The problem now is that children have no discipline in school and can virtually do as they please with no telling off's as we used to get. That leads them to push the boundaries even further and cause trouble for the police. I am certain that if proper and rigid discipline was brought back into schools and police officers bothered to tell off children riding bikes on pavements or without lights, things would then get better gradually. As for targets, with this Government nothing surprises me and no one seems to take responsibility for errors.

alan, london, UK

Could not 'traditional discretion' itself be questionable?
Until this is written into Law by Parliament there is no such thing.
What to one person is 'traditional discretion' can be cronyism, nepotism, class bias and even racism when seen from another viewpoint.
Our police are only enforcing the Law as it is written. If we do not want such ludicrous Law we should deal with the cause not the effect. For many many years the level at which 'disputes' become crimes has lowered. Protection of individuals has been demanded by vociferous pressure groups intent on creating a 'harmonious nirvana' where we all agree - with everything spouted by the pressure groups.
The whole mess needs taking by the scruff of the neck and being given a good shake.
Oh dear was that 'incitement'?

J D S, Cardiff, Wales UK

Do not blame the police.(from a retired Chief Superintendent)The crux of the problem highlighted is the Home Office rules on how forces are required to record crime. These rules now result in incidents which were never recorded as crimes being recorded (adding to the admin burden on officers)
The rules have developed and are rigorously audited(more resources) to try and provide consistent data for comparison of force performance.The application of the rules do result in police activities being influenced(the example given of drunk and disorderly - not a crime as compared with a public order offence which is a crime.)
Only a move a way from centrally driven targets will get rid of police forces chasing targets, some of which frustrate operational staff and public alike.It is far less the case that officers are doing things to achieve personal targets set for them - there is more than enough work for all police staff to achieve those.

Ken Willis, Northampton,

I think these examples say more about the arresting officers than the policy. No minister would be dumb enough to tell a P.C. to target for arrest 2 kids with toy guns. Duh! Todays Times also contains an article relating to the way Blairs Delivery Unit addressed street crime: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/the_blair_years/article1790129.ece

Tom, W4,

I work with the Late night economy as a Door Supervisor and have done so for 15 years. I am also acknowledged as a conflict professional (registered), which makes me qualified to teach how to manage violence etc. I think I know a violent situation when I see one!

Often there are serious offences committed inside or outside a venue, pub or club. Often the Police let the individuals go and we are left bruised and disillusioned.

It tends to be towards the end of their shift-changes.

There are still some very good officers out there that are also on the other side of the fence caught up in the politics.

Fernando Rose, Basingstoke,

The suggestion is that it is numerical targets or quotas that are driving these idiotic actions. Numerical measures or performance indicators are a useful tool to know where performance is headed, but they must be the right indicators. Jim Reason (a well respected organizational psychologist) talks about pursuing the 'wrong kinds of excellence'--and here are excellent examples. It is not the number of police actions, or even arrests, that is important--it is the numbers of serious crimes for which convictions are obtained, or reductions in the the numbers of assaults that are accomplished.

Is this too difficult to understand by the decionmakers?

John W, Dublin, OH, USA

The almost puritanical obsession with league tables, audits, performance indicators, statistics and target setting, as part of a centralized bureaucracy and financial control system, are delaying decision-making and stifling action and progress. When such goals are set much time and effort is expended on monitoring and reaching the target but once achieved there is a general relaxation of effort. Organizations that demand data, hoard information, keep records, produce and quote statistics and set targets are showing signs of weakness and distrust of employees rather than trusting and motivating. To be of any use targets have to be realistic and designed for a purpose; targets must not be gimmicks intended to placate, patronize or pacify the recipients of services or goods; targets should and must be determined with one sole objective and that is to meet the needs and demands of the intended recipients of the service or good whether customer, client, patient or general public.

Kenneth Armitage, Suffolk, England

Many years ago a new senior police officer wanted to sack a village policemen who had made no arrests in ten years and was 'obviously unfit for the job'. Fortunately a more intelligent not-so-senior officer pointed out there had been no crimes in the village in those ten years and the village policeman was, therefore, doing a very good job.

He'd have been sacked today. Labour's whole technique is to demonstrate how good they are by constantly achieving targets.

Targets they set for themselves.

And people still fall for it. One despairs of the intelligence of anyone who votes for New Labour.

Roger Tilbury, Worthing,

To David Matthews, High Wycombe
You clearly have not got a clue what police officers do. We do WORK! If you would like to come and do a shift with our team, you would see how hard we work, how under resourced, how we need every means of gathering evidence including CCTV and the public.
Officers are TARGETED, and if you don't hit targets, you are reprimanded.The reason you do not see officers, is frequently there are so few of us, spread thinly. I have known shifts recently where there have been 3 of us to cover an inner city area, with 66,000 potential customers.
Your comments show your ignorance of what some of us are up against. If you don't believe me, give a thought to becoming a Special Constable, it will give you a valuable insight into whats it like at the front end.
Agreed senior management should stand up to government, but then its their careers on the line. Meanwhile please don't insult us at the front end frankly its insulting!

D, South West, UK

If the police actually "worked" at catching criminals rather than constantly relying on the public or cctv to help, then maybe they would get closer to their targets. As it is they are seldom seen and use the excuse that 90% of the local force must stay inside licking envelopes containing speeding summonses. Picking easy and ridiculous misdemeanours and targeting the old and the young to fill a quota is not a reflection of the quota targets, its a reflection on the work ethic of our police force. The police are big enough to stand up for themselves, we paid a 5.5% increase in council tax for them this year,however, with their constant bleating of "lack of resources" as an excuse for every one of their consistent failures, perhaps they should be hunting for the little boy who cried wolf.

David Matthews, High Wycombe, UK

If police are doing stupid arrests to make the targets they are set,

What are nurses and doctors doing with their targets?

and teachers?

Alastair , Manchester,

I have one question for Bill Reece of France: "who said sense was common??!

Annie, Cambridge, UK

I don't think it is the government's fault alone (David St Albans) but a system of growing bureaucracy that is creeping into our lives every day, every year. I don't envisage the dark side of "1984" but yes, our lives are more studied and Big Brother can watch us!
Documenting in the police force, and hosipitals helps to build a picture of us.....sadly, to cover their professional reputations, everyone is forced to document the most trivial things as if they are of monunmental importance! It is this part of the new society that is saddest, as the cliche goes "What happened to the good, old-fsahioned copper?" Or nurse, doctor, in fact!

Tim, Naples, Italy

The bigger problem by far is that while police are forced to meet targets by grabbing at trivial 'crimes', they're actively discouraged from pursuing REAL crime because the clear-up rate is poor, the work is longer and harder without instant result, and it looks bad on the statistics. The police will leap to arrest for throwing buns. You try getting them to attend a burglary, or take action in an out of school bullying assault where there's blood, injury and grounds for a GBH charge? They vanish faster than snow off a hot brick. Not because they don't care, but because while their skills and input would make a huge difference long term to the people involved, it won't end in a clean prosecution and it'll mess up their targets while taking up too much time. Total waste of their time, skills, expertise and training, being political servants and not police.

Helen, Northants,

This is what Weber described as the irrationality of rationality!
As the police are driven to rationalise the way in which they work to meet the bureaucratic processes put upon them, its the processes themselves that become important. The reason why the job was created in the first place then either becomes lost in the bureaucracy or is of no importance anymore.
Changing the way the police are measured in effectiveness from mainly quantitative (numbers) to qualitative (quality) will address many of these issues.

Dr. Colin Rogers, Glamorgan,

Why dont the police use some "COMMON SENCE" they dont have to book these people for these minor offences. Compared with the French Police the UK police are not in the same league. French police are always visable and doing roadside checks on tax and insurance and tougher on overloaded lorries. The UK police union should stop complaining and encourage our police to get out and be more productive,after all they are the highest paid in Europe.

Bill Rees, PIEUSSE, FRANCE

You miss the point. Of course 'real' crime should be investigated and punished but cautions or arrests for these relatively petty offences might just stop worse crimes later on. The man throwing the glass of water might just throw the glass next time. Assault is assault however it is perpetrated.

Jo, Newcastle,

This report is indicative of Labour-run criminal justice system - forget about the old lady was hospitalised by some junkie for the fiver in her purse. It's much easier and looks better on government forms to chase the low level stuff like cucumber throwing, un-PC speech, 71mph on motorways and the most heinous of all crimes - not being able to afford your council tax.

Still, it's another nail in the Labour coffin, and that for one thing, must be applauded.

Steve Lee, Gillingham, England

If the police actually "worked" at catching criminals rather than constantly relying on the public or cctv to help, then maybe they would get closer to their targets. As it is they are seldom seen and use the excuse that 90% of the local force must stay inside licking envelopes containing speeding summonses. Picking easy and ridiculous misdemeanours and targeting the old and the young to fill a quota is not a reflection of the quota targets, its a reflection on the work ethic of our police force. The police are big enough to stand up for themselves, we paid a 5.5% increase in council tax for them this year,however, with their constant bleating of "lack of resources" as an excuse for every one of their consistent failures, perhaps they should be hunting for the little boy who cried wolf.

David Matthews, High Wycombe, UK

Ten years of inept, statistics-driven, poorly thought-out government, what can you expect?

David, St Albans, UK

This is why we need to have elected District Attorneys who would direct police activites - and priorities - in their geographical areas. Problems differ from area to area. "travellers" in southern England, violent assaults in city areas etc. A DA who gets results in accordance with local issues rather that a whitehall-imposed target would get re-elected to his or her well-paid job - and could go on to national politics with a solid track record. Fail and you're out ! Why not give it a try ?

David Thomas, Burnham, UK

This state of affairs is almost unbelievable: decades ago police constables in the UK were trusted to exercise judgement. Presumably there simply was not the money available then to create paperwork or use up the time of public servants in the way that we do now. At the age of 12 I received an old fashioned clip round the ear from a policeman for a misdemeanour which involved the irresponsible use of an air rifle: no one was hurt and no property was damaged but the policeman was right to respond in this way. The incident was dealt with summarily: I thoroughly deserved the fierce reprimand and understood this. I was reminded of my legal and social responsibilities and warned to behave more considerately in future. The incident went no further and was soon forgotten but my respect for the police and the law was firmly established. How is it that we have reached this absurd state whereby kids are arrested for throwing buns or slices of cucumber? What went wrong? Is arrest appropriate?

J M B Stiles, Helsinki, Finland

The puritanical obsession with league tables, audits, performance indicators and statistics, as part of a centralized bureaucracy and financial control system, is delaying decision-making and stifling action and progress. Further, when targets are set much time and effort is expended on monitoring and reaching the target but once achieved there is a general relaxation of effort. Organizations that continually demand data, hoard information, keep records, produces and quotes statistics and sets targets is showing a sign of weakness and distrust of its employees rather than trusting and motivating. To be of any use targets have to be realistic and designed for a purpose. Targets must not be gimmicks designed to placate, patronize or pacify the recipients of services or goods; targets should and must be determined with one sole objective, to meet the needs and demands of the intended recipients of the service or good whether customer, client, passenger, patient or general public.

Kenneth Armitage, Suffolk, England

This had been going on since the labour party took over trying to govern the country. As an ex bobby it started with accidents and crime, we had two reports a long report and a short report. These work well until we were told that we had to fill in new accident/crime books. So from writing up an accident which would take about 30 minutes it then took an hour. This has continued to todays state of affairs where a bobby goes out arrests two shop lifters and is stuck in at the station for the rest of the day.

Terry Dixon, Oldham, uk

Our police executives are totally out of touch with the concept of protecting the public.

Selection of officers is based on the criteria of sexual orientation, racial origin, and sex and not on suitability, competence or physical size.

No wonder the streets are no-go areas for the elderly and the weak.

alan bond, lancaster, england

I see it as all part of the police state which New Labour is forcing on Britain. To oppress the people into submission so they can then do as they like, any dissent and we are criminals or worse terrorists. Using the police forces to carry out their undemocratic dictatorial hidden agenda. This has been shown to be the case now on numerous issues.
What is this governments hidden agenda?

Sandra marshall, Bedford,

I swore an oath to protect and serve the public.

I don't ever remember swearing an oath to hit government targets!

We are not paid on performance, we are paid to serve the public, but are acutely aware of hitting targets. Problem is, there are too few of us and there is at times bearly enough hours to do the existing daily jobs without clearing existing crimes. Not an excuse just a fact.

Its depressing to all who serve as police officers, targets are to make politicians feel good about themselves or to use against their adversaries in Parliament.

Dave, Bristol, UK

And all this is happening while people are using mobile phones while driving with apparent impunity, drivers are spraying light in other drivers eyes by using fog lights in perfect visibility...

You'd have thought there was plenty for a target-seeking force to work on without getting silly.

PR, Cornwall,

It's all part of the great mirrors trick, we are constantly told we are under threat (oh help us! help us! great powerful Government) . More surveillance, more trivial "intents" being punished and all the while serious crime goes unpunished. Only a few months ago our Prime minister suggested some kind of screening for children, suggested age 11, for future crime potential. I wonder where this will lead...size of earlobes perhaps, slope of brow maybe as indicators of criminal tendency?

How much more of this before it becomes truly Orwellian?

I must dash, I need to loiter with intent to catch a bus.

Paul, Hertford, Hertfordshire

The police seem to be saying "we can't help it - orders are orders" - echoing another organisation that thought it had no individual responsibility.
They all want the benefit of official approval when they do these bizarre arrests - don't let them say otherwise.

john cramer, strathfield , australia

I'm a criminal barrister and the sort of things that come to court now are absurd. I've defended the trials of a 14-year-old boy accused of assault during a playground kickabout (it was a bad tackle), of a 13-year-old girl who threw a Cadbury's Cream Egg at another girl and a boy who stole 1/2 a bottle of gin from his step-mum's garage.

These proceedings cost thousands and are utterly futile. They only serve to undermine public confidence in the system - you should see the looks of exasperated bafflement on the faces of the parents I deal with!

TW, London, UK

This Orwellian farce is only going to get worse now that Lord Falconer - he who presided over the Millemium Dome fiasco - has landed the job of Secretary of State. We can expect more fudge, more cost, more waste, and yet more spin.

Joe, Singapore,

There is method in the madness - doesn't every person arrested have to give up a DNA sample which is then entered into a permanent database? Roll on the day when the entire population is impaled and wriggling on the pin of state scrutiny.....

Michael, Cairo,

The need to meet government targets appears to have turned the police against the very people they are supposed to protect, and whose support they need if they are to do their job effectively.

Martin Evans, Newmarket, Suffolk

Duff on crime, duff on the causes of crime......

Rick, London, England