In Gapun, a remote village on the Sepik River in Papua New Guinea, the women
take a robust approach to arguing. In her pithy new book The Myth of Mars
and Venus, Deborah Cameron reports an anthropologist’s account of a
dispute between a husband and wife that ensued after the woman fell through
a hole in the rotten floor of their home and she blamed him for shoddy
workmanship. He hit her with a piece of sugar cane, an unwise move that led
her to threaten to slice him up with a machete and burn the home to the
ground.
At this point he deemed it prudent to leave and she launched into a kros
– a traditional angry tirade directed at a husband with the intention of it
being heard by everyone in the village. The fury can last for up to 45
minutes, during which time the husband is expected to keep quiet. This
particular kros went along these lines: “You’re a f****** rubbish man. You
hear? Your f****** prick is full of maggots. Stone balls! F****** black
prick! F****** grandfather prick! You have built me a good house that I just
fall down in, you get up and hit me on the arm with a piece of sugar cane!
You f****** mother’s ****!”
Such a domestic scene may be familiar to some readers, but for most of us
arguing with our partners is not quite such an explosive business; except,
perhaps, when discussing who is most responsible for a navigational hiccup
on the way to lunch at the home of an old flame of our partner’s, or getting
to the bottom of who left the ****** ******* cap off the **** *******
toothpaste for the third ****** ******* time this ****** ******* week.
Human beings argue about everything from adultery to Zionism and we do so in
different styles, whether we are submissive, passive, aggressive, abusive,
abusive-passive, aggressive-abusive, submissive-aggressive or
submissive-passive-aggressive-abusive.
But are there any broad differences between the sexes in the way that we
argue? US research into marital stress on the heart has thrown up an
intriguing finding about the way some are prone to “self-silencing” during
arguments. The research by Elaine D. Eaker, published in Psychosomatic
Medicine, found that more men than women had a tendency to bottle up
their feelings during confrontations with their partners.
Tim Smith is a psychology professor at the University of Utah, whose own
research has found indications that women’s heart health is affected
adversely by quarrels and men’s when they feel they are losing control.
There are clear indications, he says, that it is a male tactic to withdraw
from arguments. “Women, on average, are more often in the role of the
managers of relationship matters. They are often in the position of bringing
up and pursuing things they would like to change. This is seen in wives
making a request and pursuing it and husbands withdrawing and pulling back.
The more of it a couple displays the weaker their relationship future is.”
John Gray, whose Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus is one of the
most successful self-help books of all time, explains this male withdrawal
process thus: “To avoid confrontation Martians may retire into their caves
and never come out. This is like a cold war. They refuse to talk and nothing
gets resolved.” He says that it is “passive aggressive behaviour” and
Martians are “afraid of confrontation and would rather lie low and avoid
talking about any topics that may cause an argument”.
Edward, 37, a freelance writer, says he is a practitioner of the withdrawal
method. “I’m useless at arguing. I have things that bother me but when I
finally say something I am too slow to win the argument. I’ll make an
accusation about what I know is a pattern of behaviour that is hurtful for
me. But then I’ll get asked to come up with examples and I’ll freeze. I
don’t recall them. I can only launch in when I have all the evidence to back
up my argument ready to use. I suppose I’m too lazy to do that. I think
women, on the whole, are more practised at arguing, or more interested.”
Gray’s thesis is that the differences and disagreements between men and women
don’t hurt so much as the ways in which we communicate them. “Most couples
start out arguing about one thing and within five minutes are arguing about
the way they are arguing.” The pattern he identifies involves a woman
raising an issue, often asking rhetorical questions rather than being
direct. The man, rightly or wrongly, hears disapproval. Men, according to
Gray, are in great need of approval.
Feeling challenged, the man becomes focused on being right and forgets to be
loving. The woman then becomes upset by his unloving delivery and defends
herself from his sharpened expressions. Her tone becomes mistrusting and
rejecting. Gray says that we need to remember that our partner objects not
to what we are saying but how we are saying it.
“Most arguments escalate when a man begins to invalidate a woman’s feelings
and she responds to him disapprovingly.” When a woman shares her frustration
men go on the defensive. “Every cell in a man’s body reacts with a list of
explanations and justifications designed to explain away her upset feelings.”
Christine Northam, a counsellor with Relate, the marriage-counselling service,
points to An Introduction to Family Therapy, by R. Dallos and R.
Draper, which cautions that “despite these differences between men and
women, especially in the supposed concern that women have with feelings,
analysis of everyday conversations does little to bear this out.”
But Northam adds that in her experience of many years of helping couples, the
way men and women have been conditioned affects the way that they argue and
that it true that men have a greater tendency to withdraw. One popular
phrase among psychologists is “the distancer and the pursuer”, says Northam.
“One of you wants to sort it and the other one backs off: ‘I will shut down
and I won’t deal with you.’ That does lead to a lot of tension in the
relationship and you end up not addressing what you need to be talking
about.
“I do talk with men who find it very, very difficult to engage with their
feelings. Women say: ‘He won’t respond to me, he won’t listen, he thinks
he’s right all the time.’ Men have been socialised to think that they know
what they are talking about. I know it’s changing, it’s really changing a
lot. But that’s still around: ‘Men are powerful and what I say goes.’ Women
internalise that too. It’s not just the blokes. Women get very frustrated,
hysterical, when trying to get their point across because it seems that it
just falls on the dead ground all the time. What they are saying is not
being picked up and acknowledged and dealt with.
“Certainly the younger men that I see tend to be much more willing to engage
with their feelings, keen to understand them and talk about them. Older men
find it slightly trickier or more than slightly trickier.”
She adds that women are also capable of the withdrawal technique. “Oh yes,
women are quite powerful at doing that as well. They change the subject or
rubbish it or cry. Crying is a good one and then the poor man says: ‘Oh my
god, she’s in tears’.”
We all recognise that scenario. “I don’t argue a lot but I do cry a lot,” says
Sarah, 32, an advertising executive. “I’ll say something harsh to him and
he’ll say something probably only equally harsh back and then I’ll be in
floods of tears. I call my friend and she says: ‘Where are you?’ ‘In the
loo.’ And then when I finally come out after half an hour he’s just watching
TV as if nothing has happened.”
Christine Northam says that another major difference between the way men and
women argue is that “men tend to resort to aggression very quickly, whereas
women are more manipulative and try and present a problem and go on and on
about it rather than being succinct. Men get angry and feel defensive and
shameful very quickly, then they get aggressive. In the worst-case scenario
they get violent. Men tend to probably become more aggressive more quickly
overall — but not every time by any means.
“Aggression I would say is more easy to recognise when blokes are arguing. Men
want to be more powerful. All couple disagreements are about power and
control: who’s going to come out on the top. You have to be ever so grown up
to start negotiating and that’s what couple counselling is about — helping
to negotiate instead of arguing all the time.”
She says that men are also more prone to decline to take their partner’s
concerns seriously. “They say: ‘She’s going on again. Oh, here we go.’ They
tend to trivialise. I’m afraid it goes back to our patterning; the
stereotypical stuff we have all been fed. We are very much influenced by the
way our parents were or even our grandparents. We all like to think we are
terribly different but we are not. It stays inside you and so the way you do
emotions is learnt in your family. To look at them, understand them and then
make a conscious decision that you will do it differently is very grown up.”
Deborah Cameron, the Rupert Murdoch Professor of Language and Communication at
the University of Oxford, believes that the differences between the way men
and women argue are overstated. “The idea that men and women differ
fundamentally in the way they use language to communicate is a myth,” she
says. She is sceptical of research that examines what people say in staged
situations, or that relies on people to report on their own relationships.
“I do not believe research based on questions about how people argue that
require them to be better observers than almost all people are of their own
linguistic behaviour.”
Even if people were to be wired up and recorded over a long time to capture
spontaneous arguments, it is hard to draw conclusions about differences
between the sexes, she says, because people argue differently in different
cultures and situations, as her account of the approach of the women of New
Guinea suggests. “It depends which men and women you observe,” she says. The
idea that there is no difference between the arguing styles of a woman in
the West, her granny and a woman in a tribal village in Africa is “absolute
rubbish”.
“You can’t generalise about men and women. Cultural differences are much
bigger than gender differences. You need to specify what culture and what
community within that culture.” She is scathing of John Gray’s work, which
she says “ignores the difference that context and subject matter make, and
is massively generalised and exaggerated”.
She says that “it is intriguing to people that there are differences, but
people use it as a prop”. But while Cameron is probably right that it is
extremely hard to prove in a scientific way that there are differences
between men and women in the way that they argue, it is also unlikely that
anyone will ever be able to show conclusively that there are no differences.
So as long as men and women are still arguing, researchers and writers and
psychobabblers will continue to argue about how they are arguing.
And on that note I am going to withdraw from this particular discussion.
Are you aware of PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOUR / PERSONALITY DISORDER? Worth reading about!! It destroys any attempt to build a loving relationship and ignorance makes both parties wonder what on earth is going on.... It takes two to tango - solutions ask for attitude changes, new habits.......
Tessa, Brisbane, Australia
"And why oh why do women save up every little thing that has ever annoyed them and roll it out in every argument from now until the end of time?"
Because you tuned us out, didn't listen, and refused to do anything about a problem the FIRST 2000 TIMES we asked you to.
r, Leeds,
I think if a man really loves a woman, she will die for him , and she will not strat any arguments thats for sure, so treat your women correctly and you will be always fed and happy.
Gina, Vancouver, Washington
Whether it's the fault of how Mr. Whitworth wrote the article I don't know, but I do not buy at all that the Papuan example provided by Prof. Cameron is a data point against the conventional wisdom that men & women argue differently. It seems to me to be one supporting it in my mind. After all the women gets to emote, emote, emote!! and the man gets to be simply silent. The cultural difference would seem to lie in that the women gets to be clearly ritually dominant in the situation, but both spouses are acting out in a completely traditional way as this essay defines it.
This is a short essay and I am sure Prof. Cameron would say there is more to the story, but the older I get the more skeptical I am of those who claim that gender differences are mostly a matter of cultural difference (rather than the way those differences are channeled which is totally determined culturally). Those of us living it out day-to-day, and not a few researchers, have come to a different conclusion.
Jay, Tallahassee, USA
When I get a call from my Ex Wife I actually feel ill. This is because it always ends up in an argument, an argument that goes no where. She does not know how to argue if I say black she feels compelled to say white.
Ultimately she gets personal, insults me etc...That’s when I bring out the big gun, Truth. Not perceived truth slanted with personal agenda but real undisputable truth, gets her every time. I stay calm and resite the truth until the weight of it beats her back and she withdraws.
Not perfect but gets me through until the next round. (Ding, ding)
John E, Brisbane, Australia
People became like robotics. The brain washed, the women left the instincts (we call that sense)
Hana Ganor, Haifa, Israel
The difference is not in how men and women argue, but in what makes them start an argument. Females have always some kind of hidden agenda. And wild hormonal...surges more or less regularly.
T.S., Sherman Oaks, CA
While there may be some small biological bias that affects argument strategies, I think the determining factor is upbringing - we tend to copy what our parents did.
That's one theory. I have another theory to explain how men and women argue, which I prefer: People are idiots!
Ford, Sydney,
Clearly most of us don't have enough time to investigate topics before coming to 'definite' conclusions, Still, IF anyone was interested in following up on the relevant evidence, Jessel and Moir's book, "Brainsex" would be as good a starting point as any. As the authors say, nothing in it is new -- simply a summary of long available evidence re the innate difference between male and female brains which (undersstandably) tends to be 'overlooked' in our current P.C. world.
Then again, who's interested these days in uncovering such embarrassing data?
Norman Hanscombe, Australia,
Cameron is simply wrong. The cliches are generally right. Women do want more the endless exploration of relationship, the hope of making it all better through talking about it. And men more want the validation of knowing that what they have given is alright.
Men and women also generally talk about different kinds of things.
Exceptions of course abound, but on the whole and as a rule Men are from Mars, and Women from Venus.
Shalom Freedman, Jerusalem , Israel
I think that Tim has a point. If you are a man you have been in fights as a child and the prelude is often a violent argument. Men tend to see verbal agression as a warm up for violence and so learn to back off or try to keep things light. If you do this you feel that you are treating your girlfriend/wife well by backing off. Women tend not to see the behaviour this way, as they can argue quite harshly without wanting to hit each other.
Patrick , Ottawa ,
How much credibility can one give to a marriage counselor who describes men with the word "blokes"? Is this more evidence of the dumbing down of the English language? Or the raising up of the inarticulate and uneducated as the social ideal? Good grief, woman!
Candace Bowen, Washington, DC
Please ignore Mr. Raghuvanshi's comments above. As a practicing Hindu and some one with knowledge of Hinduism I would argue that his view is entirely one sided. It is only in a single Hindu text (the Manusmriti) where one would find concrete recommendations that women be oppressed and beaten. Hinduism like most world religions is patriarchal so a certain amount of sexism is inherent. However I would take exception to the expectation that the women's role is that of complete submission to her husband. In fact one of our most popular and widely worshiped Goddess is Durga who cut off the head of a monster and in a different incarnation (as Kali) defies her husband to root out evil from the world. Of course this is not pertinent to the article but I felt compelled to clarify so that Western readers are not misled by the comment from Mr. Raghuvanshi.
On a different note I think this is a wonderful article that throws much needed light on the different approaches that men and women take.
Sree, Green Bay, WI
Men can be just as trivial as women, R LaBonte. The problem is that society says it's acceptable for men to call women's feelings trivial. It is an ugly trait that some men have developed to make themselves seem superior.
What a small man you must be to read your own faults and not recognize them. Or worse, proudly display them. Silence is not honorable.
That said, both sexes can use horrible tactics. And women can lose focus on what's important, only thinking about how they feel. Surprise: men do this too! Anyone can use withdrawal, aggression or manipulation in an argument. One tactic is not "less bad" than another. The hardest thing to do is care about the resolution, and not just making yourself feel better. You have to look beyond the pleasure yelling and controlling offer.
Not PMSing, Chicago,
Hilarious, as most of the quotes are grotesquely biased against males. Has anyone ever considered that these female complaints are indeed trivial? Try this ladies: stop complaining, stop trying to change him, accept him for who he is, be loving and complimentary. Be thankful that he refuses to get bogged down in your latest crusade to make the world a perfect place. The one nugget of truth in the piece: it really is about power and control. Please spare us the twaddle about feelings.
R LaBonte, Sacramento, CA
This essay is not about science. Not a single biologist is interviewed. Believe it or not, there is actual biology at work in the way men and women argue. For those interested, listen to the Radio Lab podcast frm WNYC on Stress.
Beragon, Austin, Texas
In tradinational Hindu society religion granted more power to man, woman`role is only obdidnent. That is why in quarrel man bit to woman .and woman accept this is her fate, if man did not bit his wife his positon is low in the eyes of Hindu man and woman.In traditional Hindu society diviorce is very rear and mostly taken by man but never by woman
As now education increase woman know her right diviorce increased but there is great guilty feeling in woman.Society always blame to woman for diviorce.
Ramesh Raghuvanshi, Pune 411030, Maharastra[India]
I do not recognise my relationship in any of this analysis, but I can say that if anything, I withdraw and avoid confrontation, not my boyfriend. Ineveitably this leads to an arguement, as apparently that means I don't care enough about the relationship to argue. I have never heard my parents argue, while his fought constantly until their divorce, and after. Surely too much emphasis is being placed on arguing as a means to a "healthy" relationship. In reality, fighting is damaging, draining and ultimately leads to unhappiness. Anger is natural, but walking away until a rational discussion can be had is less stressful and ultimately teaches you that you can't always get what you want and you certainly can't change people.
Lizzie Kaye, London, London
I find it hard to believe that the way in which men and women argue with one-another are so different. This is certainly not my experience with my partner. He is just as likely to raise issues as I am, listens, talks, and never withdraws. He doesn't need to win, but that doesn't mean he always loses either. And I certainly do not 'lose my grip on logic' or try to manipulate him by getting angry or lying simply because I happen to be female!
What is wrong with you people?
Maybe this is because we are quite a young (both in our early twenties) and, as it's suggested in the article, my partner is "more willing to engage with their feelings, keen to understand them and talk about them" instead of simply dismissing all the issues and disengaging with the arguement.
R, London,
What I see the differnce between men and women in arguments is that (as mentioned in the article) men prefer to be silent for most part of the argument. Because the next word he utters is the cause for the beginning of the next argument.
And, women pour out all of their frustration in the argument and they forget about it after that, whereas men keep the situation in thier minds and are emotionally effected by it for a long time.
Moses, Hyderabad, India
What a man wants to hear from a woman during an argument:
"yes, you have a good point there. I dont necessarily agree, but I can see where you're coming from. As an alternative, how about..."
What a woman wants to hear from a man:
??????
Moin, Croydon, UK
I was sitting at breakfast with my wife the other day, when all of a sudden i blurted out: "You've ruined my life, you b...." What i meant to say was "Could you pass the butter over please darling."
Carlo Van Hinsk, London, UK
Bemused of Christchurch does quite a good job of proving most men's comments posted here. "Men are too black and white, maybe too egocentric or just plain lazy". Straight to the intentionally wounding sarcasm with no aim to address any point made previously. Is there a clearer demonstration available? Apparently men must adjust to a woman's viewpoint but the reverse most definitely isn't required.
Men tend to be `black and white' as their perspective is to view situations from a logical viewpoint, to argue and seek solutions accordingly. Most men's experience is that an argument on that basis isn't the point. It generally seems to be revenge for the man not being precisely what the woman thinks she deserves, whilst having the right to offer him just what she thinks he ought to want, no matter what he does want. Yes evolution does happen. Civilised society evolved from unthinking emotionalism to the rule of reason. Perhaps Bemused will evolve from being catty one day. Any bets?
Jim Dandring, Droitwich,
I know this is a fluff piece to begin with, but any sense of credibility it may have had to begin with completely disappear with the uncritical mention of John Gray, a self-help guru who calls himself a Doctor. He rarely mentions that his PhD was received at Columbia Pacific University[, a non-accredited distance education institution that was forced to close in 2001 when the California Department of Consumer Affairs obtained a court judgment that found that the school "awarded excessive credit... to many students" and "failed to meet various requirements for issuing Ph.D. degrees."
His theories are just as bogus as his degree, but he spins a lovely yarn - without a shred of scientific evidence. Kool-aid for the mind.
Bobby Frees, Toronto, ON, Canada
Arguements are normlly about control,not mars and venus nonsense- that's more to do with precondiioned cultural steriotypes and patterns of behaviour- if a guy breaks down and cries,tries to use his looks, finds some/any point from history to bolster and manipulate his point,he would be thought of as crazy.If a girl does this then it's seen as proactive and acceptable.But,if a girl takes the seemingly more male approach,and tries to find a clear logical reasoned way,argue rationally;she's seen as being clear and level headed.Arguements are a win-win situation the majority of the time for women in western cultures.It's not an equal playing field,as they have both equality (act like a man) or chivalry to play with (make men act like a gentleman),while men have to respond at best.Men generally don't control arguements,so when you've already lost before it's began it's easier to walk away; either that or treat them as an equal and regret it afterwards-doesnt mean they can't be good though
mogg, newcastle, uk
In my experience it goes something like:
Me: I'm upset because <x> and...
Him: <sarcastic denial of events>
Me: Let me finish, I....
Him: <talks over, mimics, patronises, denials of reality>
Me: Let me speak....No, I didn't say that, no I never said that either, no that's not the point, no
Him: <talks over and over and over, I didn't, I never, I haven't>
Yes, the conversation invariably turns to the way we're arguing within seconds. What I find so frustrating is that I don't understand why men go into instant denial about actual events (and I don't mean a subjective take on events, I mean actual facts) and the argument becomes a furious court-case type scenario proving that something is true first. Then they don't let you speak, so they're ranting on and on against something that hasn't been said or expressed that's made up in their head. And always hours/days later when things have cooled off, they admit that the fact is true and say they couldn't listen. How to stop this?
Laura Roberts, London, UK
Either I have been incredibly unlucky, or the men here are fibbers. As I have never ever had a partner who "likes to discuss things calmly and rationally". The last one said he didn't like to argue. When it came to a situation for this to be tested I didn't see the calm discussion I had thought he meant, instead he walked out the room with "you talk, I'm off, not listening." And that was problem resolution for him. Other partners have been patronising in the extreme, blatantly rude, talking over me, sarcastic, the dreadful "sigh.... go on then, you wanted to talk, now talk!" whilst they turn their back on me to pick up their socks, read a magazine or open their gas bil and examine it in detail. It's got the stage now where on a first date, I look at the man and wonder "how will you argue", and I wonder how awful this date will make me feel in the future and if I get a glimpse of anything that might suggest he won't argue constructively, I'm out of there. It's come to this.
Helen E., London, UK
If it helps, guys, I'm a woman who is sometimes at a loss talking to women too. My mother does not ask questions, she asks about a possible answer to her question, so 'what do you keep in this bowl' really means 'where shall I put the fruit we just bought'. (I was immensly proud of myself for decoding that one, although it took me nearly a minute.) I suspect a lot of women do that, as in 'would you like x for dinner tonight' which means means there is an earlier unsaid question, ie 'would I like x for dinner tonight, yes I would, so now I'll ask him'.
I may have a 'masculine' brain in that I'm a problem solver rather than an empathiser. That said, I had a good grip on a bloke's throat one time, I could see him drawing breath to do his 'be reasonable' speech...
Diane, Sutton,
I am woman.
In my experience (and I am of Baby Boomer age) the comfort level of a man's male identity comes out in an argument. In other words, if a man is secure in his male gender he generally will not have to "prove" his superiority by believing he is right and "the little lady" is obviously illogical and irrational - so why bother engaging in battle? Women's reaction is to get frustated and emotional. Girls - quit it. It's a male thingy. They do it even with other men - it's the "I'm bigger and better than you are" syndrome. Some male egos are more confident in there "maleness" and don't feel the need to prove anything. This type of male behavior was needed in the earlier evolution process; but as someone said earlier - evolution happens - and communication will improve as both genders evolve.
pati, Columbus, USA
These comments dispel the theory that "Cultural differences are much bigger than gender differences". Responses from Chicago, NY, California, Australia, NZ etc all reinforce the gender differences.
Then there's Bemused from C/Church offering the theory that perhaps men are "just plain lazy". As the majority of contribution are from men it not only endorses the idea that men want to better understand what they can do but also highlights the fact that we make the effort. While one woman is hoping that evolution will help! Let's add the biological case. frequently (periodically!) I'm faced with a completely irrational argument from nowhere that cannot be reasoned with - gender difference.
I'm currently trying to explain to my 18 year old that he'll never understand the reasoning of a woman. I'll probably never stop trying. But my final word is to refute the idea that it's just sex that stops us from arguing to the end. When its goes well a loving man / woman partnership is unbeatable
Bob Griffin, Solihull, England
Most men can't see a larger pattern over time. Women can. Men tend to be very tactical and are more apt to focus on one thing at a time, which is how they are built (smaller corpus collosum). Anyway, I am used to hearing people say men are rational. However, my experience has taught me that they tend to lack basic logic when arguing. They tend to say point C caused A. This does not make sense. Taking a lover's reaction and using it to justify unlvoing or disrespectful behaviors is just wrong. Resorting to classifying all women to the PMS excuse is wrong and displays a lack of courage to face the truth. How about we realize what century we are living in and start delivering what we all expect. Plain and simple. It is the Golden Rule. You treat people the way you want to be treated. I could care less about gender differences without a solution or understanding.
Smarty Jones, Cleveland , OH
Sometime men just can't win. Many years ago I happened to find my wife's unlocked diary under our sofa. I immediately called to her and gave it to her. I was a prince among men! She was so happy that I had respected her privacy and chose not to read her 'secret' thoughts. The praise and sex to follow were wonderful.
Two days later (after talking to a few of her lady friends) she confronts me again about the diary. This time I am a loathesome ass, who didn't care enough about her intermost feelings to even bother to read her diary. I was now an uncaring twit.
Needless to say, I did withdraw from this skirmish...I was surrounded! I had hoped that my silence would carry me back to that 'prince among men' status. It took many months and gifts to get back to that high place again.
I remembered something I did learn in Las Vegas, "When the game is fixed, DON'T PLAY" I live by this now.
Bill, Dallas, USA
Frustrated of Chicago:
Bless...you're really trying hard, aren't you? :) Your partner's lucky! As I was reading your tick list, I passed through admiration to perplexity at why all you do doesn't work. Then, the flash! You're thinking like a Man. And not a Woman.
Mars and not Venus. It's true, we actually ARE different. I tried it after reading the first book and it works. (I'm female)
I was once recommended to : Look like a girl. Act like a woman. And think like a man. It works. Trouble is, men keep insisting on thinking like a man too, because most men are arrogant, and can't be bothered to find out how women really think. I feel another argument coming on .......
HPK, Thtcham, UK
Hi Sharon. We'd all like to see some comments from women.
But none of us are that naive.
Tim, Camberley,
I want to know why a debate that involves both sexes ends up being (mainly) negatively focussed on men? Don´t men have a right to disengage as much as the women have the right to instigate?
Metro, London, UK
given the tone of the comments in the article, mostly by women, it's not surprising more men have responded here - firstly because men are being criticised (again) and secondly because women are probably on the hello! website or viewing the hunks in trunks article and fantasising.
there are two major problems arguing with women. either they don't know what they want or when you give them what they want, they decide they don't like it after all. I never withdraw from arguments with my wife because I am frightened of my temper, but merely because there aren't enough hours in the day to waste time in what is ultimately a pointless exercise. for sure, withdrawing suggests I "don't care", (a ridiculous accusation; it's precisely because I do care).
women don't want to solve problems, they want to win arguments. they want control. men just want them to shut up. they say hurtful things and, more importantly, they remember hurtful things being said. women are from pluto.
jem, london, uk
Referencing John Gray on a topic like this is like referencing a blind man on the colors of the sunset.
The guys has been exposed as a fake, and isn't even a real Dr., JUST like Dr. Phil.
Just because his books sold a lot of copies, doesn't mean he's right, or good. After all, the Pet Rock sold a lot too.
Capt. Spastic, Austin, TX
I also find it interesting that the majority of comments are from men bemoaning their lot, while simultaneously blaming women in general or feminist bias in specific. Given how many men seem to agree that whatever the problem is, it isn't them, I'd say it's them.
Noman, Oakland, CA
I'm a woman and I think the biggest differences in argument style are determined by how rational the players feel.
People who focus on problem-solving tend to have fewer arguments and to have them settled more quickly and more usefully. Other people use fighting as a way to emotionally manipulate people or to focus attention on themselves. These people aren't really looking for solutions, they just enjoy the high drama.
Withdrawing from a no-win, pointless argument seems like a smart solution to me. All to often the urge to "communicate" degenerates into the urge to inflict pain during a fight. It's a lot easier to make up for a silence than to make up for an insult.
Terry, Denver,
Is this Comments section a spooky role reversal or what?
Almost all the comments are from guys who feel the need to explain their (remarkably similar) points of view, while the women have withdrawn from combat..
Could this be because it's so much easier to sustain an irrational rant verbally than in writing?
Ian, London, UK
Hmm....Interesting to note that most comments are from men who get defensive justifying their behavior.....would like to see some viewpoints from women as well
sharon, NY,
My problem is firstly that I tend to be right (mostly due to the fact that I won't allow an argument to happen unless i'm pretty sure I can win it) combined with the fact that I am an excellent debater.
Usually this means I infuriate the woman because I quickly show that her argument has about as much substance as scotch mist.
Over the years I've learnt to hide my intelligence and let the girl win, because otherwise I'm on the sofa.
Chris, Sydney,
Georgie of Toronto you are not alone...
Funny how most of the comments are from men!?
David, Perth, Australia
I was always told there's no point having a battle of wits with an unarmed man, I suppose this applies to women also.
Paul, Redcar,
Interesting that all the comments are from men? Wonder why that is? As you can see I am using rhetorical questions, which probably means I am about to be irrational & emotional & that the men will be in a "no win" situation. Maybe its just that men are too black & white, maybe too egocentric or maybe just plain lazy? Afterall discussion ie talking around the topic/contentious issue requires seeing shades of grey, empathising with another person's viewpoint and examining possible alternative solutions. Never mind blokes - you'll get there one day. Evolution happens eventually.
Bemused, Christchurch, NZ
Agree with all of the above! I learnt very quickly that my wife would remember for 20 years or more things that I said in the heat of the moment( I didnt even remember what the 'moment' was..) and she was just as angry now as she was then - this is not a one off thing! So imagine what it does to a long term relationship if she actually accumulates all that bile? Scary. So say nothing whatsoever and she can only be frustrated by you 'not communicating' and nothing goes in the memory bank for later recall- general dissatisfaction about my lousy communication skills sure but thats better than total recall!
hubby, sydney, Australia
I agree with most of the comments here. I'm willing to calmly, logically, and fairly discuss anything with my wife, as long as it takes to reach a compromise. I don't have to be right all the time, and I have no problem apologizing for when I'm proven wrong. But what invariably happens is her logic disappears thirty seconds into the conversation. She's obviously upset, and I desperately want to resolve the conflict, but it's downright impossible when nothing she's saying makes sense. We argue for hours, and through the whole thing, I have no clue what her point is, or what she wants me to do about it.
I've tried restating my position (didn't work), listening without speaking (didn't work), leaving the room (didn't work), apologizing, agreeing with everything she says, etc, I'm still at a loss for how to defuse the situation.
Tim from Portland hit the nail on the head -- often I end up feeling so angry and violent, I withdraw to prevent myself from doing something I'd regret.
Frustrated, Chicago, USA
The oddest of things is that Cameron states her opinion that there are no differences between the way men and women argue, quoting the single example of Gatun, which contradicts her conclusion and bears up those of most of the people posting comments here. Does that woman's response seem like a logical and rational response to the situation or an excessively emotional response, bordering on hysterical? Does the man behave the same? I think many men would recognise the situation, as most previous responders have. It seems that Rupert Murdoch professorships bear a marked similarity to his tabloids. Men do often get defensive in arguments with women because women so often rapidly resort to vicious manipulative comments designed to undermine everything about him. There's an old joke about "I married Miss Right. It wasn't until I got married I realised her first name was Always". Cameron needs to get out more to where real people are and stop reading that 70's feminist cant.
Jim Dandring, Droitwich,
Surely the reason a man withdraws from an argument is due to the fact that he stands a better chance of having sex in the near future than he would if he carries on arguing. And as sex is the only reason men bother with relationships in the first place, I'm surprised so many people feel the need to express their over-complicated opinions.
James Hodgson, Liverpool,
A little off-topic geography remark :
The article mentions "a woman in a tribal village in Africa" towards the end, I think referring to the first sentence of the article mentioning "a remote village on the Sepik River in Papua New Guinea".
Papua New Guinea is actually located right off the northern Australian coast, not in Africa...
However, Guinea (the "old" one) is located in Africa...
Sebastien, Montreal, Canada
Sounds like a load of post-feminist meanderings to me.
David Hill, Hereford,
The book 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' does a beautiful job of explaining the different ways that men and women handle problems. There is a definite God created way that each gender does this.
John - Abilene, Tx
John, Abilene, Tx
Is there not a relationship between male "withdrawing" behaviour and male aggression (although men hardly have a monopoly on that)? I think the former is a tactic to deliberately avoid the latter: I'm getting angry, this isn't going to help, best thing is to withdraw for a bit and calm down. Simple as that.
Presuambly the reason this hypothesis has not been raised is that men are widely regarded as emotional cripples in the "relationship business" so a male demonstration of self-knowledge is seen as unlikely.
Rob, Birmingham,
The reason why men walk away from an argument is simple. Take one example. I trim branches on a garden tree because some are growing out of shape. Wife says, (as if I do things in my sleep,) " I see you've been cutting branches off that tree again ! Yes, say I, its growing out of shape. Wife "there's no need to keep chopping at it every year" My reply, " You go to the hairdressers and have your hair cut once a week, or once a month for all I know, because it grows out of shape." Wife, " " that's different " . The difference is, if she thinks its OK, its OK. If I think its OK, it isn't OK. She's been doing this for 43 years and will never accept that I don't take a scrap of notice, she's programmed to do it until her last breath !
Phil de Buquet, Newport, England
The article well points out that each argument move quickly from arguing about facts to argue about the argument. How can men avoid withdrawing when the argument moves away from facts to concentrate on personal attacks, and in many cases, reenacting old arguments happened even years before? Men understand quickly that the argument is going nowhere and for the sake of avoiding escalating the confrontation they withdraw.
Giulio, Los Angeles, California
It's all upbringing: if you raise your child to believe that they will be more successful at "winning" if they remain calm, no matter how intense their feelings, then you are more likely to end up with people who know how to argue effectively without resorting to tantrums and name-calling. Withdrawing for a few minutes to calm down is quite healthy, and then you can both sit down to evaluate whether you can reach a compromise that suits you both. You don't have to be any particular gender to achieve that.
Jo, Cambridgeshire, uk
Between PMSing, and later menopause, I have had lots of experience with one wife and one mother and "arguments". They get angry, manipulative and lie, anything to win and gain control. It is quite often impossible to have a discussion about a topic because often a common sense result is not what they want. What they want is to be right and the male to be beaten, it is quite often just a more agressive version of nagging.
This is not to say women do not have reason to be angry from time to time with their male partner or son, but their typical methods of handling it ultimately result in alienation. I have little idea of what the rest of the men out there go through, but that is my experience.
georgie, Toronto, Canada
Men are problem solvers, if there's a problem we like to fix it. Women don't seem to want to do so, they want men to empathise with them, and then feel as though we aren't listening when we're trying to help. What we men don't understand is why you would want some problem to drag on ad infinitum. And why oh why do women save up every little thing that has ever annoyed them and roll it out in every argument from now until the end of time? Let it go already.
Dr. Mars, Mars, UK,
There's only two ways to argue with women -- and neither of them work -- so why bother?
Peter Stanbridge, Toronto, Canada
I am full agree with this study. I studied the psychology of men and women and I wrote an article in French about divorce, that has helped some partners to prevent a rupture.
Man and woman are not identical, and do not think the same way about the live and how to solve problems.
Most people don't take this sexual difference into account it affects all our live, and all the time, in all our decisions..
More, if you are single, you cannot apply to your new partner what you learnt from the previous one. You have to set your counter at zero each time you encountred a new partner to prevent misleadings and mistakes.
If you cannot be in the mind of your partner, you can however help him/her to understand your behaviour in speaking with him/her. Seduction is still the best solution but not easy to apply in such circumstances.
Discussion is the most important. Don't imagine that your partner understand you as you expect if you don't speak with him/her. It is the best way to create dispute
Thierry, Luxembourg,
Anyone, male or female, who enters an argument looking for a win is already in a doomed relationship.
A relationship that will be enduringly satisfying for both the partners is one where arguments are entered with both seeking a no-lose/no-lose - the perfect outcome being a heightened understanding of what has caused the argument that leads to a compromise.
It doesn't always work, but it works more often than not.
Tim, Camberley,
I bet she's a great cook!
Ed Zuiderwijk, Cambridge, UK
Early in our marriage we got into a couple of serious arguments. We both escalated in an effort to win. Soon my brain felt like it was going to explode. In one case I broke a window, in another I broke a door. I started walking away our of fear of my own anger. I had been too intellectual, but my brain gradually developed the capacity to hand intense emotional confrontation better. We went through a phase of expressing our feelings with intensity while avoiding escalation. That was not very satisfying. But we have grown. Thirty seven years now, and getting better.
Whether we are good or bad at communication, our brains can develop and we can change. Isn't that the secret of relationship? . . . we allow our differences to change us.
Dale R Evans, Los Gatos, California / USA
At the esoteric level I'm sure we'd all like to improve the cross-gender relationship. Lost causes I have known ...
Andrew Milner, Yokohama, Japan
I think there's in some cases a systemic anti-male bias with councillers. Christine Northam seems to exemplify this. She voices a good vernacular of "reasonableness" but by god as a man I'd hate to have her as a councillor. Accoridng to her Men are more controlling, resort to aggression more quickly, are more dismissive, always want to be right.......the usual panalopy of male devilry in other words.
John Hockey, Brighton, UK
This is something I know very well from my last relationship! The reason I withdrew was that it didn't seem to matter which option I took. Responding caused an explosion, withdrawing did too. Withdrawing just seemed easier. In my experience (sorry for offending all women!) women quickly loose grip on logic when they get agitated and that makes them almost impossible to argue with. Arguments must follow logic and if they don't, withdrawing from them is what men do as a response. I think the old cliché of women being emotional and men rational may have a kernel of truth. When things heat up these different "styles" clash. In a heated argument men see three options: Agree with everything (be reasonable as women call it), be drawn into a pointless fight (from their point of view) or stay silent. Silence from a man in an argument means he thinks arguing is pointless the way it's being approached by the woman. It's a sign he feels he can't talk to her like a reasonable human being.
Richard, Reykjavik/NY,
Here's why men withdraw from raging women. If a man treated us in that manner we would punch his lights out. However, since it's taboo to hit a woman, we withdraw in such a situation so as to avoid any possibility of hitting them. Few men want to spend the night in jail and end up with a criminal record.
Tim, Portland, USA