During the trauma of the 1832 reform bill the Duke of Wellington warned: This will all end in democracy! Well it hasn't yet, we still elect our betters to take decisions for us. If democracy is an evolving process its next step must be to include referendums in our constitution. The corrupt party whipping system means we can no longer trust MPs to keep their word or act in our best interests.

John Ledbury, Kings Lynn, England

You say that the majority of Eurosceptics want Europe to be reformed. From my many visits to the UK and from living there for 15 years my impression is that the majority of the British would vote tomorrow to leave the whole rotten mess.

Bob Murray, Reno, Nevada

We've been continuously lied to ever since that Heath creature tricked us into a "trade" agreement with Europe.

Neil N. Salmon, Ashley, England

I feel some people should note that Britain has already joined and is a member state of the European Union and has been since 1973, and it was Maggie Thatcher herself who made the decision to join. Sorry to break that to you. What people seem to forget is that it was in our national interest to join! We have economically benefitted from the EU and many of the public are so ignorant to believe that it is merely an issue of nationalism. Soverignty isn't a matter of nationalism, it's a political term that was coined at the Peace of Westphalia in 1658 and if you think the EU is trying to encroach on our sovereignity, I think you'll find you're grossly mistaken. Get a grip on your hysteria. The Lisbon Treaty is more a case of fixing the institution to work more efficiently and cope with the recent enlargements and our national government is only concerned with being re-elected, so it won't ratify it even if it is really in state interest. Just because they don't want a public backlash

M. Shah, Keele,

This has not just stirred up hatred toward the EU but also toward this slimy Labour party who once again have lied to us . If a Labour party worker came to my door canvasing I would be hard pressed not to give that person a good hiding. I normally look forward to debating views on the doorstep at election times but this issue has so incensed me I can hardly believe how angry I have become. I would not wont to be in the shoes of a Labour supporter come the next election as they will suffer considerable abuse on the doorsteps. I hope for their sake they do not come to my door.

D Case, Newquay,

It was more than a little difficult to take the boy Milliband's patronising destruction of my country's constitution.

David, Bromley,

Here in France we hate the European Union and the Euro, which tripled the prices of many goods and services when it was introduced. Sarkozy refused us a referendum as well as he is their lap dog. Our representatives are currently filling their pockets by padding their expense accounts and this true scandal has received one brief mention only on French radio, though I sent copies of the Times stories to all the major TV networks. We must in retaliation de-elect or force to resign, any official in every European country who has refused the right of referendum. Their sole vulnerability in this moment is the LARGE number of reps who have broken the law and stolen money from the community through false declarations on their expense accounts. The Times has already published several stories concerning these thefts. Now we need to begin the indictments. If we can force the reps to resign and send a GOOD NUMBER to prison, or "home in disgrace" we can put pressure on them to obey US!

victor compton, Cherbourg, France

William, you are stating the obvious. The real question is, what is a concerned electorate to do? Continue to stomach the shoddy treatment from rubbish politicians or REVOLT! What does the wise one recommend???????

Pauli, London,

The eagerness of some of your Europhile readers to spread disinformation by claiming that referenda are not the British way of doing things, when in fact there have been referenda on all major constitutional questions under new Labour, reminds me of a question I periodically ask myself.

If you support a cause, such as the EU, but you find yourself driven to present false or dishonest arguments to support it, what does that say?

What sort of person tells us "I support this cause, but unfortunately I have to tell you a lie to explain my enthusiasm and to try to persuade you"?

Apart from people who are paid by some PR agency to post comments - and there are such people - I can't imagine any sane or reasonable person doing such a strange and foolish thing.

jon livesey, Sunnyvale, CA/USA

Most Eurosceptics have no illusion that the EU can be reformed. The EU was built from the foundation up on deceit and lies. “Reformation” would require that the foundation itself be uprooted.

Two existential threats face the UK, and Europe at large. One is the EU and the other is the demographic conquest of Europe by Islam. For both these threats - the EU and Islam, there seems to be wilful blindness, and the naïve hope that they can be reformed. In the case of the EU, thirty years trying to reform the EU or CAP has failed dismally. In the case of Islam, no reformation in the acceptable meaning of the word, is possible.

Failure to recognise existential threats are the prime cause of downfall of even powerful civilisations.

DaveP, Beverley, UK

Or perhaps it is reassuring to observe that politicians can still accept that they have made a mistake, even if they cannot admit to it.

Henry Percy, London, UK

To Sandy, Ayrshire:

Thank you for your comments regarding Richard from Plymouth post. You are absolutely correct. We, in the US, are constantly being told by the British press, etc.. how we shoud run the US, right down to who we should vote for in Presidential elections, Hillary or Obama. Granted 99% of the time we don't listen, and perhaps we should listen more, but I digress. It is only fair that we should, in return, be able to weigh in on British issues once in a while. My ancestry is entirely British, and yes I do care about Britain for that very reason and many others.

As for the Lisbon Treaty (United States of Europe), that is up to Britain to decide, though sadly it looks like the British public will not be given that opportunity.

Cheers.

Mary Russell, Atlanta, US

For anyone interested, here is a speech given by European Commission Vice President Margot Wallström to the Irish National Forum in anticipation of the Irish referendum on Lisbon. I think she provides an excellent summary of the benefits of the treaty - see the section 'Lisbonne: douze points'. There is a lot in the speech that relates to Ireland, naturally, but the 12 points she provides are applicable to the entire EU.

She rightly concludes that she wants the people of Ireland to be able to decide their vote in the referendum "because they know what's in the Treaty and they understand what benefits it will bring." This is something that is missing in England. I commend James' suggestion of a test for potential referndum voters, but am not sure if people would be exactly responsive to this (!).

http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/press_office/speeches-press_releases/wallstromforumspeech_en.htm

KC, St Albans,

The only good thing to come out of this whole disgraceful and shameful affair is that the issue is now our actual membership of the EU. I now have no doubt at all that we need to get out of it - and fast. I will not now vote for any party that does not have this as a central policy.

Nicholas Lee, Windsor, UK

Brown's refusal to hold a referendum on the EU re-treaty simply highlights his appalling lack of understanding of what our country wants and stands for.

An EU referendum has been totally, wilfully ignored.

Brown's Stalinist intransigence, despite the reports of the Common's Foreign affairs committee and the Labour dominated select committee which seemed to agree with the majority of this country, namely that we do want a referendum, illustrates just how far we have moved towards a totalitarian State, where the will of the majority means nothing to Left-Wing politicians who " know best".

This is mirrored by the Brussels " elite".

The patronising, revealing Left-wing Marxist arguments in Parliament, along the lines that the electorate does "not understand", exemplify the massive gulf that exists now between the "People" and the Labour Party and some career politicians.

The fact that debate is stifled should come as no surprise to anyone - the EU "Parliament" is a mirror of "1984"

Paul Butler, Reading, UK

Mr Brown's moral compass gone west again or does he consider deceit not an issue for this spinning pointer.

robert everitt, wolverhampton,

Scot Richards of London, if timesonline will permit me, the details were published in the Telegraph's issue of 6th March, entitled 'How Your MP Voted on the EU Treaty'.

Shirley Bowen, Blackpool, UK

I'm getting weary of reading anti-EU commentators wasting all their valuable column space simply rehashing quotations from politicians and bogus statistics (such as 95% being unchanged - how can qualitative things be measured in percentage terms? And since when was a dubious quote from GIscard evidence of anything?) But the commentators never dare to do the really useful work of going through the main details of the treaty/ constitution point by point making an argument of substance about the document itself.

Bob, London,

Scot Richards, London, go to http://www.theyworkforyou.com/

Jonathan, Campbeltown,

To Gary Hyams: what is the point of voting in elections if election promises are not kept?

And if it is accepted that politicians can break serious promises on important matters, why not other people?

How would you explain political promise-breaking to your children?

moros, paris,

"Perhaps the late Lord Attlee was right when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues."

- Margaret Thatcher

I fully support a referendum, provided voters first complete a test showing that they've read and understood the Treaty and its implications.

Otherwise, perhaps we ought to leave the decision to our elected representatives, whom we pay handsomely to take decisions and protect us from mob rule.

James, London, UK

Long may William Rees-Mogg keep this betrayal in the public domain. Gordon Brown's only hope is to delay calling a General Election for as long as possible in the vain hope that by then we shall all have forgotten.
I,for one shall never forget, let us hope that neither will the media.

Arthur B Parkinson, Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria

You had a referendum in Frome? Well, I wish I had heard about it!

Jeremy Poynton, Frome, Somerset

labour loves a referendum and would surely have had a referendum on even this changed treaty if they thought they could win it, the same as they would have held a general election already if they thought they could win it. they fool no one.

there are two problems with waiting for an election to boot them out - 1) we have been lied to and the party has not kept a manifesto pledge... what is the point of an election based on more lies? 2) the tories have not committed to reverse the damage and may not be able to.

I suspect that most of those opposed to what is going on in europe are not opposed in principle to strengthening our ties to europe, perhaps political as well as economic, but rather they are opposed to this form of eu. the current structure is wasteful, unaccountable and untrustworthy. I want britain at the heart of europe, not at the heart of what amounts to little more than a secretive crime syndicate.

jem, london, uk

“In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous.”

Publius Cornelius Tacitus

Christopher, Warrington, England

The argument of Constitution/Treaty and having our vote denied by those who offered it will not go away,and as many have pointed out we can rectify this to some degree at the next election.However if the EU is really to be more open to its citizen's it must surely start by at least being democratic.The EU has shown a shocking contempt by being unable to sign off their accounts,how can this be right and why should taxpayers continue to be treated in this way,after all if a company tried this trick it would be closed down.I am not against the EU but I do want some answers,and if France and Holland said NO surely instead of trickery why not be more transparent it is after all something they keep saying they will do,or are they just political empty words just to placate the voters oh dear.

Margot Parker, Kettering , UK

If Parliament has agreed the Lisbon Treaty then do we need Parliament any longer?

Afterall if so much power has been transfered to the faceless beaurocrats in Brussels with this Treaty surely our MPs have just voted themselves out of a job?

They are certainly becoming an irrelevance to most people in the UK as all they do seem interested in is getting their snouts in the trough and setting themselves up for the directorships when they eventually leave the House. The electorate are just being ignored.

Bry Barnes, Somerset, Uk

Any embronic love for the EU has been lost because of immigration, it opens ones eyes to how bureaucrats run things for their own advantage. It is true we can change the UKs government at the next election and punish them for screwing up a great country. There is no similar comeuppance for the EU bureaucrats, which is why we don't wish to have stronger ties, in fact we might be better to cut them.

Chris Ashley, Ely, England

It was dishonest of Labour to EVER promise a referendum. In 2005, there were those who had been calling for the election to be "unofficially" used as a referendum on the EU. Labour only promised this referendum so that the it would NOT be an election issue and so they could trick, or swindle Euro-sceptic labour leaning supporters into voting labour.

The electorate were denied a say on the EU, by Labour, in 2005 and by refusing this referendum, they have breached their promise and broken the trust of everyone (especially that of labour voters who believed the labour lies), and are now effectively in breach of their contract with the electorate. The fact that we have the opportunity, (Civil Contingencies Bill notwithstanding), to vote them out next time is unacceptable. We still have to live with the other policies that they fraudulently enforced on this country since '05.

Labour would have lost the election in '05 if they had been honest and not lied about promising a referendum.

Ken Hall, Barrow in Furness, UK

JJ, you can find out who your MEP is: www.europarl.org.uk

I don’t think we should have a referendum: Lisbon IS NOT a constitution. I’ve reached this conclusion on my own–I’m not just taking the gov's word for it. I believe most people couldn’t make this decision as they don’t know what the EU is & does, & certainly don’t know what’s in the Treaty apart from what tabloids say.

Those who complain Europe is undemocratic & opaque should look at the Treaty & policy behind it–it exists to make Europe more democratic & transparent & achieves this by increasing the European Parliament’s power & influence. It also provides for more consultation of national Pments before EU measures are passed.

The LibDem call for a referendum on UK membership are ridiculous. If Britain wants to become Great again, I believe this can only be achieved by taking a leading role in the EU. The British people need to stop forcing the govenrment to take opt outs which prevent us achieving our true potential

KC, St Albans,

I am not generally in favour of referendums but those saying <you'll get your chance at the next general election> are missing the point.
We should have had our chance to have our say and talk out the issues before the LAST election. That way we would have known or at least had commitments from our MPs which way they would vote on this issue before electing them.
This was undermined by each of the principal parties committing to a referendum thus stifling debate in order to cover up internal rifts.
Getting out of this, if we choose to, will be much more difficult than not going in - we are left hoping the Irish people will stall it so the UK public can have a say.

Ron M, Aberdeen,

I have no objection to being a member of the EU, but strongly object to the continuing erosion of UK sovereignty. I, like the rest of the electorate have been denied a referendum. I have only one thing to say to the Labour Government. You cannot cancel General Elections and guess where my vote will not be going!

J Williams, Manchester, UK

It is all very well some of you saying that we can get our own back by not voting them in at the next election, however it completely misses the point. They were voted in last election on the back of some promises that they failed to keep. In my eyes, that is a break of trust and a break of contract. If this happened in business the situation would allow an early termination of the contract and their jobs on the line. They should not be allowed to hide from their commitments and hope that it will all blow over given time.

THB, Belgravia,

The Constitutional Treaty included a proposed written constitution for the EU. The Lisbon Treaty does not include a proposed written constitution.

The Lisbon Treaty does include many of the proposals that were also in the Constitutional Treaty. But that does not make the Lisbon Treaty a Constitutional Treaty.

J, Grimsby, UK

The new constitution is different from its predecessor only in cosmetic respects. The government bases its claims that we don't now need a referendum not on the supposed, minor, differences between the two constitutions, but on the fact that they have obtained several opt-outs for us from some of the most extreme Euro-integrationist aspects of the constitution.

Their position would only have even a fig-leaf of honesty if they were in a position to give (and would actually give) a rock-solid guarantee that we could have our referendum before those opt-outs were surrendered. They will give no such guarantee. There will be no such referendum. And those opt-outs will be surrendered as soon as they believe they can get away with it.

We must focus our efforts on stopping this constitution, not because it is in itself the worst stage in the federalist process - though it may well be so - but because it is likely to be our last chance to do anything at all about it.

Paul Giles, Baku,

"Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, a former President of France, described the process: “Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly . . . all the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.”

In other words, to use this distinguished gentleman's own language: "Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose!"

Adrian Ryan, Donegal, Ireland

Scot Richards, London,
How your MP voted on the EU Treaty
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/06/neuvote506.xml
This lists all those MPs who voted to renege on Manifesto Promises. A sorry list indeed.

M. Cawdery, Portadown, UK (if it now exists)

So many people (like Mod, below) try to make this an argument about the benefits of European membership. Such arguments would be relevant if we were being offered a choice. We are not - and we were promised one. The pros and cons of handing over the reigns to Brussels do need to be explored, in the context of a referendum. The petting obfuscation of "it is not a constitution, it is a treaty" is disgraceful. Were that the case, the government would nto have refused to publish a line-by-line comparison. We've been lied to, and the government needs to be removed for it.

Nick Beard, Seattle, US (ex-UK)

Referenda are not part of they way we have (except once) governed this country and should not become a way of doing so.
Gary Hyams, Chigwell, Essex

On the contrary Gary, Nu Labour have held more referendums than any other Goverment. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all had devolution referendums. The North East Regional Assembly had a referendum. The mayor of Hartlepool and Doncaster had a referendum.

This Government has held more referendums than anyone else.

The only referendums they won't hold are the ones Britain wants - the Euro and the constituion (ie the ones labour can't win).

Mark, Sheffield, England

What good will it be to await an election if the Lisbon Treaty is by then irreversible?

Peter York, Tonbridge, Kent

It's a bit rich for Richard of Plymouth to "really get angry when someone in America has a view on how we should run our business";paricularly someone who declares his love for our country- when our press, TV and radio is awash, 24/7 ,with people with extremely strong views on how America should run its business.

sandy, ayrshire,

I do not believe we are a referendum type nation, but I simply can not understand the thinking of those whe are trying to convince the rest of us that being a member of the E.U. is so right for us. The benefits of it so far have been social collapse in parts of britain, massive amounts of money going out of britain and sleaze verging on corruption. Tension and mistrust between cultures and religions. Our legal system is almost at the point of failing. With all this in mind will someone tell me why we should not have a referendum, and what benefits do we get that even equal the massive cost of being a member.

Tiny, Birmingham, England

From the point of view of the British public, can anyone genuinely name their Eu mp, and do they have any idea what they actually do. I think for the most part the answer is NO!

It is my submission that this state of affairs is not democratic simply because the majority of people in this country have not voted for or have any understanding of this European Chimera, the machinations of this entity are so remote to the ordinary citizen that we have difficulty connecting in any meaningful way with it.

We have recently experienced a steady procession of deceits perpetrated by this shabby government both with Blair and Brown. Our own government it seems places no trust in its own people, little wonder then that the public holds current politics in such disdain.

JJ, coventry, UK

Regardless of how big the bag of silver is, no one has the right to sell my country and my children's birthright without asking me!

Carl McGuire, Leeds,

You claim that the Lisbon Treaty contains 95 oer cent of the Constitutional Treaty. That is certainly an exaggeration but even if it is true, it immediately destroys your own argument. There was a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on the Constitutional Treaty. There was no manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on something similar to the Constitutional Treaty in many respects but different in others. So please abandon this fruitless wailing for a referendum - you'll get your vote at the next election, which is the British way. And - you're a bit selective in quoting Ken Clarke! How about his clear-sighted view that most of the big problems facing Britain today - security, economic reform, climate change - can ONLY be solved as full members of the EU?

Mod, London,

Regardless of the benefits or otherwise of being in the European Union how can you put your trust in any organisation that cannot account for where your money has gone.The auditors have refused to sign of the accounts of the European Union for at least te last ten years so there is obviously fraud on a massive scale going on. . Are our politicians not concerned as to where the money of all the hard working people of this and other countries is going. Would any of us employ a company that was known to be defrauding it's customers.

Pat, paris, france

I really get angry when someone in America has a view on how we should run our business. For Perry, who obviously knows little, we are already IN the EU and long may we continue to be in it, just to prevent us from becoming more allied to the US!

Richard, Plymouth,

We seemed to have jumped an argument here.

Referenda are not part of they way we have (except once) governed this country and should not become a way of doing so.

If the voters don't like what's going on, they can vote in a new Government at the next General Election. The Conservative Party are getting a bit desperate in trying to rely a referendum to reverse Labour policy. Better for them to set out their agenda clearly to the electorate and get a majority at the next General Election.

Gary Hyams, Chigwell, Essex

Can someone please tell me where I can get a list of the MPs who voted for this dreadful betrayal of the British people? I for one will do everything in my power to ensure that their careers in politics - or any other form of public service - are now over.

Scot Richards, London,

Having only this weekend stumbled upon this debate I have a great concern for "Great" Briton and her Sovereignty. I have always thought that you "already" have a Union by having long declared yourselves the "United Kingdom". Why wish to join a small group of self-serving power hungry elitists who's only goal is to dominate the people and elevate themselves. I love my Country and do not wish to become a part of anyone elses idea of a "Global Partnership" we do better taking care of our own. Even though I am an American I also love Briton, Mrs. Thatcher I thought would make a great neighbor and would have loved to have a cup of Earl Grey tea with her. Please England, resist the thought of losing your Sovereignty by joining the EU or agreeing to a deceptive "Treaty" ...the "Bulldog" would never have considered it.

Perry Vellenga, Denver, U

Don't forget CONFUSION & BOREDOM !!!

Ian Payne, WALSALL,