Philip Webster, Political Editor
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The constitutional relationship between England and the rest of the United Kingdom has been thrown to the centre of the next general election after senior Conservatives backed plans to strip Scottish MPs of the right to vote on English matters.
Several members of the Shadow Cabinet supported in principle a plan for an English Grand Committee that would mean Gordon Brown and other Cabinet ministers being unable to vote on English schools or hospitals.
Labour gave warning that this could lead to “constitutional anarchy”. Ministers accused the Tories of threatening the existence of the Union.
English MPs have been growing restive over the money received by Scotland from the Treasury. At its conference in Aviemore this weekend, the Scottish National Party confirmed plans to abolish prescription charges. The previous administration, led by Labour, had already introduced free personal care for the elderly and scrapped university tuition fees. English MPs argue that these benefits are being paid for by their constituents.
In his leader’s speech to the SNP conference yesterday, Alex Salmond, the First Minister, stoked the fire by claiming that Scotland would be “immeasurably better off” if it separated from the rest of the UK.
He accused England of depriving Scotland of North Sea oil revenues and of holding his country back. He said that Scotland would be the third most prosperous country in Europe, and the sixth in the world, if it had sole control of oil revenues.
Under the Conservative plan, the English Grand Committee, made up of English MPs, would sit in the chamber of the Commons and deal with matters relating to England. MPs from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would continue to sit together to vote on UK-wide matters such as foreign affairs or taxation.
The idea, the brainchild of Sir Malcolm Rifkind, the former Tory Cabinet minister, came amid signs that English MPs from all parties are dissatisfied that Scots are enjoying benefits denied to their constituents.
Sir Malcolm said that his plans were the unfinished business of devolution. “When the House of Commons is discussing English housing or English health or English transport, then why should that not just be left to the English Members of Parliament to decide upon? When these matters are being discussed in Northern Ireland or in Scotland, it’s the Scots and the Northern Irish who decide these matters. That’s what devolution’s all about.”
A Conservative spokesman confirmed that the plan was being considered but said that no decision had yet been taken on whether it would be adopted as party policy. Caroline Spelman, the chairwoman, said that the plan would give a “greater sense of fairness” to the settlement between England and the devolved administrations.
Nick Herbert, the Shadow Justice Secretary, said: “We believe in the Union and we are determined to strengthen it. So we will rebalance our constitution by ensuring that MPs in English constituencies have the decisive say over English laws.”
Sir Malcolm’s idea is being considered by David Cameron’s democracy taskforce, led by the former Chancellor Kenneth Clarke, which is due to report back in the next few months.
Harriet Harman, the Labour deputy leader, told the BBC that the Government would not support plans that threatened the UK and that what people really wanted was more “regional accountability”. She added: “I think this is a very, very dangerous line of argument that the Conservatives are pushing. They used to be the Conservative and Unionist Party and now they are making proposals which wouldn’t help strengthen regional accountability in England but would actually, I think, threaten the Union.”
Ruth Kelly, the Transport Secretary, accused the Tories of “playing fast and loose” with the constitution. “I think it is a recognition by the Conservatives that they are effectively now an English party,” she told Sky News.
Scotland has had its own Parliament, with powers over education, health, the environment, home affairs and income tax, since 1999. The National Assembly for Wales, which was first elected in the same year, has more limited functions, and the power-sharing Northern Ireland Assembly was restored in May 2007.
Mr Salmond told The Andrew Marr Show on BBC One that he backed the idea of English votes for English laws, but that a Grand Committee did not go far enough. “I think the right solution is to have a Scottish Parliament and an English Parliament – I believe independent parliaments – and to do the job properly as opposed to having some sort of spatchcocked solution to appeal for votes in Middle England.”

Devolved economy
— The Barnett Formula was devised in the late 1970s by Joel Barnett, then Chief Secretary to the Treasury. It gives Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales a proportionate increase or decrease in funding linked to English public spending
— The formula is linked to population figures. A change in public expenditure in one geographical area leads to a change in public expenditure in others, proportionate to population
— Under the formula, Scotland gets about £22 billion a year from the Treasury, which means that public spending is higher per head of population north of the Border
— As a result, poor English regions such as the North East receive less money than prosperous areas of Scotland
— Last year Lord Barnett called for the system to be replaced with a formula reflecting the needs of each region, regardless of geography
Source: Times database

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The people of England find themselves in a position that the majority of people in Scotland will happily agree is unfair and should not be allowed to drag on. However, this situation is not the result of the perfidy of "the Scots" (entire peoples cannot be assigned character traits --- at least not honestly). The true culprits are the supine or self-serving English MPs that you have chosen to elect. After all, no one who doesn't want to be laughed at would seriously suggest that 59 Scottish MPs can dictate their will in a chamber of 646 members.
For my own part I believe that devolution was a lash-up job meant as a sop to national aspirations rather than a well conceived solution for improving relations within these islands. Yet another half-cocked solution from a failed Scottish Conservative is not the answer.
England needs a parliament -- either devolved, federal or independent. However, it's not the Scots that you are going to need to convince of that!
England needs a parliament
C Addison, Glasgow,
It is totally proposterous to argue that Scottish MP's should be allowed to decide upon soley English issues and incredible to argue it is fair that they should do so... Scottish MP's votes' allowed Mr.Blair to implement university top-up fees in England, whereas the same Scottish MP's voted against the same initiative to be applied to students in Scotland. This prompts me to ask the question- where is the equality in that?
Laura, Sheffield University, Yorkshire
As a small boy watching sport on a 12 inch TV, I supported England and if they were not in the contest I supported the 3 other countries that made up the UK.
As I progressed to manhood I began to hear that the Scotts supported Scotland first and second any other nation that was playing England.
Then I started to attend the Engalnd v Scotland matches at Wembley, and I saw first hand the hatred the Scotts have for the English. Wembley would be full of all the anglo Scotts that lived in London and the maurding drunks that would come down from Scotland for the match. It was like a home game for Scotland . Then they wanted home rule.
Now they rule England AND have there own Parliament.
There is even allow a Scotsman to commentate the Premiership and FA Cup. (Can you imagine an Englishman being allowed to do that up there in Scotland).
I have never been to Scotland and will never go. Wake up my fellow Englishmen, they are taking over our country. Send them back and build a bigger wall.
Roger , Perth, Western Australia
When it comes to real democracy this is a hum dinger!
If the Tory press got their priorities right they would spend more time addressing this REAL ISSUE that is flagrantly obvious to a five year old, rather than harping on about the EU.
Let's get back English sovereignty and enjoy our "independence" within a United Europe!
Peter Goddard, Epsom, England, EU.
Would the Tories be so keen to do this if their were more Tories PMs from Scotland at Westminster after all the Scots love the Tories so much they currently only have one Mp from Scotland at Westminster. If its English only matters for English PMs then it should be Scots PMs only on none devolved matters. In that case Scotland would not have been used as Guinea Pigs for the Poll tax as English Tories MPs voted on We may have even got the refit on Trident
All this is doing is building an anti Scott's momentum in England Its high time folk south of Watford realised that Scotland is a Country not a region of Britain
IMACOMPUTERBUDDIE, isle of cumbrae, scotland
It's funny, since 1823, 14 laws have been passed in Scotland that Scots MP's did not want, in that same time frame to date there have only been 7 laws passed in England that the majority of English MP's did not want. Devolution stopped 14 becoming 15, but you guys down South can't complain until you hit the 14 mark either, if it was good enough for us then surely it's good enough for you...
Will the new formula take into account all the oil monies from Scottish waters because that is where the extra cash comes from? Having the worst poverty and violence in the developed world as found by the UN, surely entitles us to a little extra too, no?
Graeme, Edinburgh,
As a Scot I can tell you that many of us think this is unfair and don't like it either.
The system breeds resentment from the numberous English people that live in Scotland... regardless of whether they get the benefits or not (or whether they have even been to England in the last 20 years).
This problem needs to be fixed and Alex Salmond has the best idea. I'm not for the break up of the Union but a seperate English parliament (or indeed two North and South English parliaments) with the same powers as the Scottish one alongside an overarching UK parliament would be much fairer.
Bob, Aberdeen,
So elected English people, living in England having a vote on English issues would threaten the union? How did we all guess that they may come up with something shocking in order to threaten us all? The union be damned, this is England and it should belong exclusively to the English.
judy, Liverpool, england
How much travelling expense and CO2 would be saved if the Scots in the "English Parliament" stayed up north.Let alone other incidental costs.
derek bevan, Huntingdon/Cambs, England/UK
If it looks like an elephant, feels like an elephant and smells like an elephant guess what... it's probably an elephant. Union what union? Maria is right, if you give England a parliament it is the end of the union. Thanks Blair, you have your legacy. England must have a parliament and the union will end. On the 26th October - King Alfred's day, England was 1080 years old. The 300 year old imperial party is over, it actually finished in 1945 but nobody told the British. Well the train to independence is now in the station and is just about to leave. All aboarrrdddd!!!!
stubby, Telford, England
When it comes to real democracy this is a hum dinger!
If the Tory press got their priorities right they would spend more time addressing this REAL ISSUE that is flagrantly obvious to a five year old, rather than harping on about the EU.
Let's get back English sovereignty and enjoy our "independence" within a United Europe.
Peter Goddard, Epsom, England, EU.
I think all the British MP's should stop trying to earn Brownie points against each other and FOCUS on the future of the whole of the United Kingdom.
There are more important matters to worry about South of the Boarder and North of the Boarder such as Gun crimes, illegal immigrants etc.
Bill Ewing, Dundee, UK
When it comes to real democracy this is a hum dinger!
If the Tory press got their priorities right they would spend more time addressing this REAL ISSUE that is flagrantly obvious to a five year old, rather than harping on about the EU.
Let's get back English sovereignty and enjoy our "independence" within a United Europe.
Peter Goddard, Epsom, England, EU.
Scotland has its own Health Service which is paid for from the Scottish budget.
Up until now it has always suited English national interest to have an economically dependant Scotland (or at least the perception of such) on the northern border. With the larger European Union beckoning for greater intigration, and the Empire long gone, there is no pressing need for the UK. Why be a member of two unions?
David Glen, Glasgow, Strathclyde
How many bang on along the lines:
"If Scotland wants X then let Scotland pay for it"?
A couple of facts:
1) Scotland gets a block grant, and if the govt. wants to abolish prescription charges it comes out of that, not from any extra money.
2) North Sea oil has kept the UK afloat for the last 30+ years.
Andy, Glasgow, Scotland
Phillip Webster , you lack vision in your approach to this. You cannot have Parliaments in Scotland and Wales with greater fiscal and political autonomy and at the same time not have one for England. That would be regional imbalance and unfairness if there ever was one.
New Labour started the devolution process and they cannot be hypocrites of their own making. If you believe in equality then you shall stand forth and demand a Parliament for the English. Anything short is hypocrisy of the highest magnitude by those architects whom devised the devolution process and they know it.
Furthermore such regional imbalances by the denial of an English Parliament can be challenged successfully in the European Courts. I think the constitutional experts know that as well. There can be no form of discrimination in these lands whatsoever and that includes political ones as well.
The Director, LONDON, England
The SNP in Westminster have NEVER voted on English only issues.
I would expect other MPs in Scotland Wales and Ireland would think that the situation is unfair and would gladly abstain too!
As someone mentioned the Scots have been ruled and ignored,much like the North of England for a very,very long time.Scotland has had a devolved parliament for only eight years.
Can someone tell me why the labour,Conservative and Liberal party refuse to allow us Scots a vote on independence?
Are they scared that we will vote with a resounding 'Yes'?
Otherwise,what has Scotland got that the UK government is so keen to hang on to?
Disgruntled Dorothy, Glasgow, Scotland
What an absolute cheek for the Labour Government to acuse the Conservative proposal as "leading to the break up of the Union". This Government has instigated the misguided policies that will inevitably lead to that break up, and the Conservatives are at least trying to suggest some logic and integrity into the debacle that Labour has created.
Steve, London, UK
The big issue with us South of the border is that the so called NATIONAL Health Service descriminates to the detriment of the English contributors.
It is a totally unacceptable and disgraceful situation and if it is allowed to continue then Scotland needs to brace itself for an influx of silver rinsers.
If Scotland wants its own rule then great let it have its own health service and let it pay for it.
Dek Crossingham, Birmingham, England
Bit rich coming from Labour.
They were the ones that broke the Union via devolution.
Richard Drayton, Bromley,
Does no one else see the irony of an expanding EU, when the Union of the UK is breaking up. History repeating itself - hopefully the EU won't last as long as the ROman Empire. And the Scots deserve their idependance, as do the English.
W Smith, Oldham,
Again the government is in denial. Under Blair, they promised to address the West Lothian Question. Now they attack a solution put forward by the opposition without presenting their own.
Ian Allerton, Watford,
Labour "put the Union in peril" years ago with Scottish and Welsh devolution. The time has come to redress the balance. We don't want regional goverment as Harriet Harman suggests. We want a full strength ENGLISH government with all the same powers etc as the Scottish version. We could of course use the moment to fix other non working parts of democracy like the removal of any authority not actually directly elected by the people (National Park Authorities and Regional Councils in England come to mind).
I think all this comes under the heading of fixing the mess that Labour have got us into.
Dave Rushworth, Lancaster, UK
Look at this proposal logically. Given that devolution exists, the situation now results in Scottish MPs having two votes - on Scottish and on UK domestic legislation. That cannot be just and if the Scots want devolution, they must accept that they cannot vote on English domestic matters. What would be the reaction if English MPs had retained the right to vote on Scottish domestic legislation?
John, Eastbourne, UK
There was no 'delicate balance' until Labour foisted this inequitable devolution system on us, it is entirely their fault that unfairness will eventually be resented and reform ensue. The Union is certainly in peril if based on this current constitutional injustice.
Why did Brown et al imagine that the English constituencies would settle for MPs from North of the border voting on English policies, often detrimental to the English, while their own constituents are under a different parliament?
Cheryl, Witney, UK
Harriet Harman as Deputy Leader of the Labour party thinks people want more regional devolution in England. Just like John Prescott (as deputy leader of the Labour party) suggested regional assemblies (rejected) and elected mayors (rejected in some places). One wonders quite where the evidence supporting Ms Harman's ideas come from! Given the electoral logic, especially once Scotland and Wales are included, is skewed towards Labour, is her response any surprise?
So, a challenge to Ms Harman: try it - experiment with a practice that Scottish and Welsh MPs do not vote on matters solely about England. If the union seems to collapse, move away from the practice and everyone can think again. At present alarmist language is being bandied around without any actual evidence being put forward.
John, London,
This is a classic Union break up situation.
History shows that as soon as the main country of a Union has its own parlament, in this case England, - it would be the death warrant for the whole Union.
When Russia had it parlament, the Soviet Union broke appart.
The largest country must NOT have its own parlament for the Union to survive
Maria, Moscow, Russia
The Conservative plan for an "English Grand Committee" only makes sense if it is the intention of certain jingoistic elements within the party to irrevocably damage the delicate constitutional balance presently ascendant. Whilst it would be desirable to enable English MP's to vote on English matters, Westminster remains home to the British parliament - not England's. If devolution is to work properly, we must all have our own parliaments, or not at all, but denuding Westminster of its historical inheritance is not the way to do this. Furthermore, the Conservatives forget that England overwhelmingly dominates not only Westminster, but the United Kingdom proper, due to its sheer size and economic clout. Therefore, what affects England affects the United Kingdom as well. It is thus extremely difficult to say what does and/or does not constitute an English only matter. Hence the danger of this model. Nevertheless, a broad-based constitutional re-modelling for the future is much desired.
Tim Palmer, Leicester, UK
The Tories are right for once (though for the wrong reasons of course). Scots MPS probably should have no say on purely English matters; just as English MPs should have no say on purely Scots matters. The Scots had the sense to set up their own parliament - the English would benefit from the same.
Baxter, Dunedin,
Was the Union really safe after Devolution? The proposal for a English Grand Committee is a practical solution to solve an unfairness against the English.
I find it both amusing and tragic that everyone seems to have fixated on this proposal as the "cause" of a possible break up of the Union and completely ignored Devolution which happened only a few years ago and allowed the SNP to take governent in Scotland.
John Goh, Welwyn Garden City, UK
Typical.......so after decades of English MP's meddling in Scottish affairs the English are now complaining about the boot being on the other foot. Long may this continue, thankfully it appears true that "what goes around comes around" and it has been a long time coming and I'm sure the Scots are quietly smirking to themselves at the English reaction.
john, bc canada,