Giving our sovereignty away piece by piece to this monstrous European juggernaut is treason, pure and simple, and if suggested in previous, more robust ages would have promptly led to a row of heads over Traitors' Gate. For heaven's sake people, wake up! We are being betrayed!

Nicholas Lee, Windsor, UK

Dear Shane, dude! Your country is gone and the ones that took it away right under your nose cannot be named. Read this forum, you might find some unswers here.

Fabio C, London, UK

How can an economic union have any control over the whole, or any part, of a union, unless they have control of tax, interest rates, spending etc etc?

Personally, I am unsure if any of this will work or not. There are real arguments for integration within a European state. and there are real arguments against. The decision sure will be close. I will vote for.
There is no real debate within the press and mass media. Not that grabs attention any more than what is number 1 or who will win strictly come dancing.So why do we continue to use our brains in trying to put any form of logic on this all. What really can you or I do? Let us leave the politicians to try to convince the idiots, that don't really care, what is best for them.


I also suspect that the country does not care. So why should we?



I notice there seems to be an aversion to joining the EU in UK society.

Chris, southampton, hants uk

Richard D - we can see which way you would respond. There is a different way though. When I voted to go into the EEC it was not for a European Parliament, but rather for a Free Trade zone. We have little or no control over what the European Parliament or Commission decides, For example, suppose we wanted to get rid of Mandelson and the Kinnocks how do we go about doing that? There appears to be no accountability to the people at all. This looks like the Soviet type model except responsibility isn't to a Party but to some other institution. In other words it is inherently undemocratic (and open to corruption). Since we as taxpayers pay these people's wages they should be accountable to us - we should vote them in or out. Until that happens we should restrict the power that these people have. As for the Commonwealth - I agree, pretty pointless organization and well past its sell by date.

Ian Burgess, Bristol,

Well, no, Richard D. It is not essential to get a new treaty at all. We voted for the common market, and Europe would be a good deal better off if that's what it had remained.

John Bald, Linton,

I dont see why Barroso should equate fighting terrorism with agreeing more powers for the EU. There is no rlationship. Civilised nations would be able to cooperate against terrorism without having to get something out of it. Or is terrorism the EU stick?
The country is already bending over backward for the EU. Our position is untenable, we need to pull back and do it decisively. The next thing you know it will be unlaewful to make anti EU remarks.

John W, Oldham,

"Constitutional concept abandoned"

I hear this all the time. But it doesn't actually mean anything. The only real meaning is that instead of quoting old treaties verbatim, they now only refer to them. The net difference is zero. The new treaty amalgamated with the old treaties would come down to pretty much the same thing as the treaty called constitution.

Therefore "the constitutional concept is abandoned" can be dismissed as an empty soundbite.

As a well informed EU-hostile (pro Europe anti EU) I can say that with confidence. The anti sovereignty (pro EU) crowd usually have no clue what the EU is really about. Because in order to be a sceptic, you need to be well informed.

Marcel, The Hague, The Netherlands

I get angrier and angrier every day I read this... This country's freedom has not been threatened like this since World War 2.
Our grand fathers fought wars to protect this type of thing, it's an insult to the people who gave there lives for that cause to not even give the public an opinion on this issue.

These are grave days and to me signal the begging of the end for freedom as we know it, "a new world order is approaching" as Gordon Brown puts it and it’s coming in the form of the new EU treaty.

"unless Britain co-operated fully with EU measures, it would hinder the fight against terrorism."
This is called "propaganda" and is trying to influence your mind/thoughts through fear prompted by the world "terrorism".

We need a referendum on this issue and we need an independent team to look at this and have a discussion on all the issues. We, as the people need to sit a read the "treaty" and make an informed decision on what to vote.

Andrew Towell, England,

Why is it that the net receivers from the EU coffers (Italy, Spain, Portugal and France etc.) are clamouring the loudest at Britain to get in line for this dismal “Amendment Constitutional Treaty”? Great prospect : - the countries with the least democratic traditions, the “Roman” dictatorial tradition as in Treaty of Rome, are cracking the whip. Doesn’t look good for the collective future, does it?

Brompeter, Strasbourg,

Eddie Reader,

This "inept little Country" has done more for the rest of the world in the last 600 years than all of the others put together have done since the dawn of time.

:-)

Paul, Bedford,

This raises interesting questions.

Firstly, since Parliament merely exercises the executive authority of the Crown, what right, if any, under the British constitution does Parliament have to cede any of the sovereignty of the Crown?

Second, suppose Brown signs on to the treaty. Well, what if the Queen refused royal assent (which she ought to do, has every right to do and would be a hero for doing)?

Third, Gordon Brown is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, not a satrap of the EU merely in charge of some regional government. Would Mr. Brown not come across the hero if he not only refused anything other than his red lines, but even if he got them called a referendum? After all, Labour promised one didn't they.

In sum, I believe as an observer from America that there is no way this British government, or any British government could comtemplate for two seconds this sort of giving away the sovereignty of the Crown and Parliament of the United Kingdom. Ever.

Jim, Milwaukee, USA

Does the treaty talk about DNA databases or is that bit just added by the Times to stir things up?

Rod Munch, Northampton, UK

This all staretd way back in the '70s, when Ted Heath hid from us the real agenda behind the EEC referendum question (in which I voted in favour, for an ECONOMIC Community). Successive governments have allowed the UK's "sovereignty" to be eroded, whilst at the same time adopting their long-standing arrogant and dismissive attitude to the electorate - once you've elected us, your opinions don't count (Until the next election, of course...). Wake up! Cast party politics aside for once, and vote for whichever party is actually willing to commit to referenda on all major issues - the west Lothian question, for example - where non-English MPs can vote on English matters, or the Barnett formula - whre Labour set up a structure which ensures that the Scots (traditionally left-leaning) get a bigger per capita subvention from the Treasury than the rest of us, Hanging..., etc.? The UK a democracy? In your dreams!

Vassily Borisovich, Datchet, UK

The United States of Europe gets ever closer; the politicians who say they are opposed to it are telling porkies. I give the UK another 10 to 15 years at most as "an independent nation". All the features of the UK's constitional history are being increasingly rapidly whittled away. But then, who cares about history? Is it being taught anyway?

The powers that be who want sovereignty eliminated are inexorably getting their way. Just read "Rule by Secrecy" by Jim Marrs.

Gerry Watts, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

Eddie reader, how come you are living in theis enept little country then, Our benefits system?

Lizzy, Lincoln, uk

Time to get out... this was always sold to us as a common market... lies, all damned lies...

they've been working behind our backs to build a monstrous superstate that has no proper oversight and where the public can't vote out the ruling elite...

paulc, gloucester,

I for one would be happy with our own "miserable little island" outside of soviet europe. Please, please, please Gordon a referendum for us on this "miserable little island" to "once and for all" settle this.

Nick C, Totnes, UK

Well, if gutless Gordon needs to stand up to bullies, we all know what the outcome will be. He will bluster and fluster and then quietly back down.

Rick, London, England

It's tough being Gordon - last week beaten up by Cameron, this week by the foreign johnnies. He should call an election and have a well-earned rest, poor fellow

Will all those who hate the EU for its laws that affect the UK, please note that no legislation in the EU is passed without the approval of the Council of Ministers and that on this council we are represented. Therefore, what you don't like coming down from Brussels has already been approved by your elected representatives there. Your fellow countrymen in Westminster.

john problem, london,

1000 years of accumulated years of legal practice, parliamentary evolution and adjustment appears to be ridden over rather too easily for my liking. They are rushing this unncecessarity and are going to rue the implementation of this charter than celebrating it in the future.

ken, tokyo, japan

Here we go ..... the predicted clash between the EU and Gordon (you can trust me to make the right decision for you) Brown is being prepared ready for this week's summit.

Gordon will come out of it insisting that he stood firm for Britain and the 'red lines' are water-tight. The other members of the EU will go back and say that the way around the 'red lines' has been built into the Treaty.

The ONLY way the people of Britain will be satisfied is if they get the promised Referendum.

Donna Walker, Effingham, Surrey

The socalled 'red lines' are not worth the paper they are printed on. They have no legal status. Any legal or constitutional expert can tell you this. And also, the 'red lines' are not changes vis a vis the old draft, all of those 'red lines' were in the constitution already.

The 'fight' we now see between Brown and the continental EU-types is a phony one. It is done so Brown can come out of the 'summit' grandly proclaiming he stood up for British interests. Don't be fooled, it is all orchestrated to lull the British into a false sense of security.

We continentals look with hope to Britain to block this new treaty. It is quite clear that in many countries the majority doesn't want this but the politicians (whose gravy train the EU is) go ahead with it anyway.

The treaty has nothing to do with streamlining anything. What it does represent is another step in the EU becoming the supergovernment of Europe.

Britains policies and laws should be made in London, not Brussels.

Marcel, The Hague, The Netherlands

I believe Richard D is correct, we should make up our minds once and for all. Join the EU fully and accept its laws etc and remove the UK parliament completely or be run by our own representatives.

We do not need to have all these grabbing politicians if the laws are created in Brussels so lets get rid of them.

joseph Kellie, Edinburgh, Scotland

I just don't understand. If the Constitution had not been rejected by our continental friends, Msrs Brown and Blair would have held a referendum on it, telling us it, in its entirety, was the best thing for Britain since sliced bread.

Now, the Constitution is back, minus some parts, and called a treaty. Mr Brown is saying it is no good, without red lines, which may, or may not be meaningless.

Surely, if he thought the Constitution was the gold standard, he should be backing the treaty in full, (and saying we can add the other old bits later)?

If, on the other hand, our continental friends have added some bits back in, which we had eliminated from the Constitution the first time round, and it is these that Mr Brown has red lines over, he should take it as an act of bad faith by our friends, and put it to the country anyway.

So much for honesty, and principle. Sounds like a convenient fix to me. Perhaps for new polititcs, we really need new politicians!

Damien Collis, Monchengladbach, Germany

There are the British and then there are the Continentals.

Dave, Boulder City, NV,USA

Who is this Constitution/Treaty For? Not for the commisioners. They have opted out of many of its provisions. You can't sue a member of the commmision, the EU police force etc.
Why have we not seen the treaty. Whay are they hiding? All we do know is that there are 117,000 laws passed including the EU arrest Warrant whichj allows any British man or woman to be arrested in Britain and WITHOUT referal to a British Magistrate where Habeus Corpus applies, be dragged off to an EU country where you are Guilty until proven innocent. And this is good????? But look at the corruption.
We pay £30millions a day or £11billions a year which according to the EU Auditors 95% is unnacounted for or plain missing. It is the biggest CONM in History. We have our independence our own currency and foriegn reserves which, they want. No we should not hand any more sovereighn ty over to this corrupt self serving group as a mnatter of fact we must be like Norway and get back our Independence and country.

John Donaldson, Farnborough, Hampshire

Be very very careful. We are gradually having our sovereignty stripped away and shipped over to a non-elected shadow government in Europe.

They will be able to impose legal laws and economic policy on a British electorate that they have no accountability to whatsoever. In the past we have fought wars to prevent this.

We are sleep walking into a trap. Dude, where's my country?

Shane, guildford, uk

As the EU, already the world's business regulator according to the Economist no less, becomes an ever closer union it becomes crunch time for the UK.
The other member states are obviously fed up with the deluded bleatings of the whingeing Poms. A nation that can't deliver efficient, decent health care and whose foreign policy is made in Washington needs the European model more than ever.
Should the UK leave teh EU it is inevitable that Scotland and, probably, Wales would do likewise. The English need to face reality about their inept little country.

Eddie Reader, birmingham, uk

It's not merely designed to improve the efficiency of the EU, it's intended to create a superstate. We can seek associate status with the EU (not a full member of the EUSSR) and preserve our sovereignty. The way the EU runs itself with its scelerotic economic practices will hardly make itself a dynamic player in the 21st century.

wilson, London, uk

What many of us have been saying for a long, long time is that there never were "red lines" in relation to the revamped EU constitution, qua treaty, as far as the UK was concerned. This was the last gasp of Blair spin - and his successor bought into it because he knew a referendum vote would hole the good ship Brown below the water line. The first surprise is that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office didn't come up with an iron ringed fence around the red lines - which suggests either they were asleep or they knew the red lines would be rendered meaningless by a thousand rulings of the European Court. The second surprise is that Italy, no doubt in the person of Mr Prodi, wants to remove the UK's red lines!! Italy, like Greece, agrees to everything decided in Brussels and then implements very little in practice. Italy even wishes to expel EU citizens. Greece prefers to give voting rights to expats in Albania, Australia and America rather than EU citizens living and working here. Chaos!

Dr David Green, Athens, Greece

What the EU means by 'improved efficiency' is the ability to make laws behind closed doors by people you will never be allowed to vote for, with no means of opting out, even if this is completely against the will of the British people and against the interests of the UK. And if you haven't realised by now that politicians make laws in their own interests then you've been asleep since 1997.

If we are ordered to produce a national DNA database, all British citizens will be compelled to co operate. If we are ordered to surrender our grandmothers to a work camp in Belgium, we will be compelled to co operate, and this treaty will allow an EU police force to enter this country and enforce anything the EU likes. Only after it is signed will the British people be allowed to know the true extent of how they have been sold down the river by an arrogant politician who had no right or mandate to do it, and like the EU does not believe in democracy. This is a truly wicked piece of work.

Helen, Northants,

The vast majority of British People do not even want to be a part of this EEC fiasco, the sooner we have the promised REFERENDUM the better. It is clearly pointless voting for Labour,Conservative or Liberal as personal ambitions mean far more to them than the will of the people.
Our only hope is to vote for the independants, in the hope that they will honour their election promises instead of having their sights set on the Great European Gravy Train.
Any Government that does not honour it's promises needs to be impeached and removed from office just as one would naturally dismiss any other incompetetant in one's employ.

Clive Burghard , LANCING, ENGLAND

If Britain signs on to to the new EU constitution they might do away with their own political system as they will be forever ruled from the European Parliament and that will be the end of a sovereign Britain.

Dave. ex Pat., Agassiz, B.C. Canada

So we do need a referendum after all.

Scamp, Aberdeenshire,

What people fail to realise is that Britain is not the only country affected by the changes. All EU member states are affected - its just that Britain thinks it is the only one. It is essential to get a new treaty that improves the efficiency of the EU. Isn't that what we have been asking for? I think once and for all, we need to decide whether we want to be part of Europe or sidelined in our own miserable little island. And don't mention the commonwealth because in 10 years, that is unlikely to exist.

Richard D, Plymouth, UK