Angus Macleod and Melanie Reid
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The leader-elect of Labour in Scotland has told people in England to stop complaining that they would be better off financially without the Scots.
Wendy Alexander said that the claim could just as easily be made about other parts of the United Kingdom, resulting in London unilaterally declaring independence from other regions of England such as the North East and Merseyside.
Ms Alexander, who takes over formally as Labour leader north of the Border on September 14, said in an interview with The Times that such criticism missed the point of the 300-year-old Union between the two countries. Contrary to the widespread impression in England, Scotland did not get preferential treatment from the Treasury, she said.
Figures from the Scottish Executive show that the Government spends £1,236 more on every person in Scotland than it does in England. But Ms Alexander said: “It does not come down to numbers. Every part of the UK outside London is a net beneficiary from the Exchequer, and Scotland does not get a uniquely good deal.
“That argument, that England would be better off without Scotland, would lead you to declare UDI for London . . . and would lead to California seceding from the rest of the United States.”
The impression that Scotland receives better public services than England as a result of devolution has gained ground south of the Border, especially since the Scottish National Party took power in the Scottish Parliament in May.
As well as continuing policies such as free personal care for the elderly, introduced by the Labour-led Executive in 2002, the SNP is committed to introducing free prescriptions for the chronically ill from next April as well as ending tuition fees and replacing loans with grants for Scottish students.
Ms Alexander, who is the sister of Douglas Alexander, the International Development Secretary, believes that people in England should put aside these differences in policy between the two countries and look to the bigger picture of two countries “sharing risk, revenue and resources”.
She added: “The bigger issue is what signal it would send to the rest of the world if we [the English and the Scots] said we could not live together.”
Ms Alexander also hinted strongly that she took a different attitude from Gordon Brown’s to the growing clamour in Scotland for the Parliament in Edinburgh to be given greater control over its finances. The devolved Parliament currently receives its £30 billion annual budget in the form of a grant from Westminster, and its ability to raise tax revenue is limited.
Mr Brown said before the election in May that Holyrood’s wideranging powers in areas such as health, education and justice were sufficient and there was no need to alter the Scotland Act that set up the Parliament.
Ms Alexander told The Times: “I have an open mind. Times change. It is ten years since the Scotland Act. It was Donald Dewar [the late First Minister and the man regarded widely as Ms Alexander’s political mentor] who said that this was not the last word on the devolution settlement.
“We have to be alert to criticism from within Scotland about whether Scottish politicians here are sufficiently accountable.”
But Ms Alexander, who finds herself leading Scottish Labour as the party experiences opposition for the first time since devolution in 1999, added that the argument over more powers cut both ways.
There could also, she said, be a case for power over policy areas such as security and climate change to lie entirely with Westminster since these were clearly “one-island issues” which affected the whole of the UK.
She also gave warning to Alex Salmond, the SNP First Minister, that if he chose to hold a referendum on Scottish separation – as he and his party have pledged – he would lose. Polls show that fewer than one in three Scots supports separation from the rest of the UK. “The fact that the Nationalists want to end the UK is not a reason for the rest of us to shy away from how could the partnership between the countries be best strengthened.”
Asked what her “big idea” was for her leadership, Ms Alexander said: “I want to see social and economic change in Scotland, not constitutional change.”
It is a theme she has returned to repeatedly since taking the reins of the party: that what people want is politicians who listen a bit more and lecture a bit less. She wants to be on the side of the voters and understand their issues; she wants Scotland to be aspirational.
It all makes her sound like another politician who was the first woman to lead her party. She is aware of the comparisons. “One of the interesting things about Mrs Thatcher is that at the start of her career in the 1970s she was only interested in talking to the nation, not the Westminister village, and that, I think, is one of our challenges in Scotland,” she said.
“What gets Alex Salmond up in the morning is his desire to see the end of the UK. But what people will ask him in four years’ time [at the next election] is whether he spent his time making Scotland a better place, or did he spend his time on constitutional change and on arguments about which flag should fly over Edinburgh Castle?”

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Why does this argument get given as Scots living of England. Do your sums. That money that supposedly goes to Scotland has huge chunks that never make it here and go into building Wembley, funding the Olympics, London Eye, Millenium Dome... the list is too long. That money is attributed to Scotland yet never actually makes it on it's journey North. It's the UK Unionist parties that are standing in the way of Scottish independence, why? Because it's rich in oil (used in taking out loans), the largest oceans in Europe (used in bartering deals in the EU) and we have excess water and electricity which are imported to England for free, not to mention billion pound industries of whisky and fabric. We have the deepest ports needed for housing subs and building large vessels. Telling the Scots they need the Union has now backfired in England, how will they solve the mess they have created? Remember the report from the 70's? Scotland as rich as Switzerland? Where's that money gone?
Graeme, Edinburgh,
Scottish cash cow? Scotland takes far more than it gives, Mairi, as I say, the oil is not all Scotland's. Up to 50% is England's. The current maritime border assumes that England will donate a lot of its share of the oil to Scotland should the countries separate. This is not so. The Barnett Formula subsidies to Scotland far exceed the revenue from Scotland's "share" of the oil. Things do need sorting out, then we will see an end to these illogical bletherings and a better relationship between two quite dissimiliar countries.
And you need to send this message firmly to your MPs - like Wendy Alexander.
Chris Abbott, Cambridge, England
"Contrary to the widespread impression in England, Scotland did not get preferential treatment from the Treasury, she said. "
Oh for crying out loud! Every scottish person gets more money spent on them. That is preferential! Maybe she should look up what preferential means? Of course, the scots get preferential treatment. Not only that, they get cancer drugs that English people do not get. Why don't they get them? Because of Gordon Brown and his mates!
"Figures from the Scottish Executive show that the Government spends £1,236 more on every person in Scotland than it does in England. But Ms Alexander said: âIt does not come down to numbers. Every part of the UK outside London is a net beneficiary from the Exchequer, and Scotland does not get a uniquely good deal. "
What exactly does, "it does not come down to numbers" mean? It is her way of refusing to answer the question put to her! So, she's just another useless politician who refuses to answer.
M Anderson, English , U.S.A.
I don't mind my taxes being used to support other parts of the country. Redistribution of wealth is part of the role of government, and Scotland at least has a public transport system that works. However, it irritates me that the Scots should be so keen to bite the hand that is feeding them.
Paul Fernandez, London, England
Considering the maritime border is not in the correct position, and nearly half the oil is really England's, the Scots cries of "It's oor oil!" are completely groundless.
Wendy Alexander is simply being devious. If Scotland, with all it's diverse factions - Highlands, Lowlands, Shetlands, etc, is a united country then so is England.
And England is entitled to the same level of financial provision and national representation as Scotland.
Maria Scott, Scunthorpe, England
Michael Fallon: Westminster MPs representing Scots constituencies voted in Tuition Fees for England, overturning the votes of England's own MPs to reject them. This is The West Lothian Question writ large.
Also, the Scots Parliament took a conscious decision to discriminate against English students when it came to charging them fees and not students from Europe, fearing a flood of "Top Up Fee refugees" from England applying to Scots Universites.
So, Scots MPs at Westminster decided that England would have Top Up Fees, and Scots MPs at Holyrood decided to discriminate against English students seeking sanctuary in Scotland where Top Up Fees do not apply. To anybody else.
Chris Abbott, Cambridge, England
Scottish Labour is getting a bit touchy these days! Worried are we that Alex Salmond is doing such a good job? With a bit of luck the SNP will become the majority Scottish party in the House of Commons at the next general election.
I've got some news for you Wendy Alexander. England is a nation and we English will decide our own destiny together thank you. We don't need a politician from another nation (Scotland) telling us what to do. That goes for Gordon Brown as well. The people of England have made it clear that they don't want regional government. We've been together a long time and we've had enough of New Labour etc. trying to stir up trouble.
The Union is finished. Let's put it out of its misery. Independence for England!
Derek, Southampton, England
"UDI for London" - yeah, bring it on!
David Bodden, London,
If Scotland is not better off than England, then why cant we have free prescriptions or more help for students. Why are the class sizes in Scotland smaller than in England? This is just a few of the inequalities that exist. All UK citizens should get equal treatment.
Let Scotland decide their own future and England should be decide its own, ie get rid of all Scottish MP who make decisions for England, including Gordon Brown!
Rozario, Hastings, England
well said louise, but I guess they will wait till the oil and gas runs out.
alan reid, wellington, New Zealand
Louise: in 1707 the English people didn't have a say on the Union either. The thing was cobbled together by the elites of the two countries. One hundred years earlier in 1603, it was the Scots who wanted a union under their Kings James VI (James I of England) and the English resisted the idea, maintaining two kingdoms under one crown
Richard, Bexhill, England
George in Durham just does not know what he is talking about 'no up front fees for students (banned to English students in Scotland but ok for foreigners)'. The explanation for that is to be found in European Law. At the present moment the member state in the European Union is the United Kingdom - England and Scotland are both constituent parts of that member state. No legislature in part of a member state may legally ban the citizens of another member state may legally prevent the citizens of another member state from receiving the benefits of a legislative decision. What happens within a member state is an internal matter - just as if the Westminster Parliament was devolved and the United Kingdom Parliament was in Scotland. Francis from Sunderland also misses the point. Both England and Scotland are part of Great Britain by application of the Treaty of Union 1707. Just for the record I believe in independence for Scotland and have been an active member of the SNP for over 32 years.
Michael Follon, Glenrothes, Scotland
This article is typical of Labourâs smoke screen when it comes to overspending in Scotland.
Scotland gets 33% more public money than England. Why? Iâve absolutely no idea because itâs not based on need. Scotland is the third richest âregionâ (out of 12) but it gets the second most generous amount of revenue from Westminster.
Why should it get more than Wales, or the North East of England, for example? It seems to be because theyâre Scottish⦠I canât see any other reason.
Tery, Bucks, England
I'm not surprised record numbers are leaving the UK, because soon the UK won't exist. We were an important country but you people are hellbent on seeing our total decline. I can say catagorically that IF the Union breaks up I will exercise my rights as an EU citizen and emigrate to another EU country. If the nationalists among you want to decend into stupidity, rampant nationalism and insanity: Good luck to you all, you're going to need it.
Ian, Aberdeen, The United Kingdom of Great Britain and NI
england, if you are getting off your bums, and going for
independence, GO ON, I'LL HELP YOU, it takes guts, i know
till then stop blaming the scottish cash COW.
mairi macleod, alba, scotland
The North Sea oil is up to 50% English - the martime border between England and Scotland was tweaked by the UK Government (which included Scots MPs) in the 1960s - in Scotland's favour. The English were not consulted. Should Scotland and England split, the border must be corrected. It currently contravenes international convention.
What if Edinburgh declares UDI, Ms Aleaxander? And there are restless elements in the Orkneys? Like most Scots MPs, Ms Alexander starts from the premise that England is simply a bunch of disconnected regions and that Scotland is Scotland, a "proud, historic nation".
England and Scotland will make good neighbours. But the Union is finished. The sooner New Labour is kicked into touch, together with the hopeless so-called "Opposition" parties, the better.
Political Parties need to absorb the fact that devolution has happened for some and not for others and it needs to be made FAIR FOR ALL.
Chris Abbott, Cambridge, England
So if the same applies to other regions in the country, obviously we should treat Scotland in the same manner as those other regions: no devolved government (sorry, a degree of local government but little discretion due to central targets); no Cabinet post and representation in Parliament more closely resembling population. I would be very happy with that.
JS, Cambridge,
How good of Wendy Alexander, Labour's Scottish Leader Elect to put her English cousins right on the question of government expenditure in our respective countries. Of course, says Ms Alexander - responsible to the Scottish people for labour's share in government in Scotland - of course this is irrelevent, or so Ms Alexander would have believe. Her words might carry more weight if Lord Barnett he of the Barnett Formula had not given his view that it was indeed now unfair to the English - but no matter for surely Ms Alexander is representing the best interests of we, the English nation as you might expect of someone accountable only to Scotland and not at all to England. .
Perhaps Ms Alexander could lay the ghost to rest by telling us what services Scottish people have foregone in order to allow free university places, better health provision, free elderly care, better nurses pay. If she cannot do so we English might just decide we cannot trust the Scottish Labour Party eh Gordon?
Paul Catcheside, Fareham, Hants.
Lets see now, why I voted for the SNP
Brown = unsafe
McConnell = Blair
Jamieson = Disaster
Here is the list of "benefits"
Trident
Nuclear Power
Iraq War
Loss of Oil Revenue
Loss of Fishing Rights
"London" Olympics
Pensions Collapse
Unprecedented Tax Levels
Unaffordable Houses
MRSA
£500 billion++ National Debt
Inflation on the increase RPI 4.8% and climbing
alan reid, wellington, New Zealand
Geoff Saunders, You will get little opposition from the English people regarding Scottish independence, it is up to the Scottish people to stop listening to the unionist spin and lies and vote overwhelmingly for the SNP or any other party that will be able to bring about your country's seccession from the UK. Please, for our sake as much as yours, just get on with it!
Phil McCavity, Essex, England
oh please!
Im a yorkshire man and I would love to get rid not just of the Scots but London as well!! Bring it on
James Fowler, Doncaster, England
Geoff Saunders, I fear your comments are based upon the ignorance of so many in that neighbouring country of ours. It isn't the English that are preventing your independence - the depiction of us as oppressors of you poor victims is near racist - it is you, for your voting patterns. Once again the English get the blame, but now for how Scotland votes! Please grow up. Roll on English Indpendence, we have very little in common with Scoltand and far more with countries like Norway, Germany and the Netherlands.
David Watson, Gloucester,
Meantime Mr Salmond has taken down the Executive sign and replaced it with Goverment.Cheeky but nice.The scots-unionists are the ones that come across a begging to stay in the so called UNION!.Good Luck to the Scottish people.Wish we could dump The arrogant South.
D paterson, Blackpool, England
Wendy Alexander is being disingenuous here. Since devolution, the Scots have been getting better government services than the English and this is what has broken the covenant. When everyone in the UK was entitled to the same level of service, it was perfectly fair that subsidies were paid to poorer areas, in order to maintain that consistent level of service. This common service level still applies, more or less, between various parts of England. The problem is that the Scots have decided to award themselves a higher level of service and have ensured that the system is no longer fair! It is this unfairness that is undermining the union and it will continue to do so until this issue is resolved.
Now that the Scots have better services than the English, surely any subsidies that the English choose to pay should be going to Africa.
Chris Harrison, Callander, UK
I thought it all started when scots said in a poll they would like to get their independence & that the break up of the UK is inevitable!
Question is, do all nationalist scots live in scotland & will they go back there if they get their independence?
Don't the scots realise that being part of the UK is far better than being alone? One would think they are under occupation forces & need to assert their identity & honour again!
sherif , Cairo,
Now that's good coming from a Scot, who probably getting wages not only from that talking shop called the Scots Parliament, but also takes wages from the Scots minority dictatorship in Westminster. The Scots get everything we the English are denied, we don't even have our own voice i.e. English Parliament, we're not even allowed to speak infavour of our own identity, now that's what i call dictatorship, Aparthied.
We are whinging not the Scots, its us who are told to put up and shut up, by a Minority Government who shows discrimination in favour to every one but the English, we are being denied our rights, our voice, our Identity and our very right to be English and Govern ourselves, and MS Alxander is telling us to stop whinging, just so the Scots Minority Dictatorship can continue with their Beloved Union, or should i say ROBBING THE ENGLISH BLINED
Well i say, roll on an Idependent England free of this Minority Dictatorship and the EUSSR.
Harold Godwinson, Nottingham, ENGLAND
That Scottish refrain of "Ah hate the English" has had something of a drip effect in England over the years and the respect people once had here for the Scots has long evaporated. If Scotland wishes to break from the Union then their wishes would be fully supported in an England where tax payers are angered by the fact they have to contribute to healthcare and educational schemes north of the border that they will never enjoy themselves. The Scots can run their own affairs as they wish - as long as they are paying for it.
Gerry, London, England
Louise, not only do I vote for a party that would give England's its own parliament, I stand in elections as a candidate for it.
England is told by all the largest parties that England cannot have its own parliament because the UK would break up. However for the Union to be maintained we are told England must be broken up into unwanted spurious regions.
To answer your points, I don't care about whether Scotland subsidises the UK now because England subsidised Scotland from day 1 of the Union and did so for 260 years. England doesn't need Scotland now and never did in the past.
The English people never had a say in founding the Union either, and they are denied a say now. which is about the one fact uniting the English with the Scots.
I stick by what I say, if England had a referendum on Scotland being independent then Scotland would indeed be independent, whether Scots wanted it or not.
Stephen Gash, Carlisle , England
The posters here are somewhat myopic--go and look at the revelations by the westminster crooks when they were forced to tell the truth under the 30 year rule. Wendy Alexander is the best thing which has happened to the S.N.P. in years, just wait and see.
Seumas, Tain, ross-shire
If Scots are such a burden on England (and therefore presumably on Wales and Northern Ireland as well) why not just let us go our own way?
Geoff Saunders, Glasgow, Scotland
It comes as a bit rich of Wendy Alexander to tell us English to stop whinging about Scots cash, considering that most of the Scots cash comes from English taxpayers via the outdated Barnett Formula, but cash is only one of the disparities between England and Scotland since her beloved Labour party brought in devolution, we in England now have a democratic deficit, where is our English Parliament so decisions can be made for the betterment of England and her people, her fellow Scottish electorate can vote both for the UK Govt and thier own Parliament whilst we in England have only one for the UK Govt, decisions made that effect England only are carried by the Labour Scots MPs such as Student top-up fees and foundation hospitals and now the people of England are Governed by a ScottishPrime Minister who signed the "Scottish Claim of Right", which says "the feelings and well being of the Scottish people are paramount in our decisions", so England comes second best on all counts.
Barry (The Elder), London, England
Nothing new hear from Old Labour...with press releases like this they are justifiably becoming concerned with the rise of a New English patriotism that seeks to address the unfair treatment of its people within its own country. The asymmetrical devolution that has been imposed in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland cannot be reversed. It has led to social injustices that will no longer be tolerated by the people of England.
David Ford Lane (English Democrat), Bedworth, ENGLAND
Fine for her to say.
Judy , Liverpool, england
Alas, this is what is wrong with Scotland (and dare I say it, other parts of the United Kingdom).
Fiscal transfers from London - lets leave the oil out of this! - may be a fact of life in the UK, but they are certainly not natural. Plenty of small European countries do fine without any subsidies from a global mega city,.
A Scottish politician should be asking - no demanding - what has gone so wrong that a population is dependent on a city in another country? Oh, I forget, there is one politician doing that now: Alex Salmond.
I suggest the dependent regions of England find their own voice, instead of whinging - yes whinging - at the Sweaties.
SC, Dundee, Scotland
Alexander is an absolute discrace, everyone with an ounce of sense knows that Scotland's dependancy culture is to Labour's advantage and not the Scottish peoples and statements like this one will be music to Alex Salmond's ears. How any self-respecting Scot would vote Labour is a mystery to most English people anyway as all they ever do is use scaremongering (we're too wee to survive without English subsidy etc.) to discourage Scots from siezing control of their own destiny. The sooner both Scotland and England are rid of the career politicians for whom the union is a meal ticket and an ego trip (much more prestigeous to be PM of an artificial entity called "Britain" than it would be to run your own country, eh Gordon?) the better it will be for all of us. We could then get on with providing better governance for our own people without having petty rows about who subsidises who and better still, the English would not have a PM without a mandate from any English voter imposed upon them.
Phil McCavity, Essex, England
She doesn't lead her party; she leads the Scottish group of Labour MSPs in Scotland. She has no authority over Scottish Labour MPs, Scottish Labour Councillors. Her 'authority (via patronage) is limited to Holyrood...
1971Thistle, Brussels, Belgium
It's very easy, in this double by-lined article, to differentiate the political analysis written by Angus Macleod and the gushing hagiography from Melanie Reid!
eestlane, Edinburgh,
This lady is making specious and disingenuous comparisons. London is not a country but part of England as are the regions she illustrates her argument with. "Polls show that fewer than one in three Scots supports separation from the rest of the UK. â Mmm, I wonder why? Possibly because they know which side their bread is buttered on? The Union is finished because of such inequalities.
Walter Tyler, Lancaster, England
Ms Alexander conveniently ignores the West Lothian Question. As a Londoner I have absolutely no objection to fiscal transfers from London to the other parts of England if these are justifed on the basis of need. I have the same degree of political representation and the same nationality as the rest of England. Before the re-establishment of the Scottish Parliament I would have taken the same view of transfers to Scotland. We were then a genuinely unitary state and "British" still seemed to be a viable national identity. These conditions no longer exist. Scotland is 75% self-governing and increasingly assertive about its separate national identity, yet its representatives at Westminster, such as Ms Alexander's brother, still enjoy all the powers over English matters which have been removed from English MPs in relation to Scotland. Yes, I do mind subsidising the citizens of a semi-detached nation and will continue to whinge until something is done about it.
James Matthews, London, England
Stephen given your desire to be rid of me a scot and my desire to be free of you an english why arent the english parties getting rid of us. I suggest you vote for the person who will give scotland the referendum she needs to be free. Making us both very happy. Unfortunately none of the parties will do it because they all know scotland is in fact subsidising england due to our greater natural reserves the higher taxes that scots pay and our high exports among other things. The people of scotland didnt get a say three hundred years ago when the act of union was signed in secrecy and they are still not getting a say now because labour, lib dem and the tories are blocking a referendum on scottish independence
louise, inverclyde, scotland
Why does this Scotswoman use the argument as a sneaky way of promoting the idea of abolishing England by partition? She could just have easily have said the Scottish Lowlands might be better of without the Scottish Highlands.
IM Archer, Alton, England
The problem here is that many Scots always want more than their fair share. Equal spending per head would not be good enough for them. Same with devolution - they wanted their own Parliament and a say in how England is governed, anything less ad they'll vote SNP. As an Englishman I've had enough of the union. London is part of England, the North is also a part of England so they won't declare UDI. however Scotland is not part of England so her arguments are flawed. Bring on English independence now.
francis, Sunderland, England
what a cheek from Wendy Alexander, whingeing about England is the Scottish National sport. Everything they have like the Scottish Parliament ,hundreds of MSP's and back up staff, no up front tuition fees for students (banned to English students in Scotland but ok for foreigners) and Cancer drugs that are banned to English Cancer sufferers are all paid for by the English. In return we are labelled as racists if we as much as try to assert our national identity. The sooner England is free of Scotland and all those Scottish people parachuted in to English constituencies the better. The Scottish Raj is like being ruled by Pol Pot.
George, Durham, England
A Scot accusing somebody else of whinging? How ironic! Whinging is Scotland's national sport. Alex Salmond would maybe lose a referendum in Scotland on Scotland going independent. He'd win it in England!
Stephen Gash, Carlisle , England