Your A-levels are equivalent to our Freshman (first year) college courses. Which means that if you've taken enough A-levels you start here as a Sophomore, and then college is only three years.
The reason they are equiv is that our high schools end with grade 12. Your A-levels are the same as ending high school at grades 13 or 14.
UCLA is not an Ivy League university, but even their students can spell "professional".

Peter, Georgetown, usa

Is there not something fundamentally wrong with the idea that students who go to the fee paying schools that you have quoted should be able to go to the US on a scholarship?

I Daly, Cambridge, UK

"The problem with American universities is that they are in America." Exactly.

If you want a rigorous education (regardless of the financial bonus of the US) apply to BRITISH univerisites. If you want to take advantage of the huge sport stadiums and extra-curricular endeavours available then go to a university such as UCLA. Why waste a year repeating or learning stuff that the lousy US schools wouldn't (or couldn't) teach pre-college level? UK A-levels surpass the US pre-college system with flying colours, as does undergraduate level. However, the US Ivy League for proffesional graduate schools are superb as are the the big chunks of dollar thrown at you for research.

Jeremy Darkson, Bedford, United Kingdom

Interesting article but one correction: one can get a Bachelors of Science in Architecture. I took degrees in Architecture and Civil Engineering from the Univesity of Pennsylvania.

Randall Ainsworth, Exton, Pennsylvania

Here in the states, Harvard is considered to be better for graduate students than it is for undergraduates. For undergraduates it is not what one might call a nurturing environment as professors are involved in their own research, and are not expected to concentrate on being accessible to students. The competitive smaller colleges may provide more personal attention and assistance with students' plans for the future. An important way in which US and UK schools do differ is, as pointed out, medicine, law and architecture are not offerings at the undergraduate level. Students go on to schools of medical, law, and architecture after they have their undergraduate degree. Successful candidates for these places must have an exceptional undergraduate record, score well on pre-admission tests, and do well during personal interviews.

S., Norwich, Vermont, Norwich, Vermont

Can anyone say from looking at these comments? Typical English arrogance? One would think falling from world's No.1 to No. 5 and would teach you some humility.

Anyhow, that said, as a American Student at the London School of Economics, I must say on a standards level the top English schools surpass the Ivy League. You also get a much more international experience and a healthy elitist atmosphere that excludes the riff raff. The simple matter is, the US is wealthy and its private schools much better integrated into a market society, so it automatic that they will have £. American universities couldn't compete with the British ones in the 19th century, at least British ones do in the 21st.

Dorian Key, London, UK

Latch - Do I detect in your case the hubris of an arriviste? I can see how you're proud of your achievement but please don't trot out the old "bitter reject" line. Oxbridge doesn't necessarily teach all the subjects that the brightest and best might want to study nor does it do so in the way they want to study them. If a student is truly interested in their subject and it's either not catered for at Oxbridge or simply isn't done well by them then to my mind that student shows more initiative by going to the Uni that suits them rather than sacrificing integrity for kudos.

BTW - Generations of my family have achieved Oxbridge places and I can safely say that those who went there are no brighter or more successful than those who chose different paths.

Iain, Edinburgh, UK

When the British kids have to compete with those from all over Europe, plus all the refugees who have arrived in the UK in hope of a free education, quite frankly I am not surprised.

Ben in Australia, Queensland, Australia

We need to get something else clear - by no means do high grades at A-level guarantee a place at Oxbridge, as some people commenting on this article seem to think. "A former disgruntled parent" from Winchester, those sixth-formers you mentioned weren't rejected on the grounds that they attended a fee-paying school, they were rejected because they simply weren't good enough and the interview process filtered them out. I suspect that you're disgruntled because you equated tens of thousands of pounds spent on school fees to Oxbridge entry; you can't "buy" a place at any university, and the government's attempts to open the doors of opportunity to poorer students should not be chastised.

Oxbridge aim to meet government quotas by encouraging greater numbers of state-school applicants, not by lowering standards as some people seem to think. Oxbridge continues to attract the brightest and the best, regardless of whether that means state-educated or privately-educated pupils.

Latch Haran, London, UK

I think you will find that Imperial College London are 5th in those rankings and UCL are 9th,both often forgotten excellent Universities.

"they're the only UK universities who can compete alongside Ivy League schools in the top 10 of world university rankings, no other UK university can even come close to matching that".

.......I think you might be wrong there Latch!

Elizabeth, Birmingham,

I agree that no other universities can beat the US Ivy League ones in terms of the resources, attention and training that is imparted. I have studied at an internationally reputed school in the UK , but my first choice had always been the US. I opted for the UK, as I was working in another country when I applied and couldn't afford to take time off to prepare for GMAT !

But I have met students from the US who had come to study here in the UK, and most of them just laugh at the hype !

Sujith, london,

I think it's good for Oxbridge to see and hear about this,As an A level students i have to take in consideration
the cost of going to such universities,our universities need to be more generous and helpful to the talented students out there that do not come from a wealthy family who can pay anything and everything off.
Hopefully this will be a wake up call to Oxbridge and their "old boy system,"keep it up and people will leave the country to go somewhere with more opportunities and they will only cease to decline further down to league board.

Agi, London, Uk

I love how Patrick from Glasgow seems to think that Oxbridge "lost its mantle a long time ago." What rubbish, they're the only UK universities who can compete alongside Ivy League schools in the top 10 of world university rankings, and no other UK university can even come close to matching that. Further, it certainly isn't the Scottish universities that are providing the threat. Are these the ramblings of a rejected Oxbridge applicant?

I'll concede that both Oxford and Cambridge have got their work cut out for them in regards to competition from US schools, but if funding is the issue then the courses of action that could be taken are very limited - how are we to compete with $36bn? What can be done is that the application procedure is made more demanding and more rigorous, so as to ensure that only the best students work themselves through the system to be awarded a place.

Finally, having been at Cambridge I can say that states school students are often far and away the true stars.

Latch Haran, London, UK

I congratulate Oxford and Cambridge for doing their utmost to hinder poor students' chances. Oxbridge is for the top children in the country, it would be a travesty if less able and "poor" students were allowed places. If the Colonies wish to do their own thing and have second class students, that is up to them. However we are British and we jolly well do better at everything.

God save the Queen.

Rupert, Cambridge, England

I agree that not all Ivy league universities are in the top 10 in the world league table. As some one who studied and worked in the USA, I can say that whilst the universities are richer through endowments, at the undergraduate level the standard is no better. Also, the grades are subjected to professor's' judgement, as there is no fixed thresholds for grades A, B and C as they are comparatively derived. I have seen cases where students are hard done by as a result of individual professor's judgements, and the appeal process is not robust. Of course there is ovesight of examination boards and external examiners.

Gary Smith, LONDON,

It's fair enough that if you go to an Ivy league college you can graduate debt free. But looking at it purely from a financial perspective - if you go to a top UK University and graduate in three years, you could be in exactly the same financial situation, after four years. Assuming you have a graduate job offer lined up to start straight after you graduate you'll be walking into a £25k - £30k job. (Packages of upto £40k are not uncommon in some sectors). Plus, you've got an extra year's worth of work experience.

It's not as clear cut as you may think. Just because our universities don't have multi billion dollar endowments, doesn't mean they are greatly inferior to the US institutions - Oxford, Cambridge & UCL, as well as Imperial and LSE are amongst the very best universities in the world, and with the current UK student loan system, no student can say they can't afford to go to a globally recognised University.

Hassan Azam, Banbury, Oxfordshire, England

I spent 8 years at university first in the UK - London and the USA -UCLA so I have a bit of experience on this.

The truth about university is that you get out what you put in no matter where it is - both socially and intellectually. There are some poor universities it's true but there are loads of bad students. So really it doesn't matter where you go for your first degree, especially if you are a high flyer. Though I admit for second rate students a well known college may look better on the CV.

I would also reject the basic assumption - I don't think the quality of the undergraduates adds a jot to the reputation of any University. It is the staff and possibly the post-grads most of who rarely stay at their alma mater ( and both incidently view undergrads as an unavoidable irritant).

You don't agree - then name one famous undergrad at any university In the world.

M R Green, Brussels,

Judging by some of the responses to this article, it would seem that the quest for good spelling and grammar are no longer worthy pursuits at these noble institutions of ours. I hope this is not a sign of declining standards in the Ivy League.

KJ, Bristol, UK

While I respect your experience Keith, as a UK student at Harvard I must say that your interpretation of US college education is wholly inaccurate for top Ivy League schools - almost all British students at Harvard achieved 3 or 4 As at A-Level and find themselves no more academically prepared than their American peers. What you refer to as a 'rehash of precollege material' is a core curriculum that tries to bring all students up to A-Level standard in vital areas such as maths, writing and analytical ability regardless of their declared major. Beyond the core curriculum, students are encouraged (and most importantly, they have the opportunity) to pursue subjects outside of their major to a much higher level than can be achieved at A-Level, whilst the education they receive in their major is second to no UK university course. Ultimately, a lot more is demanded of students in the Ivy League than of students in the British system and consequently they leave with a far superior education

TC, London, UK

Readers of this article shouldn't assume that the eight Ivy League universities are in fact the top 8 universities in the US. MIT, Caltech, and Stanford are more prestigious than all of them, except for Harvard, Yale and Princeton.

Joe, Los Angeles, CA

Grrrrrr. Ja, Why could the best pupils not come from a less privileged background? There is no risk of top universities being undermined by seeking the best candidates, wherever they come from.
I agree that top universities are elitist (if the elite are the most able to excel within academia and demonstrate this on merit). Elite, of course, does not mean coming from a privileged background.
By seeking applications from pupils who might consider themselves to be from an inappropriate background (whatever that would be) or not good enough, universities are less likely to fail to attract the best applicants.
No one suggests that elite universities seek candidates who are not the the best and have not "made the grade". Rather, the best might need to be sought in areas previously untapped; that is, underprivileged backgrounds.

As for US uni's, I expect that, with the UK prolifeartion of the IB, more pupils will wish to begin uni with the broad focus typical in the US
Pete, Sussex

Pete Lawrence, Oxford,

More than a few students have been rejected by top British institutions because, despite high predicted A-Level scores, they have had the misfortune to have parents or grandparents who have been able to send them to fee-paying school.

At least 2 in my son's Upper-6th have been rejected to study medicine. My son was one of them.

So, under his own steam he researched various foreign universities and secured a place at a major Australian university with a full scholarship to cover all costs (other than flying him there and back) and secure in the knowledge that he will find a training place within the Australian health system on graduation. As we know all too well, many UK medical students might well be jobless after finishing their university training.

Seeing as Australian qualifications in medicine are every bit as good as anything from the UK, the quality of life is often better than can be obtained here, he'd have been foolish to stay in Britain.

A formerly disgruntled parent, Winchester, England

The American university that attracts the largest number of international students is actually the University of Southern California, located in Los Angeles. It has first rate undergraduate colleges in many specialist subjects that are rare or absent in Ivy League universities (e,g, engineering, communications, business, theatre, architecture, and cinematic arts) as well as the full range of letters, arts and sciences. It also offers the largest total of bursaries and scholarships of any American university.

Martin Levine, Los Angeles, California

A large proportion of the creme de la creme of brains in the UK choose to become doctors and go to our world renowned medical schools for 4-6 years and endure the hardest of studies and most demanding of finals, graduating with a debt of £30,000 on the way too. They then graduate to either run away to Australia, join the dole queue or stay at home because the government refuses to pay to train them further to GP or consultant level by cutting training budget by 135 million in 2007. Instead, the government chooses to squander 12 'Billion' on the Spine; an NHS IT system to keep patients records despite the majority of doctors warnings that it is not needed and is flawed as well as a security risk! ... The UK needs to set it's priorities right otherwise we will see a 'brains' exodus soon ... and who can blame them!

It is estimated that two thirds of our junior doctors will not be suited to a training post in 2008 and the picture is gloomier for the foreseable future! ... Save them!

Sam, London, England

Aside from the fact that "British" does not equal "English", most universities work either on the semester or the quarter system (the latter being rarer). There are 3 semesters a year, not 2.Liz

Liz, Birmingham,

The eight "Ivy League" universities are: Harvard, near Boston, MA; Yale, New Haven, CT; Univ of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA; Princeton, central New Jersey; Columbia University, New York, NY; Brown, Providence, RI; Dartmouth Collage, Hanover, NH; and Cornell University, upstate New York. All save Cornell were founded prior to the American Revolution. Current endowments range from Brown's $2.8 billion to Harvard's $34.9 billion, the largest of any academic institution in the world.

Robert Piersa, Brooklyn, N.Y. ,

Having obtained an undergraduate degree in the UK, MS and Ph.D in the USA and taught in the USA at the undergraduate and graduate level for many years, I might have a little insight. Facilities and financial aid are far superior to the UK, However the education is not necessarily. The reason most degrees take four years is because more than 60% of the required courses are a rehash of precollege material that have nothing to do with one's major primarily because of the lousey precollege education, and low standards. Beware of what you are getting. I will say that post graduate education is far superior because of financial aid and facilities.

Keith Bancroft, Hammond, USA

Let's all remember that the best and the brightest American undergraduates still arduously compete for postgraduate placements at Oxbridge, LSE, etc.

In the United States, it is often considered the pinnacle of academic achievement to study in the United Kingdom.

Emma B, Chicago, US

There are architecture undergraduate courses at hundreds of schools in the US... if you go to the right research university you can take medicine courses. Just clearing that up!

A number of people graduate between 3-5 years. You can fulfill requirements for some degrees in 2.5-3 years... but many choose to stay for all 4 to take other courses.

Cristina, St. Louis,

Do the schools in the UK still instruct in what the Brits call "English" or is it Urdu now? Can't recall hearing even "English" spoken in the UK last time I was across the pond!

Shawn, Austin, TX

To Nim, lincoln, uk;
well thats a pretty pathetic remark, i currently attend an American University, an can tell you first hand that Zero preference is placed on ethnic origin; the only requirement is proper citizenship(for permenant U.S. employment) and visa status(for co-op/internship). Its asinine for you to suggest that any respectable employment would ever practice in that manner. As for the awful accents/cambridge culture remarks; well i geuss thats your opinion. Judging by your intelligent insight, I geuss you really know what your talking about.

Tim , USA,

A Jones, Prabhat and Ja – I take it you guys couldn’t get into Oxbridge then despite a “privileged” education? Your parents must be really hacked off with you having forked out all that money? Just to reassure you that the majority of successful applicants for Oxbridge are still privately educated and the ones that were not, are simply better than you academically – live with it!

Mike, London,

I am half American and half English and went to one of the best private schools in the U.S. before applying to Oxford. Despite my straight A's, it was going to be very difficult for me to get in since I had to pass the entrance exam. This required a year out and furious cramming, just to get up to snuff. I got in, and did well, but without that year my "top flight" US education alone would have left me competing for entry with an effectively fourth or fifth form education.
All the UK kids I know who went to Ivy undergrad are from wealthy families and couldn't get into to Oxbridge. They however are welcome at Ivy league schools because the standards there ( I am only referring to undergraduate levels) are simply lower and meeting the financial requirements are much more vital to gaining admission. The students like it because the names retain Oxbridge-level prestige, mainly owing to cultural misunderstanding. Its a perfect mix for the rich/privately educated Oxbridge reject.

Crossculture, New York, New York, NY

"British students have to take the SAT1 (general) exam and then can use A levels to apply"

Do your research - this statement is totally incorrect.

john, london, UK

Indeed they are BigJake. They're happy to return to a country where 50% of the population thinks the universe is less than 10,000 years old.

Steve Dexter, Manchester,

Not all British undergraduate degrees are 3 years long. Like the American universities undergraduate degrees at all Scottish institutions take 4 years. When you add in the higher debt of British study for anyone of average parental income or above, and a natural desire to see the world, it's hardly surprising British students increasingly look abroad.

Mark, Glasgow, Scotland, UK

Nobody mentions the elephant in the room -this government's obsession with social engineering. Able, amply qualified privately educated pupils facing rejection from Oxbridge are naturally turning to the Ivy League. It is an inevitable consequence and will continue until admission is once more dependent solely upon ability.

A Jones, london, UK

290 applications is negligible.

Chris Deal, Cambridge,

The drain towards US Universities has less to to with academic supremacy of Ivy League and more to do with the gradual deterioration Oxbridge in its international appeal with students. No doubt that Oxbridge commands academic and professional respect amongst the elite in the UK but it is a fallacy to assume that in today's world Oxbirdge has same standing amongst International students that it had say 50 years ago. When Oxbridge was still revelling in its local glory of being at the top 20 years ago, top US universities had already gone international and were inviting bright students from top Continental, Chinese and Indian schools. Brits who are choosing to go to the US Ivy League are only realising the potential that these Universities through education offer in their international appeal initially as a student and later as a professional. Ivy League will remain a better option for foreseeable future.

Prabhat, UK,

I attended Harvard Summer School back in 2000 whilst at university here. The moment I walked on campus I reaslied that this was indeed the best educational facility on the planet. The tutoring was second to none. The access to information (especially recently declassified information) was amazing and the extracurricular facilities we mind boggling (and I was attending a so-called centre of sporting excellence back home). I recommend that kids here still at school take advantage of the summer school programmes that the US universities offer ... their thurst for knowledge will only be greater by the time they return home.

Sid, London,

I'm truly astonished by this but then on reflection it makes sense because US universities are far more commercially adept than the UK universities especially when it comes to commercialisation of research. In other words they are properly integrated into the economy. So I'm therefore not all surprised they receive so much in philanthropic support because they are probably much more highly valued.

The danger is of course that once UK students have had a taste of what a real enterprise society is like they'll just never come back and who could blame them! One of my own sons went to work for a large aerospace company in the USA and has told me that he certainly never intends coming back because from an industrial standpoint the UK is just now "so third world".. Makes sense to me.

DickW, Aberdeen, Scotland

US employers will put US citizens first for ANY job so it will be interesting to see whether these kids will get the top posts over there, or be forced to come home with awful accents. Its not all about the short game and the Oxbridge culture is the richest in the world.

Nim, lincoln, uk

I should not have thought that the parents of students attending St Paul's Girls' School, Wellington College and Cheltenham Ladies' College would be particularly attracted by the financial "packages" offered by American universities. After all, they will have been forking out a great deal more than the £3,000 per annum in fees currently charged by British universities in order to educate their offspring up to the age of 18. For them British university education is still a bargain. The people who would benefit most from American largesse are, surely, the parents of those bright children who cannot afford to have them educated privately. The current cut-off point for any financial assistance from the government for university education is, I believe, lower than the average wage. Even if you are unfortunate enought to have more than one child at university at the same time it makes no difference, whereas it used to under the old system of universal means-tested grants.

Geoffrey Warner, Didcot, UK

To Gamini de Silva of the UK,

George Bush got into Harvard and Yale simply because of his father. When your father is a super rich oil-executive with substantial power in Washington who goes on to be CIA director, VP and then Pres, you can be anything you want. The rest of us actually have to work for our success. So don't dis Harvard or Yale please.

The J Miester, Washington, USA/ DC

I hope they know what they are doing. If Yale and Harvard together produced a George Bush, what quality would be the ones who could only get into one.

Ernie

Gamini de Silva, Reading, UK

Nothing in the New World can compare to the medieval splendour of Oxbridge.

Michael, Belfast,

The best students should be sure to apply to Princeton - a much finer undergraduate education, and the most generous financial aid package in the US.

W Cox, Hampstead, UK

All very well, but students are messed about something rotten by the US DHS when it comes to visas. Can students afford to have to miss 6 months of a course because the DHS delays issuing a visa?

Kay Tie, York, UK

I'm a bit afraid that if Oxford and cambridge keep going for "less privileged" pupils ,then their status as top universities will be undermined. By their nature, top universities are elitist, and should be aiming to attract the best in the world, not giving a helping hand up to people who don't quite make the academic grade. Leave that to slightly lesser universities, and provide useful endowments to give poor but clever pupils worldwide a real chance to get to the real top. Actually I wonder why they do NOT go all out to attract funding for bursaries from private donors. Is the Government hamstringing them? If so, shouldn't they be shouting a bit louder and rebeling a bit more? Their reputations as top world-class universities are beyond price. It would be almost impossible to regain ground if they become second-choice options on the world scene.

ja, london,

After leaving Oxford with £32,000 worth of debt this would have definitely been a serious alternative should it have been a more popular alternative 8-9 years ago. I would definitely advise anyone who is applying to Oxbridge to think about applying to the Ivy League Uni's.

Sef, West Yorkshire, UK

And the problem with UK universities is that they are, well, in the UK.

Luca, S. Diego, US

We got to stop this in its tracks if Oxford is to remain a place where people wish to study.
When Oxford education was free then even the richest person would hesitate at a bill of 25 thousand pounds a year from an American university. However if you are already paying a bit over ten thousand a year for Oxford, the Americans, offering superior facilities for 25 thousand, can compete.

Oxford must either be free, or it must raise fees to a similar level to the Americans to offer the same standard of teaching. The present system of a state-regulated fee must end before it destroys the status of the university.

Malcolm McLean, Bradford, UK

Yet more English centric reporting from this great british paper!

"American undergraduate degrees are four years long, compared with three at British universities" - that is except at scottish universities were they are also 4 years long- Is scotland no longer part of britain?

"oxbridge" lost it's mantle a long time ago, scoring significantly below many other UK institutions accross a range of subjects. With Glasgow, Edinburgh and St Andrews climbing the world rankings on a yearly basis.

Patrick, Glasgow, Scotland

Don't be envious Neel. Many American students spend a term in UK universities, then are happy to return home! :D

BigJake, New Jersey, USA

I think growing awareness of high schools, and high school students, may be a part of the picture.

When I applied to university for undergrad 5 years ago, I didn't even know US schools could be a possibility -- or that they provided substantial bursaries for good students. UCAS certainly didn't advertise it!

I went to Cambridge, and loved it, but I would certainly have considered some of the top US schools (I later spent an exchange year at MIT, and am now a graduate student at Northwestern).

Y Shen, Evanston, Illinois, USA

I'll drink to that, Neel.

Skylar Baker-Jordan, Nashville, Tennessee, by way of Basingstoke, England

The problem with American universities is that they are in America.

Neel, Oxford, UK

UK Students

L, Columbus, USA

UK students

L, Columbus, USA