by reading through some of these passages i feel that a few things have to be clarified as far as my understanding and history showed. Someone made a point about how the 'jews only have one state hence and even that the muslims want to wipe out' - i would like to question how did the jews get to that land? when was it ever their land? rather as history shows they invaded that land and made it home, i'd like to ask anyone on this forum that if the french or any other country for example suddenly came to britain and declared it theirs would the british people think thats fine or would they defend in any manner? Thats exactly what the palestinians are doing fighting to defend thier land. why didnt the british give place for the jews here to create their own state if they want to be so helpful!

Another point is that David Davis tries very hard to show that hizb are violent making dishonest allegations but in the history of HT's existence it has never been violent!

Shelina, london,

Is it not he case that the Koran is believed by Muslims to be uniquely the word of God - written down by an angel - not by men? (Not by Mohammed as he was illiterate) If this is believed to be the case no word of the Koran can be ignored. The violent sections are just as valid as the more kindly sections - and terrorists can thus justify their actions by pointing to the words of violence.

However, there is some hope. Islam (like communism) can only flourish in the long term through brain washing, fear and ignorance. We musn't forget that there are some brave souls out there e.g. Abdelkareem Suleiman, jailed in Egypt for the contents of his blog. His father has called for his execution for his criticism of Islam thereon.

Irshad Manji's book 'The Trouble with Islam Today' is a good read. Although she has had threats on her life..she's another brave one.....

Jade, Exeter, UK

I believe the writer of this article is biased. HuT political work is not directly aimed at establishing a caliphate in the U.K. It is aimed at the Muslim world which we see today is in a mess. Brutal dicators which are backed by the west.

Furqaan Naeem, Berkshire, England

They should not be banned they should be deported and tried for treason if they are british born

syd, Leeds, UK

Derek of Dundee
I wish people would think a minute before they say nonsensical statements such as " Islam is incompatible with Western Democracies". Neither Christianity nor Judaism are compatible with western democracies. How christians progressed in Europe from 5 centuries ago till today has nothing to do with Christianity. Religions do not set up governments nor political policies, but organise relations between Man & Creator & between Man & Man. Just because some muslims say anything doesn't mean it is actually Islamic , like the veil & the caliphate.

S.ahmed, Cairo,

"HuT does not practise what it preaches."

Sir, you've dedicated majority of the this article, seriously condemning their (HuT) actions/activites. Then in the last paragraph you write "HuT does not practise what it preaches". Isn't that an oxymoron?

However, I do agree with you that 'HuT' must be banned from this country if they've been involved with terrorism.

Mohammed, London, UK

So Abdullah, why do we in a secular society have to hear so much about it ? If quote, " Muslims want to re-establish the caliphate in the Muslim world " unquote.

Take a look at Islam, it has to be the 'noisiest ' of all faiths, [ I do struggle with the word faith,] they shout & storm about when they disapprove of anything from small to big , the rantings are equal in size with much aggressive arm waving.
Take a look at the Mosques , even there Muslims can't just go quietly to pray, they have shouting from minarettes which can be heard all over towns by all other nonMuslims.
They don't even talk quietly, but shout over each other.
The clothes also screech I AM A MUSLIM, why on earth can't you all just fade into the mass like most people in an democracy ???
We genuine, peace loving/secular/Christian/Jewish people are sick of hearing from & of Muslims.
You've done yourselves damage, is it any wonder the general public feel like this ? only you in the Muslim community can change this.

Maggie Millington, Brittany , France

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/news/2007/07/09/47034.shtml

Check out the BBC propoganda attempts to smear Hizb ut Tahrir and their failure! This is why there is increasing distrust of societal institutions, politcianns and the media, who attempt to portray impartiality but are in fact proscrptive, biased and bogus in their journalism.

aziz, surrey, uk

Like the BNP banning it would make it worse and impossible to detect and monitor.

Ben, York,

"It's OK to call for a jewish state, but for Muslims doing the same is some kind of a crime requiring them to be banned. Does that not smack of double Standards?
Shareef, London, UK"

Don't be ridculous. Israel is just trying to protect its existence, against hostile Muslims.

Muslims, on the other hand, are established in seperatist communities all across Europe, with hostile relations to places that generously host them, a frequent hatred of the West and its freedoms, they have terrorists, and their interest in a caliphate is an entirely different matter.

Its this lack of education amongst Muslims, this constant repeat of facile, illogical, victimhood tit-for-tat agendas, that is much of the problem.

Joe, Manchester,

From the outside, looking in, I see quite a few Brits who can appreciate where the world, and their country, is heading. Maybe there is some hope for your proud clan.
Really though.....Haven't we all heard enough of the peaceful muslim religion?For the last time...the world does not want to revert back to the 7th century. Freedom and democracy will stand, only if Britain stands. History has proven that.
Aside from a few liberal-progressive neighborhoods around the US, this sort of thing is not tolerated. There are muslims all around the US, but there is one main factor that keeps them from trodding over our populace. The 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution.I have read many Brit comments about how backwards Americans are in our belief system regarding firearms. Do you not believe that your "islamic activists" would be a bit more subdued with the knowldege that 80% of the population is packing heat? It seems to work here.

GET YOUR GUNS BACK
JUST THOUGHTS OF ANOTHER DUMB AMERICAN

Mike F., Nashville, TN

'I can appreciate the offence caused by ...........the Danish cartoons, which depicted the prophet in an insulting way'. For God's sake do some research. The cartoons were published openly in Egypt months before and there was NO (repeat NO) backlash whatsoever. These continual protests and threats have far less to do with perceived offence to muslims than they are to do with pushing and pushing the West into a position where no criticism of this foul 'religion' is possible. Islam is incompatible with Western democratic values and I am still waiting for a politician with balls to say so. As this will require a politician who puts truth and honesty before his/her cushy career I suspect I'll have a long wait.

Derek S, Dundee,

Hizbu tahrir should be banned. I am a muslim & i tell you that the caliphate has nothing to do with religion. Even muslim coutries dare not think of it, its only the fanatics who are power hungry using the ignorance of the misguided masses to cause friction & make sure muslims do not assimilate or integrate in any way .

Those who want to set it know nothing about the history of the caliphate. so if anyone wants to set up a caliphate they should go where it was first set up 1400 years ago, that is the Medina in Saudia Arabia which is a monarchy & applies a very narrow & rigid interpretation of islamic jurisprudence.

s.g, Cairo,

What the heck are you talking about Shareef? Muslims have UMPTEEN Islamic states, the Jews have JUST ONE, and even that the Muslims want to destroy! I'd say that is a better example of double standards than anything I've read or heard for quite some time. The Jews, who have every reason to act as victims, don't, whereas the Muslims, who as far as I can see get most things their own way, embrace victimhood like a long lost friend.

Margaret Robinson, London, UK

W Ahmed
I can assure you, tradition & arab history books are rife with vast examples of incidents that would make seculars & colonial supermacists blush. Sure it wasn't all bad but the caliphate itself was rotten in the core. people had no say or could object to anything, neither during the Ummayad , Abbassid Dynasties nor during the first 4 caliphas, If you & some muslims wish to be ruled by such examples again,leave London & go someplace else, but many muslims would opt for democracy & not for a by gone caliphate which proved its shortcomings.

s.ahmed, Cairo,

"Surprisingly, most of us share the same concerns, we simply disagree about the way to address them. Farrukh, Woking, UK"

Unsurprisngly, that is totally incorrect. Critcising government policy is just a tactic Muslims use to locate themselves in mainstream political debate. They are not in the mainstream political debate, and this just distracts from what THEIR agenda is and the characteristics it has: Ummah victimhood, separatism, oppression of women and free speech, intolerance of Jews, homosexual, and Hindus. Muslims do not challenge those things, they express and endorse them. The political status of Islam is a joke - it is a religion, with all the flaws that has.

Joe, Manchester,

Seditious and insulting propaganda was banned, and rightly so, in wartime Britain.
The situation we are now facing as a result of fundamentalist Islamic propaganda, plus the murders perpetrated by militant adherents is , in the opinion of many people, a War , albeit undeclared. We know the objectives of the militants,
They are not shy of telling us.
When will we accept what we are experiencing as agression,and deal with it?

ron reece, blackmore, essex uk

David. Just because you don't like what some people say you can't go around banning them.

Your party leader a few weeks ago said he was a Zionist.

It's OK to call for a jewish state, but for Muslims doing the same is some kind of a crime requiring them to be banned.

Does that not smack of double Standards?

Shareef, London, UK

Mr Davis,

The British have already banned HT. The colonial "Viceroy" in Jordan, Sir John Baggot Glubb (Glubb Pasha) banned it and refused registration as a political party in the country in 1953.

Shareef, London, UK

I'm white British born and bred, well travelled and dont consider myself a rascist yet! But the day will come unless common sense prevails and the indigenous population is not traeted as second class citizens in favour of minority, religious fanatics and anyone else who finds there way to these ilsands (legally or illegally ) that I could be easily swayed.

It is a sad reflection that if an indigenous group stood together and spouted similar nonesnse not only would they be branded xenophobic but probaly thrown into prison aswell!

The backlash will come unless common sense prevails in immigration discrimination policies and their proper and fair application.

tony Southampton, Southampton, uk

Abdulla I would be interested to hear your definition of 'the Muslim world'.

John, Reading, UK

Lets take Mr Davis's type of thinking and apply it to the BNP, anti-capitalist, animal extremist, pro-zionists, etc. Just because people end up in these organisations doesn't mean that we would have to close down the schools, colleges and universities that they studied at.

The Hansard Society and Electoral Commission published the latest annual audit of political engagement and found that 71 percent of UK voters said they trust politicians "not very much" or "not at all". i would tend to concur with this sentiment, as there are lot of inaccuracies in this article. Sounds like the tories are taking over the spin show.

mo, Rotherham, uk

The UK give a group (who also run so called private schools) charitable status who have terrorist ambitions whos aims include persuading Muslims in Britain to not become integrated into the corrupt western society & accept their diseased notions of democracy freedom & capitalism & teach that their rules & laws come from Allah (not elected government) & that Islam should take over the western world by jihad (holy war). It just goes to show how out of touch & blind to reality the Ofsted Inspectors must be to have conducted an inspection & reported that the schools provision for the pupils spiritual, moral, social & cultural development is very good. The schools curriculum contains elements of Hizb ut-Tahrirs ideology, which calls for the union of all Muslim states into a worldwide empire. Hizb ut-Tahrir should be proscribed as a terrorist organisation & its schools shut down. Why does this country insist on kow-towing to ethnic minority groups who we know our out to hurt & extinguish us

Lynda Plum, London, england

At last someone has spoken about HuT Bravo to David Davies and i hope someone keeps an eye on this movement

Thomas , London,

Banning HT will only send them underground raising their perceived value as a popular group. Instead, the government should stop pussy footing around, recoginse there are flaws in foreign policy and work with groups such as the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) to provide an educational program, top down to grassroots, which teaches the values of Islam so the everyday young Muslim is less with the likes of HT and their rosy propaganda.

The hardest thing for anyone to do is to recognise their own flaws; difficult enough on an individual level let alone as a government. Start looking at the causes of the problems instead of focusing on the results of the problems. Surprisingly, most of us share the same concerns, we simply disagree about the way to address them. We have to build upon the things we all share in common, otherwise the cycle simply repeats itself.

Farrukh, Woking, UK

David Davis makes a fundamental error in this politically motivated hatchet job... Hizb ut Tahrir are NOT calling for islamic governance in the UK. It's quite clear from their literature and statements that they are seeking change in the MUSLIM world... Do some research David

Maurice Faulkes, Manchester,

Why do these people come to a country that allows free speech? because they can get away with religious ramblings and be pamperd too with their demands
Faith should be kept out of politics ,and politics likewise should not be influenced by any religious groups
If these groups were not so intent on trying to turn everyone in the world to their faith ,then maybe the world would live in some kind of peace with its neighbours, and there be no room for any preachers opions of how oher people live their lives?(some hope !!!)

paul, leicester, england

Its a shame most voters do not recognise that Conservatives are actually aware and talking more about this type of problem in Britain than Labour.

Seems to me there is more veneer to Gordon Brown and his cabinet compared to David Cameron and his team.

aub, London,

Different people – even within the Muslim world – have very different ideas about what "the true message of Islam" is supposed to be, and there is no objective way to tell which one is "right". That's why a theocratic Caliphate (like any other theocratic regime) can only work through unacceptable violence, as history very clearly shows. Thus, the notion of "non-violent Islamic activism to re-establish the Caliphate" appears to be self-contradictory – indeed a fine example of double talk in itself.

Mario Ferretti, L'Aquila, Italy

strange; Muslims who differ in values are automatically 'forigners' who are not appreciating the fruits of British civilisation? These racist bigots makes me sick.

Abdullah, london,

Hizb ut-Tahrir strongly rejects the baseless allegations by some media outlets linking us with the suspects arrested in connection with incidents in Glasgow and London.
Further to these allegations, Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain would like to point out the following:
(1) Hizb ut-Tahrir's methodology is one of intellectual and political work and not militancy, violence or armed struggle.
(2) None of the suspects arrested were members of Hizb ut-Tahrir or had any affiliation whatsoever with Hizb ut-Tahrir.
(3) The facts, based on Hizb ut-Tahrir's literature and activities, clearly show that Hizb ut-Tahrir prepares its members only with the political means for change. Globally, it remains a fact that large numbers of people who joined Hizb ut-Tahrir left militancy after being convinced of Hizb ut-Tahrir's political methodology on the basis of Islamic evidences. In Uzbekistan, the IMU (a militant Islamic group) witnessed a large turnover from its ranks to Hizb ut-Tahrir.

Adam Hassan, London,

David Davis knows too well that HuT DOES NOT seek to establish the Caliphate in the UK. If he was so concerned, he should have been there just as I was. It is in plain term a DELIBERATE LIE. I would be absolutely shocked if he claimed that this is a bona fide error on his part. One would have thought that a shadow home secretary knows something as fundamental as this fact. Politicians do not write to the Times with factual inaccuracies, unless they seek to mislead the public which the like of Davis do too often.

As for the Caliphate, the people of Britain enjoy the right to decide the type of government they wish to have. The Muslim world should not be dictated to by secular supremacists like Davis in terms of what form of government they want. It is but the ABSOLUTE RIGHT of the Muslim world. Only the supremacist colonialists hell bent on exploiting the resources of others will tell us otherwise.

W. Ahmed, London,

"I can appreciate the offence caused by Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses and the Danish cartoons, which depicted the prophet in an insulting way."

"The prophet"? I wasn't aware that Mr Davis was a Muslim.

M Hancock, Brighton, East Sussex

The author is right when he says HT use the freedom of the west, but seek to limit integration of Muslims in the UK.

However he was unfair to suggest HT should somehow approve/allow the Danish cartoons, or Rushdie's diatribes against Islam. These are fairly universal opinions amongst most muslims nothing particular to HT.

HT has lost ground recently to other Muslim groups, banning it would only make a martyr of it. Better to let it be overtaken by more practical groups like the MCB or MPAC.

akram, London,

Well said Mr Davis, how right you are .

A couple of points here, Hu T say they are against killing the innocent, I am sure they mean it, but not as we are meant to understand it, what we non believers have to realise is, WE ARE NOT INNOCENT in the eyes of Muslims.
We that don't believe & follow Allah are guilty , guilty for shunning their faith , so please see it from their point of view & see their statement in that light.
Secondly , they abhor dictators of the world, yes true , because/ if they are not the same Muslim sect !
Thirdly , if ever there was a demonstration of another form of imperialism , the Islamic world is it, how can they or anyone not see that ?
I urge everyone to read up on this subject, books like Robert Spencers book on Islam will leave everyone in no doubt what is going on here.
As for the caliphate, go & reinstate it in a Muslim country NOT in a British democracy, please.
Moderate Muslims do not exist , Muslim = Islam means all the things Islamists do.

maggie Millington, Brittany, France

Abdulla, As "non-violent" activists, you and other "non-violent" activists should be infiltrating radical groups and apprehending the Muslim heretics who dare to corrupt the non-violent tenants of the Koran. Then you should either deal with those radical Muslims in a manner consistent with the teachings of the Koran or turn them over to non-Muslim authorities. A closet is best cleaned out by opening the door and throwing out the trash...the world-wide muslim community must accept ownership of these problems and act.

Tom, Dayton, Ohio, USA

I always thought David Davis was a liberal in the Conservative Party. After all he opposed the extension of detention to 28 days, opposed control orders and opposed the new glorification provisions of the Terrorism Act 2006 under which groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir could possibly be banned.

While Mr Davis writes that the case against HT is clear, it is actually far from that. A member of his own shadow cabinet, Sayeeda Warsi, has gone much further than HT in justifying the violence of the Kashmiri and Iraqi resistance movements. Members of the Conservative Party have been convicted of criminal offences, most notably Lord Archer and Jonathan Aitken. They did not have mere associations - they were memebrs of the organisation. As the old saying goes, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Sarah Pumphrey, Welwyn Garden City, UK

Sir,
Is it a case of, "Don't panic Mr Mannering?"
We should be measured and tactful in identifying our aims and working towards them, instead of succumbing to the hysteria / intrigues of terror-entrepreneurs/ politically-motivated think tanks. We do NOT need a sledge-hammer to crack a nut, as this may may things worse.

Our aims should include draining the swamp of violence. In order to do that we must maintain a strict separation, however much self-discipline it may call for, between those whose who openly admit to wanting to use violence to achieve their aims, & the bravado of hot-heads.

In order to defuse the metaphorical "bomb," we must resort to cold reason & gauged precise reactions instead of behaving impulsively like our foes. Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey.

SC, London, United Kingdom

Contrary to the popular discourse, there has always been, and there will always remain, a marriage of convenience between the Jahada Islam and the right-wing political class, as they need each other to advance their respective agendas. The evidence to support the thesis is simply overwhelming. Consider the following historical facts:

1. Theocratic inspiration, financial and political support provided by the Bristish for the Wahabi Movement to undermine the Ottaman Rule in the Middle East during and after the 18th century.

2. 'Coalition' of the Islamists and the Arab nationalists against the secular, liberal Ottaman rule in World War1. ( Memoirs of Lawrence of Arabia will help, among other sources, if any Islamist or right-wing politician is wishing to dispute).

3. The unholy alliance between Muslim Brotherhood and the West during the cold war in the fight against communism.

4. The so-called Afghan Jihad in the 80s. (I don't think I need to elaborate any further).

Michel Clark, London, UK

When are this group going to be banned, isn't it time we got serious about terrorism. We don't need them in our country.

When it comes to solving terrorism this government actually promotes it with their inability to put their foot down where muslims are concered. If they don't like the way we do things in this country, they know where the door is.The English aren't for turning.
Labour, get a backbone before we all suffer.

Samantha Jones, Bucks, England

We need more like this: a clear challenge to what is, actually, widespread Muslim obscurantism not confined to HuT.

In particular, this pernicious lie that opposing intolerance is itself intolerant, that opposing anti free speech values opposes free speech. This is very, very, widespread in the Muslim community. Its a discourse built on tit-for-tat deception, further seen when Iran (and others) "satirised" the holocaust on the premise that it was equivalent to the Danish cartoons.

This is psychologically deranged - it has no place in politics or international relations. But sadly, its typical in Islam: another example is Pakistan "scholars" honouring Bin Laden as a supposed equivalent to recognising the work of Salman Rushdie.

Psychologically deranged - it seems many Muslims have got very attached to these and other forms of victimhood narrative, whereby espousing these things gives them some kind of identity and self esteem they can't find in other ways.

Joe, Manchester,

The fact that all those names Mr davies mentioned in connection with the terror activities are not the members of Hut, rather they were the ex-members, in itself is an answer. This actually shows that these handful of individuals have either left or have been expelled proves further that those who are not convinced with its method of non-violence will not or cannot remain with HuT.
HuT condemnation of the civilian killings anywhere in the world has been more unambiguous than the condemnation of it by the Lalbour or the conservatives.
In fact the constant and imaginary linking of all these individuals and incidents is a desperately deceptive spin.

Owais, London , UK

Abdulla highlights the problem, he is the problem. People that come to Britain and enjoy its hospitality then try to revoke our democracy, peacefully or not are the problem. He states the aim of "Islamic activists" to re-establish the Caliphate in the Muslim world, in other words Britain to him is part of the Muslim world.

The agenda is not so hidden is it. A return to a muslim theocracy is his aim where democracy has no place. Will our wilfully complacent politicians ever get their act together and start banning organisations like Hut? Who knows it may take another 7/7 of even greater death and destruction before they will show some sort of spine in this alarming matter.

Richard K, Nottingham, England

Abdulla highlights the problem, he is the problem. People that come to Britain and enjoy its hospitality then try to revoke our democracy, peacefully or not are the problem. He states the aim of "Islamic activists" to re-establish the Caliphate in the Muslim world, in other words Britain to him is part of the Muslim world.

The agenda is not so hidden is it. A return to a muslim theocracy is his aim where democracy has no place. Will our wilfully complacent politicians ever get their act together and start banning organisations like Hut? Who knows it may take another 7/7 of even greater death and destruction before they will show some sort of spine in this alarming matter.

Richard K, Nottingham, England

Only the hypocrite Islamic organisations use double talk to hide the true message of Islam. The sincere Islamic activists continue to engage in non-violent Islamic activism to re-establish the Caliphate in the Muslim world.

Abdulla , London, Uk