Following the national news can be bad for the blood pressure. According to a
press leak, the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) - Labour’s
favourite think tank and one which has the ear of power - is to publish a
report saying Christmas should be downgraded to improve race relations.
In the interests of “evenhandedness”, the report says, and “if we are going to
continue as a nation to mark Christmas - it would be very hard to expunge it
from our national life, even if we wanted to - then public organisations
should mark other religious festivals too”. Presumably that means marking
them equally, because “we can no longer define ourselves as a Christian
nation, nor an especially religious one”.
This all sounds familiar, of course. We have become used to absurd stories of
British Christmases being renamed Winterval, or children’s carols being
stopped for fear of offending minorities - many of them true. We all know
that the Christian Tony Blair and most top politicians send “season’s
greetings” instead of Christmas cards. It is unabashed, yet guilt-ridden,
decadent multiculturalism.
Sure enough, Ben Rogers and Rick Muir, the authors, do indeed call on the
government to launch an “urgent and upfront campaign” to promote “a
multicultural understanding of Britishness”. They rehearse the old
arguments: different communities should not be expected to integrate but
should be allowed to maintain their own cultures and identities; immigrants
should learn some English and something of British culture, “if - but only
if - the settled population is willing to open up national institutions and
practices to newcomers and give a more inclusive cast to national narratives
and symbols”.
Meanwhile, national ceremonies, civic oaths, parliament and the monarchy must
be recast in a more multi-religious or secular form. Parents should be made
to attend a public state ritual of citizenship for their new babies when
registering their birth; “parents, their friends and family and the state
[would] agree to work in partnership to support and bring up their child”.
Presumably this would include an undertaking not to celebrate Christmas
“inappropriately or exclusively”.
How the heart sinks. One can imagine a municipal babyfest, under a large
portrait of a grinning Gordon Brown, in which social workers stand in for
aunts and godparents and the parents swear to oaths they secretly resent; I
wonder what would happen to refuseniks. What I want, passionately, is for
the state to keep away from my children and let me decide for my family what
to do about Christmas (or indeed Eid or Sukkot or Diwali). I don’t want the
state interfering with ancient customs, expunging Christmas or punging
something else in its place. What I want is to escape the clutches of the
multiculturalist zealots.
I was beginning to think this country had recovered from its disastrous
obsession with multiculturalism. All kinds of race relations pundits have
recently changed their minds about multiculturalism and come to realise that
an insistence on difference weakens the ties that bind a diverse society. It
isolates people and makes them less willing to cooperate with - or pay
benefits for - people they perceive as aggressively other. These new
revisionists have finally understood that it was dangerous for the host
culture to feel belittled and exploited by multiculturalist supremacists.
Trevor Phillips, head of the new equality quango, famously said that we were
sleepwalking to apartheid. Even Brown keeps trying to manipulate our shared
Britishness, if only in his own political interest. However, the tired old
donkey of multiculturalism refuses to lie down and die. This irrepressible
ass is still alive, in the person of the IPPR, and kicking the government.
The question is, why?
One of the answers must lie in confusion - in the confusion most of us seem to
feel about religion, culture, human rights and respect. There are a lot of
internal contradictions and confusions in that list; the liberal western
point of view, as expressed by Cherie Blair in her Chatham House lecture
last week, is riven with contradiction. She appeared to be making the
courageous point that religion and culture should not be used as excuses for
denying people - that is, women - their universal human right to equality.
I feel that just as strongly as she feels it. Religions and cultures that deny
women basic equality, or exploit and abuse them, are, as far as I am
concerned, a bad thing. I don’t feel the slightest obligation to respect
them or to allow them to bring their practices into this country. However,
the problem for Cherie Blair, not least during the visit here of King
Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, is that in the western liberal agenda we are
supposed to offer equal respect and equal rights to all cultures and all
religions, and to people’s universal right to live according to them and to
practise their faiths as they understand them. But you simply can’t. You can
either have universal human rights, or you can have the universal human
right to ignore them for cultural or religious reasons - not both.
If a culture or a religion does not share Cherie Blair’s absolute belief in
universal human rights, then how can she respect it? And, for that matter,
why should she expect them to respect her opposing beliefs? She spoke on
Radio 4 of honouring people’s religious beliefs, when freely adopted, but
why? Incidentally, as for Islam being freely adopted, a large proportion of
young British Muslims think that the penalty for abandoning the faith should
be death. There is not a great deal of freedom in Islam which, after all,
means submission.
My point is not particularly to criticise Islam. It is rather to criticise
this long-standing liberal article of faith that all religions are equal,
equally deserving of respect, and believers should be equally free to
practise them. In truth, nobody believes that - whether Muslim, gentile,
Hindu, Jew, wiccan or heathen. Nor in terms of Christian and post-Christian
British culture is it true. We have been misled culturally by trying to
pretend it is true and we have damaged our society in the process. The IPPR
and Christmas deniers are still being misled and are trying to mislead the
rest of us. “Bah, humbug!” as Scrooge would have said.
Sure..secular..You will find that funny when you are bowing on a mat 5 times a day praying to mecca!! Christians do not hurt anyone..leaves us alone. by the way I live in America, the USA. At least we are trying to do soemthing about all this.
b, b, b
"Secularism is a world-view that is no more value free than any religious conviction. It is, in its own way, another 'religion'."
- If atheism is a religion then not-collecting-stamps is a hobby
Carl Defoe, Jarrow, England UK
The French got it right years ago by separating out the state from religion, period. Nothing religious is allowed in the public domain like education or their civil service and in spite of attempts by their own Muslims to twist the laws for purely selfish reasons, they have been firmly stopped by the state on the other side of the channel. As a result, in France everyone knows where they stand unlike the wishy washy Labour governments position in Great Britain. The quite correct response in France is if Muslims don't like 'Rome' they can bugger off to an Islamic state and enjoy their pervasive religion without forcing on the rest of the country. Britain needs to do exactly the same to take back their country from the extremists & liberals but I fear it will take direct action from the populace to achieve this whilst New Labour pontificates.
Mike, Alicante, Spain
Keith Pyne: "Because immigrants have chosen to come to these shores, I repeat "CHOSEN", then wither they like it or not Christianity is the faith of their chosen Country and they should accept that fact."
What about people, like me, who have been born here? I don't accept that fact and I have a single vote just like you. The UK might have some Christian anachronisms in its legislature and institutions but they hardly make this a Christian country. In fact, I think it's about time we got rid of those quirks and become constitutionally secular. Will you accept that if it becomes fact through a democratic vote?
David Jones, Loughborough, UK
Faith should be between man and god and the state should keep out of it.
S. Singh, Leeds, England
The British People need to reclaim their country, it belongs to them, not to Paliament. It belongs to their children, Bought and Paid for with the Blood of their Ancestors.
Adrian Peirson, luton, Britain Beds
It is so refreshing to hear someone say what Minette is saying in this column. For too long we have put up with post modern twaddle such as 'all paths lead to God' 'all faiths are equal' not to mention 'if it feels right to you - do it'!
To hear someone talk about faith based on reason is a breath of fresh air. Of course all religions aren't the same. But we can talk to each other.
Bill, Yeovil, UK
Faith, in any form, be it atheist, agnostic, or religious, lies in the realm of belief. It is therefore, mostly, a private matter; a matter of opinion that civilised societies may discuss, argue and agree to differ. Where it becomes public is in the realm of civic institutions that embody religious beliefs. This country remains Christian in that sense. One good thing about that is this tie to Christianity in our ceremonial institutions of Parliament and Monarchy is we, as a Nation, affirm aspects of a particular religion we all consent to - duty, honour, respect, truth, justice - universal human values. It is time to say to all religions of peculiar fundamentalist belief, including radical atheism - go practise your faith in private and know your place! Religious Education can do much to improve the situation in the UK and RE teachers are probably far better placed than the IPPR to advise the government on such matters.
Julie Ann Hilton, George Town, Cayman Islands
I am a retired teacher of English. I was in England first in 1965 and then it was - more or less - a Christian country. Since then I have seen the humiliation and the weakening of this nation. As a Hungarian I can tell we have regarded England as a great nation worth following. Now I have serious doubts. Liberalism has created multiculturalism and globalism which leads to the annihilation of small nations. It is very sad that even great nations are unable to withstand this new terror of "freedom'.
Peter Szentmihalyi Szabo, Chairman of Christian Europe Party
Peter S. Szabo, Budapest, Hungary
NO!NO!NO!
This is and has been since before Henry VIII a Christian country not Hindu not Muslim not Buddhist or agnostic but CHRISTIAN.
Because immigrants have chosen to come to these shores, I repeat "CHOSEN", then wither they like it or not Christianity is the faith of their chosen Country and they should accept that fact.
In this country we do not beat, stone or behead them for not being of the faith of this Country, we let them follow their faith in peace and understanding without persecution.
So until they become the majority let the Status Quo.
Yes I am a Christian and I sleep very well.
Keith Pyne, Loughborough, England
To Michael, Manchester. Did you actually read the comments you replied to? I doubt it.
1) No, I do not regard atheism as a sort of quasi-religion. The point is that I find all religions offensive. If all people, not just religious people,are to be treated as equals, then this view should be considered just as much as, say, a muslim objecting to an image of Christ;
2) I KNOW that the majority of people are fundamentalist christians. The point is, if (note the word "if" this time) they has sufficient power they would suppress those who don't share their views. This also holds true of muslims, of course. It is their lack of power, NOT any sense of tolerance, that prevents them from persecuting the rest of us.
3) You call me a "sad, sad" man. No, mate. I'll tell you what, though: I could launch a personal attack on you too. However,
being godless, I do not possess sufficient hatred of my fellow man to enable me too.
David Warren, Eastbourne, England
"Would secularists please show some integrity and stop pretending that secularism is value free. Secularism is a world-view that is no more value free than any religious conviction. It is, in its own way, another 'religion'."
Sure - we support freedom of speech, freedom of thinking, democratic non theocratic politics, equality for women, sexual freedom, and the power of clear thinking advance unconstrained by any belief system. Enough "integrity" for you? - and no one is shy about this.
Though that is not a "religion". Suggesting it is is just playground arguing: it is OPPOSED to religion and the ignorance on which the latter rests.
Joe, Manchester,
Minette needs to be careful what she wishes for. Many of the things that she takes for granted are multi-cutural.
Hollywood movies (US). Fish & chips (Italian). Takeaways from all nationalities, including pizza (Italian again).
Our system of mathematics, which is a Hindi form of the original Arabic numerals, replacing the archaic Roman numerals.
And above all, the English language, which has absorbed words from all over the world.
If we took away all of our multiculturalism, we would eat nothing but mutton, washed down with weak barley beer, whilst jabbering away in some dialect of Celtic.
In response to Ruxana; Christianty guarantees full equality for women, even though they never got it in practice.
Francis King, Bath, UK
Of course all religions are equal - equally dumb; they are the refuge of the mentally unstable and the insecure. But for historical reasons we have our Anglicanism, which is more moderate and civilised than most religions, and we can tolerate it until it withers away. We certainly shouldn't go acknowledging further fantasies.
John Ledbury, Kings Lynn, England
It's all subjective superstitious rubbish...
Only when mankind can follow a logic, not blind faith, will this rubbish be finished.
The intellectual of sound free mind MUST reject religion and everything it stands for.
F. Graham, London,
I just cannot agree with this report.
I work as a contractor, and as a result see a lot of different people of varying ethnicity and faith, including Muslims. And all of them enjoy the local festivals, even if they do not celebrate them.
The only place I have ever witnessed this politically correct de-emphasisation of Christmas or Easter is within the papers. In reality everyone I have ever met, of whatever faith doesn't care.
Max, MK, UK
If different faiths have no problem with Christmas - as shown by some submissions here - why on earth should we? Or are the IPPR athiests, in which case why do they think they have the right to deny anyone's faith?
James, Glasgow,
All faiths are equal only in their ignorance
Jonathan, Newton Abbot, Devon
Yes we should celebrate the festivals of other faiths.
All muslim women will wear Father Christmas hats and their men folk will attach white cotton wool beards over their chins.
get drunk and accost the women of other faiths with sprigs of mistletoe.
Hindu's will play tapes of Carols at high volume and rattle tins of money under our noses in the High street and dress up as Santa's little helpers..
Jewish groups will wrap legs of pork and saucages into gaily coloured parcels to put under the tree.
Others of a non Christian persuasiom will be rounded up and forced into stuffy church halls to spend three hours singing carols.
We Christians for our part will buy all participants expensive useless presents from Harrods.
Finally, the United States will in a gesture of good will, bombard (bybalistic missiles) the Third world, with Christmas. puddings..
We can then sit back complacently and say "God Bless us....every one.".
gordon brown, Lancing. W.Sussex,
Would secularists please show some integrity and stop pretending that secularism is value free. Secularism is a world-view that is no more value free than any religious conviction. It is, in its own way, another 'religion'.
Norman Hamilton, Belfast,
The dictionary definition of faith is "belief without proof" ... To think that over the centuries humanity has swallowed hook, line and sinker the assorted concoctions of myths, legends, fairy stories, superstitions and a fear of the unknown, which constitute religions of all sorts, is pretty breathtaking. It just shows how easy it is to become brainwashed. The most appalling aspect is that religious fanatics then go around murdering others who don't share their preposterous belief in the unprovable. Far from there being "faith schools", such places should be abolished as the kids will only grow up inheriting their teachers' and parents' vicious intolerances.
K Philips, London, UK
Minette Marrin says: “Religions and cultures that deny women basic equality, or exploit and abuse them, are, as far as I am concerned, a bad thing.â€
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" (1 Cor 14:34-35).
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim 2:11-14).
"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days . . . But if she bare a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks" (Lev 12:1-5).
Peteran, London,
Christianity hijacked the old pagan seasonal celebrations of the winter solstice and also Easter. Just take out the religious
references and we can celebrate as we always did.
M Wilkinson, London,
I am a teacher living in France, a country with a long and powerful secular tradition rooted in law. As you may know, the wearing of conspicuous religious signs in state institutions such as schools is forbidden here. As a teacher, I can refuse admission to my classes of girls wearing the muslim veil for example, and I will be supported by the authorities. Nicolas Sarkozy, when Minister of the Interior, founded the Conseil français du Culte Musulman, an elected body which represents muslim interests in France. Recently, in a speech to them, he repeated publicly and firmly that any form of violent or racist preaching by foreign imams will result in expulsion.
The message is clear. France is a secular country, and is governed by the rules of the Republic, not by religious groups, be they christian or muslim. At least everyone knows where they stand. And we haven't had any terrorist attacks here by muslims since 1995. Perhaps we could take a leaf out of France's book?
Stephen Yates, Nantes, France
Whats wrong in calling Christmas - Yuletide as many people still do, and celebrate the return of longer hours of daylight? This has to be a source of cheer for many of us and often people play next years` summer holidays.
This would not prevent Christians or other religions following their own beliefs.
Keith Beddoe, Southampton, UK
Christmas: generally a nice, happy time.
Ramadan: in the central Muslim area of Manchester, police line the streets at Eid.
Go figure. That's characteristic of the entire history of Islam.
Jesus: slightly wimpy but nice fella who healed the sick.
Buddha: chilled out dude teaching people how to chill out.
Mohammed: supremacist war lord.
Go figure.
Joe, Manchester,
I would agree. There is not a great amount of freedom in Islam, and niether is there in Christianity, or Judaism. In fact if we were to really engage our brains, freedom is a complete illusion, unless you think being able to buy a burger when you want is freedom. Wake up planet. Freedom is about complete transparency. We don't have any transparency just as we don't have Democracy. We live in a Corpratocricy, where never ending war is preferable to peace. We don't have education, we have indoctrination. What we have is an Orwellian world governed by the puppets for the few ruling elite over the many. Wake up!
Ian, London,
John in Birmingham, what on earth is unbelief? Is that a word?
Steve, Salisbury,
Great piece. It is so clearly a matter common sense, what could be the objection? I would add that my best friend in college was a Wiccan, and she often said she didn't care if the nation acknowledged her religion or not - what difference does it make if there is one officially regonized religion? Who cares??
Lizzie, Brooklyn, NY
To simply kill anyone who chooses to follow a religion other than Islam is against the fundamental teachings of the Koran. Freedom of conscience is a fundamental principle of the Qur’an that is clearly stated in many of its verses. I list just a few:
There is no compulsion in religion. (Koran 2:256)
‘Now the truth has come from your Lord: Let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so’. (Koran 17:29).
and thou (Mohammed) art not one to overawe them by force. (Koran 50:45)
But if ye turn away, then know that the duty of Our messenger is only plain conveyance (of the message). Koran (5:92)
The is no punishment at all for apostasy in the Koran. Neither is their any punishment worthy of stoning. If you dont believe me, see for yourself.
Bazza, Manchester,
Dominic Stockford- I'm afraid you're grossly misinformed about the Sikh attitude to the 'true path'. Sikhism is in fact a risky religion for believers because it actually tells them they will get no extra 'divine protection' for belonging to the faith. 'All are doors to salvation' including atheism. Sikhism developed in a time of horrendous religious persecution and struggles between Islam and Hinduism, hence the inherent repulsion of the 'one true path' ethos.
Back to this article. I'm sick of a plethora of suits second-guessing sentiments which just don't exist. Just who exactly is complaining about Christmas celebrations? I certainly have not and never will- it's just one aspect I love in what is *my* country. I don't have to be Christian to appreciate it.
The irony is overbearing. I suppose such suggestions pertain to ease intercultural relations, but in reality these attacks on the native culture will destroy any hopes for that. We will never pull together if there's no trust.
A Kaur, West Midlands,
The answer is in front of your noses. Secular democracy, strictly enforced by the letter of the law, is the only form of governance that is stable, equitable, and just.
Until the UK disestablishes the Church and declares a permanent and absolute secular order, it cannot claim that all citizens are equal in the eyes of the state. Everything else is details.
Victor Purinton, Cambridge MA, USA
How come those who believe in an all powerful supreme being - from whatever particular religious perspective - seem always to be the ones calling for more legal and social protection? If your god really is as you say he is then you hardly need protecting, especially not from atheists who, obviously, have no supreme being on their team.
Clint, Staffordshire, UK
David Warren, Eastbourne, England: what you are effectively saying could be paraphrased as: "i have no special dietary requirements, and nor do many or most people, so why should i have to put up with warnings about products containing peanuts, for example?"
The absence of a belief system in a person's life is not to be treated in the same way as having one, unless you really do belive that atheism is some form of proxy-religion....in which case you are a sad, sad man. Atheists are not treated in the same way as the religious for a reason: they (normally) do not wish to be - thats kindof the entire point.
By saying "why should i have any respect for other people's sytems of belief?" you are surely negating the one core argument that you chaps (athiests) have against religion, which is that it is bad because it promotes intolerance, are you not? Also, what kind of a statement is: "If the majority of people in this country were fundamentalist Christians [etc].."? They arent!
Michael, Manchester,
The crux of this matter lies in the fact that the political left in Europe is more and more dependent on the vote of the muslim communities.
Elias, Zaragoza, Spain
Colin Nicholas from Canada, how right you are. Weird religious superstitions should have no place in any developed society.
cath, london, uk
We're not Christians and we celebrate christmas (except we don't go to church) which is the same as the Christian in name only population of this country.
We don't expect people to participate in Diwali, but if they want they can at the end of the day Diwali has the same meaning as Christmas these days fun, food and drink.
Have a Good whatever you want and enjoy your life don't listen to all the stirrers of Minettes ilk, no one wants to ban Christmas really it makes too much money for big corporations.
Kris, London,
I am an atheist. Not only do I not have belief in any sort of god, I have no respect for the beliefs of those who do. Why should I? If the majority of people in this country were fundamentalist Christians, say, or muslims, would they leave me alone to live as I do? Of course not. So in no way will I find their religions anything but thoroughly objectionable.
But, if we are going to have equality, let us have equality, not this situation where atheists are never considered in the first place, Christians are supposed to tone down their celebrations yet muslims are left to just carry on as they wish. It is wrong. Since muslims frequently object to, say, images of Christ, or references to Christ, maybe Christians should object to features of Islam. Why not, since we are supposed to be equal?
Ramadan, Eid or festivals of other religions, eg the Hindu festival Diwali, should be as open to objection as Christmas (which I, as an unbeliever, do not observe). So, can we ban them, please?
David Warren, Eastbourne, England
This is nothing new in this. As Michael Burleigh describes in his two books 'Earthly Powers' and 'Sacred Causes', secular & atheist states in Europe (& elsewhere - eg. Mexico) have been trying to abolish or subjugate Christianity since at least the time of the French Revolution. Our present secular state is just carrying on an old tradition.
Dave, Wrexham,
Minette Marrin is incorrect when she claims that not all religions are equal. They are all equally ludicrous.
Russ, Reading, UK
To the question "there is no freedom in Islam?"
Freedom is a privilege and not a right. An individual's rights can only be upheld under the governing laws. In the case of Islam the law is given by God’s divinity and forms the boundaries of our perceived rights.
Islam offers freedom to those that respect the divine laws of God or that which is earthly. Those who chooses to stay outside these walls of understanding are deemed to be without divinity and therefore without rights to the rule of law.
It isn't sufficient to abstain from the rule of law whilst expecting to be protected by that which one has shunted, the ruling law.
Michael Reid, Oxford, England
Surely to down-grade Christmas would be anti-Christian? I'm fairly sure it's possible to be prejudiced against Christians, just as it's possible to be prejudiced against any other faith.
Can't politicians stop messing with faiths, and accept that if it's not actively harming other people then the fact that some people won't agree with it isn't necessarily a good reason why it shouldn't happen at all.
Meg, Pembs,
I would suggest that Cherie be excommunicated from the Catholic Church for her anti-Christian views. That is what they really are. It is becoming a matter of "with us or against us". And I would suggest it should be done before her husband moves across, so the embarrassment for Rome is reduced!
Tom, Bedfordshire,
The Institute for Public Policy Research is irrelevant and out of touch. My Muslim colleagues all gave me Christmas cards last year. And I was happy not to scoff crisps at my desk while they were fasting for Ramadan. We don't need the state telling us how to integrate. Respect and common sense mean most of us rub along just fine.
Stella, Salford, UK
Speaking as a Christian can I just say that if I believed half of the words constantly put into the mouths of 'Christians' by non-Christians here (including the atheists, agnostics, Muslims and others) then I wouldn't be a Christian either. But I don't believe what you accuse me of believing and refuse to feel the slightest shame in being a Christian. Maybe it's time a few folks round here starting actually finding out what really being a Christian means for themselves (e.g., read the New Testament, look at what Christ actually said) rather than assuming that just because someone claims to be a Christian their actions are therefore Christianity in action.
E Burgess, Slough,
Minette Marin & Rassendyll from Cambridge are quite right, religions are not equal - those of us Christians who actually believe what the Bible says do hold that salvation is to be found in Christ alone. Just as true Muslims, Catholics, Hindus and Sikhs believe that their religion is also the only way to eternal salvation.
One key difference between the groups is the attitude held towards others beliefs - convert or destroy. True Christians seek to convert, and then weep for those who won't. Look to India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka for examples of the way other faiths react if people 'won't convert'.
Dominic Stockford, Teddington, England
Your article was spot on, Minette. Why are we putting up with all this nonsense coming again and again from the 'liberal' intelligentsia? It is ironic that the politically correct inclusivity agenda does not seem to apply to Christians - committed or nominal - or to what may be regarded as Christian festivals.
While they want to downgrade or erase Christmas and use meaningless terminology such as winterval, we are being told that we must celebrate other festivals such as dear to Muslims and Hindus in the name of multiculturalism. We have just be told that our daughter's class is to have a Divali day. I should have a right to withdraw her and may well do. It is one thing to learn about the tenets of other faiths. It is another to require that we and our children should participate in them, regardless of our own deeply help beliefs. As for the IPPR demanding we make public pledges, this sounds like the slippery slope to Stalin, Mao and Hitler. I would go to prison rather than do that.
Mark Gollop, POOLE, Dorset
Never mind the new revisionists, if it weren't for the OLD revisionists we wouldn't be celebrating Christmas anyway. We'd be celebrating the Winter Solstice, a natural phenomenon, had it not been hijacked for a Christian festival.
Brian Jordan, Huddersfield,
I can imagine a world in the future where gods are seen as relics of our weird religious past.We are not yet quite ready,but getting there,especially since the religious insanity of September 11,2001,which no doubt prompted atheists to come out of the closet and add their voices to the current conversation on the relevance of religion.
Those of us who overcame, or avoided,religious indoctrination,are no longer comfortable being silent on this issue,which is the biggest issue of our time.
The supernatural world is the world of our imagination.We have to understand that our imaginings have nothing to do with reality.
The future of our civilization may depend on it.
Colin Nicholas, Kelowna BC, Canada
Minette, you're spot on as usual. What is happening here is a creeping cultural suicide, which if not stemmed, will lead to the destruction of what we have come to accept as normal. It is time we stopped playing into Muslim philosophy which says, if you're not Muslim you're infidel and deserving being exterminated. This is what I believe to be the concerted effort of Islam to defeat Christianity and all things western.
Charles Lewin, Helsinki,
I am a practising Aztec wgose ancestors crossed the Stlantic in stone boats. I am going to the European Court to enforce my right to hold large scale human sacrifice whenever my religion demands it - a basic right currently denied me by fascist and intolerant policemen - and I bet I win.
More seriously, Christ said that I am the Way the Truth and the Life. No man comeh unto the Father but through me, so how can Christians have the slightest respect for any other religion or regard as anything but a ine-way ticket to damnation?
Rassendyll, Cambridge,
I am not religious, and never have been, yet I celebrate Christmas as a traditional end of year holiday, a much-needed festive period in the dark days of winter. Christmas Day and Boxing Day are public holidays. The logic of the multicultural argument is that there should be similar holidays for traditional festivals of other cultures that have taken up residence in this country. Is this practicable, or desirable in any way, given the needs of employers and the necessity of affirming "Britishness" (per Gordon Brown)? I think that we should stick to our guns, and say that we will maintain our traditions. If others want to celebrate their own festivals, fine, but no-one else should be expected to pay for it, and time off should be taken from annual leave.
Cathy , Bristol, uk
The problem is that multi-culturalism is becoming a religion in the worst sense of the word - if you do not agree, you get hauled up before the authorities (Inquisition?) and made to see the error of your ways. As ever, it is control of ordinary people's lives by those that are sufficiently comfortable to have nothing to do but interfere.
Sara, Span,
Christianity does NOT teach respect for other faiths with its insistence on the One True Way and non believers not 'seeing the light' and being damned forever. It is BECAUSE you cannot respect others that you constantly have this debate. Yet you are happy to get into bed with nations that abuse and torture others and turn a blind eye to inhumane treatment - presumably because their wealth and usefulness as a nation is more important. Even as far back as Roman times, the Anglo Saxons were described as the laziest nation in the Empire - you have for decades been reliant on a migrant workforce to do your menial work and yet you continue to have this hate, hate relationship with those that are different. At the heart of this is your hatred for difference not your respect. You don't have to believe in other religions - just respect them - there are many paths to God and Christianity is just one of those but not, as it likes to believe and preach, the ONLY true path.
katie, midlands, uk
Judaism, in fact, believes that all religions are paths to the Divine. It is considered a sign of ignorance to ridicule other people's religious practices. One of the first points made in the Jewish bible is that all people are made in the divine image. All demand respect. The metaphorical point about Adam and Eve is the idea that we are all one human family, descendents of the same parents. Isiah's universalistic dream of peace between peoples is the apotheosis of this. Tollerance is the vital message of Judaism - and in time I hope of all beliefs.
Nick, Edgware,
Just a quick point for clarification, one of the meanings of the Arabic word 'Islam' is submission, but that submission is to God Almighty on His terms, not to the whims and ever-changing laws of man. Also, Islam is being freely adopted by hundreds in the UK, Europe and throughout the world. This phenomenon is not instigated by blood-thirsty Arabs, brandishing swords and forcing conversions. Rather, when people get past, the waves of misconceptions, distortions, propaganda and lies, they find the truth about Islam and are free to make their own decision to follow or not.
Also, Minette's comment on there not being a great deal of freedom in Islam. That depends on your definition of 'freedom'. The Western governments for example, have recently given a dose of 'freedom' to the people of Iraq. Thousands of innocents have been incarcerated by Western governments without trial or due course in the name of 'freedom'. What brand of 'freedom' is Minette referring to?
Kashif, Birmingham,
I find it hard to believe that most immigrants want Britain to bend over backwards to change to accommodate the cultures of the countries they came from. Isn't this IPPR report more a reflection of the views of craven, guilt-ridden, England-hating leftie think tank people?
Surely if you move to another country (for whatever reason) you can appreciate that country's traditions, even if (for instance in the case of religious festivals) you don't actively participate?
I live in Sweden, a country that has plenty of its own, strongly rooted traditions such as midsummer celebrations, St.Lucy's Day celebrations etc.
While I might pine occasionally for English and British traditions (and could attend the English church sometimes if I wanted), I hardly feel discriminated against because they don't have a parade on the Queen's Birthday. I live in Sweden, and here it's Swedish traditions that count.
Jason, Stockholm, Sweden
Ruxana, please preach to the Wahabbis, Taleban and the rest who punish apostates that there is no compulsion in Islam. Will you support the former Muslims in their freedom to choose their own beliefs?
Politically correct bigots use multiculturalism to build ghettos so that people cannot interact or socialise freely. They also belittle minorities by granting the people the blessed state of victimhood i.e it is always someone's fault ( preferably the majority) that they are poor etc.
Labour's new think tank is talking nonsense because it is the fault of the politcally correct bigots who are causing the problems by promoting victimhood based on race, gender,sexuality and disability instead of fairness and equality.
Carolyn, Surbiton,
Just to clarify Minette.
Islam means 'submission', yes, but submission to God Almighty, not to the ever-changing whims and desires of man.
Also, for Minette's information, Islam is indeed being freely adopted (especially by women) in the US, UK, Europe and throughout the world. No blood-thirsty Arabs brandishing swords forcing conversion. These are the people who look beyond the lies, misconceptions, propaganda and make the decision to follow of their own free will.
Finally, Minette's comment on 'not a great deal of freedom in Islam'. Well, that depends on your definition of 'freedom'. Western governments have given a dose of 'freedom' to the people of Iraq, with disastrous results. Western governments have incarcerated tens of thousands of people without trial or due course in the name of 'freedom'. What brand of 'freedom' is she referring to?
Kashif, Birmingham, UK
I am constantly amused by the followers of, as far as I can tell, every Religion who say our Religion says you MUST do this thing and then do the opposite in their lives. Lets just consider the top two.
Christian hypocrisy is legendary. It now has over 34,000 branches all claiming there is the one true route to God. Based upon a book put together by a committee.
It says in the Koran that if you leave your religion you will be tortured and if you do not repent be killed. That way the religious leaders don't have to answer impossible questions. And for Ruxana to say Islam does not deny women any rights that is true, as long as you want the right to walk around with a bag on your head. It also says in court that two women witnesses are needed when only one man is necessary. Very equitable. Given the way Islam MAKES men socialise together to the exclusion of women no wonder women are treated like a different life form. One could think it was like being in a gay club.
Bill Green, Birmingham, UK
I would also like to know which Eid she is talking about? I know of four.
Jennifer Hynes, Plymouth, England
The State should keep out of religion.
All religions, from the devout and sincere to the daft and political, have nothing to do with the way in which a country should be run.
To move forward, the State must be secular, dealing - as it does - with banks, bombs and buildings - health, education and transport; mostly badly. The skirts of assorted religions are a poor cover for rotten, undemocratic government.
Morality is the only point of contact which any State needs with religion; and morality is perfectly possible - and desirable - without any religion.
All the current political correctness about religion is insulting to those people - the majority - who live in Britain, and profess no religion.
We don't need Prime Ministers and their cohorts on their knees, but - for a change - looking after our interests and making the country run well; without the current very high levels of lies, concealment and waste.
Let's re-cycle civil servants and politicians.
Charlotte Peters Rock, Knutsford, England
Death for Apostacy - It is not specific within the Koran, but Muhammed did make executions, it is also still a threat within some Muslim states, although 're-training' can also be pescribed instead.
Muslim 623 The Prophet said: "It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim except in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life (if the person is Muslim), and the deserter of Islam."
Bukhari 9:89:271 A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism Mu'adh said: "I will not sit down unless you kill him as it is the verdict of Allah and His Apostle"
Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don?t punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"
Can a 'faith' be a faith if the punishment for choosing to not believe is death?
chris, Manchester, UK
Quote 1:
Presumably that means marking them equally, because “we can no longer define ourselves as a Christian nation, nor an especially religious oneâ€.
Quote 2:
What I want, passionately, is for the state to keep away from my children and let me decide for my family what to do about Christmas (or indeed Eid or Sukkot or Diwali).
So does that mean the state should mark them all equally, give priority to one of them, or ignore them all - I'm not sure.
Rob, Swindon,
Thanks God, we live in secular state.Therefore religion hasn't any voice in social and political issues. Then we live in Europe. It means that we have a majority nation (British, German, French etc). Giving minority cultures equal rights with majority culture is self-destructive, it erodes our integrity, weakens ties binding our society. Finally we must notice that it is Islam that undermines our values, not Judaism or Hinduism. Muslims obey Sharia law and for many of them their devotion to religion means more than being a member of British society. And now it is Muslims who commit suicide simultaneously killing innocent women and children because these women and children are thought as satanic nonbelievers by Muslims. And this makes the difference.
Ilya, St. Petersburg,
"Let there be no compulsion in religion" Sura 2.256 was ABROGATED (along with over 120 other verses in the Koran) by the Sword Verses (Suras 8 and 9) which call for violent warfare, forced conversion, subjugation or death of all non-Moslems. "Whoever changed his islamic religion, then kill him" (Muhammed, Hadith Bukhari 9.88.6922). ALL Moslems know this fact and it is time that columnists, wives of politicians, and the English public knew it. Mrs Blair actually said the Koran does not call for beating wives. It most certainly DOES: Koran 4.34 "As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, AND SCOURGE THEM." (ALL the eleven major authoritative translations of the Koran agree on the word "scourge" or "beat"). EU laws forbid Islam to be criticised and regards it as a crime to do so. I implore the TIMES to speak up in the name of human justice and English freedom and expose the true doctrines and tenets of Islam.
Babbling Brook, london,
Let's stop pretending all faiths are faiths, as we understand the term. Islam is a totalitarian political project masquerading as a faith. Muslims will tell you piously that ‘Islam is a total way of life’. Well, note the word ‘total’, it’s important. It's a ‘total way of life’ that doesn’t include universal human rights and there are many islamic regimes of verifiable oppressiveness to prove it. All four schools of islamic jurisprudence condone and enjoin warfare against non-believers and the territorial expansion of the islamic world. Note the failure of the MCB to condemn the hate literature found at british mosques. Nowhere do we see any resolve to purge the ‘faith’ of these tendencies. Therefore, they must be integral parts of it.
Mike Woodman, Bradford, UK
Why is it that there is now a rush of successful british people leaving the UK for the safer shores of Australia and New Zealand?
The UK is playing with fire with its open immigration policy and sympathy to all things Islam.
I agree with so many others that say Islam and western freedom cannot sit nicely together.
One is blatantly repressive (no matter how much spin a muslim will try and tell you otherwise) which clashes with what the other stands for. Islam is a much bigger problem for the UK than most realise.
Can anyone show me any story showing such welcoming arms and acceptance of building churches all through a middle eastern country?
Some nations view the west as immoral and 'weak' with our compassion and belief in human rights and womans rights, yet are happy to make use of it to relocate and get housing aid etc.
Caleb, London,
In their attempt to promote multiculturalism the powers at be may be responsible for the decline in our own Christian religion. No one is suggesting that government requires the people to attend church, but if they stoped apologising for our Christian traditions and beleifs and accepted that our own liberalism was in a way derived from the teachings of Christ; love thy neighbour etc, then two things might follow:
New comers to these lands would accept these as our beliefs without question, while having the freedom to follow their own religions, and second,
This rediculous pass time of trying to eradicate, reduce or ridicule our culture, which includes religion and Christmas may at last come to an end.
In Islamic countries one can be executed for being suspected of trying to convert a muslim to another religion; especially Christianity.
I personally think we should make no apology or give any allowance to other faiths that in their own land operate thus.
John Lewis, London, UK
Multiculturalism was always a non-concept for the simple reason that it ignored the varieties of religious belief. All religions deserve equal respect but not all religions can be regarded as equal in terms of their theology, doctrinal concepts, ethics and rituals. (I include certain forms of Marxism and fundamentalist atheism as included in any definition of "religion".) The current battle of ideas in the West is between Christianity and fundamentalist atheism while the battle of ideology worldwide is between Christian humanism and "reformation" Islam. In the former battle, Christianity will win out in the end because fundamentalist atheism has too much recent baggage, eg Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tsedong and Pol Pot, and no sustainable philosophical basis. The battle of ideas (and practice) between the world's two most sophisticated religions, however, will last for most of the current century. In the end what is the essential difference between the two? Their founders' lives!
Dr David Green, Athens, Greece
Religion is the first resort of unbelievers...
Unlearned, London, England
minette,
i agree with ruxanna. your article was good until you had to have your obligatory dig at islam and muslims. do journalists think they won't be taken seriously if they don't mention these in any article the write?
ghulam abbas, edinburgh,
To paraphrase a saying from the New Testament, the measure of a religion is according to the deeds of its adherents.
If one considers the harm performed respectively in the name of the three Judeo-Christian religions, over last 1400 years, which religion comes out clearly on top?
Now repeat the exercise for the last 500 years, 100 years, 50 years, 20 years, 10 years....
AH, Harrogate, UK
'There is no compulsion in religion' - a selective quote used frequently by Muslims who always neglect to mention that this was abrogated and the true Islamic opinion towards apostates and non-Muslims is far from tolerant. The only distortion of Islam is to purport that it is a religion of peace which suggests either duplicity, or ignorance of the true meaning of the Koran.
Jeanne Hawkins, Lydbrook, Gloucestershire
"Of course it is quite common to find
muslims who do not understand their own religion." -- John, LONDON
Sir, I disagree... Saudi Arabia churns out more Islamic Religious scholars in one year, then Hollywood film industry churns out dvd's.
Mohammed, London, UK
"In truth, nobody believes that - whether Muslim, gentile, Hindu, Jew, wiccan or heathen." This is not correct with respect to Hindus because HInduism believes that complete freedom of faith and does not have either proselytisation or destruction of unbelievers or even athiests.
Jeane, Amsterdam,
In many other countries, like Indonesia, India, South America, different races and religions have lived together without major inter- racial conflict. in recent history, Conflict has always been started by the powerful right-wing elements, on one side or the other. and so , it is feelings and beliefs of extremes that have to be curtailed, and not religions and culture themselves.
The media, the people, and governemt play a large part of this.
but there is no doubt, that terrorist attacks can cause peoples views to swing to one extreme, if allowed or encouraged. it is the extremist, violent , unreasonable philophies that have to be eradicated, not groups of people themselves.Let us not forget Europes shameful history , caused by greed, arrogance, unfairness and intolerance. Surely we have learned something from the past?
Andrew Watson, London, UK
Islam is a religion which believes it is following God and is
based on the revelation of the Koran. It is a theocracy not a
democracy, believing that every aspect of life should be governed by Sharia law. Protestant-Christianity is a religion
which also believes it is following God and is based on the
revelation of the Bible. It led in this country after the reformation and the English civil war to the Democratic
parliamentary system that we still have today. From the
reformation to the second world war when Britain was a
protestant-christian nation it's story was one of continued
advance and success and greatness. What we believe
determines how we behave and therefore the destiny of the
nation.
Philip, Dorset, England
I really wish all of this superstitious, mediaeval nonsense would go away. In the liberal West it is slowly - not quickly enough for me - being consigned to the waste bin of history.
The key values of our society should be respect for the law, for others and for the world in which we live; personal responsibility, equality and support for the disadvantaged; and a State that upholds these values that is unconnected to any of the superstitious traditions.
So sorry, I'd dump Christmas too. Though by all means let's celebrate one year's passing and a new one beginning.
Yorkie, Urban Yorkshire, UK
The truth that nobody wants to face is that, as an ideology, Islam is wholly incompatible with Western liberalism. But, sooner or later, face it we must. Either we surrender our beliefs to Islam, or Muslims surrender their beliefs to ours. There can be no compromise.
John Vincent, Christchurch, New Zealand
This country is dead, but it wasn't the immigrants who killed it. It is scary that such a innovative and noble (but often misguided) civilization can descend into such irrationality, apathy and self-doubt.
James, Sunderland, England, UK
Minette I was enjoying your article until I reached the bit which says ' a large proportion of British Muslims think that the penalty for abandoning the faith should be death', after reading that I thought well who on earth are these large proportion, is this a made up number?? When was the poll taken, no one ever asks me as a British Muslim? No Minette, if any Muslim wants to abandon their faith they can do so , after all Islam is the only religion that says their is no compulsion in religion. Equally I would rather if Christians celebrated the birth of Jesus in its true spirit instead of indulging in it as a commercial activity. Islam does not deny women any rights in fact it is the only religion that actually gives women rights, unfortunately Islam has been distorted by some Men who use religion as a weapon to keep women under control. In Britain we have social injustice and legal injustices , take the rights of men and divorce. But I also enjoy a roast turkey on Christmas day.
ruxana nasser, south buckinghamshire,
Not so, Brian, the Chinese traditionally have three religions: Taoism for ceremonies while their living, Buddhism for their funerals, and Confucianism for morality. It's only the exculisivist religions in the Judæo-Christian tradition like Judaism, Christianity and Islam which can't get along. The solution to their conflict is to divide up the religious functions among them. Perhaps, Christianity for ceremonies, since nothing compares with the splendor of a Catholic high mass; Judaism for morality since it is all covered in the Torah, Talmud and Mishna; and Islam for funerals because of the simplicity.
Firros, Hubbard Woods, Illinois, USA
This so -called Christmas that this poor creature Minette Marrin is so worried about has very little to do with real Christianity. So spending so much money eating to much and getting drunk all for a man who was neither British or a Christian.
Paul Egbunike, London, England
Let's stop pretending that unbelief is anything but delusional.
John, Birmingham, UK
Hi,
Your touching on a delicate subject. In my book shelf I have a copy of the KORAN (in German) which I tried to read. I must confess I do not understand this very difficult book that has a wide range of interpretation. That this book is a highway code for millions of people should not go unnoticed. Multiculturalism is the practicalities of people living together and has something to do with getting on with your neighbour.
Regard Dr. Terence Hale Zandvoort
Terence Hale, zandvoort, Holland
No other nation puts their own culture to such humiliation. Why do let these people undermine us so easily. I am not a believer but we cut away at our traditions and holes for others to fill.
I live in the Middle East, Ramadam ended recently and I can assure you that it was not mooted here whether its retsrictions should be watered down, renamed, made voluntary etc... We were asked to be respectful of those observing it and to change our actions to avoid insulting anyone.
We did this willingly because there is a acknowledgement within the expat community that we are living, by choice, in a different culture. It would be complete arrogance to expect the host to change purley to accomodate my needs.
That there is a tolerance to different cultures here is acknowledgement of the beneficial exchange not some wishy washy sentiment.
chris, Dubai, UAE
The Puritans are back and are after Christmas again. Although it was the Scottish Presbyterians who got rid of Christmas last time.
Susan, Barry, S Wales
Oliver Cromwell abolished Christmas - if only we could have a Lord Protector to id us of the IPPR and its immature ravings and rantings. Isn't t time for Labour to take its pubescent self-publicists and discard them into some convenient waste-bin ?
CCTV, Bristol, England
Miqdaad Versi
Islam does mean submission.
"...to the will of God/Allah/the Supreme Being, reaching peace with your conscience and making peace with God...etc. etc" are
different words which you will not find in the dictionary
definition of Islam. Of course it is quite common to find
muslims who do not understand their own religion.
John, LONDON,
Lets stop pretending 'faith' is anything other than delusional.
Steve, Salisbury,
Cherie can comment on most things but never on paedophile priests in the catholic church.
john garrett, colombo, sri lanka
When my children were growing up, they both attended schools with children from 'foreign' backgrounds, and with differing religious affiliations.
Oddly, despite what the PC-do-gooders seem to think, no-one seemed to object to children taking part in Christian celebrations and festivities.
So, when they were gearing up for Christmas, Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus and others were included and willingly participated. The kids enjoyed it all, and no parents objected.
As I was told in one Governors' meeting, "We came to live in a Christian country, so we expect you to adhere to your faith."
ChrisP, Southampton, England
Religion is or should be a personal matter. The state does not need to have a stance on religion. For the state, religion should be irrelevant. The state should be determinedly secularist. That is the only viable solution. It is easy for a secular state to espouse universal human rights, only when religion of whatever form gets involved does it create difficulties.
And why should christmas be an issue? Christmas has become, for the vast majority of us, a pleasant end of year holiday when people happen to be nicer to each other for a few days. It's just a break, a holiday, a time for family. I have a friend from a Hindu background who was surprised and delighted and touched to be given a Christmas present. He wasn't appalled or offended. Those who assume that people from different cultures will be offended by Christmas or other festivals are actually guilty of racism. Are they offended by Eid or Diwali? Then why should others be offended by Christmas?
Paul Owen, Birmingham, UK
can u please stop the standard rhetoric like
"Islam which, after all, means submission." - Islam means submission to the will of God/Allah/the Supreme Being, reaching peace with your conscience and making peace with God...etc. etc. - there are a lot of things you can criticise Islam for but do not be silly
(but i do agree with the thrust of the article...not the Muslim-target nature.....but the fact that why on earth should they stop Christmas or nething like that....i doubt any minorities would be for that.....thats just ridiculous.....)
Miqdaad Versi, Harrow, UK
Note to Gordon: Minette does not yet love Big Brother, please schedule her for a diversity re-education experience asap.
Tony, Dubai,
If you believe in one religion you cannot believe in another. Perhaps the answer is to believe in demonstrable facts, and communication. We could agree on that. If this does not clash with our religion we can believe that as well.
Brian Gilbert, Hampton, Middx