courage not found in many politicians these days and points out the truth~ Britian is (against all common sense) putting itself in Cultural dhimmitude to Islam~ it is British (and in deed, Western Civilization's) cultural suicide.
dhimmitude = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude
In particular, look at the described "Etymology" of the word for a modern definition.
DRS
==============================================================================================
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DRS, Nebraska, USA
A similar situation happened to me in the US. I purchased a wine-cooler product in a grocery store and because the checker was under age twenty-one she had to get a checker over legal age to ring it up. I laughed at the nonsense and used the occasion to instruct my children that this is an example of what political bureaucrats do to justify their jobs.
Robert Burnett, Las Vegas, USA Nevada
I firmly believe that junk food does great harm to people's health. If I worked at Sainsvury's would I be allowed to refuse to handle the equivalent of turkey twizzlers? Of course not. I would be sacked for refusing to carry out my job.
Let's get real.
Anne, France,
Why is it that the whole World wants to live in white christian democratic societys?
Frederick, London, UK
" Ethnic gold plating is even more mysterious; it comes from a decadent loss of belief in ourselves, in our own culture and in its superiority – warts and all – to others that may threaten it. "
Exactly what will happen if we allow the PC fools to reign...
William Naegele, Albuquerque, NM USA
I whole-heartedly agree with Minette Marin's article. I work in the public sector, which is largely run by upper middle-class left-wing liberals. To be blunt, they feel much more comfortable with people from other cultures than with white working-class Britons, and I think that is at least partly what is behind their over-enthusiastic promotion of multi-culturalism. The other is that to be a left-winger, you have a tickbox list of things to believe in unquestioningly, and multiculturalism has been one for a very long time.
In the organisation I work for, there is a training programme which reserves places for black and minority ethnic students. This despite the fact that the only ethnic group under-represented at higher education (i.e. in proportion to the population) is white British. Myself, I believe all places in education and at work should be filled purely on merit.
Jessica, Reading, UK
The Welsh poet, Dylan Thomas, perhaps said it best in his poem, 'Do Not Go Gentle Into that Good Night'. Though written for his father, the sentiments expressed would seem appropriate for our time and what remains of our 'Western' cultures as well. I pray for us all…
'Do not go gentle into that night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light'
Elisha Moor
Elisha Moor, London, England
We tolerate that which does not tolerate us. Therefore we cannot maintain today's way of life much longer.
neil, waterford, ireland
"The leader of the muslim parliament" reference indicates that there is an alternative political system/government operating in Britain. This doesn't disturb people who are just worried about their supermarket alcohol transaction?
Maybe if vast numbers of people were not so enebriated and consequently have squewed priorities, the west would not now be facing foriegn domination. Sweden under System Bolaget had restrictions on alcohol sales and maintained greater homogeneity.
Alcohol should not be sold in supermarkets. Interestingly, before the influx of foreign workers, alcohol was not sold in supermarkets.
otis, honeton, uk
Excellent article, and about time. Finally, someone with the courage to raise these issues without pandering to politically correct policy of appeasing every Muslim in the UK. The article, I would suggest, accurately reflects the sentiments of the majority of the British people, but we seldom see them printed.
Where do these absolutely ridiculous, over-zealous, narrow religious practices end? Should Catholic pharmacists refuse to handle condoms?
Now I read Muslim student doctors refuse to take exams on alcohol-related, or sexually transmitted diseases? When one becomes a doctor, if someone suddenly collapses (possibly) smelling of alcohol, should they walk on? Surely their Hippocratic Oath transcends any other consideration, whether religious, ethnic, gender etc.?
Quite frankly, enough is enough. If you don't want to handle alcohol, then don't work in that store. If our culture so offends you, then please, please... move to one that does not.
Michael , London, UK
Blah, blah, blah, more of the same "political correctness gone mad" stories. You dont even need to read them you know exactly what they are going to say. I couldnt be more bored about these urban myths of "Christmas being banned" or "conqer fights requiring googles" if they are actually true please provide some evidence rather than presenting obvious rumours as facts.
Matthew, Belfast,
The usual nonsense from Minette Marrin. What I want to know is: what precisely is this 'host culture' she speaks of? Does it include the fish and chips assimilated from Jewish cuisine? Does it include the latin words we've inherited from our Roman conquerors? We've always been a mongrel nation - the richness and variety of our language testifies to that - and we should welcome the input from other cultures, as long as it's within the law. The problem with Marrin's analysis is that she conveniently sidesteps any definition of 'Britishness'. I suspect it may be heavily biased towards the Anglo-Saxon, involve civilised dinner parties and trips to the opera. If that's the case, then give me an afternoon out watching foreign footballers, followed by an Australian lager and a hot curry any day.
John Biggins, London,
The British Muslims are,unitentionally I hope, driving up a Cul de Sac.
If they insist on not doing certain tasks,either as a shelf stacker in a Supermarket or as a Medical Practioner in the NHS they can hardly complain if they are passed over for promotion or advancement.
Thus they can hardly ask for the benefits either financial or in kind accrued to the rest of us if they are not prepared to play a full role.in the greater society at large.
Peter Bolt, Redditch, UK
I feel genuinley warmed to read an article in a mainstream broadsheet that defends our culture rather than demonise it. This marked changed may finally allow people in a position of authirity to stand up for british culture and stop our slow descent into self loathing. Finally getting a point back for commonsense well done bring on the revolution.
Aston, Exeter uni, Cornwall
Excellent article. I was brought up to have respect for people regardless of culture so for example when I visit a muslim country I respect their culture, I dress appropriately covering my head, arms and legs so as not to cause offence. Therefore I expect anyone who isnt from my cultural background to respect my culture when visiting or living in my country. When in my own country, I find a woman wearing a veil covering her face, or a muslim man refusing to shake hands with me because I'm a woman, or refusing to serve alcohol totally offensive. People who behave like this have views unfortunately based on ignorance and believe in values which we ditched in the middle ages. We used to burn witches at the stake... but thank goodness we've come a long way since then.
Linda, London
Linda, London, England
Secularism is the way to handle differing religious beliefs in the public domain. Our society should push Christianity onto an equal footing with Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and so on. Lumping Christianity in with the 'host culture' is an unnecessary distortion.
I doubt many people would be inclined to argue over the merits of a cultural practice of, say, touching women without permission or forcing someone into an unwanted marriage. Society is, on the whole, clear and confident about that. Yet religion seems to have special privilege. Article 9 of the HRA is not an absolute right but a balanced one.
Guidance on how all religion, rather than just Islam, should be handled in the workplace or in public places would be clearer and more equitable for all citizens, whether Muslim, Christian, or followers of a more unusual or less institutionalised belief system.
David Jones, Loughborough, UK
Can Minette and others who oppose Sainsbury's decision (which isn't a concession just for Muslims, but a policy to consider such requests irrespective of religion) explain whether they are opposed to the allowance made to pharmacists, who can refuse to fill prescriptions for contraceptives or the morning after pill if this clashes with their ethical/religious beliefs?
If they are not opposed can they explain their double standards?
Natalie Thompson, London, UK
It really does got to show what a terrible state Britain is in. If you want to live in Britain then you should respect BRITISH traditions and values and that includes celebrating Christmas and Easter and many of us do enjoy the odd alcoholic beverage! Fair enough if someone has a different cultural background, we have had to learn to respect and appreciate theirs so why can't they do they same?
Miss Murray, Scotland,
Yes they have, becasue it was destined to fail...what once made us so wonderfull as a WORLDWIDE comminuty was our stark differences even between small distances (despite increased mobilty) The Laid-back Italiano 'mamma's cooking' big baby-boys, the swift and efficient deck chair claiming Germans, The unfetterd and dissmissive non-offencive French, Semi nude spear-throwing Aboriginee Africans and Yes even slightly pompous 'Of course we'll help out but we're still look down upon you for it' English bulldog spirit has all gone to wash...
Replaced by a repugnant and stale culture they call "Multiculturalism" infact, it has simply destroyed the individual cultures of each of it's victims, they'd call it "non-offencive" i call it cultural dilution.
When in Rome anyone?
Herowyn Beck, Wolverhampton,
Whats quite obvious to me is that western culture hasn't
liberalised certain groups, in fact they're reverting back to
their roots. We saw the result of that with the London
bombing's of late.
Multicuturalism...... before its time.....
There are lines on the map for a reason.
M walker, worcs, worcs
Edward from Leeds hit the nail on the head. More good has flowed from Great Britain, that has benefited more of mankind, than any other nation. If you don't realize it soon, that culture will be gone.
Stan, Portland, Oregon, USA
Are readers aware of problems caused in offices etc when someone of a lower caste is promoted above someone of a higher caste? It happens all the time in Britain, and causes problems left right and center to the running of British business, including civil service departments. If you live in Britain accept the British way of living. If an employee is better at the job, then they have the promotion. It has nothing to do with religion, colour, creed or caste. It's not done to offend, or not offend. Don't like it? Tough!
francis thomas, glamorgan,
Minette Marin's article is absolutely spot on. Multiculturism has clearly failed and is symptomatic of a society that has lost faith in itself, and what it is supposed to stand for. Get this: cultures are not equal. Is a culture that treats women as chattels, practices female circumcision and treats women as third-class citizens equal to one that is based on Judeo-Christian values, allows all its citizens to right to vote, to succeed through effort (regardless of what sex) and to express freedom of speech. Definitely, definitely not!! Try saying this on a diversity course or in front of an audience of the so-called liberal intelligentsia, and see how long before your freedom of speech is denied and you are subjected to howls of abuse. It is time for us to shout that the multiculturalist emperor has no clothes.
Mark Gollop, Poole, Dorset
There are certain countries whose cultural traditions offend me and so I will not go to live there. Conversely, should the Muslim workers in Sainsburys not have realised before moving to Britain that cetain habits of ours [e.g. drinking alcohol, eating pork, women and homosexuals being given equality] might not tie in with their religious beliefs? In which case, why did they still want to come here?
Dave Sommerville, Haverfordwest, Wales
are these muslims that don't want to sell alcohol in Sainsburys the same ones that don't mind their wages being paid by the profits that Sainsburys make on alcohol.i dont wish to sell burkas therefore i wouldnt apply for a job selling them so perhaps they should do the same . same goes for the medical students who dont want to treat the opposite sex,why should we train these people when they can be choosy.our NHS is in a bad enough state with the people we treat that come into this country and havent paid any national insurance contibutions they expect to be treated for free perhaps we should say as you havent paid you can die! there would be an outcry as we would be infringing on their human rights . Wake up Britain perhaps its time we were more choosy!
l burles, london, england
salman, if these people find things so offensive in britain why do they stay? they are not captive and no one is forcing them to work or study, surely moving to a less offensive part of the world would benefit both them and us. they would no longer have to be offended by western culture and we would no longer have to put up with their religious intolerence. a good solution i think.
danny, georgetown, carribean
What is happening to our country,this is britain,great britain ,if the the immigrants dont like our country go home,why should we have to change our culture,would they do it for us in they're country.i will not shop in sainsbury again.
john (scotland)
john mcintosh, glasgow, scotland
I wonder if I as a cathlolic could refuse to serve someone with a pack of condoms, or even meat on a friday?Don't think that would go down too well with my employers.
Janice, middlesbough , England
Pandering to cultures that practice uncivilized practices such as regarding women as inferior amongst a list of many more medieval and barbaric ones and which hate western cultures and democracy itself leaves one to conclude that the BBC is institutionally anti British (in the true sense). It is simply a haven for the liberal intelligentsia to practice their perverted ideology with breath taking arrogance. They together with other organisations with power are destroying what took Britain centuries to develop into an advanced freethinking and democratic nation with history to be immensely proud of.
Britain has become a country where appeasement is commonplace.
This country went through two world wars to keep its identity and freedom. Endless numbers made the ultimate sacrifice.
Now it is throwing it all away in the name of an extreme left political ideology, an ideology which demands brainwashing us into a perverse mind set void of reality and common sense.
Tony, Dunstable,
If you can't take the heat - get out of the kitchen.
JJ Adams, Garmisch Partenkirchen, Germany
I am so very tired...People who wish to uindertake training, or work should conform to the job description. Re Medical students, all who nede care should be treated, regardless of ethics, sinfullness, ethnicity, creed colour etc. All who refuse should be refused training! Likewise all who take work on at supermarkets should be obliged to fulfil their roles, If they do not then gross misconduct must be in order and a sacking ensue. These people have a choice to work or not. Please stop making British peoples lives a misery.
From a practical, sensible, saxon/welsh/scot/viking minority derived white pensioner with at least 10 generations efforts invested in this country!!
Lyn French, Lynsted, UK
Whether or not racism is alive live and well in Minette Marin there is no doubt that xenophobia flourishes. This article bares scant difference to the same type of screed spoken by another extremist of seventy odd years ago with the exception that cultural purity is now a substitute for racial purity and enlightenment is used as a red herring to mask fascism as kinder and gentler right wing extremism and gingoistic nationalism.
Mark S. Snyder, Boca Raton,, Florida
British culture is, for those in the dark:
Magna Carta
Habeas Corpus
The Enlightenment - The 18th century movement led by Newton, Lock and Pane which replaced superstition with scientific answers so that over the last 300 years we have gone from burning witches and torturing people to universal suffrage and gay rights (The Enlightenment never reached the Middle or Near East and they are back to killing witches in South Africa)
Popular music - 2nd only to the US//Literature//Sport - Football, rugby, cricket, golf - all made in Britain.//Invention and innovation - is there anything we didn't invent?//Tolerance, self-restraint, fairness and good manners.//Charity - only the US gives more.//Freedom of speech (under threat)//Democracy (except regarding immigration, law and order...In fact, no, forget democracy) Civil Liberties//CCTV//Careful driving/
Heavy drinking//Yobs//Humour
Easter, Halloween, Bonfire Night, Christmas
Culture is not a plate of fancy food and a silly dance.
Eugene, Chester, England
Abandoning Sainsbury is useless unless you tell them that you are and why.
John B, Craigavon,
Time for us all to wake up, the guests have taken over the free hotel!. Would they be so accomodating to us in their own countries?- I dont think so do you?.. ...as a nation we need to regain our national pride, which will in turn empower our youth to better things, and give us the confidence to say a resounding NO to other cheeky opportunists who must come here under the impression that we are all a little backward. And if the mainstream political parties cant promise to sort things out, vote for those who dont get the media attention (unless negative that is) who will.
Danny, Edinburgh, scotland
To : Andreas Andreou - In Japan you either assimilate or leave. Simple as that.
Japan's policy is much smarter then that - they dont give foreigners the chance to excercise the options of assimilation or integration. The Japanese government looks after the interest of the Japanese first, second and last, which is what they are elected for. As a consequence, Japan is at peace with itself.
Now compare this with the state of affairs in Britain, where our government for the last 10 years has been more concerned about the welfare of foreigners, then with the people whose culture and mores it was elected and paid, to serve and protect.
DaveP, Beverley, UK
Yes, political correctness is killing our culture.
How did it become so influential? Did it originate from the liberal intelligentsia as a means of forcing their perverted ideology on the rest of us?
They with position of power are destroying what took Britain centuries to develop into an advanced freethinking and democratic nation with history to be immensely proud of.
Arguing that all cultures are equal is like trying to convince us that the Earth is flat? How can you possibly equate a nation that indulges in medieval and barbaric practices with a civilized British democracy?
I really am concerned about the ludicrous consequences that are occurring on almost a daily basis in the name of Political Correctness. It is slowly but surely destroying our democratic culture. Something which Hitler failed to do.
Dr. Tony Yannakopoulos, Dunstable, UK
More PC facism pervading the elements of my profession and also the retail industry.I train medical students from Manchester Medical School.I have not come across the concept of selective witholding of treatments,but I will fail the first student who dares to transgress the Oath of Hippocrates,otherwise know as the Christian Oath of the 13th Century.This Religious bigotry has no place in medicine nor any other areas of Western Society.I will no longer spend my Western coin at Sainsbury's nor Boots.I will also discuss this with my peers to make certain that medical students of whatever religious denomination,attend to patients in a compassionate and non-prejudged way.
Dr.Iain Richard Ashworth MB.ChB, Barrowford, England
I wonder if a a Catholic member of staff Sainsburys would get away with refusing to serve a customer with a pack of condoms.
Janice, middlesbough , England
PUSH BACK!! Patriotic Brit’s should respond by:
1) Filling a trolley at Sainsbury
2) Select the no-alcohol Islam checkout
3) Leave the Vodka till last. When they refuse to serve you…
4) Exit in protest leaving all the items piled up at the checkout.
Sainsbury will soon learn
Susan Small, Lewes, Sussex.,
oh dear...I wish i wasnt born anglo-protestant. Not because i subscribe to the "loathe thyself "(if your white) preceptsof post modern thought. I But rather i find it too sickening to watch our leaders, intellects, and artisans throw us off the cliff and say how much we'll like the view. Yes, Barbarians are at the gate, my friend, but were told to call them guests.
Brett, Chicago, USA
In regards to the Sainsbury issue, if they keep us waiting in the queues for such a ridiculous issue, we as customers , should also walk out when this happens and leave without buying and paying. I can't wait to do it to prove my point and I encourage other sainsbury's customers to do it . No privileges should be given to anyone on religious grounds
maria, London, uk
If, whilst shopping in Sainsbury’s I refused to be served by Muslim staff, that would (rightly) be racism. Why therefore is it not also racism when Muslim staff refuse to serve me with the (perfectly legal) goods I want? As usual, double standards are being applied, which are alienating the silent majority. Eventually this is all going to end in tears.
Peter Myall, Bracknell, UK
Sainsbury's and all others like them should state on their employment application forms that handling alcohol, pork, shellfish and any other "prohibited" items may be part of their job requirements. The offer of employment should not be tailored to the beliefs of the potential employee but the applicant should be given the opportunity to decline the work conditions. In California certain items are "known to the state to cause cancer" and as such are publicly displayed - in addition to being forewarned, the option is given for the customer to decline purchase; so the option to be employed (or not) on the employer's terms should be provided. Those who can't handle alcohol and other similar goods should find a job elsewhere.
David Cunard, Los Angeles, USA
Hypocracy is so prevalent in Muslim states that I have lived in.
For over 20 years, I worked and travelled in predominantly muslim countries. I and so many of my fellow expatriates witnessed and know of the infinite number of cases of sexual abuse of Western and Asian women by muslim men.
We have enjoyed social evenings in the company of Saudi, Emirate, Kuwaiti and other Arab muslim locals, where drink and intimate friendship with various nationalities of women are present. I have known of the countless cases of gang rape of helpless Asian house maids, by Arab muslims.
John Smith, minnesota, USA
Things are no different in Canada. Our provincial politicians are the first to don all the symbolic clothes, headdresses etc. and turn out to the cultural parades and marvel at how 'multicultural' Canada is, what a paradise to live in, yet would not be seen dead in a Santa Claus outfit at a school nor wish 'Merry Christmas" to anyone in case they might be offended. If people wish to immigrate, then for goodness' sake, integrate. We did.
Jacqui, BC, Canada
J. MacGillivray, Vancouver, Canada
Then they are clearly not fit to be doctors. You cannot have picky doctors the same as you cannot rely on "plastic" policemen.
Ron, Bedford, U.K.
I wouldn't mind betting that at least some of these individuals who have made idiotic, politically correct decisions over the years (the headmistress, the council workers, the sainsburys store manager) are graduates of "Common Purpose" courses. Google it and see what you find
Karen, Brisbane, Australia
Here here, I'm racist too,
I'm British Born and Bred, and I love the British People and Britain above all else. Same as I love my kids above anybody elses. Its a natural human trait. So arrest me.
Adrian, Luton, Beds
Muslim supermarket employees ,trainee/qualified doctors and other medical staff etc., are not made to work under duress or gunpoint . They do so at their free-will and with presumably full knowlege of our culture,beliefs and way of life so must accept all this. If they do not the why are they here ?
Robin, worcester, UK
Again Minette is right it is not the EU, or the Human Rights law or even the gold-plating of those regulations by London Civil Servants but even worse the perception of what people think those laws and regulations say.
The Sainsburys managers have agreed to the demands of a handful of misguided employees because they fear they would be faced with a race discrimination claim if they did not, there is no way a claim could be successful for failure to carry out a core part of the role the staff were recruited for but the managers are so fearful of the Politically Correct police that they do not even raise the issue.
Where do people get the idea that they have to ban from noticeboards Christmas celebrations for fear of offending others. It is nonsese and needs to be challenged at every opportunity but id does not come from any law UK or European , but from a strange PC mindset
Dan, Oxford,
I wonder if a catholic member of staff could refuse to sell condoms
Janice, middlesbough , England
We should be proud of who/what we are and make a stand for OUR culture to be put first. It is our country, and people moved here because they believed it to be better than where they were - they didn't come expecting us to roll over, they came regardless, because we are a civilised country. We do not and should not be giving in like we are.
The British Empire was not created by being timid and giving in - it conquered by being strong and demanding respect!
Phil H, Middlesbrough,
For all the shouts of the death of multiculturalism, the fact remains that no one is prepared to offer a likely solution to the present problem. Integration is suggested as one policy - though how it is to be achieved is not mentioned. It goes without saying that people of other cultures are just as adamant in preserving their culture as we are.
A nation is based on a common culture and language. Thus a multicultural nation is a contradiction in terms. If this situation continues, then in the fullness of time, Britain will break up into monocultural nations, as we have seen demonstrated yet again in Yugoslavia and Cyprus.
The situation is urgent in the case of Islam in the West, as this is where the thrust of the Jihad is coming from, i.e., to forcibly or otherwise, bring an Infidel country under Islam.
Sadly, I feel there are really no humane alternatives other then a separation from Islam and Muslims, or I fear a civil war in Europe, that will be disastrous for all.
DaveP, Beverley, UK
It's true that other cultures may be "inferior" (hanging gay people and so forth). But from the standpoint of other cultures, we aren't that great either - crazily high divorce rate, teenage pregnancies, rampant alcoholism, the rape of the environment and so on.
Pot, kettle etc etc.
PRJ, London,
Respect the Host Culture
Trying to make a case for a need for respect towards the host culture by taking a pot-shot at racial and cultural correctness while using nonsensical cases of evidence the author is very unconvincing at her best and disingenuous at worst scenario.
One of the most striking traits of the British is the prevalence of common sense and the evidence served here being completely depraved of this quality, from my own experience, is hardly a commonality.
I sincerely believe that multiculturalism and integration are both sides of the same coin inasmuch that without being aware of the multi cultures in the UK and at the same time genuinely integrating those within the host culture you are failing to address the issue.
Respect is a powerful concept, which must be genuine to evoke mutuality. Both the host and the guest cultures must reach genuinely respectfully towards one another at ordinary people level, not just government for the host culture to command respect.
A Jegeni, Albanian and Britisher , Kidderminster, England
I'm so fed up with the political correctness and 'fear of offeding' that now predominates the UK that I really don't care any more who I offend..Muslim or otherwise. Try going to a Muslim country, even Dubai (yes a Westernised Muslim country where you can still get arrested for drinking water, smoking,eating or chewing in public during the day in ramadan!) and see how much leeway a Westerner is given when practising their faith..mmmmmm. Being offended is a subjective thing..some people will always get offended no matter what...you can't please all people. And I for one am not pussyfooting around.
Rob, London, UK
I'm unable to understand why everyone has their knickers in a knot over Muslim checkers getting someone else to put customers' alcohol through. Sure, it seems a little silly on the face of it, but at my local supermarket there are several checkers who are under 18, and who therefore have to ask another staff member to put alcohol through the register. Apparently checkers are legally considered to be 'in posession' of the alcohol when they scan it. Some sellers of alcohol (publicans, I think) are also legally liable if they sell drink to a customer who subsequently goes out and commits a crime while under the influence. So I guess I can see - just - where Muslim checkers would not want to be legally in posession of alcohol, nor risk of being legally responsible for what people do with it.
No sympathy here for the medical students who refuse to treat female patients, though. What kind of doctor refuses on principle to treat over half the world's population?
M, Durham,
Doesn't our multi-million-pound tourist industry and all the associated jobs - on which we are increasingly dependent - rely on British culture? Doesn't Britain still sell itself around the world on what we used to be, before multiculturalism and political correctness conspired to deprive us of any vestige of pride?
And I'd like to add that I'm certainly not afraid of giving offence.
Ellen Morris, Leeds,
To Nick in France, who typed: "When has the church ever been in the vanguard of the progressive agenda - never!"
Speaking only for my own country of the U.S. and giving only a few examples, I would say:
* when the Presbyterian church lead the way for a U.S. Constitution which enshrined the principles of individual liberty, including the liberty to have no religion;
* when the mainline churches in the northern parts of the U.S. fomented actively for the abolition of slavery;
* when the Baptist and AME churches in the southern parts of the U.S. lead the U.S. civil rights movement;
* when many mainline U.S. denominations (including our branch of the Church of England) led the public debate over acceptance of people who are homosexual, and leant their pulpits and sanctuaries to the discussion.
Taking pot-shots at religion just because some practice it poorly is about as smart as blasting particle physics because many high school teachers get it wrong. Cheap thrills...
David B, Charleston, S.C. USA
I would like to advise Sainsbury's that if I have any delay whatsoever at a checkout due to this ridiculous un-British policy, I will leave the checkout, leave my purchases, walk out, and do my shopping somewhere else. We all have that right, at least for now, and if large numbers take that line, Sainsbury's shareholders will very soon get the message.
Minette Marin is right about the basic fact - all cultures are not equal. What about the death by stoning handed down today in Iran? What about the ever-present threat to practising Christians in Saudi Arabia? Enough of this multi-culturalism. It depends on the indigenous population giving up its Judeo Christian culture. That is several steps way too far.
Tom, Bedfordshire,
I live exactly half way between a large Tesco and a large Sainsbury's. The Tesco's seems to be very 'multicultural' and seems to be staffed by whichever group has last arrived. Fortunately the Muslim's not selling alcohol nonsense hasn't reached my local Sainsbury's and I deliberately shop there as it employs a lot of British people, including many older people. I like the fact that the Sainsbury's staff are more polite, friendly and can enjoy a bit of banter using common British cultural references. I feel that this is NOT racist, but show that I place a value on supporting employment of British people and feeling some commonality when I go shopping. Institutions have cottoned on to this by advertising 'UK call centres'- clearly customers elsewhere are feeling much the same. There's nothing wrong with wanting the familiar- why else have we seen Asian and Chinese food shops open and Polish deli's appearing? Migrants want to feel the comforts of 'home'- why shouldn't people born here?
Dan, Oxford, England
Hmm... interesting topic. Personally I think Britain is far better as a multi-cultural and accepting society, but there does have to be a line where you can just accept no more.
I understand the need for muslims to want their rights to practice their religion but isn't there the saying: "My right to swing my arm ends where your nose begins"?
I will hopefully be studying Medicine in a couple of years and refusing to give treatment is just against all principles of becoming a doctor. Why treat some and not others?
Obviously, this is just one example and it does depend on the INDIVIDUAL how they decide to act.
Religion does come into it, but we can't just all gang up on the "muslims". People nowadays do tend to take the business of their "rights" too far, yet elsewhere others don't receive their basic rights.
As for changing school curriculum... let's stick to the facts shall we? Instead of teaching what we read from books written hundreds of years ago.
Zaveyna, Newcastle, UK
If I'm offended by Islam growing in power in this country, with examples like this. Does that mean I can down tools and refuse to live/work alongside them? Will somebody respect my right to do that? Or will i be branded a racist xeneophobic islamophobic criminal and locked up or fired from my job?
This article is right in it's suggestion that if you give minoritys an inch, they'll take a yard. In Islamic caliphates of the past, host religions other than Islam had a status called "Dhimmi" which meant they were under the protection of the state, but "KNEW THEIR PLACE" in the scheme of the host culture.
Their "rights" to influence the politics or any such thing were extremely limited or were non existent. At least they knew the score in that sense. But it is certainly our OWN people who are the main culprits in all of this, encouraging Muslims to whine about any old thing if it means they can get attention and special treatement. That is the worst thing of all, to me.
Alexn, South West, Britain
To Emma from Nottingham: Halal methods of slaughter are cruel & illegal- except that the government decided for some reason that it is OK to be cruel for cultural reasons! Slaughter without stunning should be illegal in all cases. Regarding your other point: statistically, people who do not eat meat (or indeed any animal products) at all are more likely to be healthy than those who do.
Margaret, Cambridge, England
10 daya ago my colleague objected to having to hear the three letter acronym PIG (Personal Interface to the Grid; used most profusely) during Ramadan.
Thiru, Oxford,
I know the cultural items are testy but I do wish the media would write about Halal meat, and also Kosher meat. In North America and Britain there have been problems with meat production and I wonder if these methods are not safer and healthier. And what's the reasonable healthy limit on eating meat anyway? Once a week? Less?
Emma H., Ottawa, Can
What host culture are you talking about? The UK has no culture because of its overzealous support for multiculturalism. As a result the native British have advocated their culture leaving immigrants the opportunity to impose their culture on the English.
Immigrants need to understand that they must respect and try to assimilate in the culture of the host country as much as possible without completely loosing or forgetting their culture of origin if they wish so.
Do you know what Japanese officials do after they leave the room of a pro-multicultural lecture? They laugh. Their country is homegeneous and as a result they have more wealth equality, minimal crime and few social unrest. In Japan you either assimilate or leave. Simple as that.
Andreas Andreou, Nottingham, UK
Hein Maasen,
Muslim students refused to attend courses on evolution ,don't forget that the minister of education wanted to introduce the theory of "Intelligent Design" to the curriculum or that a section of the reformed Protestant church refused to acknowledge or accept females in their political party. These ideas from enlightened western christians. By the way the reformed christians also still propagate the idea that homosexuality is an abhorence in the sight of God
I agree however with Martin of Heresford when he said"These people are paid to do the job, if they refuse to do so they should be fired!
"Lila Joseph, Weert,
The Sainsbury issue is simply ridiculous, it is a fine example of policitcal correctness that has gone too far, causing inconveniece to it's existing customers.
However, the idea of a doctor who has taken an oath, could lawfully reject to help a pateint of the opposite sex, or one who has a sexual disease etc... through justification on the grounds of religon. Has to be not only a disgrace to the medical profession, but to humanity.
SJ Davis, Wrexham,
Time to call a spade a spade.
This is not about CULTURE. Almost all the quoted examples in the article are about RELIGION. Culture encompasses a far wider and more interesting range of subjects, which on the whole don't cause offence to anyone.
Our domestic RELIGION is as batty and offensive as any other; it just doesn't happen to have such a strong hold on our CULTURE. If Christianity had the prominence that Islam has in most middle eastern states, we also would have oppressed women and persecuted homosexuals. When has the church ever been in the vanguard of the progressive agenda - never! Just look what the Religious Right would like to do in the US.
The answer is to take this to its logical conclusion and demand a secular state that safeguards people's freedom of worship, but grants beleivers no special priviliges or concessions. That includes shutting "faith" schools (whatever the league tables say) which just sharpen the existing divisions.
Nick, France,
What a breath of fresh air this article is.
Lucy, London,
are these muslims who don`t want to sell alcohol in sainsbury the same ones that don`t mind their wages being paid out of the profits that sainsbury make on alcohol ? is that not a case of double standards . I don`t want a job selling burka`s so i would`nt apply for a job where they are sold perhaps they should do the same. The same goes for the medical students that don`t want to treat the opposite sex why should we train them when they want to be choosy who they treat .Our nhs is in a bad enough state treating people who`ve come to this country without paying national insurance contributions perhaps we should try you have`nt paid so you can die ! There would be an outcry that we were enfringing their human rights
l burles, london, england
"salman" said: "For Muslims living in the West, the Sainsbury's test is a daily routine which they have to juggle with..."
If it's such a problem for Muslims I'd suggest they either change their ideology to something a little more sensible or--go and live somewhere that's compatible with their beliefs, rather than trying to change the HOST CULTURE.
Keith, Masterton, New Zealand
I can see it now at Sainsburys: Muslim checkout lights glowing while their non-muslim colleagues scurry around serving:
1. Wine, beer, spirits etc etc
2. Christmas pudding
3. Mouthwash
4. Cigarettes (also banned in Islam)
5. Pork (inc pork scratchings?)
6. Any non-Halal meat items
& perhaps Christmas cards, gay-interest magazines
As you can see the list is almost endless....
Life in the UK, ain't it grand!
D Hiscoke, Lincoln,
Replace 'liberal' diktats ('rights') and dictatorships (the BBC) with democratism, the rule of the democratic majority. Problem solved.
Terry, London, U.K.
Well done to Sainsbury's who showed a capacity far beyond the understanding of Minette Marrin who is unable to appreciate the simple fact that other cultures have distinct red lines that cannot be crossed.
For Muslims living in the West, the Sainsbury's test is a daily routine which they have to juggle with, whether it is the handling of alcohol, or the unrpofessional use of alcohol in the office which also poses a problem to a Muslim employee. And the issue doesn't just relate to alcohol, as some medical students have recently brought to public attention. The debate requires thinking and from both communities to bring about a harmonius relationship. Minette Marrin's contribution belongs to an past era
salman, london, uk
It's not whether we, as westerners, have higher or lower standards, whether we're better or not than other countries -those are only subjective issues. It's that we're British, and if you want to live in Britain, then damned well respect our society or go away. Integration s absolutley right - I've seen so much more of the same crap over here in the US.
Oh - and Sainsbury's need to get some balls or go away with them. As a customer, I would be mightily upset if I had to wait for another cashier to come running over becuase the one I happened to end up with was incapable of performing a basic function of their job. What kind of customer service is that?
Richard Stevenson, New York, USA
While, I am also against multiculturalism, and always have been, Ms. Marrin's statements on "inferior" cultures is unfair. Ill-treatment of women and homosexuals is not central to any culture; just as there are many Muslim men who mistreat women, there are many who do not and one does not have to look far to find a sexist male Christian. Rather, these are just prejudices that happen to be more prevalent in some parts of the world at this time, just as they were in the West at certain points; I mean... is it really that long ago that homosexuality was no longer considered a crime in the UK? I agree with the point of this article but not the method of reaching it.
Abioye A Oyetunji, London, UK
I wonder what would happen to me the next time I go to a hospital and refuse to be treated by a Muslim Doctor?
redjupiter, London,
I am struggling to think of a single shop owned by an immigrant from Pakistan or bangladesh that does not sell cigarettes or alcohol to anyone who had the money.
Would this person approach the problem differently if they were working in a family owned business that put food on the table?
I reckon we all know the answer to that.
R Evans, London,
What culture?
(you're right, things are insane, but people keep whining about British culture when so far I've failed to find any. Unless you mean soggy chips)
starling, Lancaster,
Well Sainsbury is going to be Arab owned soon, so a) will they stopping selling alcohol and pork derived products.
b) leave it as is as they won't be consuming the alcohol or pork derived products.
Kris, London,
Minette is 100% right. No wonder immigrants only come here for the benefits and freebies. They know we have no confidence in our own culture. I for one will no longer shop at sainsbury.
howard, london,
Well said Edward from Leeds.
Presh., i,
Minette Marrin's article is all very true but until the neck-lock of legislation which makes it a criminal offence for all public authorities (including all State schools, Councils, the BBC!) not to actively promote multi-culturalism is appealled then this tax-payer funded national suicide will continue. Any Government wishing to rescue the fair and decent society that we used to enjoy should also ask why so much university funding goes on the socially divisive and corrosive, so called, 'cultural studies' courses.
Frederick, Haslemere, Surrey
These people are paid to do this job. If they are unwilling to perform its functions in full then they should not have taken the job. Sainsbury's should not continue to employ them. They should be sacked. It is outrageous that they should be given special treatment. It really is time that we stood up to these people.
Martin, Hereford,
It is not a typically British problem. In my own country, the Netherlands, these things are happening too. Some years ago Muslim newspaper boys refused to deliver newspapers which had an image of a Quran on the front page. Muslim men are reported to forbid male doctors to treat their wives and daughters. Muslim students refuse to attend courses on evolution. Muslims are demanding room for prayer in public buildings. Christians never did these things. Will this sort itself out in time, or will it become worse? It certainly is a matter for concern.
Hein Maassen, Leidschendam, The Netherlands
It's stepping out of line. Isn't it wiser to wait until countries of their origin will at least a bit develop understanding for our culture? Meanwhile it is running in completly opposite direction. The more we give them freedom of beliefs and habits the less understanding we get in return. Encouraging eastern cultures to feel free makes them bold and provocative instead of appreciate it.
Andy, London,
simple remedy to the sainsburys nonsense , shop at tesco and tell the sainsburys manager why .what a bunch of prats.
e loughrey, westport, ireland
Western civilization, particularly the British variety, IS better than all the rest. Don't be ashamed to admit it. It's the truth. To hell with anyone who takes offense.
Edward, Leeds,