Clare Francis
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HOMEOWNERS have good reason to feel confused. Last week Halifax said house prices fell 0.5% in October, a week after Nationwide said they rose 1.1%.
Economists say it is not unusual to get conflicting data in the dying days of a property boom, and most agree the underlying picture is one of slowing growth.
Halifax said that the annual growth rate eased to 8.9% last month, the lowest this year, and expects it to drop further in the coming months.
The big question, then, is not if the market is slowing, but whether prices will fall across the country next year.
At this crucial time, we invited a panel of experts into The Sunday Times offices to discuss the outlook for the market. Here are their views.
Kathryn Cooper, Money editor: Nationwide’s figures were unexpectedly strong. Is the slowdown happening?
Fionnuala Earley, Nationwide: We were quite surprised to see growth of 1.1% in October, which took the annual rate from 9.3% to 9.7%, but I don’t think you should put too much emphasis on one month’s figure. The underlying data confirms that the market is slowing, and we think growth will be about 6.5% by the end of the year.
Simon Rubinsohn, Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors: New-buyer inquiries have been declining for 10 months and our latest figures found that the number of surveyors reporting falls in house prices increased by 14.6% in September – the fastest decline for two years. The last survey was also quite interesting because it picked up some weakness in London, which hitherto has been a very strong area.
If you look at the number of sales compared with the stock on estate agents’ books, though, things look much more stable. Sales are falling but supply is falling at a faster rate and that is underpinning the market.
A slowdown is inevitable because higher interest rates will drag down year-on-year growth, but supply issues suggest one shouldn’t get overly bearish; price falls are unlikely.
Yolande Barnes, Savills: I would agree that weakness is coming through in central London, which is an inevitable consequence of the sort of shock we’ve had with Northern Rock and the global credit crunch. The central London market tends to spike down sharply in response to something like that.
It happened back in 1998 after the Russian debt crisis, after the first war with Iraq in 1990, and after September 11. It is because of the highly discretionary nature of the purchases that take place in prime central London. City analysts are marking down property across the board, and I think they are marking it down in their own portfolios.
We think the prime market could fall 3% before the end of the year, though we still think it will end next year up about 5%.
There is a real divide between the City bonus boys who buy prime properties and overseas investors who buy super-prime – that is properties worth more than £4m. That market is still pretty strong: our agents are doing a lot of deals at that end.
Liam Bailey, Knight Frank: I think all the markets will slow in terms of house growth, but I think deal volumes are where we will really see things change. Three or four months ago people wanted to buy no matter what. The situation now is completely different – people are looking for a reason not to buy.
If there is the slightest problem with a property, people will walk away. The only exception is with very desirable properties, which are still selling well and seeing competitive bidding. Properties spoiled in any way, by say road noise, are very hard to sell.
Sellers don’t want to take a hit, so unless they have to move they will just take their property off the market if they can’t get the price they want. This is what we saw in 2004-5 when the market was last weak. Prices are flattening because purchasers think the ball is in their court, but vendors aren’t willing to take a hit. You reach a stand-off, and we think we’ll see more of that.
Cooper: So will it be a buyer’s or seller’s market?
Bailey: The power is now with the purchaser but only to the extent that the vendor wants, or has, to sell. What’s been happening in London for the past two years has just been odd – it’s not normal to put your house on the market and sell within a week. But it takes time to adjust: people will have to get their heads round the fact that you have to work quite hard at getting a deal.
Cooper: What does all this mean for next year?
Earley: In 2004, activity really slowed down, but then things picked up when the Bank of England cut interest rates in August 2005. We’re in a different position now. Affordability is worse than it was then, so I don’t expect prices to rebound even if interest rates are cut next year. We’re forecasting growth to be broadly flat next year and then reach an equilibrium level where they grow in line with earnings at around 3% to 3.5% a year.
Rubinsohn: If we do get a slowdown in house-price growth and then we see an interest-rate cut or two, it could provide the impetus for an upturn.
Kelvin Davidson, Capital Economics: The recent interest-rate rises are still filtering through so we think sales and turnover will still be weak in 2008 and expect prices to fall by an average of 3%. We’re not talking all-out disaster though – the difference between zero and minus 3% is not a lot. In the context of gains of 60% over the last five years, are people really going to panic if prices drop slightly? We don’t believe so.
If you look back to 2004-5, transactions plummeted but prices didn’t fall. This time things are different because affordability is more of an issue and there are question marks over the impact the credit crunch will have on the sub-prime market.
We are already seeing some lenders tightening their criteria and if people find they are unable to get a mortgage, it could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. The forces are building for something worse than zero growth.
Bailey: I just can’t see how house prices can fall significantly. We all know housing in this country is expensive, but without a significant catalyst, what is there to move us from where we are now? It took a recession for prices to fall in the 1990s.
In 2004 all the things were there to suggest we would see a significant downturn, but it didn’t happen because people remained positive about the long-term outlook for property. The problem in the UK is that we have a severe shortage of supply and as long as that remains, house prices will be well underpinned.
Rubinsohn:I agree. I think the risks are skewed to the upside and that house prices could be higher this time next year.
Barnes: If you monitor house-price changes at a local level, the slowdown has already begun. We think prices nationally will rise by 3% next year, but the Midlands and the north will see increases of only 0.5% and they could see falls in the first half of the year.
Earley: Our latest regional figures showed prices fell slightly in Wales between June and September, and barely moved in the Midlands and north. I think that will continue next year.
Some areas are more vulnerable than others. Northern Ireland, for example, could be at risk of falls because it has risen so strongly recently and I think a lot of that has been overexuberance. The north has also done badly this year. It’s been up and down and that volatility could continue.
Cooper: Isn’t the great unknown the credit crunch? What if lenders rein back in a big way, and people can’t borrow?
Ray Boulger, John Charcol: Relatively few lenders have openly tightened their criteria. A few have pulled out of the 100% market, and Norwich & Peterbor-ough will now only lend up to 90% of the property’s value.
The other main changes have been in the new-build flat market, where lenders want bigger deposits. People with very poor credit histories may find they are unable to remortgage when they come to the end of their current deal. Their only option will be to go to the lender’s standard variable rate, which among sub-prime lenders is now often above 10%.
Many of these borrowers won’t be able to afford repayments at this level, leaving them at risk of repossession.
Cooper: Where are interest rates going?
Davidson:Any chance of another rate rise this year has gone now. We are forecasting Bank rate at 5% by the end of 2008, but I think the risks remain on the upside. The Bank can’t risk inflaming inflationary pressures.
Boulger: Our forecast is for Bank rate to be 5.25% at the end of next year, but I think it could go lower. The full impact of the US mortgage crisis has not yet been seen and I think there is still bad news to come out. If the credit crunch continues beyond the middle of next year, interest rates could fall below 5.25%.
Cooper: So should homeowners and investors prepare for several years of low growth?
Barnes:That’s the big question. Will we continue to see periods of hills and troughs or will that be replaced by lower, steady rates of growth? We think house-price inflation will average 4.2% per annum over the next five years.
Growth will be held back by affordability factors and I think households will want to take the opportunity to rebuild their “comfort cushion” as many have very little surplus income left each month after housing costs.
However, there is a big potential derailer to this scenario and that is supply. If we fail to resupply the market, prices may rise sharply again. We are still looking down the barrel of a gun because of the mismatch between supply and demand.
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Thank you for your comments, very well thought out.
I suppose that leaves one final question.
Mr A bought recently
Mr B remortgaged to the hilt recently.
Mr C bought a long time ago and never remortgaged.
Are there more Mr C's than Mr A and Mr B's?
I'd guess considerably less, enough to drive the housing market to a virtual stand still?
Dominic, Manchester, UK
All your expert commentators have failed to give enough prominence to the great unknowns. These are the future factors which will have a greater effect on house prices than any anecdotal stories of what is happening now. The effect of numerous articles like this is to make first time buyers, who underpin the whole housing market, stop and think. Why saddle yourself with an enormous life long debt to buy something which might go down in value? As time goes on and people watch the incredible - house prices start to drift downwards then they simply won't buy until rock bottom. Then there all those empty unsold flats and all those BTL investors who will take advantage of the changes in capital gains tax after April to unload on to the first time buyer market. Brown is desperate for a policy success and he has already offered financial incentives to local authorities to identify and zone more land for building - for first time buyers. This incompetence will result in heavy falls.
Diddly Do, Liverpool,
Experts who were educated at public expense are those that purchase forged art with public money - let us blame it all on the teachers as they get blamed for everything else that is wrong. We need a recession to keep people in their place, so property prices, both commercial and domestic must fall. When prices tumble wealthy economic migrants will find buying any type of property in the UK will be beneficial. After all, we as a nation have nothing else to sell other than our houses, and we cannot expect people from less well off Eastern European families, for example, working for the minimum wage to pay our inflated prices for our homes. Do you know, we cannot sell the stuff in museums to pay for our imports because they are likely to be fakes. As for estate agents, they are no different from any other type shop keeper - you buy a house from a house shop in a similar way as you buy food from a food shop, and shoes from a shoe shop.
Donco, Eastleigh,
Oxford Don - I love your faith in government, have a look back to the late '90s and you will find that the 'prudent' chancellor sold down our gold reserves when the market was at the bottom. About $250 an ounce whereas it is now $800.
If ever there is a 'ring the bell' moment for the property market to fall it is a government announcement on increased building. As other posters have said in all seriousness where is the shortage of houses? The demand exceeding supply issue is due to speculation not fundamentals.
For what is really happening now look at www.propertysnake.co.uk! By all accounts house prices are falling and chances of a swift recovery or even a soft landing are very slim. Sadly the chance of recession because of it is not so slim.
George, london,
If prices do not fall,then there is one hell of a life facing our children.
Even a clever,well qualified person will find a loan hard to get and indeed a millstone around their neck.
"Ordinary" youngsters with average skills,who are in the great majority,are doomed to a third class style of life,with every day being a struggle.With a non working wife and 2 kids many will give up.
One needs some pleasures in life ,Just paying off a huge mortgage to live in some grotty suburb is not terribly appealing.
Well I don't think so!
nic, Royan, France
It is interesting that the Halifax today stated that high levels of employment will prevent the housing market crashing.It depends on what these jobs actually pay as millions of jobs close to the minimum wage is hardly going to pay a mortgage of say 130 K.I think that the Halifax is making a big mistake here ,because many people may actually be better off by not working.
Stephen Hulton, Eure, France
re Derek's:
Disregarding the Fat Cats,average income is ã24,000.
average property value xs 3 = ã72,000.
average price for average home= ã168,000. !!!
=96,000 write down for the banks.......
my brother managed to borrow way more than he should ever have been allowed, all so mr banker w could buy his new aston, I hope the heads start rolling!
d, london, london
Media led. Lamb mentality - strike up fear+ sell a story... change tack... now we see it's all about "Interest rates are set to tumble!'. It's fascicle. World economy rolls on in waves. Availability and new opportunities accrue. The media have really whipped this up.
nick garrett, London, uk
Oxford Don, Oxford, UK. One fatal flaw in your argument, what possible evidence do you have to assume that the government has a clue what it's doing? The usual evidence for a shortage is people going without. Where are all of these supposedly homeless people? Ask yourself one simple question, is the shoebox you live in (big or small) really worth the five or even six figure price some estate agent would put on it? Answer this honestly, would you really pay that price for it, as a home? Rather late in the day people are coming to their senses and realising that this is nothing more than a speculative bubble. As for new building, my prediction is that first the bubble will burst, forcing prices down by at least 40%. Shortly after this many of these unecessary new builds will flood the market pushing prices down even further. Great joy for first time buyers. Utter misery for property investors and others who find themselves in negative equity.
Graham, Oxford, UK
I continue to be astonished at the extent and depth of self-delusion. I can understand it from those in their 20s who, as adults, have never experienced a serious economic downturn, let alone a property crash. Does no one in their late 30s and above remember what happened last time? Remember the pain and hardship it caused? I can point you towards law cases where London properties bought in the late 1980s for 800k were being sold in the mid 90s for 350k, often after years on the market. Even the younger readers must remember the dot.com bubble bursting, share portfolios worth millions quickly fell to near zero. Luckily for me I have no vested interest either way (one property, nearly paid for) but worry about a country with such a short collective memory and many so gullible that they will sign their lives away in the mistaken belief that the good times can never end.
Graham, Oxford, UK
Nothing has changed significantly except for the MEDIA frenzy on this subject. The whole property crisis seems to be media led. I wonder if fears would subside if the media took a different spin on things 'Property set to boom' - try it.......
Virginia Ironside, Brighton, UK
If the government are pushing to build millions of new homes in the next 10-15 years, then I assume there is a demand for property. If this is the case, I would be very surprised if prices dipped substantially, and when interest rates fall next year I expect to see prices increase.
Oxford Don, Oxford, UK
Do Turkey's vote for Christmas? Are these (self interested)experts really telling what they think? Did they last time? What I do not understand is any one writing a positive comment, who are these people? Estate agents?
I for one hope prices come down, well not hope, feel 100% certain they are, will do for years and for sound reasons. The bubble has burst, debts and repayments are real with credit cards next. Next April will see a massive turning point with CGT. That was a very poor move by Darling, not that any change will help now.
T Miller, Oxted, Surrey
The houses which were selling for £135,000.00 in Peterborough in last 2-4weeks are now available at £105,000.00as i notice in our local newspaper
m.nanji, peterborough, UK
I am pleased I read this interview/article today. Last night I had a conversation with my wife just about this issue. I definetely share the opinion of most of you here. In London things won't get that bad. We had such a growth in the past years that a 3% or 5% down on prices won't hurt, in my opinion.
We have got used in selling/buying a property in a week. Now we'll have to wait for 6 months or maybe longer. And so what?
Patience is a virtue!
Ritchie Tom, London,
Henry, London. Economic trends are detrmined by events at the margins, so it only needs a relatively small proportion (not a majority) to panic sell to bring the whole market crashing down. As for vested interests trying to talk the market down, as far as I can see there are three brought categoriries of interested party. 1. Those who own a property which is paid for or where mortgage payments as a proportion of income are manageable. 2. The investor, with or without much equity, but a massive interest only mortgage debt. 3. The FTB currently living in rented property. 1. can watch disinterestedly. 3. is actually benefitting at the moment from rents which are far lower than a mortgage payment for the same property. Only 2. really needs to worry, as s/he could go from paper millionaire to bankrupt if other investors panic sell and crash the market. Every BTL investors is relying on others not to panic - the response to Northern Rock tells you why this is a bad position to be in.
Clive, Sussex, UK
Dominic,
Mrs B who lives next door and bought in 1974 for £2000 will happily sell for £80 000 before moving into a flat or retirement home. Mr A can sit happy in the knowledge that he won't sell for less that £100 000.
The Mr C who lives the other side and bought in 1985 for £20 000 sells for £75 000 to move to Spain. Mr A still sits there happy that he won't sell for less than £100 000.
Get it? Or should I mention Mr and Mrs D who are BTL investors who own the house opposite or Miss E who forecloses?
Still Mr A is still happy.
T Sparks, Romsey,
Asking "experts" from the world of real estate agents to comment on the future of house prices is akin to consulting the fox about hen house security measures,
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oscarbullion, london,
Disregarding the Fat Cats,average income is £24,000.
average property value xs 3 = £72,000.
average price for average home= £168,000. !!!
why havent you remembered me ?
derek bevan, huntingdon, England
Clive and Richard: This fear of losing out holds true if the majority of property owners are investors with owner occupiers being a minority; or if we are talking about an asset that is purely an investment vehicle like shares. But property is different, you actually derive a benefit from living in a place you own, and this has to be taken into account. So barring the British economy going into recession (a scenario where we all lose), there is no pressure for massive price falls.
Henry, London,
And those people here claiming a 40% reduction in prices surely have no vested interests, do they? Yes, no one posting here is a property "have not" hoping for outside assistance to get on the ladder. Fact of the matter is, with employment still high, population increasing, high population density, and strong building restrictions all playing factors, there are still upward pressures on the market. Yes, someone made the analogy to Japan from 1990 - 2005, but did they also mention that Japan was in a deep recession or stagnating economy in this time period? Prices will fall slightly in some regions, rise slightly in other regions, and the overall picture will be flat for the next few years. Instead of hoping for a crash (which will take the entire British economy down, so the have nots here will probably find themselves out of work), maybe these people should focus on getting themselves sorted.
Henry, London,
Dominic
How about if Mr A is a Bye-To-Letter?
Richard, Maidenhead,
Dominic, Manchester. You forget all those property investors who are in it solely for the profit. They'll sell for the same reason that investors sell shares when prices begin to fall - fear of losing out. Also, I suspect that lots of people are paying chunks of mortgage which were used to buy cars, plasma tvs and other consumable goodies. Many of these goods will be nearing the end of their lives, but will not be fully paid for another 15 years or more and the credit crunch will mean that more borrowing isn't readily available to replace them. The only way to sustain what has become the 'normal' lifestyle will be to downsize and release some equity. Anyone who thinks that a property crash this time won't happen without increasing unemployment first is deluded. We have the biggest debt mountain every seen in the uk and this causing the whole house of cards to topple around us.
Clive, Sussex, UK
Dominic,
Respectfully, if house prices tank (and will they? the jury's out), then people spend less (including on the high street and on goods and services) and that causes job losses and the reverse multiplier effect (see John Maynard Keynes' theory of the multiplier). Faced with such a change in consumer sentiment, not even Prime Minister (Crash Gordon) Brown, Unelect, will be able to stem the tide - he has fiddled himself out of a job (unless there is some further way of manipulating the figures comprising the economic cycle of course).
Pete Balchin, Solicitor , Bristol, UK
Markets will crash you say?
How?
Mr A buys a house for 100k.
Six months later, its market value is 80K.
He simply will not sell the property.
Its not that complicated
The only way that house gets on the market for less than 100k is if he loses his job and goes under
Dominic, Manchester, UK
Has anyone else noticed that those in the property business, desperately trying to disguise the news that the property crash is here, right now, manipulate the statistics by very selectively choosing the start date for their annual figures. The Halifax recently said that prices fell in October, yet many reports translated this into annual growth slowing from, say, 9% to 8.5%. Prices are not slowing, they are FALLING. If tax goes up and my take home pay falls from £2000 per month to £1900 pm I consider myself to be £100 pm worse off. I don't think, 'well my take home pay a year ago was £1800 so I'm 5% better off than I was a year ago'. Statistically, this is true, but from a day to day living point of view I'm more interested in the actual loss now. According to the Halifax, if you own a £300k house, it lost an average £1500 last month. If prices are 10% lower next year, you will have lost £30k. Everything else is lies and statistics.
George, Brighton, UK
Quite a funny read, particularly Bailey.
We have a housing stock of 26m. Assuming 1m empty properties, there are 2.4 persons per property. There are issues about location, but then how come prices rose everywhere? One property per 2.4 persons is sufficient, unless we assume that all children live on their own, there are no couples left in the country and there are not usually 4 immigrants living in one house (they are).
Support from too many people in the country relative to land/housing?... Japan had lower unemployment and interest rates AND twice the population density and similar numbers of people being added to its population in the late 1980s to the mid-1990s... that did not stop prices falling by a lot from 1990-2005.
Last year they said "in the absence of recession/ rising unemployment/ higher interest rates" repossessions could not rise. It seems these "pillars" have not held up.
Raj, London,
The prices quoted by the spread betting firms, based on the Halifax House Price Index, suggest that prices are set to fall by around 1% per quarter during 2008. In order to have obtained an objective opinion, perhaps their representatives and not those of estate agents should have been on your panel.
Peter, London SW15, UK
So all those with a vested interest in the property market say everything will be hunky dory - lower interest rates and virtually stable house prices.
Great reporting.
Thanks (not).
Gareth Jones, Walsall,
Prices are going to crash.Many of these comentators above have a vested interest in talking the market up.The whole housing market has been talked up by profit takers for the last five years.
Easy profit is now coming to an end.Their are many more credit crunch skeletons to come out of the cupboard in 2008.If easy credit is no longer available then it will give a more realistic feeling to debt and people become much more cautious about taking out huge loans.Its the ease of credit thats been keeping the housing market bouyant for five years.
Cautious borrowers tend to lever prices down and the market as a whole will feel the downward pressure on prices.This is not even taking into account the amount of BTL properties flooding back onto the market in 2008,as their fixed rates come to an end and high rates of 9% or more are the norm.House prices at present levels are unsustainable !
Geoff
Geoff, Birmingham, UK
i had mortgage offer for £137000 in june this year. if i apply today the most i can get is £110000. that is 20% reduction in credit. surely this will have an affect on houseprices!! also that is with a healthy deposit(£30000). 20- 40% reductions over next 2 years are 100% correct guaranteed!!!
martin fogg, liverpool,
"Bailey: I just canât see how house prices can fall significantly"
So much for 'expert' views - they reach about as far as the ends of their noses I think. A significant catalyst? Is the credit crunch a small short-term difficulty then? Do recessions cause prices of over-valued assets to fall, or do the conditions that cause the over-valuations (plenty of cheap money) cause falls, recessions and the rest?
Where is the money to come from to carry on supporting these inflated prices now? Perhaps these experts could answer that. I don't think so: they'll carry on with the same empty waffle that characterised their expertise in 1989.
David, Guildford,
I must agree with Richard from Poole. Inviting a panel of 'experts' (read estate agents & mortgage brokers) to tell us where the market is heading is frankly preposterous. More impartiality and honesty would be welcome in these round table discussions, with the likes of Yolande Barnes declaring their interest in a buoyant market.
Ask the folk at Moneyweek how it's done - they always seem to get the balance right.
AJ, chelmsford, essex
Lol Richard.....
As long as house prices increase, these guys will have a well paid job, so they are unlikely to say anything elseâ¦â¦â¦... Back in 2006, estates agents in the US were saying the same thing, but 12 months after the bubble popped and house prices crashed very badly (and these estates agents disappeared...). The problem here is exactly the same; the affordability is very low, the interest rates have gone up, and the credit crunch has worsened the scenario. The good thing is that irrational exuberances subsist for a short period of time only and ultimately the nature of the economy self-equilibrates itself. Houses in the UK (and in France) will be affordable again. Just be patient, the table have already turned, donât listen to these selling pyramid cheats and these manipulated TV programs that try to keep the money flowing in⦠Wait very patiently, let the prices drop 15%, then 30%, then 45%, and only then, consider making an offer.
Samuel, Paris, France
By any economic measure (rental yield or multiples of earnings houses are over priced. For me the supply argument holds very little credance. What has generated this bubble is the availability of cheap and excessive credit. As the credit crunch develops prices will inevitably fall as the excessively priced deals will not be financed.
In addition as the economy moves into a recessionary stage the demand will dampen as immigration falls and supply will increase as repossessions come to market.
david barker, maidstone,
I agree with Anthony. All of the people in this interview are being very optimistic. A few of them won't make money if the house prices do fall. They are just trying to make us believe the market is strong when even an idiot can see we are all in trouble right now.
Chris, London,
What an awful article. A pack of lies that that no editor should print. As Richard says, just vested interests talking up the market. Anyone with any sense knows the market is tanking. Even in the North London hot spots 10% reductions are de rigeur and still nobody is buying. We saw a flat yesterday that was reduced 2 days after coming on the market. And we saw it on saturday after ringing the agent 1/2 an hour beforehand. Papers should print the truth shouldn't they?
Davie P, London,
Richard, you have hit the nail on the head!
But finally people are wise to the 'weasle words' and will not buy until this things reached rock bottom. In about two years time in my opinion. Rent for now and buy later.
Tim, Aylesbury, UK
I'm seeing massive reductions in properties in Reading (South East) of 10-15% in the last couple of weeks. What people forget is property is massively overvalued and there is big room for falls back to balanced levels.
Where is this housing shortage? I see plenty of property for sale its just all unfordable. Not caused by too few houses but cheap credit and irresponsible lending.
Gavin, Reading, Berkshire
Panel of experts? They sound more like a panel of 'expert optimists'!
anthony , london, england
Nearly a third of all property sales over the last two years have been to Buy -To-Let landlords. With that market now all but gone (witness the collapsing share price of specialist BTL lenders) the downsides are much more severe than this article suggests. I think we're looking at a 20-25% nominal house price fall over the next few years, much like the 1989-95 crash. Add in inflationary price erosion and we could easily see real house prices decline by 40%, which is actually what's needed to restore house prices to historic affordability levels.
Gareth, Wokingham,
Yes, we are bound to get a totally unbiased opinion from this panel of "experts"...
James, London,
Sometimes people forget that a 10% increase on £100,000 takes it to £110,000 but a 10% decrease on £110,00 takes it to £99,000. Recent increases of 60% only require 37.5% decreases to return to the original prices.
David Green, Newark,
Your panel of experts seems to be made up entirely of people with a vested interest in the property market prices continuing to increase. Estate agents surveyors and mortgage providers are hardly likely to say anything else are they?
Richard, Poole, Dorset