Kamil Tchorek in Warsaw
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Poland’s demands for extra voting power in Europe as compensation for their war dead shocked EU leaders gathered in Brussels, but came as no surprise to its own people.
AntiGerman feeling, going back to the Second World War, runs deep in Poland and the Kaczynski twins, who hold the offices of President and Prime Minister, have used it to consolidate their support.
Their PiS Party appeals to Catholic, nationalistic and Euro-sceptic voters but their power base is narrow – they won office with a quarter of votes in the 2005 general election, when the turnout was 40 per cent.
Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the Prime Minister, said that Poland deserved a review of the proposed voting plan for EU states because “if Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, [we] would today be looking at demographics of a country of 66 million” rather than 38 million.
An opinion poll published yesterday in the Polish media showed broad support for the antiGerman stance. Piotr Buras, of the Polish Centre for International Relations, said: “Mr Kaczynski’s antiGerman remarks may appeal to conservatives and liberals alike.”
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And I entirely support the view of Ms Justyna Tarczynska. Some people here did not pay attention, that she did not claimed that her view is common for all of the Polish (as some of you claims about your opinions, isn't it too vain?).
There are some people in Poland who deeply dislike the way Polish government is dealing with foreign matters and that think, that mentioning the World War II based claims is mostly inappropriate (for me personally - ridiculous) as most of those problems were already solved and has nothing in common with "looking in the future" attitude which should govern nowadays European affairs. And finally history should be used mainly to avoid its mistakes not to reopen old wounds.
As I said earlier my opinion is not common to all Poles but some of them think similar. The national interests are important but common interests of all European countries is beneficial also for our country which some of peoples seem not to notice.
And moral rights!-not an argument!
Jaroslaw Solecki, Czestochowa, Poland
Thank you Marcin, the two things should be totally seperated!
I also agree totally: every state should have the right to bring forward their interests. That is why we talk about democracy! However democracy also means that what is going to happen is finally being decided by the majority. In this special case there were only 2 out of 27 states did not support the proposed voting system! If a majority would have been in favour of the by Poland proposed voting system, than there wouldn't have been any problem to accept that - also by the Germans, as we have been a democratic country for more than 60 years now!
The other thing is how one argues to convince others!Saying "I would rather die than not getting my will" is not a very democratic way!Secondly calculating a new number of inhabitants that one would have if something wouldn't have happend..? Every country could start calculating then, and there were many more wars even before world war 1+2.We would still be calculating in 100 years
Jan Kaletka, Braunschweig, Germany
Dear Andrzej,
you might be right in saying that Germany doesn't have the "moral right" to take a leading role in Europe. I can assure you that every German is very aware of the mistakes and misery that Germans have caused to many other people and countries. The problem is that we cannot change the past. Therefore the best thing to do is looking into the future - without forgetting what happend of course!
So, the "moral right" might not exist, however you might want to look back into the history of the European Union. The Treaty of Paris is the basis of todays European Union and was signed by France, Germany, Italy and Benelux in 1951! Therefore Germany has been working on the union for 53 years before your country even joined. I know your agruments that you didn't have the chance of joining earlier due to the German agression, which is right, but again: the past can (unfortunately) not be changed! Lets move on and try to make the best out of it for all of us!
Jan Kaletka, Braunschweig, Germany
I think that President Kaczyński is a good person and strong Polish. Fortunetly Poland won! :)
Melissa, Warsaw, Poland
Mark - you might be living in the bubble of Warsaw, which isn't the same as the rest of the country. I'm an expat and I've been living in Poland for as long as you have but my work takes me all over the country. There really are many places in Poland where the Right are very popular, and there is suspicion if not hatred of Germans and Russians. This column is true. I work in real estate and meet many Poles in the countryside really scared of the Germans taking their land back. Fear turnes into hatred. Especially after the Berlin Center for the Expelled was set up. Sad but true, and I get the impression its how the raving loony Kaczynskis got into power.
Richard Deeley, Warsaw, Poland
Dear Justyna, what is so embarrasing that you find in our government's politics on international stage? Caring for our position in Europe? The former president approach that led to Chirac's comments that we had lost our chance to stay quiet, is that what you expect?
I am not anti German, French or any other nation, I am proud that current government do not took "the second category member" approach.
Damian, Warszawa, Poland
Living in Poland for the past twelve years I cannot agree with Kamil's report at all - I have never met, in all my time here, anyone who is ant-germand in any way what so ever. The Kacynski's hold a perverted and prejudiced view largely dictated by thier mother , who was a Warsaw uprising participant against the Germans; they do not represent modern Poland and thier election win was not based on a manifesto that promoted anti-german feeling - for Kamil to make that connenction is plain wrong. The poll ( I havent seen it) may well have suported the Kacynski stance, but I doubt very much the basis for it as per this report.
Mark, Warsaw, Poland
Germany has the largest population, therefore also a greater vote. Isn't that exactly what democracy is about?
Fred Bruges, London, UK
It's not anti-German to point out that the nazis murdered millions of people and, in consequence, the many children and grandchildren the victims would have had never saw light of day. It's just not possible to pretend that the consequences of genocide stop within 50 years.
Polish (and all European) society today has been hugely shaped by the nazis' actions in the war - Poland's demography today is a major example.
The questions is valid: is it right for Germany to claim greater voting rights than Poland on the basis of greater numbers, when it was a German regime, within living memory, that caused that situation, by murder?
c boylan, guildford, uk
And if Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Italy and all the other numerous countries that fought in WW2 along with all the civilians who died in Germany, such as the Jews, the blacks, disabled people; if they had not fought or died then yes Europe would be a very different place. But you can't base votes on dead people. That would be like African countries granting extra votes to all the people who have died of Malaria over the many years. Absolutely ridiculous, and typical of a nationalisitc party
A Dixon, Portsmouth,
I find it very alarming that the very country that tried to dominate Europe by military force in two world wars in the 20th Century is now the driving force behind the peactime equivalent in the 21st century.
Hitler would be proud!
Rory Wellington, Canterbury, UK
Kaczynskis are right. They are persistently protecting the countrys interests. Poles were not so frustrated as Czechs and some others under Soviet domination. They kept resisting all the time. So, they have preserved self-respect and do not want to replace the Moscows dictatorship with that from Brussels. However, you see, in a Democratic alliance concord prevails in the end and an agreement got fortunately reached.
Yaroslav, Kyiv, Ukraine
I hope that after what German's Chancellor did, the Brits will realize that German's surrepptitiousness haven't died out.
wald, Tomaszow, Poland
Anti-German feeling is quite unnecessary but that Poland proposed to renegotiate some of the (mostly German) concepts that went into the draft treaty proposal is quite another matter. The two should not be confused. Nationalism is narrow-minded bigotry and should not be condoned. However, if an EU member state denies other states the right to submit proposals and amendments, it is actually restricting further integration. If Poland decides to take a stance on any issue, it has a perfect right to do so. European integration is so much more than "the German way of doing things", it should be open to debate and to voices coming from all countries of the Union.
Marcin, Warsaw, Poland
Justyna - shame on you!Kaczynski said what everybody thinks - Germany have no moral right to take leading role in Europe.And how big is 'vast number of Poles' showed last election in Poland...and resent public opinion polls...
Andrzej, Lublin, Poland
Slow down Justyna, however i don't support Kaczyński and he is not a hero of my movie, we should remember he represents our goverment and nation internationally. I personally don't think we, as state, should take everyting UE propose. I feel Kaczynski's tough words to Germans were just part of a game, as you know negotiations seem to be some kind of game. So as I said, we can criticise twins for things they do on domestic stage but abroad we should back them.....Hopefully You will think it over
Piotr, Gdańsk, Polska
thanks for your comment Justyna, as a german i am really glad to here that there is a different view in poland than that those strange twins have .
when i speak to my polish collegues at work all of them react with disbelieve to the current discussion but for them i always thaught that might be because they already know a lot of germans personally and came over any antigermansim.
florian, cologne, germany
What you say is true to a point .However there are a great many people i have come into contact with that think making such a stance on such an issue is ludicrous.parts of the media are state monopolized remember,in addition cities and rural communities vary greatly in ther opinion.
having said that ther is blatant anti German feelng and this is used by the Kaczynskis ,whenever they see fit. There also is great anger and embarrasment among a vast number of Poles as to what is happening in Polish politics both domestically and on the international stage.
Justyna Tarczynska, Warsaw, Poland