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Phil Woolas, the new Immigration Minister, was again at the centre of controversy last night after contradicting official government policy over the position of the Church of England.
The outcome of the Government’s attempt to reform the House of Lords would be to strip the Church of its privileges, he said. Within 50 years the Church of England would have lost the special position it has held in English life since the Reformation.
Mr Woolas told The Times: “Disestablishment – I think it will happen because it’s the way things are going. Once you open debate about reform of the House of Lords you open up debate about the make-up of the House. It will probably take 50 years, but a modern society is multifaith.”
His remarks caused consternation in Whitehall: the Government has no intention of igniting a political row over the issue, which has consequences for the monarchy.
Mr Woolas has been at the centre of controversy since Saturday when he called for a limit on immigration but then backtracked in a television interview 24 hours later.
The Ministry of Justice issued a statement last night making clear that it has no intention of taking any step to disestablish the Church as part of constitutional reforms.
The statement said: “The Church of England is by law established as the Church in England and the monarch is its Supreme Governor. The Government remains committed to this position and values the establishment of the Church of England.”
Last night there were doubts over whether Mr Woolas’s scheduled appearance tomorrow on the BBC One programme Question Time would go ahead. Senior figures in Westminster were fearful of further damaging headlines after his remarks over curbing immigration and disestablishing the Church.
Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, fully supports establishment and has no wish for the issue to be opened.
The Government has reassured the Church of England that it will not embark on any move towards disestablishment unless the Church asks it to do so. With the Church bogged down in disputes over gays and women clergy, the last thing that it wants is a row over disestablishment. In Lambeth Palace and Whitehall the issue is considered political dynamite.
Sir Alan Beith, chairman of the Commons Justice Select Committee, whose remit includes constitutional reform, expressed surprise that Mr Woolas had mentioned the issue. He said: “This is an issue that is rather off-message at the moment for the Government. It is a huge undertaking.”
Sir Alan added: “I cannot see how it will have been greeted with enthusiasm around the Government. I am sure they do not want this being discussed at the next Cabinet meeting.”
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Why wait 50 years?
Colin, shrewsbury,
I agree with those who say that state affairs should be secular & religion must not play a role in it. Religion is a private matter & must not enter politics. Everyone should be treated the same irrespective of their faith, no faith should have more privilege over another.
heath, surrey, england
The sooner this country drops the privileged position of the CofE from our government the better. Religion of any kind should have no part in a secular government. I hope it doesn't take 50 years, dis-establishment now would be a good move.
Tony Gosling, London, UK
There should be a strict seperation of religion and state. I am horrified at some comments advocating including other faith representitives in the Lords. There should be none - including the Church of England. Politics is no place for religion.
w thompson, walsall, UK
It may still be the Church of England, but it long ago ceased to be the church of the English.
Bob Gibson, New York, USA
Iain Rae, because this country, sadly, no longer has any shipbuilders or craftsmen!
Tom, London,
Why not shipbuilders or craftsmen rather than bishops in the house of lords . All men are equal.
iain rae, tunbridge wells, t.w.
How can an institution often promoting homophobic and misogynistic tradition be seen as a valuable part of our countries establishment? The church complains of the modern materialist world, yet they're embedded in the heart of everything that's wrong with it. Promoting prejudice with power & money.
ryan clay, Norwich, UK
Once again the majority of writers confuse England with the UK.
There should be no unelected representatives of any kind in Parliament. Come to think of it, I don't remember voting for a monarch either. The Act of Succession ensures that no British monarch shall owe allegiance to the Vatican.
David Glen, Glasgow, Scotland
Disestablishment: in many European countries the state picks up costs for maintaining historical church buildings.. and doesn't get to pick the church's leaders. In England the state gets control and pays nothing!
ps All sections of society should be represented in the House of Lords!
David, Oxford, UK
No religion should have special privileges like this, the state affairs should be secular.
Brfian, Cirencester, UK
We will now see if the "Conservative Party" lives up to its name.
Edmund Burke, Kingston upon Thames, England
Andrew from Cardiff, thank you for drawing reference to the French. As a monarchist, I couldn't have come up with a stronger argument as to why we should never become a republic!
Tom, London,
Lot of support for christianity based on its English history in some comments. Why am I ashamed of so much of that history, was I taught differently at my UK Grammar, 50years ago?. Did the murders and slaughter and corruption not happen?. Isnt it still corrupted with power and stolen property?.
alan, worcs, uk
It is outrageous that in the 21st Century we still have bishops in the House of Lords. From the way they moan and whinge, anyone would think that the Church of England were being persecuted. They don't seem to notice how much of our education system they control and how much influence they have.
Ben Chapman, Northamptonshire, England
Establishment has bought much good ... but Christianity was never meant to be in a preferential position in the governance of a country. A 'Christian country' implies coercion and dominance: a long way from Jesus of Nazareth. Christianity has 'power' when it is marginal. Perhaps Mr Woolas is right
Rev Graham Peacock, Hutton Rudby, England
So, essentially, the church will stay in power unless it ASKS to be removed? And no-one in government wants to build a fairer society because it would mean a lot of paperwork?
That is, quite simply, ridiculous.
Camilla, Burnley,
Andrew, Cardiff
If it comes down to a choice between a Nu Labour Government and the Monarchy, I'm with the Monarchy.
Martin, Reading , UK
Mr.Woolas is half right on the issue, the CoE should indeed be dis-established, but he is wrong on the multi-faith bit, the majority of this country's population hold no faith, we should not have any faith be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism to hold any place in the Public sphere, Secularise the lot.
Rob Harries, Nottingham, Uk
Britain may not be a fully Christian society, but it is a Christian homeland, and our nation's culture, traditions and values are steeped in Christianity. In fact a multi-faith society exists under the umbrella of Christianity.
Lee Morrall, Cannock, Staffs
Not only should we disestablish the church, we should abolish the monarchy and adopt a written secular constitution. That would ensure no religious interference from the CoE, The Vatican, Muslim, groups or anyone else. The French have much to be admired in their model.
Andrew, Cardiff, UK
Religion is no more than medievil claptrap and has no place in a mondern society; especially in the governance of a country. It makes a refreshing change for a politician to have to nerve to talk sense. Good for you Mr Woolas!!
Mark Sheppard, Retford, UK
more moves to give the muslim faith more control, and a more stable move towards sharia law.
Yachydda, Wrexham, Wales
As a Cathoilc I await in anticipation the disestablishment of the Church of England as should all of those people who subscribe to a multi faith community. How inconvenient of Minister Woolas to raise such a patently obvious development. While you are about it deal with the Act of Succession.
John, Brisbane, Australia
The fact that this medieval nonsense has any part to playin the governance of a 21st century democracy baffles me.Strip the church of England of all of its priveleges now as part of a plan to remove the inherant divisiveness of religious belief from government.
Marcus, Llandudno,
As a Priest in the Church of England but more importantly as a Christian, the question is not establishment or disestablishment. Rather principles, the Bishops in the house of Lords are without political whip and may speak freely, for the majority Christian population as the last census showed uo to
Paul Seymour, Welwyn Garden City, Herts
Great, so the Religion that has bound this country together for Hundreds of years is going to be sidelined, & no doubt other religions will have a bigger say, thus further eliminating our culture.
The time will soon nbe here to decide what you want from your country!
Pete, St Albans, England
This government needs to be removed as soon as possible. They have destroyed our armed forces, our basic needs such as hospitals and education are in tatters and now the church of England!! The Labour party is dangerous, it always has been and it always will be.
Piers Edwards, Oxford, UK
Of course they'll get rid of Christianity- in case it offends Muslims.We've had dopey left wing councils renaming Christmas as Wintermas and not that long ago Tessa Jowell as Culture Minister sent out "Xmas" cards that failed to show any pictures or mention of Xmas, in case it caused offence.
Mike, Dunstable, England
People underestimate the positive influence of Christianity. All our morals and principlesa are built from those preached by Christianity and this has given us a civilised and successful society. Take those away and civilisation will simply end!
Matt, Norwich,
a mutlifaith country does not mean that the faith that is most associated with english culture should take a back seat. as usual, those in power are quite willing to water their own history and culture for an ideology of mutliculturalism. no other country would be so blind or self demeaning.
James, London, UK
I think enough serious damage has been done to the culture and way of life in England by the Socialists since the end of the war, And now to attack part of the very fabric of England itself namely the Church of England, I needn't ask i know but have you no shame ?.Is there no line you wouldn't cross
Peter, Vancouver.BC, Canada
Why do we have to wait 50 years?
John Dale, Sunderland,
All religion will be gone in a thousand. We might as well kill the stupid fairy story propogators now as later.
Charles, London,
So. Does all this mean the UK is not actually a democracy? These bishops are not elected - right? Isn't it a bit backward to have a church being part of the political process? What percentage of UK citizens are members of this Church of England?
denis, seattle, usa
Religious differences can only cause endless trouble and strife as we have seen over the centuries. They are, always have been and always will be the cause of endless wars. All religions should be dispossessed from having any power in the UK as a negative force in society we would do without.
Derek , nuneaton, UK
Makes sense.
I'm sure by then Islam will be the dominant religion in the country.
Paul, Singapore,
50 years?
Jesus Christ will be back before then!
Read Luke chapter 21 and The Book of Revelation.
The world is on a backward slide down into the Holy Bibles endtimes.
Look at the increase in wars, earthquakes, famines and diseases...the Mark of the Beast 666.
Its all right before our eyes.
G Gibson, Sydney, Australia
Get rid of the lot of them.
Nobody has elected the Bishops to the Lords, nobody has asked them to be there and most of us don't want them there.
Disestablish the Church and let the CofE stand on its own two feet rather than sponging off taxpayers.
James, Manchester, UK
I Find it "Disgraceful" that the "C.O.E.", do not "Support "Their Churches", even though they are one of the "Most Financially Secure Organisation's"? have they "Invested in "CFD'S or Iceland"? But to see a "Listed Church (St David's Newtown, Powys, UK), put on the "Market for £250K", is disgraceful
paul, manchester, uk
That all sounds great, get rid of it all. No other democracy has seats and votes for the (male) religious.
SA, Dundee,
Watching the late night parliamentary debates the Clergy often present a well argued objectionto the govt's more outrageous plans. The system is not perfect but the recent defeat of the 42 day detention is an example of neutral representatives being useful as watchdogs of modern Britain's governance
rob, southampton, uk
After all the "fuss, bother and confusion" re the various public statements recently attributed to Mr. Woolas, one can derive much amusement and satisfaction on splitting his surname into its component parts. Is he speaking "personally", or as a Minister of the Crown?. What else is up his sleeve?.
Andrew, Maracay,
The House of Lords is a safety valve, our only protection from a rouge Government (of any party). Play around with it at our peril.
P Barrett, Plymouth, England