Francis Elliott and Alex Frean
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It is the social responsibility of all adults to discipline other people’s children, David Cameron, the leader of the Conservative party, said yesterday.
His uncompromising message sparked renewed debate over who should confront errant children and in what circumstances.
The murder of Garry Newlove, kicked to death after he remonstrated with a gang of drunken teenagers outside his home, led to claims that the police had surrendered the streets to violent youths.
Mr Cameron said ordinary citizens should do more, not less, to discipline juveniles. Launching the Tories’ Childhood Review, he said: “We have retreated into our homes. We need to reclaim the streets, to resocialise the streets, the parks, the playgrounds.”
The package, developed in response to a report by Unicef last year, which ranked Britain the least child-friendly of 21 rich nations, contains a series of proposals to improve childhood in Britain. Mr Cameron’s claim that “we need boundaries that are monitored and enforced by all adults” is likely to prove the most controversial.
The Conservative leader said: “Parents cannot and should not be with their children all of the time. We need adults to feel able to exert authority over and show compassion towards other people’s children. This basic social responsibility, in many ways the mark of a civilised society, has been dramatically undermined by a risk-averse health and safety culture which, at times, has poisoned the relationship between adults and children.
“This is a disaster for our society and we have to reverse it. We need boundaries that are monitored and enforced by all adults, not as lone soldiers but as part of the social fabric.”
The Government, however, appeared to suggest that the police were best placed to tackle yobbish behaviour. A Home Office spokesman insisted that the introduction of neighbourhood police teams from April would help local communities to identify children causing trouble.
The NSPCC suggested that adults should confront children only if a child were in danger. “We would only want someone to intervene if they thought a child was at risk in some way,” a spokeswoman said.
Robert Whelan, deputy director of the right-of-centre think-tank Civitas, said that Mr Cameron’s remarks, while welcome in theory, were simply unrealistic: “If you saw a group of yobs ripping up the seats on the bus you would be an idiot to intervene because they would just rip you up too.”
Mr Cameron’s comments suggest that children are now occupying a place in the centre of political debate.
Last December the Government’s Children’s Plan promised to “make England the best place in the world for children and young people to grow up in”. Today Ed Balls, the Children’s Secretary, will announce plans to make the streets safer for young people.
While the Government has put most of its emphasis on helping parents, Mr Cameron has widened the debate, encouraging society at large to take responsibility for socialising the next generation. It is a move welcomed widely by most children’s organisations and experts.
Frank Furedi, Professor of Sociology at the University of Kent and author of the book Paranoid Parenting, said: “There has been a decline in adult solidarity, where we take responsibility for the socialisation of the next generation and play a role confronting bad behaviour or supporting a children when they are troubled.”
The dangers of intervention
- Garry Newlove, 47, right, died of head injuries last August after confronting a group of youths who were vandalising the family’s car outside their Warrington home
- David Martin, 40, a window cleaner, was stabbed to death last week in South London after asking a neighbour to return his son’s football
- Jack Straw, Justice Secretary, was accused of assault when he helped to make a citizen’s arrest at Oval Underground station. The boy was handed over to police
- Stevens Nyembo-Ya-Muteba, 40, was killed after asking 12 youths to be quiet in the stairwell of his block of flats in Hackney, East London, in October 2006
- Tim Eggar, a Tory minister under Margaret Thatcher, allegedly got into a fight in South London after he reprimanded two girls for picking flowers from his garden. One of their fathers visited his flat and said they fought together in the gutter
- Kevin Johnson, 22, was stabbed to death last May after he asked youths outside his Sunderland home to be quiet
- Alan Toogood, 50, died after being attacked by youths who lit a fire in the stairwell of a block of flats near his home in Yeovil, Somerset, in September 2006
- Peter Woodhams, 22, was shot dead at his home in East London in 2006 after confronting youths who had been terrorising his family
Source: Times database
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I confronted foul-mouthed and aggressive yobs who were annoying, frightening, and abusing my fellow train passengers and found myself embroiled in a fight. Now, a week later, I have been arrested for assaulting the louts. Who's side are the police on?
Mick Roberts, Liverpool, England
Well Said Mr Cameron. It is about time that we as a nation stood up to these yobs. I can understand why people might not want to.
But it is important to stop them before they become that bad.
Gary Newlove was a hero and should be treated as such. If the people of his his community had backed him up it wold of been better. If there is ten kids acting up send out ten blokes to challenge them. But Adults will even turn a blind eye during the day. The Law should also back up the people who challenge these yobs. I tell off children if i see them doing wrong. Most will stand there and listen.
I do live in a village and know that its different in a city centre. If they are rude i will see their Parents. Its about time they also took responsibility. They can;t be with them at all time but they can do something if they are rude.
Roll o9n the Election.
Simon Macklin , wimborne , Dorset.
I dislike Labour's attempts to use 'Dave's' background against him, but when he says silly things like this I think that maybe Labour have a point.
What does the podgy little numpty think would happen to him if he tried to 'tell off' a gang of drunken yobs ?
He'd end up being scraped off the pavement, that's what.
Bob, Liverpool, UK
Until Brits strip Social Progressives of their Politically Correct Powers, British Society will continue to deteriorate.
I just read about a teacher facing 3 YEARS in prison for slapping a student who cussed the teacher.
What sheer societal and judicial IDIOCY allows that a teacher face ANY detrimental consequences, for properly disciplining a kid who needed it!!!
The politicians who made laws terrorizing innocent adults for disciplining out of control kids, should themselves be jailed, for trying to destroy the very society they are supposed to protect.
Bring back corporal punishment for students.
Bring back the right of home owners to protect themselves.
Bring back the right of individuals on the street, to protect themselves.
It is time to STOP politicians from creating a police society and stripping law abiding individuals of their right to defend themselves, their families, their neighbors, and their properties.
Cheers from the Rockies
J.Russell Bailey, Midwest, USA/Wyoming
Perhaps politicians could remind us all of every citizen's common law right to arrest someone causing a breach of the peace and support anyone bravely taking such action where the circumstances justify it.
Fourty years ago this ancient legal power was widely used by the police themselves for cracking down on anti-social behaviour. For the record; "There is a breach of the Peace whenever harm is actually done or is likely to be done to a person or in his presence to his property or a person is in fear of being so harmed through an assault, an affray, a riot, unlawful assembly or other disturbance." R. v Howell 1981.
Of course not everyone would want to do this but it does give a legal basis to detaining and using reasonable force to do so. This might give people confidence that there is a defence against counter-productive police attention when they defend their homes, property or families. It would also send a much-needed message to young yobs that they are not untouchable.
Mike, Reading, UK
"What a 24 carat gold numpty this man is.
Henry Adams, Manchester, UK"
Thank you for your contribution to the debate Henry
Colin Foster, Bangkok, Thailand
Intervention against misbehaving children by can only happen if adults are regarded as figures of authority. Teachers and policemen once had authority but it was stripped away by governments who only believe in power and that power can only come fron the state ie them. Governments of the left / liberal pursuasion do not believe in natural authority, that is a conservative (small 'c') concept and therefore it is a bad thing in their strange litte minds. Note the Home Office's comments about "neighbourhood police teams helping communities identify troublesome childern". The local community will know who the troublesome children, they just want to be able to deal with it, but under the left wing philosophy that runs Britain no one can confront these children as the only authority allowed is through legal written staute powers that government can control. All of which means, touch a child you and are not a figure of authority but a criminal. So much for Dave's good intentions
Richard Morgon, Fareham, Hants
Spot on in theory - but the law must be on our side. We must not allow yobs to think they have more rights than others. If someone tackles a yob, there must be no possiblity that they will be punished for it. When the law is firmly back on our side, then we can start intervening.
Gareth, Winchester,
What is missing from all this is an adequate description of the source of the problems.
A better description of the juveniles involved in every case of violence, with background, family, academic, economic and domicile.
Either that, or arm the populace.
Richard Schweitzer, Atlanta, U.S.A.
The British culture needs to be changed, starting with the revamp of the parliamentary system, environmental issues, alcohol consumption, the cost of living , education, social welfare handouts, exercise and nutrition, sporting mania, racism, religion, health. Yes, a major cultural change is urgently needed. It all comes back to the parliamentary system and the way Britain is governed.
Jim Wills, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Prepare the child for the path, not the path for the child.
Sunshine, USA,
Well said, it is time we bring discipline, respect and confidence within the children. They are young adults and hopefully, the future of this country, they should be respected. They have been led on the wrong path for many years; we should not put all the blame upon them. The government should take the majority of the blame for their interfering and condescending attitude towards the future generation. This government should be ashamed of its self. What have they managed to achieve? During Thatcher years we had the Yuppies and with Blair/Brown years they have created gang and Yob culture. What a transformation.
YT, London, UK
Has he tried to reason with a crowd of 14 yr olds, can't he remember the hoodie last year? I tried on a bus recently to stop a bunch from using foul language in front of female pensioners who were obviously shocked. All I got was a stream of abuse. They should have been put off the bus but unfortunately, as they well know, the law is on their side.
P Wilson, Brighton,
These days, like it or not, if you so much as put a hand upon a child, you're putting yourself so at risk, from the police, the courts, from society.
Until the law is changed, I wont be stepping up to the mark.
Arthur, Newcastle,
Some people think their child is an angel and can do no wrong. I used to work in a toyshop and I got very annoyed with parents who let their children do whatever they liked. This can lead to health and safety problems, such as climbing up shelves. Yet when I intervene to tell the kid to GET DOWN in a firm voice, the kids starts crying and I am the mean shop person who has told them off and the parents are the good guys!
I just saved your kids life!
Aimee, Bath ,
Spot on Mr Cameron. This is the root of the problem of Britain's society, in that we have become too reserved and individualistic to the point of hiding behind legislation like child protection and health and safety... what on earth has happened to common sense. Children need discipline and depend upon the authorative adult to get it. One of the biggest misconceptions in our country is that children dislike boundaries and prefer chaos instead, and even that they are incapable of being responsible etc. We need to empower these children....we need to build quality parks in the community and give them a sense of ownership and responsibility rather than simply expecting them to behave badly. This 'resocialisation' starts at school level where we place the child at the centre of his own learning and behaviour. Right now, it's the education system and a general ethos in our communities that represses children (labels them incompetent of taking responsibility).
Jason Smart, Stockport, Cheshire
this is ridiculous, noone intervenes anymore! everyone is too scared of the consequences if they do as you can see with the dangers of intervention above! no, they would rather turn a blind eye & ignore the situation. I say this as a foreigner living in this country before I go home where they have outlawed 'smacking' If a parent cannot even discipline their own child with a harmless smack, why should they be trying to discipline someone else's child when they have no idea how the parent is likely to react to that?
Cameron should worry about setting a better safety example for children by wearing a helmet while cycling rather than telling us to discipline other parents children in this broken down big brother camera society! Maybe if all the parents weren't out working discipline wouldn't be so bad?! But no, we have to keep that economy growing - forget about happy families!!
Jonty, Oxford, Oxfordshire
In Nigeria a misbehaving child can expect to get a thrashing right there in the street. And there is no point in complaining to your parents as you'll likely get another. The result is kids a lot happier than British kids, who are often unpleasant, or very unpleasant.
It's time this country stopped confusing physical punishment with assault. Assault is unjust violence, just as murder is unjust killing. A malicious or disrespectful kid deserves corporal punishment, and witholding it is an abuse of the development of the child far worse that ordinary forms of child abuse. The child will grow up to be unhappy, and inflict unhappiness on those around them.
Sometimes individuals are able to discipline a child without resort to violence, but these people are in a minority, as with good school teachers with excellent class discipline. For the rest of us we must administer corporal punishment to make up for our natural, and common, deficiency of authority. Our kids will be much happier.
Greg Lorriman, Leatherhead, UK
What a 24 carat gold numpty this man is.
Henry Adams, Manchester, UK