Alexandra Frean, Education Editor
The man, the films, those blondes. Free DVD collection starting this Sunday
The founder of the Wikipedia online encyclopaedia criticised the Education Secretary yesterday for suggesting that the website could be a good educational tool for children.
Mr Johnson described the internet as “an incredible force for good in education” for teachers and pupils, singling out Wikipedia for praise.
“Wikipedia enables anybody to access information which was once the preserve only of those who could afford the subscription to Encyclopaedia Britannica and could spend the time necessary to navigate its maze of indexes and content pages,” he told the annual conference of the National Association of Schoolteachers and Union of Women Teachers (NASUWT) in Belfast.
But Larry Sanger, who helped to found Wikipedia in 2001, said that the site was “broken beyond repair” and no longer reliable.
Wikipedia is among the top ten most visited sites on the internet, containing more than six million articles contributed only by members of the public. But it has been criticised for being riddled with inaccuracies and nonsense.
Last month it was revealed that a prominent and long-standing Wikipedia contributor had lied about his identity, having claimed to be a tenured university professor, when he was in fact a 24-year-old college drop-out.
Concerned about the website’s integrity, Mr Sanger left Wikipedia, and two weeks ago launched an online encyclopaedia called Citizendium.org, which he said would be monitored and edited by academics and experts as well as accepting public contributions.
He told The Times: “I’m afraid that Mr Johnson does not realise the many problems afflicting Wikipedia, from serious management problems, to an often dysfunctional community, to frequently unreliable content, and to a whole series of scandals. While Wikipedia is still quite useful and an amazing phenomenon, I have come to the view that it is also broken beyond repair.”
Nick Gibb, the Tory schools spokesman, said: “A huge amount of the current curriculum, particularly in history, is devoted to teaching children to be discerning when it comes to information on the internet.
“It appears the Secretary of State is not quite as modern as he needs to be in this information age.”
Mr Johnson also used his speech to call on social networking websites to stop pupils posting inappropriate videos of and abusive comments about their teachers on the internet.
In one case a female teacher’s head was superimposed on to a pornographic photograph.
Mr Johnson said that the online harassment of teachers was causing some to consider leaving the profession. He called on the providers of websites to take firmer action to block or remove offensive school material, in the same way that they have cut pornographic content.
However, Chris Keates, the union’s general secretary, told Mr Johnson that his call was likely to have little impact.
Read the training tips and advice that helped our London Triathletes
Times Online's new TV show helps you make the right decisions for your pet
Read our exclusive 100 Years of Fleming and Bond interactive timeline, packed with original Times articles and reviews
The latest travel news plus the best hotels and gadgets for business travellers
Shortcuts to help you find sections and articles

Get Times news, business and sport on your mobile. Text Times to 86626



Overseas contacts and local business information

Our Credit Clinic has free help and advice
2007
£47,700
2007
£41,899
2008
£41,445
Great car insurance deals online
£25,510 – 32,000
Transport for London
London
£50k
NHS
Nationwide
£
£90,000 + PRP
Essex County Council
Essex
100K
Confidential
London
5% below developer pre-launch price!
Luxury Appts, beautiful gardens w/ Thames views
Great Investment, River Views
By Funway – Thailand
from £589pp
Christmas Cruises
From only £995pp
APTs East Coast now from only
£2425pp.
Great travel insurance deals online
Contact our advertising team for advertising and sponsorship in Times Online, The Times and The Sunday Times. Globrix Property Search - find property for sale and rent in the UK. Visit our classified services and find jobs, used cars, property or holidays. Use our dating service, read our births, marriages and deaths announcements, or place your advertisement.
Copyright 2008 Times Newspapers Ltd.
This service is provided on Times Newspapers' standard Terms and Conditions. Please read our Privacy Policy.To inquire about a licence to reproduce material from Times Online, The Times or The Sunday Times, click here.This website is published by a member of the News International Group. News International Limited, 1 Virginia St, London E98 1XY, is the holding company for the News International group and is registered in England No 81701. VAT number GB 243 8054 69.
Interesting the fact that about 40 volumes worth of Wikipedia content has been checked by a UK children's charity and organised by National Curriculum topics at http://schools-wikipedia.org seems to have slipped the notice of Chris Keates and Alan Johnson. Surely that would be exactly the right solution to all the issues raised with the content, and it is still completely free with no advertisments.
Andrew Cates, Cambridge,
Malcolm McLean makes a good point. These days more than ever, critical thinking on the part of individuals is necessary. Wikipedia for all the faults one might find with many articles is in tune with that messy reality.
I wish Citizendium.org well, but I wonder if the effort can't somehow be looped back into Wikipedia or serve as a sort of processor / refiner of vast amounts of WIkipedia data. "Competition" is good in some ways, but in this case some sort of "collaboration" might generate better results - by expanding on the process (and model) piloted by Wikipedia. The worst outcome would be if Citizendium takes away some of the best marbles but yields no net gain to quantity or quality available to users.
Don Osborn, Washington, DC
At last someone has written about what I have seen.
In Wikipedia, Religion, is a good example of subjects being written about by the Faithfull.
Other subjects which have obviously been highjacked and bouderized by groups with a particular point of view, are Israel and any misdeeds committed by Israel.
The infamous jewish terrorist organisation called The Stern Gang has even been had its name changed. Other subjects such as The Sabra & Shatila Massacre, The West Bank Occupation, The King David Terrorist Bombing etc. are explained and analyzed in such great detail so that the whole subjects are swamped with pages of words and the inherent badness of the acts are diluted.
Robin Bather, Metepec, Mexico
Of course wikipedia has limitations in reliability. And of course someone cannot be based solely on its infos.
Wiki's great power is that in most cases, it analyses/mentions many views on a subject, so everyone can use it as an ideal start-point when trying to gain deeper knowledge on the particular subject, especially in the case of pupils and students, being free and having a tremendous number of entries and interlinks.
Aris Papas, Athens, Greece
Wikipedia is a wonderful resource and I have been only too happy to provide a little financial support. I don't doubt it has its faults but to some extent these can be anticipated, such as entries for current politicians. For the most part it is a very good source of information which doesn't want you to register or subscribe and for which the editorial process is open and overt.
Still first on my favourites list.
Mark Horner, Northumberland, UK
"Just use www.answers.com......most of the world does. You will too.
Ralph, NW Sichuan, SW China"
...er right....answers.com gets it's articles from wikipedia so your point is what exactly?
sean, London, UK
@Ralph in China: answers.com takes much of its content from Wikipedia, so it's not like you're avoiding the site.
Kirk, Yigo, Guam
You may want to check out the articles about each of the current MPs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Current_British_MPs
Feel free to improve. :-)
Tom J, Liverpool,
Just use www.answers.com......most of the world does. You will too.
Ralph, NW Sichuan, SW China
If one requires a reliable and comprehensive description of a subject then one should be prepared to delve deeper and look elsewhere. In providing a quick and easy source generally accurate information, Wikipedia is a useful resource.
Luke, Sheffield,
I expect he viewed the article about himself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Johnson
Anyone can edit it, and anyone can check the references (footnotes) and external links. Of course it's useful! (And yes, I agree with Malcolm.)
Tom J, Liverpool,
It strikes me that the minister may not actually know how the information on the site is created.
Wikipedia, and its mimics, are an example of consensus reality, and has very little basis in scientific fact.
What many *believe* to be true is propogated as fact through Wikipedia, regardless of the informations factual basis. What this often boils down to is opinion being pushed as fact.
Ergo to say it is a useful educational tool is a complete misnomer.
Would the minister say the same of Enclycopaedia Brittannica was made up of entries from random people with no vetting?
sam, sussex,
"Trust but verify", Mr. Johnson.
Dev, London, London
Used in conjunction with other resources, Wikipedia is a fantastic resource. BUT, if you can't refer the assumed facts to another source, then you are not researching properly. Dialectics people, not didactics, is the single best way to learn.
Jennifer Hynes, Plymouth, UK
Wiki is a "good place to start," if you really haven't got a clue. It should never be used or cited as a source of reliable information, or at least no more than any public media outlet.
L. Zyla, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
It should be noted that Larry left the site in 2002. The article gives the impression he left quite recently.
David Gerard, London, UK
Wikipedia is a cult, like Scientology - as some of the comments here illustrate. It has its own Newspeak too:
Less reliable means it's more reliable! Written by kids means its sounder than something written by experts! Doubleplusgood!
Sorry, folks - you can't vote for the truth.
Paul, London,
Used appropriately, Wikipedia is an engine for learning. Nothing that
happens in a school approaches the intense experience of editing on
Wikipedia with others about subjects you are learning. Feedback is
nearly instant, with constant demands that any assertion be justified by
reference to a reliable source. To foreclose use of and editing of
Wikipedia by students is to block off a very valuable resource.
Citizendium is a competing effort and may eventually amount to something.
Fred Bauder, Crestone, Colorado, USA
Wikipedia, goes hand in hand with Google. If you want to know something, you search google and ask it for wikipedia reference. Despite the above article and Mr Sanger 's rather negative view, such and practice will continue to increase exponentially and people (of all ages) continue will glean knowledge and learn something from the experience. Dysinformation, is by no means unique to the internet and wikipediai should certainly not be regarded as a leading culprit. Long may it reign!
Justin Bikram, Bournemouth, United Kingdom
It's a competitor to Wikipedia. Why this attack on reliability?
With citizendum he wants to come back to a "controlled" knowledge.
Don't worry.
John Doe, venice, italy
Graham Clemie sounds worryingly like a snob. Government ministers are rarely professionals in the area of their brief. I'd say this is a good thing, preventing insider views from prevailing. So, what's the problem with a postman running Education?
Pietro, Leeds,
Wikipedia's great - one of the best sites on the web. The fact that you have to cross reference before you take something as fact doesn't make it a useless tool.
Most books are controversial in one way or another and most non-fiction titles express views that are refuted elsewhere!
Larry Sanger is on a bit of a PR tip at the moment. You can't blame him, but you can't say he's right either.
Dan Matthews, London,
Wikipedia seems fairly useful for factual information, so is great for straightforward projects. It also often has good links. I think the problems are with more subjective and/or obscure topics.
Mary, Southampton,
What? The person who is trying to establish a competitor to Wikipedia says that it's ineffective? Surely not?!
Mark, Woking, UK
What do you expect when you put a postman in charge of the nation's education?
Graham Clemie, Dorking, Surrey
See www.wikitruth.info for some of the dysfunctional behaviour of the community.
That said, i still use wikipedia frequently.
Alex, Bristol,
Wikipedia is actually a better educational tool because pupils know that it can be edited by anyone. It forces pupils to check sources, and to determine which details are worth tracking down and which can be accepted without real risk. There's nothing like a crtiical attitude to one's textbook.
Malcolm McLean, Bradford, UK