Dear All

My question stands. From whom has Thaye Dorje received his transmission of the precious teachings of the Karma Kagyu lineage. If this interests you then please read back through the thread of this discussion.

robert, cornwall,

What jack says is not entirely true, nto at all 99.9%, that is certainly false. Even if HHDL recognize him, he has no authority over Karma Kagyu lineage affairs. Some Tibetan people have blind faith, but nevertheless the Dharma activity of the Karmapa has spread to the west and will continue to spread around the globe.

Karmapa Chenno

Lex, UK,

What a blessing for the planet, and very much needed in these times. Even if you do not agree with him being 'your choice' you may still see the good that will arise out of the dharma devotion he will inspire for decades to come.

Guido, La Linea,

dear jack, yes, but are tibetans free ?
and some westerners seem to close their eyes and not see facts..

Angelika, ULM, Germany

To all misleaded Westerners,
Orgyen Trinley Dorji is the Karmapa that 99.9% Tibetans recognize and which HH has recognized. This Thaye Dorjee
is not revered by Tibetans because HH has not recognized him.
HH is considered to be the most supreme authority by Tibetans.

Jack, Lon, UK

Dear Stever, I am sure you are aware of the 'Golden Rosary' which has preserved the integrity of the Kagyu teachings for around 800 years. The 16th Karmapa chose for himself four heart sons to whom he gave the full transmission of his understanding of the Dharma in accordance to the Kagyu tradition. These were:

HE Sharma, HE TAi Situ, HE Gyaltsab and HE Jamgon Kongtrul

His Holiness also appointed teachers whom he trusted to spread the essential meaning like Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Khenpo Tsultrim Rinpoche, Dr Akong rinpoche (to whom he entrusted the establishment of the first Kagyu Monastery in the west).

By this method a Lama could be sure that after his death his new incarnation would receive a pure lineage of teachings, without any distortions, as essentially, he had taught his own teachers.

One would assume that any reincarnate Karmapa would seek out these four hearts sons, as well as, as many of the lineage holders as possible, in order to preserve the precious teachings.

robert, cornwall,

I've met Karmapa on 16th June in Prague, Czech Republic, listened to his lecture and took refuge. The feeling of bliss that emerged cannot be described only by words. He's with no doubt a highly realized being. Karmapa and Ole Nydahl are my true dharma teachers, by heart!
KARMAPA CHENNO

Byg, Prague, Czech Republic, middle Europe

Hi Robert. First off, I am not qualified to recognise a re-incarnate Lama. After careful consideration, having read as much of the available literature on the debate and the actions of Lama's from both camps, I have concluded that Sharma Rinpoche conducted himself with integrity, openess and within the best interests of the Kagyu School. It is for this reason that I accept his judgement.

As a Dharma student I can only hope for authentic teachings which point to the nature of mind and the compassion of Lama's who transmit these teachings. Given these requirements I have some serious doubts that a re-incarnate sponsored by the Chinese State Government, a government that tried to destroy Buddhist teachings in Tibet, will have the necessary freedoms to preserve the authenticity of the teachings.

Again I cannot profess to understand the conditions that a re-incarnate like Karmapa might choose to seek out but would like to hear your suggestion on who you think it should be. Regards.

Steve Owen, Liverpool, UK

In respone to Boris Ashman who wrote 'The bond between Teacher and student in Vajrayana is of most importance, '
and to Steve Owen who wrote 'in the interest of preserving the integrity of the prescious teachings of the Kagyu so future generations can benefit,'

the question is posed:

In their opinion who would be the the primary teachers and lineage holders of the Kagyu tradition, that a reincarnate Karmapa should seek out in this lifetime?

robert, cornwall,

To Tenzin, respectfully :

I am not a Tibetan myself, yet I have been practicing Buddhist methods of Kagyu Lineage (of which Karmapa is the head) for little more than decade. I have many Tibetan friends and love them with all my heart - but, based on my own experience, meaning of Buddha's teachings transcends any ethnic or cultural conditions. For majority of Western practitioners Tibetan Buddhism is a spiritual practice, rather than Tibetan cultural phenomena. Dalai Lama is a great Tibetan leader, but for spiritual guidance I would choose those Lamas of my own Kagyu tradition, whom I trust with all my heart. The bond between Teacher and student in Vajrayana is of most importance, it is like bond between mother and son. To me, it seems a bit silly to let anyone but oneself to decide whom to trust and whom to see as his own mother :-) I learned about Urgyen Trinlay before I knew anything about Thaye Dorje, but it is latter whom my heart trusted. In any case | KARMAPA CHENNO |

Boris Ashman, New York, USA

In response to Robert's post I suggest reading all available literature on the debate and then deciding if there is no difference between the two candidates. Of course both have Buddha nature, as do all sentient beings. Keeping the political implications of a candidate put forward by the Chinese state (a state which denies the possibilty of re-incarnation I believe) to one side, in the interest of preserving the integrity of the prescious teachings of the Kagyu so future generations can benefit, then it is important that the genuine re-incarnate is recognised as Karmapa. Given the facts, I have great confidence H.H. Karmapa Thaye Dorje is the genuine re-incarnate as recognised by Sharma Rinpoche.

Of course I offer good wishes to the other candidate and only hope that his activity will benefit all beings and that he represents the teachings with honesty and dignity.

For a balanced view I recommend "Rogues In Robes", "Buddha's Not Smiling" and "The Dance of 17 Lives"

Steve Owen, Liverpool, UK

'Has there really been anything gained, stirring up passions for and against?'

In the ultimate analysis both Urgyen Tinlay Dorje and Thaye Dorje are perfectly pure Buddhas, therefore there is not the slightest difference between the two!!

robert lee, cornwall,

Thank you very much for this refreshing article about the 17th Karmapa Thaye Dorje! His visit to Europe is such a great opportunity for all who are interested in and open to what he has to offer. Due to his wonderful personality and modern style, he is very accessible to us Westerners.

Best wishes to all,

Annette Kräuchi, Bern, Switzerland

Many would say that the reason why Westerners are specifically drawn to the Tibetan schools of Buddhism is because the Tibetans preserved and cultivated deep mystical practices that mostly disappeared from Buddhism elsewhere.
These practices were able to survive and flourish in Tibet because until recent times, the environment was so challenging and the Tibetan economy so poor that much of Tibet, especially away from Lhasa, was governed quite lightly if at all.
The political freedoms we enjoy in the West provide the same opportunity to practice these teachings, which were rarely available in the pre-modern world, even in Buddhist countries.
I met the Karmapa at a truck stop on the Austrian-Hungarian border a few years back. He is very unassuming and hard-working.

Kevin Rooney, Salt Lake City,

I enjoyed reading about the Karmapa and I would like to thank the journalists at the Times for writing about him. I am a London-based Zen Buddhist monk, so I am not part of the Karmapa's Tibetan lineage. However, I am happy he has visited the UK and also that he is on Myspace. It is important for people to know that the Dalai Lama does not have spiritual juristication over the Kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, so who the Dalai Lama thinks is the Karmapa is not as important as many people in the West might imagine. Over time the reality of the situation will unfold and this process is happening already. There is no hurry.

Ritsudo Richard Morrissey, London, UK

Is it relevant WHO is speaking about breaking through all cultural and material differences, development of the mind and how to create compassion and loving kindness in a modern world ?

With all due respect, I would recommend to Mr. Meanwell and Mr. Tenzin to maybe reflect one more time about the simple but deep message of the article which lies far beyond any worldly politics.

Having met and listened to His Holiness myself, I have decided to follow his advice: trying to lead a life without too much self-interest, which creates so much more happiness than swirling around oneself all the time.

True meditation masters prove themselves by their activity and teachings.
By opening up towards the modern world in such a skillful way Thrinle Thaye Dorje has, in my opinion, effectively shown his realization and wisdom.

Thank you for this interesting article and looking forward to hear more about the acitivities of Karmapa hopefully soon.

best wishes around the world from Germany

David Bauke, Frankfurt / Main, Germany

Thank you for reporting about this extraordinary event!
It was wonderful and inspring to meet His Holiness Karmapa in London this weekend.
And I am eternally grateful that he stays away from politics - also Tibetan politics. His spiritual message of compassion and loving kindness is very engaging - nothing else indeed is needed.
And I am very grateful that His Holiness Thaye Dorje was recognised according to spiritual principles established centuries ago, and not by majority vote of not so well informed people with apparently mixed motivation.

Refering to previous responses, I think it is worth mentioning that, while the Dalai Lama is wonderful, he plays no role in the choice/recognition of the Karmapa, in the same way as the Archbishop of Canterbury has no role in chosing the Pope.
In fact, the lineage of the Karmapas started centuries before that of the Dalai Lama.

Best regards
Peter Malinowski, Liverpool UK

Peter Malinowski, Liverpool, UK

It has never ever been the Dalai Lamas job to choose the Karmapa.

Karl Jacob, munich, germany

Even Tibetans can be wrong. The disciples of the Tai Situpa and the other candidate were simply misled for political interests. Even the Dalai Lama is sometimes not free in the choice of his actions. With all respect to HH the Dalai Lama.

Gurme Dorje, Berlin , Germany

Dear Tenzin and David,

The Dalai Lama traditionally has no right and legitimation to interfer with issues regarding the Karma Kagyu Lineage His holiness, the 17th Karmapa Trinlay Thaye Dorje is the legitimate Karmapa and was found and recognized as the genuine Karmapa reincarnation by H.H. Kunzig Shamar Rinpoche, second to the Karmapa in the Karma Kagyu Lineage.

Mick Brown´s book contains a lot of mistakes and is badly researched. For more information on the Karmapa issue as well as Mick Brown´s book please visit:

http://www.karmapa-issue.org/

Kind regards,

Monika, Munich, Germany

It is true, the writer should have checked the fact, that there are two candidates claiming the title of the Karmapas. But he would then find out, that the Dalai Lamas choice of the incarnation is a political one and is confirmed by the chinese government, who is becauso of its communistic view denying that rebirth exists and splits the tibetans as much as they can.

And because a book was mentioned I would like to add then also "Rogues In Robes" by Tomek Lehnert and "Buddha's not smiling" by Eric D. Curren. Read this and you will feel how China betrays the Tibetans and that the Dalai Lamas government wich belongs to the gelugpa sect has a long tradition of supressing the other sects in tibet - also the Karma Kagu sect, where the Karmapas belong to.

So in the end the articel shows what the most westerners expect form buddhism: A free 17th Karmapa is able to travel, teach and give interviews in a free world. Exactly what the 16th Karmapa wanted his successor to do

Manfred K., Bavaria, Germany

Many thanks to the author for the fresh article. It reflects very well the modern style of 17th Karmapa Trinlay Thaye Dorje as I perceived it in several teachings and powerful inaugurations from him here in Europe.
To the other comments I can only say that a Karmapa always shows his qualities and perfection through his own work ... and Karmapa Trinlay Thaye Dorje very clearly does so.

You find more information about him and the history of the Karma Kagyu Linage at http://www.karmapa.org/

Ensel, Munich,

It is refreshing that a British newspaper has focussed on the diversity in Buddhism and the interesting personal qualities of the young Karmapa Thaye Dorje. It is a welcome break from reading the usual disturbing tales of tawdry Tibetan politics and the Chinese government's efforts to divide Tibetan culture from within..

Thank you

Dafydd Morriss, London, UK

Sorry to say but your reporter didn't do his homework. The person here called Thaye Dorje, is not the real Karmapa but a rival candidate who has never been acknowledged as the Karmapa by the Dalai Lama. A controversy has been raging about this for more than ten years. The real Karmapa is called Orgyen Trinley Dorje. He has been authenticated as the Karmapa by the Dalai Lama and accepted by all Tibetans and most Westerners as the true reincarnation. Unfortunately. he is under tight security in Dharmsala.and is not free to travel.
Mick Brown's excellent account, Karmapa, The Dance of 17 Lives (Bloomsbury ), tells the full story.

Norma Levine, KIngton, Hereford

Is it relevant WHO is speaking about breaking through all cultural and material differences, development of the mind and how to create compassion and loving kindness in a modern world ?

With all due respect, I would recommend to Mr. Meanwell and Mr. Tenzin to maybe reflect one more time about the simple but deep message of the article which lies far beyond any worldly politics.

Having met and listened to His Holiness myself, I have decided to follow his advice: trying to lead a life without too much self-interest, which creates so much more happiness than swirling around oneself all the time.

True meditation masters prove themselves by their activity and teachings.
By opening up towards the modern world in such a skillful way Thrinle Thaye Dorje has, in my opinion, effectively shown his realization and wisdom.

Thank you for this interesting article and looking forward to hear more about the activities of Karmapa hopefully soon.

best wishes around the world from Germany

David Bauke, Frankfurt / Main, Germany

Unfortunately the Dalai Lama is from a different lineage and doesn't really hold much weight in the argument. It's like the Conservatives in Britain choosing the new leader of the Labour party.
For those who don't know, facts are these. Since 1992, there has been a dispute in the Kagyu Lineage and as a result of this the lineage is presently in two camps. This arose after Chinese officials, in collaboration with high ranking Lamas in the Kagyu lineage, installed their own Karmapa candidate, Urgyen Trinley, in the traditional seat of the Karmapas in Tibet.
The issue has come to a head over the right to manage the seat of the Karmapas in India, Rumtek Monastery, in Sikkim. The case took 7 years to go through the whole of the Indian legal system to arrive at the Indian Supreme Court in 2004: it supported the validity of Thaye Dorje's administration.
"The Dance of 17 Lives" is a superb book. Also look at www.karmapa-issue.org and the excellent "Rogues in Robes" by Tomek Lehnhert.

Adam Penny, London, UK

It has never ever been the Dalai Lamas job to choose the Karmapa.

Karl Jacob, munich, germany

It has never ever been the Dalai Lamas job to choose the Karmapa.

Karl Jacob, munich, germany

Excellent, thank you for this clear and fresh article!

Ada Coendz-Pont, Geneva, Switzerland

Unfortunately the Dalai Lama is from a different lineage and doesn't really hold much weight in the arguement. It's like the Conservatives in Britain choosing the new leader of the Labour party.
For those who don't know, facts are these. Since 1992, there has been a dispute in the Kagyu Lineage and as a result of this the lineage is presently in two camps. This arose after Chinese officials, in collaboration with high ranking Lamas in the Kagyu lineage, installed their own Karmapa candidate, Urgyen Trinley, in the traditional seat of the Karmapas in Tibet.
The issue has come to a head over the right to manage the seat of the Karmapas in India, Rumtek Monestary, in Sikkim. The case took 7 years to go through the whole of the Indian legal system to arrive at the Indian Supreme Court in 2004: it supported the validity of Thaye Dorje' administration.
"The Dance of 17 Lives" is a superb book. Also look at www.karmapa-issue.org and the excellent "Rogues in Robes" by Tomek Lehnhert.

Adam Penny, London, UK

I was surprised that your article makes no reference to the fact that Trinlay Thaye Dorje is not recognised by many Tibetan Buddhists, including His Holiness the Dalai Lama, as the 17th Karmapa. The more widely accepted incarnation is that of Ogyen Trinley Dorje who was enthroned in 1992 and escaped from Tibet into India in January 2000.

For more on this see Mick Brown's "The Dance of 17 Lives" (Bloomsbury 2004) and in particular Chapter Eleven "A Rival Candidate".

David Meanwell, Sutton, Surrey, UK

I think teh writer should have done a little fact check before publishing this report. Majority of Tibetans, to whom this "Karmapa" claims to belong, doesnt accept him as the 17the Karmapa. At the least I expected the report to touch on this topic.

To many Tibetans like me, there is no doubt that the Dalai Lam's choice is the 17th reincarnation of Karmapa.

Best,

Tenzin, Dhasa, India