The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, dismissed the Christmas story
of the Three Wise Men yesterday as nothing but “legend”.
There was scant evidence for the Magi, and none at all that there were three
of them, or that they were kings, he said. All the evidence that existed was
in Matthew’s Gospel. The Archbishop said: “Matthew’s Gospel doesn’t tell us
there were three of them, doesn’t tell us they were kings, doesn’t tell us
where they came from. It says they are astrologers, wise men, priests from
somewhere outside the Roman Empire, that’s all we’re really told.” Anything
else was legend. “It works quite well as legend,” the Archbishop said.
Further, there was no evidence that there were any oxen or asses in the
stable. The chances of any snow falling around the stable in Bethlehem were
“very unlikely”. And as for the star rising and then standing still: the
Archbishop pointed out that stars just don’t behave like that.
Although he believed in it himself, he advised that new Christians need not
fear that they had to leap over the “hurdle” of belief in the Virgin Birth
before they could be “signed up”. For good measure, he added, Jesus was
probably not born in December at all. “Christmas was when it was because it
fitted well with the winter festival.”
He said the Christmas cards that show the Virgin Mary cradling baby Jesus,
with the shepherds on one side and the Three Wise Men on the other, were
guilty of “conflation”.
But in spite of his scepticism about aspects of the Christmas story, as told
in infant nativity plays up and down the land, he denied that believing in
God was equivalent to believing in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy.
“The thing is, belief in Santa does not generate a moral code, it does not
generate art, it does not generate imagination. Belief in God is a bit
bigger than that,” the Archbishop said.
Dr Williams was speaking live on BBC Radio Five to the presenter Simon Mayo
when Ricky Gervais, star of The Office and a fellow guest,
challenged him about the intellectual credibility of the Christian faith.
He said he was committed to belief in the Virgin Birth “as part of what I have
inherited”. But belief in the Virgin Birth should not be a “hurdle” over
which new Christians had to jump before they were accepted.
He hinted that decades ago he was not “too fussed” with the literal truth of
the doctrine of the Virgin Birth. But as time went on, he developed a
“deeper sense” of what the Virgin Birth was all about. And he went on to do
a literary-critical analysis of the traditional Christmas card that
features, as often as not, a Virgin Mary cradling a baby Jesus wrapped in
swaddling clothes, with shepherds on one side, the Three Wise Men on the
other and oxen and asses all around. Sometimes the stable is depicted with
snow falling all around, and often with a bright star rising in the East.
Most of it, the Archbishop said, could not have happened like that.
One of the few things that almost everyone agreed on was that Jesus’s mother’s
name was Mary. That is in all the four Gospels. It was also pretty clear
that Jesus’s father was called Joseph.
Dr Williams was not saying anything that is not taught as a matter of course
in even the most conservative theological colleges. His supporters would
argue that it is a sign of a true man of faith that he can hold on to an
orthodox faith while permitting honest intellectual scrutiny of fundamental
biblical texts.
The Archbishop admitted that the Church’s present difficulties, with the
dispute over sexuality taking the Anglican Communion to the brink of schism,
were off-putting to outsiders. “They don’t want to know about the inside
politics of the Church, they want to know if God’s real, if they can be
forgiven, what sort of lifestyles matter more and they want to know, I
suppose, if their prayers are heard.”
Dr Williams’s views are strictly in line with orthodox Christian teaching. The
Archbishop is sticking to what the Bible actually says.
A special baby is the integral part of this tale
The essential part of the Christmas story is the baby. God came to us in human
form, as part of creation and absolutely integral to it. That is the heart
and essence of it. This is why the last reading at the service of Nine
Lessons and Carols held in churches throughout Britain at this time of year
is the first few verses of John’s Gospel, about the incarnation of the
“Word”. This culminates in that spine-chillingly wonderful declaration: “And
the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.” Without
that, Christmas would be a rather vague festival.
In carols we sing about a baby, sweet and mild, one that “no crying makes”.
This is wishful thinking, along with other parts of the story.
But some of it cannot be challenged, such as Mary, or in Greek, “Theotokos”,
literally “God-bearer”. Her willingness to be part of God’s plan is central.
There seems little doubt that Jesus was born in a stable. The Bible says
“outside the house”, and this was probably because the house was full. If it
was a stable, there could have been animals at the birth of Jesus. We are
also told that there were witnesses from the fields, shepherds taken by
surprise by the news from the angels, rushing down from the hillsides,
wondering in awe and then going back to their sheep, transformed by the
coming of the baby.
The Wise Men were witnesses of the opposite kind. They were careful,
calculating, educated men who think that they begin to discern God’s
imminent arrival and who blunder their way across the region until they find
what they think they’ve been seeking. They, too, go back transformed.
These are the really important bits of the story.
— The Rev John Jennings is a Church of England clergyman and adviser to the
Archbishop of Canterbury
All I can say is the Archbishop is picking and choosing which part of the Bible he is to believe. He is also, in my opinion, calling God a lier, if in fact that what the Bible says is true, that it is God breathed. If Matthew is telling a little white lie to embellish the story of the Saviors birth, then why should we suppose the rest is true?
Jeannie, Cameron Park, CA
Its high time, that people understand that Christmas is nothing to do with the birth of Christ, Its the birth day of the Roman god Mithra, in early church history Constantine I and Sylvester I bishop Rome. At the council of Nicaea in 325AD, all that they did was to change the name of their god Mithra,to Jesus, and kept all the rituals and customs that went with it.
Show me in the bible where it says that Jesus was born on 25th of December. God condemns the xmas tree as Abomination read Jer10:1-5; Christianity as kept all the traditions of a pagan religion called Mithra.
Mithra's birth and life is exactly the same as the story of Jesus, the religion of Mithra, out dates Christianity by 4000years. Christianity wears the clothes of Mithra unto this day.
Dr Mohammed Omar, London, United Kingdom
The three Wise Men nothing but legend? The Archbishop of Canterbury is a spoil sport. Why spoil people's fun? After all, all religion is but legend and superstition....
Peter Cressall, La Lucila, Argentina
These clergy have no business representing the Christian faith. They are purvayers of the Secular Socialist religion wrapped in the reassuring cloak and language of real Christianity. They are obviously in the "Christian" business for all the perks they still get in spite of their insisting upon shooting themselves in the foot. Fewer and fewer people buy the "I'm not religous, I'm spiritual" drivel.
I listened to Bishop Gene Robinson yesterday spend an hour & a half rationalizing, spinning & sweeking his way into believing that homosexuality is an ultra moral practice blessed by Jesus Christ himself (with back-ups from the Old Testiment). Which part of "abomination" don't these people understand? Karl Marx was right only he was addressing the wrong religion (his). God save us all from our leaders.
Ann Hanna, Chatsworth, California, USA
He said the Christmas cards that show the Virgin Mary cradling baby Jesus, with the shepherds on one side and the Three Wise Men on the other, were guilty of “conflationâ€.
Conflation is a a minor offence but one repeated by an ignorant media.Of course one could read the Bible and understand what it actually say.. The Bible is not a scientific record. Dr Williams is oblivious to this fact it seems.
Lee, Wellington, new zealand
On May 23rd in 1971 my life changed forever. While on my knees confessing my faith in Jesus as Lord a heavy weight left my back in a flash. The first 33 years of my life had been filled with religion hindering my experience of receiving Jesus, who Is Almighty God. The Holy Scriptures have been my food since God adopted me into His family. Afterwards He sent me to minister at a jail near my home where I saw HIm do miracles of healing, delivering and salvation. I know that true Christianity is not a religion but an intimate relationship with God through an abiding faith in His Only Begotten Son. If you want to know Him, go to the cross. There the Holy Spirit will convict you of sin and a need for a Saviour. Jesus will love you with the greatest love of all, Agape. Then go out and share your experience so others can come to know Him too. After 36 years of living in Christ I know He is Lord. Please read Matt: 25 carefully. He is coming soon for us who are born again of His Spirit.
Capt Ben Marler, Destin Florida,
What is this man doing as a minister much less an archbishop? If he doesn't believe such basic ideology perhaps he should find another profession.
Robert, New York, New York
yes all relgion is a myth and the christmas one is too
andrew walker, solihull, uk birmingham
' "Dr Williams was not saying anything that is not taught as a matter of course in even the most conservative theological colleges."
Perhaps in England, but not in Southern USA.'
(Joshua333, Houston suburb, Texas, USA)
Excuse me, but since when was the Southern USA thought of as anything other than a haven for Bible-thumping, simple folk, however sincere they might be? Fortunately, no one outside the US takes them seriously.
Jon Harvey, Winchester,
Archbish sez:
“The thing is, belief in Santa does not generate a moral code,"
Absolute nonsense:
I quote from the sacred texts:
"He's makin' a list,
Checkin' it twice;
Gonna find out who's naughty or nice.
Santa Claus is comin' to town
He knows when you are sleepin'
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been good or bad
So be good for goodness sake"
That seems like a stern moral code to me!
The Archbishop's words are an insult to the deeply held religious beliefs of all SantaClausists everywhere. I demand an apology or I'll throw a tantrum..
Tony Jackson, Cambridge, UK
The Roman Church now presents a beautiful front to the world, apologizing for her horrible cruelties; but she is unchanged. Every principle she had when she slaughtered millions of innocent Christians exists today."I saw one of his heads as it was wounded to dead, and its deadly wound was healed, and the world wondered after the beast" Rev.13:3(took place in 1798 Napoleon's army invaded the vatican and took the Pope into exile)Today, with over a billion members,Papal Rome is back, the wound is healing, and the Vatican's goal is world dominion.The Papacy is the apostacy of the latter times(2Thess.2:3,4)"The antichrist will speak great things and will ONCE AGAIN make war with the saints"(Rev.13:5-7) Martin Luther(Lutheran Church)Calvin,Knox(Presbyterian), Cranmer(Anglican), Williams(Baptist)Wesley(Methodist)all identified the papacy as the antichrist. Soon the papacy will gain control of protestant America. Who will you follow? church traditions? or Christ your Lord? Choose right!
delmar, delmar, California
It seems to me that many of the people making comments here clearly have not read the article. Surely, actually reading the article should be a prerequisite for commenting on it?
Martin, Newmarket, Suffolk
I wonder if the Archbishop thinks too much and believes too little. There are so many verses in the Bible that warns those who would teach the word of God (such as the Archbishop) that they will be held accountable to a higher standard by The Judge. (The thought alone should make him shudder at making such apostate statement. Has he even read the Bible?) Perhaps he rationalized himself out of those as well. Even from a worldly marketing point of view, a president of a company should be fired or step down if they no longer believe in the products or service of the organization. Archbishop Rowan should step down since he obviously doesn't believe what he is selling.
A. G., Los Angeles, California
"But in spite of his skepticism about aspects of the Christmas story..." - Rowan Williams is not being skeptical about the Christmas story - this is inaccurate. He's pointing out what the Gospels actually say and what we assume they say because of the way they are presented on Christmas cards and in nativity plays. This is not skepticism it's called accuracy and being precise and is typical of a scholar like Rowan Williams. His skill is in critical thinking - not communicating in an easy to understand manner. Unfortunately his intellectual commentary makes religion more serious, more complex and less sentimental than the comfortable imagery that people like at this time of year. Its the difference between difficult concepts that require us to think and the easy answers of kitsch - most people like the kitsch - just because its easy, safe and feelgood.
Stuart, Lancaster,
zeitgeistmovie.com has a really good explanation.
Job, yomama,
As for the Archbishop, he is human and allowed to backslide but not do it in such a way as to destroy our faith. I will say he speakes for himself. I should not judge others but i'm human and i say bringon a new archbishop who is upright and steadfast in the word. The Bible is the greatest book ever written as it is a map and manual to all that exists. Past present and future, the Bible tells all. persecuting christians wont make us stop believing in God rather strenghten us as was done with the desciples after the death of christ. We forget we are human and can't and don't know everything. We want to prove and disprove through science (we are like ants trying to explain deep sea diving). Sodom and gomorrah were destroed for a reason and that will be our fate in the end. I believe in God and this is my faith if you dont like it then keep walking. Nonbelivers ask for signs and wonders but it will be too late when you finally see it. Religion is btn me and my God, no one else. merry Xmas
Adegbola, London, England
go hear if u want to read what he actually said. It will sispel some of the poor accusations many of you are making
grim, Edenbridge, Kent
The "wisemen' were not really wise, they were astrologers or diviners.Their profession was, in fact, detestable to God, but, God used these vases of dishonor to honor Christ.The things they brought were precious and were probably used by Joseph and Mary when they fled to Egypt.As for the star, Satan was likely behind it, since it guided the Magi to Herod first which led to the massacre of untold number of babies under two years old.Satan wanted to kill Jesus but, Jehovah did not allow it. Also, the fact that Jesus was born in a manger, shows us that we have to be humble.
John, Montreal, Canada
The archbishop's denial that "believing in God was equivalent to believing in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy" is very understandable given that people have never been slaughtered in the name of either of the latter two.
paul
paul, london, uk
I have no quarrel with some of the comments of Mr. Williams which are not verified by Scripture. However, when it comes to Scripture, "let God be true, but every man a liar;" (Romans 3:4). Regarding the star that stood still, if God wanted to, He could have arranged stars to spell out and flash, “Merry Christmas!†over the place where Jesus was! This universe is here for the glory of God, not for the Archbishop of Canterbury!]
Although he believed in it himself, he advised that new Christians need not fear that they had to leap over the “hurdle†of belief in the Virgin Birth before they could be “signed upâ€. [Mr. Williams, if you believe Jesus is the Son of God as you claim, why take the side against the Word of God? Mary told the angel, Gabriel, “I know not a man.†Gabriel told Mary, “With God, nothing is impossible†(Luke 1:37). Apparently, Mr. Williams believes that anything beyond his weak belief is impossible for God!
Believe the Word! It is true!
Don Schuman, Ashland, Mississippi, USA
Why is he The Arch Bishop Of Canterbury?????
The Anglican church must be desperate for a " leader"
Don't judge the real church by his twaddle and confusion.
Churches are growing where the Living relevant, life changing
message of John 3:16 is proclaimed. Yes there ARE full churches where the is a full Gospel being shared and lived out . The Arch Bish needs a real relationship with Jesus Christ
Poor chap"! I feel really sorry for him. He ( and his followers need our prayers.
Thank God He sent Jesus to show us the way, not the a Bishop. Look at areal Bishop www.MichaelReidMinistries.org and see what God can do for you!! Have a really Christ centerd Christmas to you all
Bishop I may not agree with you but God loves you and so do we.
Dav
Dav, Notingham, UK
I'll bet the Fool of Canterbury believes that a woman can be a priest!
Richard , Lawrenceville, Georgia, USA
There is a huge difference between the Christian faith and celebrating Christmas, Christmas is NOT a Christian celebration.
It's a shame that those small number of Christians who accept Christmas for what it is, a pagan festival, are lumped in with the rest of the so called Christians who would worship at a festival which comes from the pagan festival celebrating the sun god Saturnalia.
Kelly, Scotland,
If he doesn't believe, why is he a Bishop again? Reminds me of the priest in one of the "Hellraiser" movies who also said it was all myth.... until he found out it wasn't.
David Powell, Ocean City, New Jersey, USA
I pity the Archbishop for his beliefs. He and his feelings are exactly why the Cathedrals in England are almost empty. He and his feelings are also the reasons I left the American Episcopal Church after being a lifelong member. I am comfortably a member of the Anglican Church where the Bible and those teachings are still held firmly in our hearts and souls. The Archbishop is yet another reason that whole Dioceses are leaving the American Episcopal Church. I feel sorry for those who not believe in the Blessed Birth because our time on this earth is drawing nigh with the mess this world is in.
Virginia Creasy, Scottsville, VA, USA
You can debate about this as has been done for centuries, or you can admit that all of this comes down to one thing.....FAITH. I can tell you that I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Saviour off all mankind. The Spirit has whispered this to my soul and I know it to be true. The unbeliever want's proof. He does not believe or understand such words as "Faith" or "Spirit". I cannot explain these words to him in an understandable way, any more than he can explain to me in words what salt tastes like, assuming I had never before tasted salt. Spiritually speaking I have tasted salt. And just because you have not, please do not try to tell me and other believers that we cannot possibly know and believe to be true that which they have rejected as a myth.
Kevin Jepperson, Orem, Utah, USA
“The thing is, belief in Santa does not generate a moral code, it does not generate art, it does not generate imagination. Belief in God is a bit bigger than that,†the Archbishop said."
Actually, for small children, believing in Santa Claus kinda DOES generate a moral code - a microcosm of the same psychology involved in adherence to, for example, biblical law. Santa gives you presents if you're good - Jeebus lets you play at his house after you die, if you're good...
Greg, Northampton, UK
Could he be geting to much fress air???
Jon Flemming, Albany, New York USA
I read an author's quote somewhere about Pope Leo X who lived in the 1500's. "It has served us well, this myth of Christ."
Diane Miller, Williamstown, WV
These days we have virgin births every day but it took a couple of thousands years before we worked out how to make test tube babies. Surely this would not have been too difficult for the creator of the universe?
K Beer, Abingdon, UK
The bible is the greatest work of fiction ever written
Matt, Egham,
Interesting headline and initial paragraph, but not exactly supported by the rest of the article. The archbishop saying, "it works quite well as legend" in the context of all the fluff that has been added to the core message of the bible is hardly a denial of faith.
K Beer, Abingdon, UK
The Anglican Church takes another step away form the truth.
Daniel, Boulder, CO
I don't see what the fuss is about. All Dr Williams was doing was pointing out what is actually in the Bible and what isn't. What isn't in the Bible is simply legend. No suggestion anywhere of changing what is written there, or subverting the "Word".
Martin Evans, Newmarket, Suffolk
Dr Rowan Williams is right. Jezus also is nothing more than a legend, there are no contemporary accounts of his life. However, this does not make any difference for the christian teachings.
D. Crombag, Nimeguen, The Netherlands
I agree that the story is not a historical fact. However, I also agree with Christian fundamentalists who say that you cannot reinterpret the Bible and still consider yourself a Christian. Picking and choosing what to believe and what not to believe (i.e. moderate Christianity) makes little sense.
If it's so easy to reject the Virgin Birth, how much easier would it be to take the next step and reject the Resurrection?
Anonymous, Texas,
You don't have to believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian? That's like saying, "you don't have to believe that the Bible is God's word." Is this man a Christian?
Dr Williams said, "He said he was committed to belief in the Virgin Birth “as part of what I have inheritedâ€. But belief in the Virgin Birth should not be a “hurdle†over which new Christians had to jump before they were accepted. "
Ryan, Irvine,
This man's stock in trade is the language of the gloomy and negative. A leader in his position should inspire and stimulate if he is to grow the church.Images of colour and tradition endow it with life and excitement.Why does he drag us through his spiritual greyness into a place of depression and bleakness. We need a leader to fire the life back into religion with words to match the story that has inspired two thousand years of history. Give me the Archbishop of York any day with his strong and vivid beliefs that we can all join in with in their excitement. Bring this man to the top job and we could see a rebirth of the church
Nigel, Wimbledon, UK
Ro, Cheltenham. Jesus, as a first name, is very common in South America today. Are you suggesting that only one person, ever, has been called Jesus?
David Leslie, Perth, Scotland
"Dr Williams was not saying anything that is not taught as a matter of course in even the most conservative theological colleges."
Perhaps in England, but not in Southern USA.
Tassos, Athens, Greece
"Discussions between believers and non-believers are utterly pointless because there is no set of shared premises that both accept and that can act as the basis of these discussions."
Agreed; and Dr. Williams appears to be more of a non-believer than a believer. This unfortunately appears to be the norm with the Church of England and the U.S. version of The Episcopal Church.
Joshua333, Houston (suburb), Texas, USA
For those who have faith in God, pick up a Bible, instead of just leaving it set to gather dust, and read, then read again.. study it. Taking somebody's word for it or going along with traditions just because family has through the years, is not the thing to do. The truth is there.. if you believe. For those who don't believe though...oh wait...only until something has either physically or emotionally gripped you, do you request prayer or beg for God to help you! ha... Why do so many non-believers use his name in vain?! "Wise Men".. it doesn't say there were three... Jesus being born on december 25th.. doesn't say that either. Don't add and don't take away. Baptizing saves! 'Acts2:38, 1 peter 3:21, Acts 22:16 etc...
Sylvia, Beckley, WV
As a Christian Orthodox, I do find the Archbishop's comments rather apologetic and self-defeating.. As another reader rightly puts it, self-conscious Christians understand the symbolism of the Nativity story. Surely, a story that has been altered in some parts to make it more attractive...This discussion i am afraid misses the point, and will disorientate many..Is he a spiritual leader seeking to strengthen the lax christian reflexes of modern society and the young generations? Or does he indulge in theological theories in the midst of Christmas season? All people have something to be taught from the true meaning of Christmas...Please, let us not forget that and drift away...Merry Christmas to all.
Tassos, Athens, Greece
Discussions between believers and non-believers are utterly pointless because there is no set of shared premises that both accept and that can act as the basis of these discussions. Both groups must be absolutists because to move even an inch in the other's direction inevitably leads to the unravelling of their own position.
Jos Visser, Zurich, Switzerland
Mark Allen,
The Bible is not 'junk'. It spreads a very good message as to how we should live our lives. Why else would it have been written?
I think that one of the main reasons that fewer people believe the story now is that it's now a long time since it was written. If people believed it then, then there must have been truth in it.
Chris, Epsom,
It's obvious here of what often is occurring in the church today, man looking at God like a man. He has not has his eyes opened to the understanding of the Holy Spirit; the power of the living Christ in his life, so he uses his man-made credentials to explain what he's created in his mind with soulish desires that haven't been dealt with by the power of God. The Scriptures aren't a religion, they are the actual spoken Words of God, and they haven't halted either! God is alive now, so He continues to speak now. Those that look at His Words as a comparison to worldy ways of thinking have not the living God, our Lord, living in them...only their own thoughts geared by pompous motives to make themselves look superior to the only One Creator and Father of us, the chosen ones that abide in Him and by His will because we hear His voice speaking to us. Only the ones that know Him intimately will make it through in the end. His will is already being done on earth as it is in Heaven.
jessica, raleigh,
Is it any wonder that there are more mosques in Great Islamic Britain than churches?
I have found many Anglican deacons, pastor and other clerics so poorly educated in the Scripture, even King James, as to be worthless as teachers or leaders. I disputed them in Cambridge a number of years ago.
Sorry, Archbishop. Perhaps you might consider naming your firstborn Mohammad, like so many of your other brainless countrymen.
I guess England peaked about 1890.
John, Los Alamos , NM USA
Why is it that Christians take it as fact that non-believers have no moral values ? Is it because they're too weak to have values other than those imposed by their religion.
Of course you can have moral values without being a believer. To think otherwise is ridiculouse. Atheists and other non-believers agree that society runs better if murder, theft, etc are illegal.
But is the reverse true ?
How many people claim to be believers in the Christian God, yet support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan ?
Conveniently overlooked the "thou shalt NOT kill" commandment have we ?
As to "a lot of people believe it, so it must be true" - very, very weak. Go back a few hundred years and 99 per cent of the population thought the earth was flat. Not so, and it wasn't changed by the number believing in it.
Clive, Epsom, England
It is surely wellknown among intelligent Christians by now that Jesus was born probably during the Fall Feasts of the Bible.
The narrative is clear that the "wise men" or astrologers (studiers of the heavens, not your present-day hoaxers), came "from the east". Scholars believe they were possibly Jews descended from those taken to Babylon during the captivity.
Matthew tells us that "upon entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother." A house is not where He was born. By the time they came He must have been nearly two.
In fact, the "stable" was very likely a sukkah, a booth which God commanded the Jews to build every year at the Feast of Tabernacles, one of the Fall Feasts. They are to live in the sukkah for a week, a reminder of their journey from Egypt. John's gospel tells us that Jesus "tabernacled" among us.
As far as "Christmas" goes, that was a midwinter pagan fest latched onto by Christians who wanted nothing more to do with the Biblical Feasts of the LORD.
Emmie, Cape Town,
Here's a question for all you religious types ?
Which religion should one follow ?
Q: the oldest one?
A: maybe, but that's not Christianity
Q: the newest one ?
A: maybe, but that's not Christianity
Q: the one with the most believers ?
A: maybe, but that's not Christianity
Q: the one with the most Gods ?
A: maybe, but that's not Christianity
However you look at it, the Christian story is exactly that - one story amongst many. Nothing unique about it.
Clive, Epsom, England
The Archbishop says belief in Santa does not generate a moral code, art or imagination. It generates all 3 in my children, albeit for only one week of the year. I agree with everyhting else he says, however.
Paul Stonelake, Ann Arbor, USA, MI
A "woolly minded" question: Does the Archbishop also say openly during a Islamic holidays that Mohammad's overnight ride on a flying horse from Saudi Arabia to Jerusalem was a "legend that works quite well?" Or does the Archbishop have more respect for Islam than he has for his own faith?
To Plato in York: a large part of humanity does not believe in the Holocaust - or in Stalin's Ukraine famine - despite the "facts". Atheism is not the blissful belief in nothing, but the vulnerability to a belief in anything. I find it much easier to believe in Virgin Birth and Resurrection, than in the long term viability of socialism and atheism. Where are the atheists defending the British identity? The Sovits in WWII defended against the Nazis, but the Soviets did not welcome unlimited numbers of Germans between the wars. The most common name for baby boys in the USSR was not "Adolph." In the UK today it is Mohammad. Catholics, not atheists, prevailed in Vienna and Tours.
Woolly, Engadine, USA
As an American Protestant, I don't condone all that the Archbishop says, but he is mostly right here. We have these wonderful images of the manger scene that we have created throughout the years. All the Archbishop did was go back to Scripture, as he was challenged to do, and rightly divide fact from fiction. Not that there is anything wrong with our present-day manger scene, but it just isn't true to the historical texts of the Bible. I commend him for his expository investigation but warn him to take the Virgin Birth a bit more seriously. If the Virgin Birth wasn't too important, Jesus would have been born with a "sin nature" like us all. Thankfully, he was not! Merry Christmas everyone!
Clayton Dyas, Rosamond, California
It is no real mystery that Christmas is a Holiday that came from Pegan backgrounds (just read about it in any Encylopedia). If you are Christian you treasure EVERY word written in the Bible and dismiss manmade holidays and doctrins. We are tought from a early age not to lie and we are told "thou shalt not lie". That is all Christmas is, a manmade lie. Not one word of it is in the Bible. Come on, A fat man in a red suit, that flys in the air with flying raindeer?!! Jesus wasn't even born in December. Open your eyes and think for your self. If your Church teachs these things just think of all the other ways you are being mislead.
Christine , Orlando, florida
“belief in Santa does not generate a moral code, it does not generate art, it does not generate imagination†the Archbishop said.
Wrong, belief in santa explicitly does all those things.
"Be good or you won't get any toys" is a moral code if anything is. I see santa claus in art all around me, and the various legends surrounding santa are a testament to the imagination the myth generates.
dave, DFW, Texas
I think everybody knows that the Nativity scene is simply a representation (the wise men didn't get there for a couple of years). But to deny the Virgin Birth? Sounds like the good reverend needs to tender his resignation and call it a day. He's just disqualified himself as the leader of his church. Don't think for a second that if the Pope did this, the College of Cardinals wouldn't have the Italian equivalent of a U-Haul truck backed up to the Vatican within the hour, and he'd be cleaning out his desk post haste. The president of the Southern Baptist Convention would be out on his ear in a New York minute for saying something like this.
That bagpipe music from the Arab Boy Scout troop must have messed up his mind. :-)
Dave, Marietta, GA
There is much more evidence for the Biblical record than against it. It boils down to whether or not we have to answer for our sins. The purpose of the Bible is to introduce us to a Holy God and to show us that we are not, also to teach us the truth of right verses wrong(morality). We have all done wrong(sinned). If science can explain away God then we would finally be free to live without regard or concern for right and wrong or the well being of our fellow man(immorality). If not then we will ultimately have to concern ourselves with the ugly we have done and said. I can't do, say, or pay for all the ugly I have introduced into this world. So I need the Christ child, born of a virgin, living a sinless life as the God man, and the cross of Calvary with my Savior Jesus Christ hung on it to pay my debt. I also need the empty tomb as my hope for eternal life with Him. I can't prove He exists, and you can't prove He doesn't. As for me and my house, we choose to believe! Merry CHRISTmas!
Alan Lambeth, Las Cruces, New Mexico
Such predictable woolly minded thought fromt the US bible belt where nearly every one believes every word of the bible is fact!!
A fact is something which can be tested and proved or disproved. .Saying there is no more proof for Julius Caesar than for Jesus is just pathetic. The Romans were great record keepers and had many historians. The so called facts about Jesus were not set down until at least 30 years after his death and the four gosples do not even agree. One would think someone so important would have had more written about him. By the way where was he for the first 30 years?
However the refreshing thing is that noone here is howling for the gentleman to be killed and offering a reward for the murder.
Take note please you followers of Islam
plato, york, uk
If the Archbishop of Canterbury dismisses the story of the Three Wise Men as nothing but legend - what about ALL other legends, stories and miracles that form the spiritual legacy of Christianity?
Our we to believe that Christopher Hitchens is 100% right? Or Sam Harris, for that matter?
All in all, a nice Xmas present!
Jaysonrex, Toronto,
A message to Mike from Brighton - wake up and smell the coffee you sad man. You must be fun to be around on Christmas day.
alan kinsey, Newcastle upon Tyne,
The Bible clearly states that every word of not just parts but every word is Truth. Just because someone wants to put a spin on it to make others filled more inclined to believe in God is their problem and God will deal with them. False teachers or prophets have been since the beginning of creation and are dealt with by God if not in this life in the next one to come. I would never believe anything or anyone who seeks to rewrite any part of the Word.
Barbara A. Mohler, south carolina,
People who advocate that any portion of the Bible is fiction or elaborated semi truth are nothing but false teachers. The Bible clearly states that they will be dealt with if not now in God's time. This person is wrong and should be removed from the church.
Barbara A. Mohler, south carolina, United States
I would just like to say to David Leslie of Perth, christ means 'the anointed' or 'messiah'. Are you really suggesting that there may have been 3000 Jesus's all considered to be the anointed messiah?
Ro, Cheltenham,
Message to the Archbishop...A true man of faith holds on to his faith without question, regardless of any honest, intellectual, scrutiny of fundamental biblical texts. The mind of man simply is not at all capable of comprehending the ways of God.
Gene Carter, Reading, Pennsylvania, USA
It really is rather bizarre that a mistranslation of a word that is cognate with maid, i.e. a young woman, to a word that is cognate with maiden, which is ambiguous and may mean young woman OR virgin, has become such a crux for one of the worlds major belief systems. I can't really see how one can have a "deeper" understanding of an error in transcription. Ho hum.
Kidd Garrett, Bristol, UK
To Ryan of Edmonton: the balance of current research is that Jesus of Nazareth did exist as an historical figure. At least, that's what Wikipaedia says. Anyway, why would so many of his early followers die for something/one they'd made up?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Giles Bradley, Exeter, UK
Chris wrote: "It has been scientifically proven that jesus did exist ....Additionally the bible had stood the test fo time and has proven to be correct geographically, archiologically and factually."
Oh please Chris. Anyone with an ounce of honest objectivity can see that the bible is chock full of inaccuracies and internal inconsistancies. The fact that you personally take some comfort from believeing the story it tells has absolutely no bearing on the truth of the ludicrous claims it makes.
As for the Archbishop, if he accepts that some stories from his favourite myth are untrue, can he explain how he decides which are true and which aren't, other than by wishful thinking.
Its incredibly depressing to see otherwise normal people still taken in by this junk in the the 21st century.
Mark Allen, Nottingham,
Hi,
I live in Hull, Massachusetts and YES, A STAR can act lik ethat. We had a snow storm jast weekend and on Sunday night there was a bright twinkling star int he sky after all of the clouds cleared. Prior to that. we had lost electricity. The star was only there for that one night. The only reason I was awake was because of losing electricity and saw the star. Don't ever doubt what GOD can do!!!!!!!
The start was as bright as could be and comes every year around Christmas time. Some call it the North Star. It was only there for that one night, though. Normally it's out longer.
Beth Donahue, Hull, Ma
I have faith, i do not need "evidence" for the Magi, Jesus Christ or other. All the rest is just cheat.
Mario, Pescara, Italy
To deny the virgin birth is to deny Christianity in its entirety!
You are turning away just as it prophesied in the Bible.
May God have mercy on you all that do not believe.
Sherry Hamlin, New Tazewell, Tennessee
There may be a lot of documentary evidence to suggest that Jesus existed. However, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ was a very common name at that time. Therefore there may be evidence of 3000 Jesus Christs, rather tahn 300 pieces of evidence about one person. In the same way, in the future there will be millions of pieces of data about Peter Smith, which will only go to show that there were lots of Peter Smiths.
David Leslie, Perth, Scotland
That a religion would spontaneously spring up, convincing people that Messiah had truly come to earth, lived, died and resurrected, and that many of his followers would willingly go to their deaths for this belief suggests his existence quite strongly. I understand how easy it is to say "oh, maybe he never lived", but I suppose someone could say that about anyone..maybe Julius Caesar or Plato never lived...perhaps DaVinci is a mythical figure.
The point is, no one in their right mind would willingly allow themselves to be executed for something they KNEW was false...there would be no point for the early disciples of Jesus to die for something they knew was not true. The earliest accounts demonstrate that Peter denied Jesus and went back to fishing...hardly the sort of rhetoric one would expect from people trying to convince others that they had seen the Messiah.
Dylan, Edinburgh,
It has been scientifically proven that jesus did exist., outside of the faith and bible. The tombs of his family have been found and dated, he is mentioned in numerous other works by authors at that time, just two examples. Additionally the bible had stood the test fo time and has proven to be correct geographically, archiologically and factually. Regardless if you believe he was the son of god etc, jesus did exist.
Chris, Southampton, UK
There are over 3000 pieces of either historical or archeological evidence that Jesus Christ existed. That's more evidence that exists for historical people such as Julius Caesar, and his existance isn't questioned! Whether you believe Jesus was who he said he was is a matter of faith but you can't dispute that Jesus actually existed.
Nick Curry, Farnham, Surrey
Parthenogenesis is rare in mammals but not impossible. However, diploidization of a haploid egg cell results in two X chromosomes. Christ lacking a Y may have been female. The moral: theology and biology make awkward bedfellows. Sadly, most theology is based on a pre-scientific view of the world. Give me the Templeton prize please!
Derek, Lewes, UK
Mythology,legend and fairytale is littered with 'heroes' and 'saviours' born in circumstances of penury or, in some way displaced from their true habitat.
The Jesus story is just another of these fairy tales as there is no record of Augustus calling a census during that period and, Galilee, being responsible for raising its own taxes, would not have forced Joseph and Mary to travel and seek shelter in a crowded manger.
The shepherds and wise men being present, together, is not a conflation but a 'con-fiction'.
Ges Ashby, London,
The Archbishop talks twaddle. Santa does indeed generate a moral code; I certainly behaved better near Christamas for fear of not getting presents. At school, I used to draw pictures of him, so Santa does generate art, and we all used to imagine what toys he would bring, so Santa DOES generate imagination.
Santa is great. As for Jesus, the only good thing about him is we all get to watch Bond films on his birthday.
Mike, Brighton, England
There is absolutely no reason to believe that Jesus existed as even a man, let alone as a magical avatar of yahweh. It is all myth. All of it.
Charming story, though it may be, it is still only a story...
Ryan McCourt, Edmonton,
How does he know? How does anyone know? How does anyone know a man named Jesus existed? Maybe he is as real as Ebenezer Scrooge. A fictional character designed to give us better understanding of what faith is. He is saying that it needs not be a hurdle. It is in the essence of faith. He knows because he has faith. Religion is not about what others believe, it is about what you believe and how it helps complete your life and give it guidance.
J MacIntyre, Greenock, Scotland
No one has ever said the Nativity occurred in December, let alone that it snowed. The number of wise men presumably was based on the three gifts enumerated by Matthew. If these observations from the Lord Archbishop conclusions are supposed to be blockbusters, count me among the underwhelmed.
On his almighty shrug over the Virgin Birth, however, I am truly shocked. To describe belief in this most basic Christian tenet as optional is to undermine the entire Athanasian creed that is the bedrock of Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and the various Protestant denominations' shared faith. For if the Christ as divine did not precede his earthly incarnation, He could hardly have been, as the creed declares, the one who not only was present at the creation and created Heaven and Earth, and could not have "come down" to save sinful humanity. Cousin Rowan, I implore you to reconsider.
Ralph Williams, Somers, Connecticut
How does he know?
Arthur Lincoln, Lincoln,