The educational establishment seems to think that to be intelligent you need to have a diploma or degree. Luckily there are many people around who genuinely like study and do not need the evidence of a piece of paper to succeed in life - whatever that might be, it is certainly not money.

Brian Lewis, Manila, Philippines

I recently graduated as a mature student.Our system merely fills universities with kids from wealthy families who are unremittingly stupid+disinterested.how about a quota system for admissions,top 10% of pupils from every school?HE shouldn't be a3 year holiday for the dull-eyed offspring of the rich

Jonah, London, uk

After a terrible experience at a state grammar 5 years ago, rather than complaining I'm going back to that school with my Oxford degree and will run a debating society and Latin/Ancient Greek classes on a voluntary basis from September.

Art changes people and people change the world.

Roisin McCourt, Manchester,

My Lord, are you suffering from this, too? In the US, we have "no child left behind," which has enticed the best teachers to focus on the most mundane skills, for fear of leaving a student "behind."

No child gets ahead.

Dean, Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Equating meritocracy with elitism has taken away every incentive to excel. Why push yourself or your child when no matter how hard you tried you would still be put in a school of mediocrity? You don't see this happening in a private school. The state system has levelled everyone down.

SP Lee, Harrow,

Able kids (not swots) are not held back by the curriculum per se, the upper limit of which does cover challenging material, but rather the "equalising" system that insists they "tick every box" instead of allowing them to skip bean counting and explore these more interesting and rigorous topics.

c thomson, london ,

No-one wants to say that some kids are smart and some are dumb. The dumb ones used to do trades or work the fields and the smart ones became rocket scientists. Now the media and schools have made the dumb ones think they ought to be rocket scientists too. Is it any wonder the system is a mess?

Paul Francis, Brisbane, Australia

Sam des, think very carefully about univerisity and properly research what you can do next once you have your degree. Many of us who have already graduated have found that our degrees, good or bad, do not open the doors we were told they would and have struggled to find any job.

Clare Scott, Exeter, UK

One size does not fit all, streaming and vocational qualifications recognise different abilities and learning styles. Give all children a good grounding in English, maths and science and bring in good, properly recognised vocational options for those who can excel at non-academic skills/subjects

Holly Maudling, Exeter, UK

There's never been such a great diversity of choice in education as there is today. It's that which is abandoning large sections of society to certain failure.

david, ely,

An idea: to lessen the stigma of vocational subjects, adopt the continental system of having pupils freely choose an academic or a vocational school at 14. And let's make the vocational courses practical&hands on, and the academic pathway broad and rigorous.

Amy Allen, London,

The unfortunate mixed ability experiment comes from an idea that "good" education will remove disadvantage and make the world different. This has not happened, instead the able are disadvantaged. Bright kids from the world of unchanged economic reality will prosper. The UK will be left behind.

William Howell, Gloucester,

Remember that the clamour for the reorganisation of the Education System when Saint Margaret was Minister for Education was started by middle class parents who didn't want their thick kids being taught in Secondary Modern Schools. Maggie caved in to their pressure. Bring back selection.

E Heath, broadstairs, england

Hi - great source of information. However you don't seem to include Media or Journalism in your tables which would be helpful and your competitors do include!

Also in the drop down menu for the subject area - Mathematics is spelt - Mathamatics!!!!

Kind regards
Siobhan

Siobhan Scanlon, Birmingham, UK

Quality in Education has been advocated in pursuit of equality because through quality education we change our perspective

Damian Marcus Podtung, Tambunan, Malaysia

I am sitting my A levels at the moment, and there's no way I am going to get 3 A's. Who are these people that get straight A's? Maybe 1 or 2 people in my sixth form will get that. My A level's are English Literature, Business Studies and German. I have never been to Germany. To me, that says it all.

Chantelle, Bognor,

I also experienced the dogma in the 70's -- a perfectly good grammar school turned into a comprehensive, so that louts could drag things down.

The reality is that there is no state education any more; just a hateful charade. If you want to educate your children, you have to go private.

Roger, Ipswich,

Sunday Times - 8th June 2008

Article by Giles Hattersly on Lord Snowdon:

'Lord Snowdon ...who was SAT across the room...'

WHY DO PEOPLE SAY 'SAT' OR STOOD when they mean sitting or standing? !!

Sarah Davis, Bath,

Professor John White has the blood on his hands of every child in the UK that has been stabbed by another child. Because of idiots like him this country is seriously failing its children in a way that is at once cynical and impervious to reason.

Victoria, London, UK

This article seems to be based in part on the dangerous assumption that being taught well so that you get an A at A-Level automatically means that you are going to be better prepared for a uni education. All the evidence suggests that A-Levels are not a good guide at all, regardless of grade.

Matthew W, London,

The Marxist trash rolled out in the 70's (I lived through it in a bog-standard comp) is everywhere in the state education system, LEAs, teachers unions, the teacher training colleges - and the education establishment. We can't get rid of it, so send your kids to Independent schools if you can.

Stephen, London, England

Well done Minette Marrin, you have shown up the stupidity of Educators (who once called themselves Educationists!) These educational theorists are really political animals, that is why shallow politicians like them. Yes, the State should pay for education, but not control it.

S Wilcox, London, UK

The rot has now gone so deep as to threaten our national ability to provide basic modern techological experts for the future. Go to the engineering faculties of the Russell Group and ask how many post grads working there are from the UK. You will find them packed students from the far East.

BigIb, Dalston, UK

Education designed according to Marxist theory was bound to fail. Its basis, equality, is a myth. Other English-speaking countries cherish differences, which is why they succeed.
Silly ministers' populist prattle is no substitute for rational & sound education planning & strategies.

Kiwi Expat, London, UK

My kids won't be schooled in the state system in this country. Too much of a gamble.

The grammar school to which I went was run like a private school and was - is - very successful.

It was run on a meritocratic basis...if you were good enough, you were in. Regardless of background...excellent!

william tapley, London, UK

mixed ability classes are obscene. there are always kids who have no interest in education and will never so why put them in the same lectures as people who generally care about their academic work? this is socialism in the worst way possible. dumb down the best b/c its only fair, give me a break.

Alex, London, England

Google "John Taylor Gatto" and "Charlotte Iserbyt" if you want to understand the education mess in all western countries.

Victoria, Toronto, Canada

The simplistic equality mantra entails a leveling obsession with mean averages and the distortion of pupils' individuality through the sweepingly generalizing prisms of `class' and `race' (which are also the twin obsessions of my children's English curriculum).

C A, London, UK

If there is any correlation between education and happiness or education and wealth, I have yet to see it
I recently attended the 50 years re-union of my old Grammar School.
What sems to have decided our respective life styles was more fate than ability.
So will it ever be

Peter Bolt, Redditch, UK

As a 22 year old from the state system. I can not agree more with your comments. I spent the last 4 years of my schools days before university trying to explain this to the teachers and senior staff at my school.

Regards

James, Beijing, China

Imperial College London has too many grade A applicants? Oh what a shock. Its only the premier university in the country for engineering and physics. Its the same as Oxford and Cambridge; only the top students even bother applying so of course most get As. Others are lowering requirements, so what?

Laurence, Redhill, UK

Pathetic. All this time, all this waste, and nearly everyone STILL confuses 'equal' with 'same', when there is no conceivable way in which one can treat all people in the same way, without failing entirely to treat them as equals.

Mjx, NYC,

It's rather strange to read such wierd ideas about the gifted & the talantless in the context of education. Abilites vary, still everybody needs a decent education. I simply do not see what's wrong with national carriculum.University is not for everyone, but decent secondary education is possible.

Pam, St.petersburg,

Do you have any actual evidence of grade inflation? I've never seen any. Comparing exam questions is completely useless -- you have to compare the quality of the marked papers, and when I last checked none of the exam boards keeps samples over time.

Harry Brighouse, Madison, USA

Good article! G Green yes but I would add very small urban village schools of various specialties for those who need a close relationship with a teacher to learn. Children from chaotic depriving families cannot bear any sort of Ed that
makes them feel invisable again.

Craig, St Albans, UK

Qualifications can be completely irrelevant towards achieving success & satisfaction in life. Many &, in fact, the most succesful people are college dropouts or not being schooled at all. Ask Bill Gates or any number of our Russian oligarchs.

ian cheese, london, uk

The comment on Third World education in Anthony Back's comment might not be universally accurate,if at all.I reject the concept of a Third World but must note that my formal and informal education in Nigeria was clearly broad,deep and rigorous.
It was at times more democratic than Engand's.

Toyin Adepoju, CAMBRIDGE, England

"...it isn't difficult to get an A."

As someone who obtained two A-grades in Maths and Physics only a couple of years ago I strongly disagree. If you mean an A in media studies or some other non-subject then fair-play. But don't denigrate those of us who worked hard for our results.

James, Newcastle, UK

Ignorant? Well I don't know,David Kay.I don't think only four languages is very impressive, the operas you are going to may well be the easy ones (Gounod's banal Faust say),light reading about the useless Hapsburgs isn't very prestigious and as for plumbing, well that's just not 'our class darling.

ric campbell, harrogate, uk

do you mean to say that children aren't all the same ?

Andrew Johnson, hants,

Since this country voted three times to become a Third World power it makes sense for the education system to be tailored for that role. Provided you can correctly fill in an incapacity claim form you have learned enough to get by, thank you very much.

Anthony Back, Wellington, Telford, England

It's interesting that comments are restricted to 300 characters. Perhaps this is the maximum that The Times feels its readers are able to string together coherently, particularly if they are products of our current school system.

Albert, Dumbarton,

Every year those of us criticizing the falling school standards are blamed for belittling the achievements of hard-working students. The real shame should be felt by those in government for denying children the chance of a genuine education.

William Hiley, Dundee,

I took 4 A levels + general studies 2 years ago so I'm not an old sweat longing for the old days - but grade inflation only hindered my application as everyone had the same grades as me.

Have the politicians not realised that a B would actually be pretty good if only 10% or so got As? Just a though

Matt, London,

I can't agree more. I just hope that there is someone with an influence on government education policy for the Tories who agrees with you!

Chris, Guildford, UK

There is a simple solution to this problem, one that Imperial College has arrived at: allow the institutions which require exams as an arbiter of quality and suitability to set those exams. Thus the universities should set exams for entrance to academia and employers set those for training etc. Easy

Paul Owen, Birmingham, UK

As a retired teacher, with experience of primary, secondary and tertiary education, I believe we must put truth above doctrine. The false socialist doctrine, on which the entire comprehensive system was based, was the belief that intelligence is not genetically inherited, but "socially conditioned".

Edmund Burke, Kingston upon Thames, England

Fully agree with all this. It is sad it has to even be stated! Welcome to the unreal universe of New Labour UK. My only query here is since when was UCL allegedly the 3rd best uni in the country? Oxbridge leaves one place, which undoubtedly goes to either Imperial in science or LSE in social science

Ian Hart, Oxford,

The old entrance exams for Oxbridge may or may not have been harder, after all Ms Marin had just argued that A levels then were much more difficult, but they certainly ruled out candidates from other than "public" schools since they were not taught for the special exams and did not study Latin.

Ian, Frederick, USA

Robert from Hull, I certainly hope your punctuation errors aren't symptomatic of your teaching style, otherwise we're all sunk.

John F, London,

The 11 plus promoted social mobility. Middle class parents of thick kids objected. Comprehensives were invented but did not work More middle class parents moved to the private sector. Comprehensives got worse. Bright, working class kids suffered. Labour should back selection!

Kim Penfold, Bridgetown, Barbados

David Haslett, leicester, UK - the scary thing about Idiocracy is not jus tthat it might happen, it's how much of it already has.

J. Wilkes, Gloucester,

Given his remarks, Professor John White of the "notoriously progressive Institute of Education" impresses me as someone who hated school, teachers, discipline, and learning itself. Now, having risen to the heights, he is having his revenge.

RW, Victoria, BC, Canada

New Labour - New danger! Mind you the conservatives and liberals would probably be no better!

This makes me think of a film called "Idiocracy" where the human race in 500 years time is just "stupid", maybe it will happen that way?

David Haslett, leicester, UK

Life is competitive, the world is competitive, but do you want a thick doctor? Or airline pilot? In '47 I went to our local Grammar, and we also took top lads from the secondary modern school. If the UK does not want to become a third world country, return to selection, at 12-14, life is not fair.

David Vinter, Louth, Lincs., UK.

I'm getting pretty tired of hearing that, "it isn’t difficult to get an A" because 25% of students obtain one in an individual subject. I think that the other 75% of students would probably have disagree.

P. Black, Dublin, Ireland

Even if it were true that 25% now get As because they are cleverer or better taught than previous generations you would STILL need to make the exams harder. The whole purpose of grading is to show whether A is better than B at subject C. This helps A, B, teachers, colleges and prospective employers.

Rosemary, Germany,

I have never understood the logic of:

a) Having a national curriculum to improve standards of education.

b) Then setting up city academies which can deliver better education as they are not bound by the national curriculum.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

Peter, London,

Minnette Marrin is mostly right - but as a teacher with 25 year's experience in primary and junior education who struggled against the maladministration of education by consecutive governments, I'm nauseated she has the gall to imply that the blame rests with ordinary, classroom teachers.

Robert, Hull, UK

At the heart of the problems withing education is left wing dogma which refuses to believe that we are all different. They seem to think that we can all reach the top. A smashing idea but typical of the left who like great sounding rhetoric but fail to ever see any pitfall in their pursuit.

D Case, Newquay,

This is nothing new. The process of levelling down starts when children leave primary school to go to a comprehensive secondary school, where they find themselves in amongst a larger group, waiting for more to catch up. The brighter ones become demotivated and never reach their full potential.

Paul, Coventry,

For active minds, learning never ends, so why are we largely a country of resentful snobs, pretending to be what we are not? Phooey!

Britain is for ALL of us, so abolish mixed ability classes, and give ALL our children the best education available, subject to their learning ability.

Alan Robinson, Bjerreby, Denmark

It's too late at 18? What total crap! I left school at 16, trained as a chef, graduated at 40 from the OU and got a masters from The London School of Economics at 42. Ones ability to "be educated" is like any market it takes two or more parties to freely agree to a transaction.

martin, New Malden, UK

Kakhi, I don't know what your son has been telling you, but detention is really not that awful. You get half an hour or an hour of absolute peace and quiet. I use it to my homework or read a book. If you live in a busy household it's absolute bliss.

Alfy, London,

The old Oxbridge system was opaque and corrupt, with colleges having cosy tie-ups with favoured public schools. Entrance exam results were secret, leaving the system immune to scrutiny.

You'd be screaming if a local council worked like this - why should public funded univerities be different.

Nick, France,

It's interesting to see the broad opinion. In my area the primary education has been outstanding. I removed my children from the appalling secondary system as they were suppressed and victimized for being intelligent by an unforgiveable mis-guided policy of social engineering.

JP, Newport, Wales

The other ongoing story of the week is the UCU trying to boycott Israeli academia (again). Most of their universities leave our rebricks standing. These are the sort of pathetic people you are talking about working their way up the ladder. Oh dear ! So much for any 'education'.

Victor M., Chelmsford, Essex.,

One size education does not fit all and never will. Every child has it's own unique talents ALL of which should be valued.

Class is not the issue here. Parental support and aspiration is a major factor in determining success in whatever field - academic or artisan. Variety = spice of life!

Phoebe, Manchester, England

Academic rigour where fundamentals are understood is important in engineering, medicine and language so further maths, physics, chemistry, latin and ancient greek are an advantage for some areas of study. Not for all vocations and not the path all would select at 11 but some would. Grammar schools?

Nick, Bexley, England

Let's start by acknowledging that boys and girls need to be taught differently. 50 years ago schools taught the way boys need to learn, and girls were underachieving. for the last 30-40 years teaching methods have been for the benefit of girls, and, unsurprisingly, boys achievement has plummeted.

Bob Finbow, Haverhill, England

so under your plans who reads Macbeth and in the workshop? As Dyspraxia suffer , who attended a comprehensive school, who's A-Level level History class was 22 in number , I know where system goes wrong. but i will not allow you return on classism!

Benjmain O'Connor, Milton keynes, United kingdom

I'm over 60 and learned parsing and Latin. I speak 4 languages reasonably well ( due to Latin) and the current book I am reading is the Hapsburgs by Wheatcroft. I am going to the opera twice next week. I do plumbing to professional standard ( not gas). Ignorant?

David Kay, Hemingford, England

It's almost a worldwide phenomenon, save in countries whose education authorities refuse to pull wool over their eyes and succumb to the absurd notion that every kid can be made into a genius by manipulation of facts & figures. Even an ersatz Einstein, Schweitzer, Brunel, et al. will do.

SD Goh, PJ, Malaysia

1. Bring back grammar schools; 2. Bring in innovative technical schools to include apprenticeships in partnership with industry. 3. Introduce a flexible means of changing to the other type of school at 13 if a child's ability/interest has changed as he/she matures.
G. Green, France.

G. Green, Tarn et Garonne, France

Minette has neatly encapsulated the problem, and hinted at the solution: education to fit the child, rather than the child contorted to fit the education. This will not be possible until we can accept, politically, the concept that diversity of interest and ability is part of what makes life good.

Gordon Cardew, NORWICH, UK

What is needed are grammar schools, secondary modern schools and an 11 plus exam for selection. I'm sure there used to be such a system. It was also was much more effective than the disaster you've got today.

Richard, Upper Hutt, New Zealand

Some kids will want to learn and a formal education is inferior in all ways apart from career prospects for these natural learners. They will learn how to do crime and do it well in the city or the council estate if not identified and gently guided towards academia. Education not indocrination.

kevin, Lincoln, UK

My grandchildren know a lot more than I did at their age. The most ignorant generation alive at the moment is the over 60s - those educated in the good old days of chanting tables and parsing (the second most useless skill ever - the first being learning Latin).

eric campbell, harrogate, uk

Much of what is said in this article is spot on.

I take issue with the comment about there being a shortage of teachers ( a myth) and teachers being under qualified. I am a well qualified and able teacher. I a can't get a job because I am older and schools prefer young less able NQT's

Fleur Gardener, Bodmin., England

Well said. It is a shame that somebody stating the obvious, but important fact that not everyone has the same ability seems like a breath of fresh air. Can we vote for you?

Kevin Browne, Reading, Berkshire, England

Even in the Soviet Union we did not have this stupid system of detaining of pupils for wrong doings, that is , putting them under arrest after classes, keeping them alone for an hour inside four walls?!!! My son simply dreads psychologically to get detention. Kids are not terrorist suspects, Mr. B

Kakhi, London, UK

As a former teacher spot on

john d forster, nice, france

Absolutely right, Minette - it's all been a shameful, and wilful, failure to distinguish between attempting to force everyone into a standard mould and recognising their differences through equality of opportunity. The great RH Tawney must be turning in his grave at Labour's complicity in this.

D. Milligan, Bristol, UK

Thatcher wanted half the youth population of this country to go to "university". So the Poly's became "universities" and "A" levels, with every passing (every pun intended) year have become easier and easier. When I took my "A" levels - about a thousand years ago, it seems, an A pass was a rarity.

Hugh Wain, Mortimer, England

The best way of determining a child's iq is to add up the mother's & father's & divide by 2. So why not create schools on that basis? - oh, we already have. They're called Public Schools. Then we could have other schools for intellectual anomalies - intelligent kids from dumb parents - grammars.

James, New York, USA

Sadly the people receiving this mediocre education will be teaching the next generation, thus perpetuating this awful politically correct mess. Thank heavens for my four 'O' Levels which enabled me to reach the top of my chosen career. My grandchildren will not be so fortunate.

Pat Chandler, Bakersfield, CA, USA

As progressives like John White go wittering on about their class prejudices, think of this. We have no clue what education parents would choose if they had a choice.

Britain has had over a century of top-down expert-led compulsory education. The experts have spoken. But not the parents.

Christopher Chantrill, Seattle, USA

Very well said, and all too accurate.

wpo, warsaw, n.y.

Generally speaking state infant & junior school education is abysmal, things get much better at senior school.

VJay, London,

A-Level results get inflated because people such as myself (soon to be sixth-form leavers) are given no choice but to possess a degree to get a decent job. Jobs that used to be taken by school leavers are now graduate only. i feel forced into going uni when i'd happily get a job if it wasn't deadend

Sam des, london,

None of us are equally COMPETENT, all of us are equally VALUABLE.

That is the problem. We can't equate human value as distinct from specific work skills.

It comes from our debased history of slavery, worker exploitation etc.

A mother's love of her baby isn't correlated with maths 'O' level.

Rhys Jaggar, Leeds, UK