Ruth Gledhill Religion Correspondent of The Times
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Secularists have condemned the leader of Britain's evangelicals as "unChristian" after he accused them of exhibiting intolerance of his religious views.
The National Secular Society has attacked Dr Joel Edwards, leader of the Evangelical Alliance, for remarks made at the end of an address by Chief Rabbi Dr Jonathan Sacks on the need for religious tolerance.
The row gives just one insight into the future difficulties of enforcing legislation against incitement to hatred against homosexuals and against incitement of religious hatred.
Dr Edwards, who has been appointed a commissioner on the newly-formed Equality and Human Rights Commission, has been accused of making a career out of "opposing equality for homosexuals". After news of his appointment emerged, secularists described his organisation as "one of the most homophobic in Britain, sheltering extreme anti-gay groups."
After the Chief Rabbi finished his address on the need for religious tolerance, Dr Edwards said: "These groups have perceived that I am so intolerant that they will not tolerate my place on a body negotiating the choppy waters of 21st century tolerance.
"The timing could not have been more perfect. These comments go right to the heart of the debate that we are launching with Dr Sacks’ address: where does religious conviction fit in to society’s balance of rights, responsibilities, diversity, equality and multi-culturalism? The secularist would of course answer 'it doesn’t', but this would be to betray history. As Dr Sacks has so brilliantly said, the roots of liberalism and the new found tolerance that went with it were in fact religiously inspired."
Only a few weeks ago the Evangelical Alliance was among the organisations that celebrated 360 years since the Putney Debates, which pioneered the liberal democratic settlement, where the Levellers called for equal rights irrespective of status or property, although not gender. Dr Edwards said: "It was to Genesis and the Gospels that they turned to justify their demands. "
And some of the Levellers' prayer meetings lasted for five hours, which in the Jamaican Pentecostalism from which Dr Edwards has emerged would be referred to as The Preamble.
Dr Edwards said: "To remove religious conviction from the public square is as sensible as removing the engines from an aircraft in flight. For a while the plane may glide and to all extent seem fine, but before long the altimeter will only be headed in one direction, by which time it is too late to start remembering how it was you got airborne in the first place.
"A tolerance which calls for the removal of conviction is no tolerance at all. If modern day politics seeks to silence or exclude voices, be they religious, gay or atheist, then a key pillar of an open society will have been destroyed and we will be the poorer for it. It is our task in this debate to persuade society that tolerance is not the absence of conviction, or even of conversion. It is the absence of coercion. In a liberal democracy it is more intolerant to disallow religious views based on secular prejudice: after all, secularism is just another religious position."
Keith Porteus-Wood, of the National Secular Society, told The Times that Dr Edwards' remarks were not an accurate reflection of what is going on and accused him of being "unChristian" in his attack on secularism.
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It's not to do with 'thought police' but 'action police'.
It's becoming the action police because the Government are forcing laws which go against conscience. Tolerance Street only runs in one direction.
Bob, Brixham, UK
"No David, under the terms of the Goods and Services Act, you cannot refuse to serve people in your hotel based on their religious preferences, in the same way that Christian hotel owners are not allowed to refuse accommodation to a homosexual couple. The PC thought police have preveiled."
That's a good thing, right? If people are offering services to the public in a state regulated area then they ought to be doing so in an undiscriminatory way, whether the clients are Christian, Muslim, Irish, Black, homosexual, disabled, the elderly, or whatever. It's not to do with 'thought police' but 'action police'.
People can hold whatever thoughts they wish, like I do as an atheist about Christianity, but when I act on it in a regulated industry then I'm breaking the law and that seems right to me.
Besides, a true Christian wouldn't deny homosexuals a room in their hotel. They're expected to love the humanity of their fellow man and not to judge people outside their church.
David Jones, Loughborough, UK
No David, under the terms of the Goods and Services Act, you cannot refuse to serve people in your hotel based on their religious preferences, in the same way that Christian hotel owners are not allowed to refuse accommodation to a homosexual couple. The PC thought police have preveiled.
Bob, Brixham, UK
"Why should the rights of gay couples to adopt impinge on the rights of Christian adoption agencies to bar gay couples from using their service?"
As an atheist, would this give me the right to bar Christians and other religious people from, say, coming into my hotel?
David Jones, Loughborough, UK
As a member of the Evangelical Alliance Joel Edwards can have whatever views he chooses about homosexuality (and Evangelicals are divided on this as a visit to the Accepting Evangelicals website will show). However, as a member of the Equality and Human Rights Commission he will have to uphold the laws respecting the rights of gay and lesbian people.
I can't see any reason why he can't be committed to doing both - but only time will tell.
andrew holden, Oxford, UK
The current liberal society is caused by religion in the same way that the law is caused by murderers and thieves. It is a reaction against religion not a positive side effect. Please stop trying to portray religion as a solution to anything, it's not, it's a problem.
Colin, Cheshire,
Bob - could your argument not be turned on its head?
Why should the gay rights movement have the freedom to push its agenda on the rest of society when that agenda infringes the rights of those who do not agree with it? Why should the rights of gay couples to adopt impinge on the rights of Christian adoption agencies to bar gay couples from using their service? Why should the gay rights agenda infringe upon the rights of Christian foster carers who do not wish to push that agenda on to the children they care for?
The rule that 'my freedom stops where it impinges on your freedom' is clearly not an adequate measure to deal with such complex issues.
What has happened recently in the UK is that the State has decided that the rights of gay people are MORE important than the rights of Christians and other who do not agree with the gay agenda.
Andrew Brown, derby, UK
Good to see the mob howling for the blood of Christians again. How dare these Christian vermin express any dissent to the new dogma that nothing may be said about sodomy other than in tones of warmest approval? Let them either toe the line or be abused for 'intolerance', dragged into court at every opportunity, denied charitable status, and vilified for their Nazi tendencies -- every powerless and unpopular minority is Nazi, of course -- in every newspaper in the land.
Seriously, how is passing laws allowing pressure groups to persecute those who disagree with them anything but hateful and oppressive. We all know what the Christians believe. If this country really cannot tolerate Christians saying what every Englishman believed in 1950, then we are in deep trouble.
Enough of this ideological hate. No-one is interfering with gays. The same cannot be said about Christians, sadly.
Roger Pearse, Ipswich,
and make sure we also protect those whose religious beliefs include ripping out hearts of human sacrifices, beating their wives, stoning adulterers or prejudicing against certain ethnicities. ALL religious expression must be protected including discrimination against homosexuals. As mentioned, if we let go of our religious heritage we will descend in the moral chaos and societal disintegration that we see in the countries of Scandinavia and Japan where, according to some polls, the majority of people do no longer have a belief in the one true god(s) of their region, who are of course the source of all our morality.
Willian Clifford, Rome,
The Secular Society seems to think that Christians (and others whose morality does not fit with the current politically correct version) should not have the right to express their views, or have their views respresented on important national bodies. How intolerant! I thought that tolerance was about accepting others who had views different than your own, not forcing them to believe what you believe.
Andrew Brown, derby, UK
Does Dr Sacks really mean that we had a 'shared moral code' which is now gone? He's talking about shared ethics, surely?
As an atheist, I share many of my ethics with the religious but I've never believed in any of the gods the religious propose and so I don't share their moral codes. Afterall, the source of, and reason for, their moral codes is their various gods, not humanism.
We can arrive at similar ethics but from different sources. There are differences though, as debates about abortion, euthanasia, stem cell research, and homosexuality, to name a few, show very vividly.
This needs to be made very clear as I don't want to living under restrictions which I view as irrational by virtue of their religious source. In the reverse case, the religious have the choice to restrict themselves under a secular society but not others. That seems like a tolerant, diverse, and free situation to me.
David Jones, Loughborough, UK
Surely the very first thing that anyone learns about rights is that the freedom to act must be constrained before it infringes the freedom of others; "my right to swing my first stops at the end of your nose". Even the most evangelical of evangelicals would surely accept under most circumstances.
But when it comes to homosexuality there is a curious blindspot. Suddenly it is perfectly acceptable to recommend that others should not be allowed, for example, the freedom to marry, based on ones own "freedom" of religious conviction.
There are few other spheres and on few other topics where such a basic rule as this -- that my freedom does not include the freedom to impinge on your freedom -- could be so patently, willfully ignored. They may not consider themselves actively homophobic, but the very existence of this moral blindspot indicates a deeply entrenched prejudice; it's a homophobia so deep that groups like the Evangelical Alliance can't even see it in themselves.
Bob Churchill, Worcester, UK