Nicola Smith and Michael Smith
Take a trip to New York and see the city from the air
Read Mick Smith's defence blog
Two hundred years after the battle of Trafalgar, the navy could end up sharing the pride of its fleet with the French. Driven by spiralling budgets, the two navies began talks last week aimed at sharing their aircraft carriers.
The government is expected to give the go-ahead for the Royal Navy’s two new aircraft carriers this week, part of a joint Anglo-French project to build a total of three.
The French, who currently have only one carrier, the Charles de Gaulle, are questioning whether they can afford a replacement and are keen to explore closer co-operation with Britain instead.
“We all have budget constraints and we are looking to see how we can rationalise and reinforce our resources and work together,” commented a French diplomat who is close to the talks.
Both countries are facing a £2 billion shortfall in their defence budgets and the cost of the new carriers at just under £2 billion each is proving a major burden.
The “bilateral carrier group interoperability initiative” was proposed by the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, at his summit meeting with Gordon Brown in London in March.
French sources suggest it could result in either navy borrowing an aircraft carrier from the other if their own was unavailable as a result of a breakdown or refit.
“If we have no carrier to do a mission then the only way currently is to try and form a coalition . . . and to ask a country if it will do the mission,” said Captain Jérôme Erulin, the French naval spokesman.
Erulin pointed out that Britain and France could only borrow each other’s carriers if both countries agreed on the military objectives. “The only way for France to obtain an air carrier mission during a carrier refit is to ask a country at a political level to do this,” he said.
Nick Witney, former head of the European Defence Agency, said that if France could not afford to go ahead with a new carrier, sharing capabilities with the British made good sense.
“It could do a deal with the Brits to co-ordinate refit cycles and joint naval forces,” Witney said. “Then the French can say if we want to bomb someone when our single carrier is in refit the Brits can do it for us.”
MoD officials dismissed the talks as “aspirational” and insisted there were “no current plans” to share carriers with the French.
The problem with having only a single carrier is not confined to the French. Earlier this year Bob Ainsworth, minister for the armed forces, confirmed that one of the Royal Navy’s two existing carriers, the Ark Royal, will go out of service in 2012.
The first of the new carriers is not due in service until 2014 at the earliest, leaving the Royal Navy with only one carrier for a period of at least two years.
The other British carrier, Illustrious, will go out of service in 2015, Ainsworth said, again leaving the navy with only one carrier until the second replacement is completed in 2016 at the earliest.
That means the Royal Navy will have only one carrier for at least four years, so that despite its talk of mere “aspirations” it might be forced to borrow a carrier from the French.
Follow our three athletes' progress in their preparations for the London Triathlon, and pick up training tips and more
Enjoy screenings of all the classic films you love, plus take advantage of two-for-one tickets
We explore leisure activities that are safe and suitable for all of the family
Times Online's new TV show helps you make the right decisions for your pet
Read our exclusive 100 Years of Fleming and Bond interactive timeline, packed with original Times articles and reviews
The latest travel news plus the best hotels and gadgets for business travellers
Shortcuts to help you find sections and articles


A treasure trove of baubles, booty and stylish quests


Overseas contacts and local business information

£129,500
Bentley Edinburgh
£79,850
Mercedes-Benz of Northampton
£26,995
Unit 1, Woodfield Business Unit, Kidderminster Road, Ombersley, Worcester.
Great car insurance deals online
90k + Bonus + Options
Confidential
London
£23,716 +
Highways Agency
National
£
£43,405 - £48,228 pa
Notting Hill Housing
London
£30,000 base, £100,000 OTE
Riches Consulting
London/South
Live in One of London's Most Vibrant Areas
From £249,950
Beautiful Gardens w/ stunning Thames Views
Studios £33K, 1 Beds £60K, 2 beds £79K
Mortgages, bank acc & money transfers to help you buy abroad
Explore mystical Jordan
From £1030 for 7nts 4*
to USA's Most Cosmopolitan City; San Francisco!
£POA
Book Now for Winter 08/09 and Get 10% off!
Great travel insurance deals online
Contact our advertising team for advertising and sponsorship in Times Online, The Times and The Sunday Times. Search globrix.com to buy or rent UK property. Visit our classified services and find jobs, used cars, property or holidays. Use our dating service, read our births, marriages and deaths announcements, or place your advertisement.
Copyright 2008 Times Newspapers Ltd.
This service is provided on Times Newspapers' standard Terms and Conditions. Please read our Privacy Policy.To inquire about a licence to reproduce material from Times Online, The Times or The Sunday Times, click here.This website is published by a member of the News International Group. News International Limited, 1 Virginia St, London E98 1XY, is the holding company for the News International group and is registered in England No 81701. VAT number GB 243 8054 69.
The French already have a capable carrier in the Charles De Gaulle. Surely that is enough if they ever want to emulate their greatest ever naval action (the sinking of Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior)
Mike, Carlisle, UK
As a US Navy veteran(USS NIMITZ),I do sympathize with Britain on this one. Lord Nelson is probably pleading with the Almighty right now to come down and pound a little sense into the MoD. Share with France? Not the Royal Navy I have admired since childhood!
Herb Smith, Houston, Texas, United States
To Denis Wills of Portsmouth (UK),
Cruise missile armed subs do not carry the same fire power as aircraft carriers do. Carriers are also a more visible type of warship when it comes to a bit of diplomacy, and more significantly, our navy would be anihilated in a war if we had no carriers.
Stephen Conroy, Northants,
What does Britain need them for? We have land-attack cruise missile submarines. We have to do without them for the next 15 years.
They will be something else to spot from the Spinnaker Tower and drum up B&B business for Pompey. It's not about defence but jobs and exporting other warships.
Dennis Wills, Portsmouth, UK
The US lend/leasing 2 or 3 of their navy's 'medium-sized' aircraft carriers to the UK could restore the RN to the viable force it was before Labour's '97 election.
- USS Makin Island (near commissioning)
- USS Iwo Jima (cm'd 2001)
Also would free-up funds for urgently needed ship replacement.
Roderick V. Louis, near Vancouver, Canada
This is all very sad. The British people and the Royal Navy deserve better than this. The Royal Navy were once pioneers of carrier aviation - now it's reduced to time-sharing ships with a continental power like France.
Mike B, Washington, DC, USA
Pigs might fly too.
Marcus, Perth, Australia
Absolutely farcical! Port Watch Brits, Starboard Watch Frogs. The first (stealthy) step towards a European Defence Force.
Mike Barclay PORTSMOUTH (of all places!).
Michael George Barclay, Waterlooville, England
Why not build 4 at the same time.
2 for France 2 for the UK
Main Costs could be shared
The end fitting out could for the UK be in the UK. And for the French in France
Then sell all our old carriers to South America
Nicholas Iles, Oswestry, Shropshire
When will UK Govts finally accept the reality that Britain cannot afford to be a world military power
Nick, St Ouen, Expat in France
Britain certainly CAN afford to be a global power. We have one of the highest GDPs in the world? Try not to let that inbuilt British pessimism drag you down too much
Stephen , Norwich, Norfolk
One of the most successful military aircraft joint projects of all time was the Anglo French Jaguar aircraft that was the backbone of the RAF Strike/Attack capability for many years.There is no reason why a joint carrier project should not be as successful. 3 ships should always allow 2 available!
Jimd, Norwich, uk
Britain and France have been poles apart on just about every foreign policy issue for about a generation. I'd like to see how this one will work, sounds like the chance for a really good hearty laugh!
Brian Roberts , Plymouth, UK
I can see big arguments during design - The english will want forward gears and the french lots of reverse
James, paris,
EU countries can't individually afford navies (armies, airforces) with the capablilities that the EU needs, but which the EU has the know-how to organise. If the solution is an EU Navy (army, airforce) what's the problem? Europe needs to be united or the barbarians will drive us into a new Dark Age.
B. A. Allsopp, Pretoria, South Africa
Another defense spending disaster on the way,
France uses completely different aircraft, and systems , Making it compatible and agreeing what is compatible. seriously this is what costs the money, not the steel. How could you train for this?. This is an attempt to wreck the program,
Hugo Chav, Notingham, UK
The Royal Navy carriers will not be able to operate the French Rafale M aircraft because they won't have catapuilts. The two Royal navy aircraft will operate the F35 Lightning 2 which is short take off and vertical landing and will be lauch via a Ski-ramp, the French are not buying this aircraft.
Kevin, Herts,
When will UK Govts finally accept the reality that Britain cannot afford to be a world military power. Carriers, Trident & Eurofighters are expensive glamorous toys but our troops lack basic equipment, helicopters, & Nimrod is over 40 years old. Stop the fantasy & get real Gordon, Des et al.
Nick, St Ouen, Expat in France
Cancel the olympics and buy back our defence capability.
You buy what you NEED before contemplating what you WANT.
If I ran my life like the Govt run this country, I'd have a holiday in Mauritius this summer and the bailiffs evicting me for Council tax by Autumn
Phill, The Wirral, England
Just one minor point, we in the UK will be operating the JSF jump jet variant of aircraft, the French have no such capability? and therefore would find the use of our carriers pointless unless they bought Jump Jets or our carriers were conventional take off and landing?
john, uk,
So they want us to have more and more people here by attacking abortion and supporting huge families ,but on the other hand they will not fund the ships that will protect our supplies . There is a logic gap here. We can't feed ourselves and what we can do we need oil to do it with.
Craig, Warwick, UK
Again, the government can find £2.7bn to bribe the Crewe and Nuneaton electorate, but evidentially not fully finance the new Royal Navy carriers. Nice to see where it's priorities lie. Disgusting. I can't wait to hear the 'spin' on this one. . . .
John C, London, UK
I had thought that the damage done to the UK by New Labour over eleven years would be mainly economic and that it could be recovered by sensible stewardship of a new government.
Obviously not. They have in fact ruined education, manufacturing and defence as well as the economy.
MarkS, Leeds,
Sharing ships, impossible! The RN chaps'll be rolling around on the floor after hearing this rubbish from some europile at the head of the EDA. This is a blatent ploy by the French to make us pay for a carrier and then have it absorbed into a (French controlled) EU navy. It will never happen.
Tom, Epsom, UK
Remind me, just how much has the government stumped up to support Northern Rock and more recently to try to encourage liquidity in the banking sector? Now they can't find enough for the navy!
Nick Smith, Gosport,
Does this government's stupidity know no bounds? Can anyone really believe that the two forces can shere something like an "aircraft carrier"?
I suggest that we bring the troops home and have a whip round to pay for a new carrier.
Hamad Lone, London, England
Britain must put its national defence ahead of the EU; if we cannot afford to protect our own country, then it is quite obvious we cannot afford the subsidise the rest of the EU....we must get out of the EU with the utmost of haste before it bankrupts this country of ours.
Lloyd, Conwy, UK
Perhaps Britain could use the carriers' on even days, and our French friends on odd days?
Gerallt Huws, Talsarnau, Cymru
Its funny how the government can find £2.7B to buy off a tax rebellion, and waste countless billions on education and health with little gain; superbugs still run rife, but they will not spend what is needed to provide adequate defence, yet thrill at sending our forces into action.
John Lewis, Upminster, UK
Move £2 billion out of the Quango budget (see article in this edition) to satisfy the Navy, and avoid teaming up with the French - leaving £99 billion to waste on useless govt bodies as we do now!! With this suggestion, Brown could probably make me Chancellor - he doesn't have one at the moment!
Paul C, Harlow, England
Vospers in Southampton sold out. The industrial land is now under planning applications for thousands of flats in a multi-story building fiasco and the two carriers will end up being built in France where, like Germany, they value their industrial base more than their financial services sector......
Chris Coles, Medstead, Alton, United Kingdom
This is pitiful . If we want play in the first division of world politics we need to budget adaquately. If we don't lets go and play handball with Switzerland instead.
Britain and France are both wealthy countries who can easily afford these carriers, its alll a matter of priorities.
andy , Lyon, France
An EU navy is the only logical option. Countries like UK and France cannot afford major carriers but Europe is weak and has no stomach for it so we continue with this pretence until we end up sharing one carrier between us!
adrian, London,
Solution extend the life of our carriers until the new ones are ready. I have served on carriers and I never saw a sell by date on any of them. It could be a bit grim if we fell out with the French when it was their turn to drive our carrier dont you think? EU Armed forces amalgamation anyone?
Cromwell, Leeds, England
oh my god, i don't actually believe that this government can stoop any lower. this is now just pathetic
john, londond,
This demostrates - yet again -the priorities of a Labour government. It can easily find £2.7 billion to try to win a by-election but is unable to find a lesser amount to defend the country.
And they wonder why we don't trust or respect them!
Bernard, Edinburgh, Scotland
I hear not just Nelson turning in his grave but the box as well crunching under the pressure. Is this the start of an EU Navy ?
Ian Payne, WALSALL,