Joanna Sugden
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Vehement Atheist, Professor Richard Dawkins, ventured into enemy territory to take on religious fundamentalism last night.
Speaking in Birmingham Alabama, an established notch in the Bible Belt, Dawkins took on Christian apologist John Lennox in a 90 minute debate based on the claims in the best seller The God Delusion.
Professor Dawkins, whose Out campaign urges closet Atheists to profess their unbelief and combat religious fundamentalism, acknowledged that not all religious people “are bad” or “dangerous”. But he warned that once “unstable” or “violent” people are granted a platform of faith, “terrible things follow”.
Dr Lennox, author of God’s Undertaker: Has Science Buried God, accused Dawkins of “airbrushing out” the atrocities committed by Atheist regimes but said he was “ashamed” as a Christian of travesties committed in the name of Christianity such as the Crusades.
In an effort to silence his opponent, Professor Dawkins, who was he said “intensely frustrated” by the format of the evening, said Atheism did not motivate people to carry out terror. The men who “flew planes into various targets across America” on 9/11 were not “psychopaths” but “educated people who thought they were doing good” for their faith, he said.
The debate was sponsored by the Fixed Point Foundation, a Christian think-tank based in Birmingham Alabama.
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To Nat from Liverpool. Everything you say assumes your point to prove it, saying "Gods word is the truth, the bible is gods word, therefore what is in the bible is the truth. This is true 'delusion'. The bible is a fictional story written by falible men. People cant walk on water my friend!
Jason, Dublin, Ireland
There is more proof that Jesus exists rather than Julius Ceasar. The Bible is Gods word and he clearly says that his word is truth. The fact that the Bible is Gods word and that it speaks about the 2nd comming of Christ means that this second comming will happen. no one knows when so we must repent.
Nat, Liverpool, England
"he states that it is highly improbable that God exists. Is he then not wholly convinced of the non existence of God? "
In science, one can never be 100% sure of something. It has been the accepted conduct in the scientific community that concepts are constantly being refined by new data.
Khoa, Saigon, Vietnam
I read The God Delusion with interest. I had thought R.D. was an out and out atheist, however, he puts
himself sixth in a list of seven levels of belief. Also
he states that it is highly improbable that God exists. Is he then not wholly convinced of the non existence of God?
Fran: London
Frances Flanagan, London, United Kingdom
Hitler was a Christain, just read Mein Kampf for the many references and remember the SS were required to be married in church. In China Mao was indeed an atheist however one of the reasons that population followed him without question was to do religon, their leaders had always been "gods".
Ray, Tunbridge Wells, UK
Being a great fan of Richard Dawkins, I would have liked to have read more about this debate and the arguments on both sides. The God Delusion is one of my favourite books and whilst I have huge respect for people with faith, I think science is advancing where religion is failing.
Julia, Teesside,
I have seen Mr Dawkins interviewed and he is definitely not as smart or knowledgeable as perceives himself. He sees himself as an intellectual, and in this he is right. I recommend the reader to look up what T Sowell and Schumpeter have to say in defining this term.
Desmond Taylor, Houston, USA TX
Egoists will dress up in whatever garb they see fit to gain control of others. Sometimes it is theocratic 'faith', sometimes it is political - all the same in fact.
For Priests and dictators - all is power.
Religion is really superstition given authority, by the powerful who manipulate it.
C Smith, Norwich, UK
In response to Jerry Carroll; is the only you dont kill the fear that you will be sent to hell? I can live without the fear of God, be a good person and live according to the laws of society. For intelligent, mature, well-balanced people there is just no need for a God.
Richard Hayes, Manchester,
Christians and atheists have a lot in common. There are lots of Gods Christians don't believe in - the Gods of ancient Greece and Rome, Pagan deities like Thor and Odin, the spirits of the Native Americans religion - the list is long . As an atheist I just disbelieve one more God than them.
Alan Trent, London,
Atheist and pagans killed far more people in the 20th century alone than in all the centuries of Christianity or any other religion or all of them combined. When you're relieved of the necessity of answering to any higher power, or think you are, anything goes.
Jerry Carroll, Hot Springs Village, USA
I believe that science has the answers, and that religion has the faith.
However, the answers are found by experiment and being able to junk the last experiment if a better method is found.
There is no questioning of religious dogma. Only faith that what was written 2000 yrs ago is true. Yeah!!
john, preston lancs, gb
Prof Dawkins asks how professing Christians can deny Genesis & Adam and Eve for instance. He asks how they can profess salvation, on the basis of a Christ who died for the sins of an allegorical Adam ? I believe in Genesis - for the very reasons given by Prof Dawkins ! Not to is nonsense !
Roy Grove, Exeter, UK
As a famous scientist says, " There will always be good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things, but for good people to do evil things, it takes religion". alan.
alan frankcom, solihull, england
Religion (and I mean all Religions) will always cause friction, divide people and nations whilst, the children of the religous are indoctinated into their parents religion. They are often not allowed to test their religion against anything else and certainly not allowed to go against it. If they do then they may well be banished from their family and their community.
This fundamentalist and closed approach, combined with what seems to be an increasing intolence of any other mainstream religion, will ensure that the World will have more borders, barriers and strife for many many generations to come.
Which is surprising considering that most religious people seem to believe that they are more accepting, welcoming, righteous etc. because of their religion. I have met many religious people who are more interested in themselves in their pursuit of God than in their fellow man (or woman of course). They use region as a tool to safeguard themselves now and in the afterlife.
Martin, London,
I note in all these comments that no-one seems to believe in the Devil. Whom Jesus said was the "father of Lies" and who is by nature is the "father of us all"- being sinners by nature. We believe lies more easilly than the truth. The Bible says that the Devil has "blinded the minds of those who dont believe. First lie he tells them is that He (the devil) doesnt exist.
How anyone can read and study Romans chs 1-8 in the Bible and not believe staggers me. Ch 1-2 the Bad news Ch 3 The good news (Gospel). Ch 5-8 Believieng and living as a christian.
The Bible is very clear in its revelation of God, and equally clear about the Existance, character and purposes of the Devil.
Why God allows the existence of evil is confirmation of the fact that God's wisdom is higher than even Richard Dawkins wisdon i.e. as the heavens are above the earth. .
Finally,If God was a God of our own making, we would certainly not manufacture a HOLY God who hated what we seem to like doing most
Gordon Kayes, Penrith, England
Napoleon, who was an atheist, freed the Jews who were in Ghettos for hundreds of years in Italy. He gave them back their civil rights and pushed the church which had rule over all of Italy to Vatican city. There are too many atrocities committed in the name of god throughout history to even count.
maybe Hitler and Stalin were atheists but sociopaths will use anything to rationalize their deeds. god or no god.
My grandfather was an atheist and a pedophile. But think of all the priests that are/were. What a person believes doesn't dictate what kind of person they are that is handled by their conscience. Unfortunately, some people are born without one.
My favorite Napoleon quote " The idea of God is useful for the rich, it keeps the poor from killing us"
thanks
frank, Nashville, Tennessee
The same arguments always come up again and again whenever athiesm is mentioned on this website. It's a matter of debate whether Hitler was or was not an atheist, so to blame atheists for the Holocaust is flawed to begin with. He was also a vegetarian, why don't we blame the Third Reich on that? Many crimes have been perpetrated overtly in the name of religion; where there is religion involved, we should always expect the next Spanish Inquisition. Religions thrive on the suppression of the views of the 'heretics', so kudos to Dawkins for trying to bring those views to as wide an audience as possible.
Sophie, Liverpool,
In the old days, people were always trying to prove the existence of 'God'. The Jesuits, I believe, were particularly good at this and, as I understood it, I would be able to do it as well if I had sufficient intellect.
Well, it seems it was all hoodwink because no-one, these days, tries to prove the existence any more. Now it's all down to 'blind faith', for which you can read; 'indoctrination by people who were equally indoctrinated before them'. Although I claimed to be an aetheist when I was 20, it took me another 40 years before I finally shook off the indoctrination I got from my Jesuit educators; 'Give us the boy and we'll give you the man', they say don't they? I should sue.
The good news is that I'm feeling much better since I finally got over my delusions, and thank God for that. Yes - I still say it. It's just a habit.
John C Cork, ex Liverpool
john Cullen, Cork (ex Liverpool), Ireland
Dawkins would point out that the Soviet regime didn't persecute the religious for the same of Atheism; they persecuted the religious for the sake of Communism, which saw religion (and particularly Organized Religion) as an ideological rival that encouraged traditionalism in societies.
Brett, Salt Lake City, UT, USA
A lot of you who have a 'faith' seem to be blinded by this to simple logic and argument - religion I suppose is a source of 'dumbing' down catering for the masses to keep the theocrats in power. You seem to miss the points and arguments entirely - its not about proof, its about probability - fools - and as Dawkins has said, you are all athiests when it comes to comes to a 'God' that is not your own!
Stephen_R, Belfast,
Why has not Dawkins addressed the many non-Christian fundamentalists here in the UK, instead of Christian fundamentalists in the US?
gerry, exeter, england devon
I must congratulate RIchard Dawkins and atheistic comments and writings. It makes me to take my faith more seriously and read the Bible more. Every decade there will be a nitsche,bertrand russel, dan brown and dawkins attacking christianity but in the end it only makes it more refined and stronger. Crticisms has made us to exegete, defend and develop our faith and we will continue to do so in the future when another Dawkins arises
ricki, wolmol, australia
What amuses me about Dawkins is his self-image as a secular prophet, come at long last to save the world from its religious delusions. Bertrand Russell did the same thing a generation ago, but he did not establish an "atheist church" to propagate his philosophy, so Dawkins has to start again from scratch.
Edmund Burke, Kingston upon Thames, England
I find it enormously enlightening that it is more acceptable to the Bible crowd to be a terrorist than an atheist. Are you religious people so frightened of losing your manipulative power base? I find your tactics nothing short of thuggery. Personally, I am sick of it. Richard Dawkins is to be congratulated for speaking out and giving so many people the courage to do the same.
Kitty Clarke, Breckenridge, Colorado
It is a given that Christians oppose the ideas of atheism. But what do Christians say to those of other faiths?
ie. Muslim, Judaism, Buddhism, Hindu, Wicca, Astrology, etc.
And given whatever the response be, what stops those same people from applying the same logic against Christianity.
Any religion is not only incompatible with atheism, but the differences between each religion is hard to understand logically.
CR Smith, Calgary, Canada
I was at the debate. Dawkins' defense of aetheism appeared far more like a defense of dogmatic belief than which Lennox had to present. Dawkins' confidence in aetheism and their being now eternal God that has created the universe defies the balance of evidence in astrophysics that suggests that matter has a finite beginning. He admitted at the end that the non-existence of God is empirically unprovable. Agnosticism is far more defensible than aetheism, which he made to sound much like blind faith.
Cameron, Birmingham, AL, USA
Marx's Das Kapital is dedicated to Darwin. Marx is the intellectual force behind forming a somewhat coherent rational materialism.
The type of rational materialism which Dawkins represents is exactly the type of worldview which was responsible for the Leninist and Stalinist machine which systematically murdered 60 million people. A considerable number of which were killed as a result of holding immaterial beliefs, the exact kind of beliefs Dawkins will not tolerate.
Hitler killed Catholics as well as Jews. Dawkin's superficial reading of history claims that Hitler was a Catholic devote who never renounced his given religion. Hitler was an occultist who believed nothing like a coherent religion.
Dawkins wants to blame the actions of desperate politically motivated people on religion. Desperate politically motivated atheists have killed more people in the 20th century than Christians have killed in the entire history of the world (and by an order of magnitude).
Michael, Fairfax,
The ultimate question as to why the universe exists is unanswerable by science. One of the myths prone to atheists is that religion is a science substitute.
sj, Baltimore, MD /USA
Mark -
It is not just religion that is in the dock but any dogmatic belief that is beyond criticism. Religion is, however, by far the most significant in the world today, since Marxism and Maoism and the other -isms have faded away.
What is essential is that people do not base actions on beliefs that they cannot support with evidence and are unwilling to defend against rational criticism.
- David
David Pollock, London,
Mark, that has everything to do with communism and nothing to do with atheism.
Michael, Seattle, WA, USA
I guess Dawkins forgets the millions killed by atheist Stalin? Or Atheist China? Everywhere Atheisim has taken hold, has led to oppression and death.
Mark Wise, Nashville, TN, USA
As an American by birth, and a deep-south Southerner by the grace of God, I'm firmly in the camp of Prof. Dawkins. He makes more sense than any of the religious mumbo-jumbo swilled about at the local Bible enclave.
As mankind has become able to answer questions about the universe, how it works and our place in it, the necessity of religion to explain the unknown and mystical has become less and less important; except to those without the requisite science education or a willingness to think for themselves, regardless of the stories they were told as children.
Scott, Durham, NC, USA
is this journalism? what kind of report is this? out of 90 minutes you gave us four lines...and mostly from Dawkins.
JB, DC, USA