Times Online and David Cracknell, Political Editor of The Sunday Times
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Labour and opposition MPs joined Muslim and civil rights groups today in voicing concerns over proposed new anti-terror laws designed to give police powers to stop and question anyone in the UK.
John Reid, the home secretary, who is quitting next month, intends to extend Northern Ireland’s draconian police powers to interrogate individuals about who they are, where they have been and where they are going.
Under the new laws, police will not need to suspect that a crime has taken place and can use the power to gain information about “matters relevant” to terror investigations.
Anyone who refused to give their name or explain what they were doing could be charged with obstructing the police and fined up to £5,000.
Mr Reid’s cabinet colleague Peter Hain, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, warned the tough new anti-terror restrictions could become “the domestic equivalent of Guantanamo Bay”.
David Davis, the shadow Home Secretary, said that the “draconian announcements” appeared to be more of a “wish to project the reputation of Mr Reid and Mr Blair in their last weeks in office, than a need to protect the British public”.
He added: “The Government should understand that no amount of new draconian laws will make up for incompetent implementation.
“We will consider carefully every proposal the Government comes up with and support those we judge to be effective, reasonable, and will not act as a recruiting sergeant for terrorism. This cannot, and will not, be concluded in four weeks.
“A consensual approach to terror laws is the right approach to take but will take some time.”
Bertie Ahern, the newly re-elected Irish Prime Minister, said Northern Ireland had been looking forward to the amendment of restrictive legislation introduced during the Troubles.
He told Sunday Live on Sky News: “International terrorism is something nobody can take for granted and nobody can ignore... but it would be a pity if that continues what has been a very restrictive regime in Northern Ireland which is certainly not something that the ordinary citizen likes.
“I think people in Northern Ireland would feel that whatever is going to be the legislation everywhere else should be the legislation in Northern Ireland.”
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There is nothing good about this. I think that anyone who thinks this is acceptable needs to keep in mind that their civil liberties are being raped by the government. It is like people who don't mind CCTV all over the place because they have "done nothing wrong." Okay, then when you want to scratch your bum, or need to cry, or just want some fresh air in private, having CCTV operators in your personal space is okay too. The thing is, when the government takes a little of your privacy and rights here, and a little of your privacy and rights there, soon you have no privacy. I have honestly never seen a more apathetic public as I have seen in the UK, especially England. Seriously, watch V for Vendetta if you need a refresher.
AB, Wirral,
This proposal is little different it appears from 'Judges Rules' which allowed stop and search if a constable reasonably suspected. This power regrettably was removed with PACE, and over the years knife and gun crime has increased. You can have all the laws you like against knives and guns but if you can't stop and check someone if you reasonably believe them to be in possession of a prohibited article then possession of guns and knives is going to continue to rise and ultimately terrorism. We must ask ourselves if our safety, security and historical freedoms is worth being potentially stopped in the street. I believe it is worth it and fully support this.
Ben Rolt, Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire
The people that think this is even remotely a good idea are completely looney.
Eric, San Diego, CA
I have nothing to hide and I totally trust the State to look after my welfare. I really cannot understand some of the daft comments on this page.
Next thing you know, someone will suggest that politicians should be able to remove themselves from the Freedom of Information Act or the Metropolitan Police should refuse to identify those officers who executed Jean Charles de Menezes on the London Undergound. Pah!
James Lomax, Norwich, UK
You do realise that this means, shock horror, police officers ON THE BEAT!!! Can we accept that? It isn't normal!
I hope they use profiling and don't stop Anglo-Saxon grannies just to be seen to be even handed. So far all those described in the media have Islamic-type names.
Dr Nick Ashley, Huntingdon, England
is this not one of the reasons we have this alleged war on terror, just to enforce new normally unreasonable restrictons on our liberty in favour of improved national security that we could all really do without? isnt this why 911 and 7/7 were orchestrated? so we all submit to these infringements? is it too late to turn this situation around or have too many ppl swallowed the bait already? is our next pm going to give himself rights of dictatorship as bush recently has? or will they pander to our concerns and manipulate us in a more subtle, more nefarious manner? the future is...(mobile phone company director who heads govt mobile phone safety legislaton)
neawl, london, uk
I, for the first time, refered to the police as "pigs" yesterday . I will not cooperate or give them any assistance at all in future; they are not to be trusted. A bunch of politicised target hunters. Like everything else in this country that was of any worth, the police force has been hollowed out in the interests of new labour politics. They do not have your interests at heart, simply a bunch of labour party groupies toeing ther line, at the top level. Sir Ian Blair anyone?
jono, Cambridge,
Why would the police need the power to stop and question someone if they did not suspect them of commiting a crime?
James Phylip-Jones, Wirral , England
I guess I will have to face jail then. I for one would not cooperate with such an appalling invasion of my privacy. Labour are no longe a democratic government, they are a gang of fascists beheading my beloved country.
The "if you have done nothing wrong" argument is the reason why Labour have got away with introducing the most treasonous legislation this country has ever seen.
Blair IS Franco, and if you think it is all harmless if yo uare innocent, remember, Blair, like Franco, has had innocent people arrested on trumped up charges simply for voicing opposition to his policies and ideals. He is NOTa democratic political leader, but a tyrant who pays lip service to the democratic process.
That is NOT the British way. As the saying goes, use it or lose it and if you don't fight for your rights here, then you have no right to complain about the government. You bring your lack of freedom upon your own head. We are a nation of rebels, always have been, now we need to prove it.
Jennifer Hynes, Plymouth, England
Stop & question, stop & search. The police need these powers. It's ridiculous not allowing the police to ask someone questions & not being able to do anything if they get no answer or are told lies. At present the police have to have a suspicion or reason in order to stop & search someone. If they were released from their manacles the public would be better protected & the offender would be less likely to try their luck. These laws are needed to get us back to the days whereby the risk of getting caught at it outweighed any advantage the criminal thought they had. We made the mistake in the early eighties of cow-towing to the ethnic & religeous minorities under the pretence of good community relations & repealed the stop & search law - this played into the criminals hands & they took full advantage of law & order's soft policies - just look how weapons are carried as a matter of course now by many of our violent criminals who are disproportionately from the ethnic & religious minority
Lynda Plum, London, england
Tony Blair says that we as a society chose to put the civil liberties of foreign suspects first. Wrong, we chose to detain foreign suspects. This was deemed to be a breach of ,I think, the EU driven Human Rights legislation as British suspects were not treated exactly the same. As a result we merely ask foreign suspects if they would mind staying indoors, well perhaps most of the time. The further result of that has been seen this last few days.
D.L. Stephens, York, England
lets check first on those corrupt politicans!
they need to be watched 24/7 by MI5 and be exposed.
we need jihad in the UK ,to change this useless system!
LONDONJIHADI, london, uk
The police already have enough powers to stop and search if they have reasonable grounds to do so. Extending these powers to stop anyone they wish without good reason might be perceived as harassment.
s sadek, Taunton, UK
I find it a bit rich that Muslim groups are protesting about this legislation. It is afterall, Muslims living in Britain, that have brought us to this sorry pass, when everyone's freedoms are being destroyed, just so as not to appear to be profiling. No other immigrant group shows such hostility and even designs to usurp the state, as do Muslims.
DaveP, Beverley, UK,
One rule for one sector and anothner for the rest of us.
Extreme crime demands extreme action.
It is regretable,but necessary.
Bernard Parke, GUILDFORD,
If Liberty and any Muslim organisation think this proposal is a bad thing, then clearly it is in the interest of normal law-abiding citizens and should be on the statute book post haste.
simon, greensboro, nc, usa
How can the UK opt out of a basic right? If this country is not careful it may end up like the former Western states before the wall came down, £5000 for not saying who you are, but having done nothing wrong and because they feel like it
Kenneth, Banchory,
Like my ancestors over the centuries, I was born and bred in this country. I have been stopped and had my car searched twice in a week, for no reason other than it is a big car. I had no complaints and never would have. I also carry a full I.D. at all times. it only takes a few seconds for the police to check one's I.D. What's all the fuss about?
Incidently, this has been going on for many years, but nobody has made it official. If a policeman suspects that something is unusual, you will be stopped. How does he know that all is well unless he checks? I've spent time in other countries throughout the world, and it isn't much different.
David Jones, Isle of Wight, UK
What you get when the police have too much power is that they become blaise and think that they can walk all over you without a care in the world, like is described at www.unprofessionals.co.uk
If I saw the UK becoming a safer or better place to live because we gave the police more powers perhaps we could swallow it, but that surely cannot be said.
John, Woking, Surrey
Can we track down all the people who use the "if they have nothing to hide" line and publish their detailed biographies on the web, including medical record, list of former partners, voting history, log of all contacts with all government agencies, all previous addresses, and bank account details? I'm sure they won't mind.
Jeff, Cambridge, UK
Mr Ahern has never lived in Northern Ireland and has not got the faintest idea what he is talking about.I have lived in Northern Ireland for over 50 years and the Powers given to the Police have never caused any problem to the vast majority of the people of NI.If you have nothing to hide there is not a problem with this type of legislation.Unfortunately we live in a much more dangerous world today and we all have a responsibility to support and do whatever is needed to protect our country.We had to live through over 30 years of terrorism in NI something the Irish republic knows very little about.If these powers come into force for the rest of the UK then so be it,they worked very well with some great results over the years in NI.Mr Ahern would be better to mind the affairs of the Irish Republic instead of poking his nose into the affairs of the UK by talking rubbish about the "Very restrictive regime in Northern Ireland".We should be supporting any measure to support the security force
Alan Cromie, Lisburn, Northern Ireland
Mr Ahern has never lived in Northern Ireland and has not got the faintest idea what he is talking about.I have lived in Northern Ireland for over 50 years and the Powers given to the Police have never caused any problem to the vast majority of the people of NI.If you have nothing to hide there is not a problem with this type of legislation.Unfortunately we live in a much more dangerous world today and we all have a responsibility to support and do whatever is needed to protect our country.We had to live through over 30 years of terrorism in NI something the Irish republic knows very little about.If these powers come into force for the rest of the UK then so be it,they worked very well with some great results over the years in NI.Mr Ahern would be better to mind the affairs of the Irish Republic instead of poking his nose into the affairs of the UK by talking rubbish about the "Very restrictive regime in Northern Ireland".We should be supporting any measure to support the Police
Alan Cromie, Lisburn, Northern Ireland
By invading two Islamic countries and killing thousands, Mr Blair/Bush have increased the terror threat. Now, what Mr Blair is doing, is known as 'covering his a**'.
Mohammed, London, UK
If *they* have nothing to hide....
Sums up Victor's ,George's and Joe's mentality - obviously they think they're never going to be bothered by this.
With this government (and possibly more authoritarian future governments - if that's possible in the UK), anti-terrorism legislation is used for all kinds of purposes like evicting heckling pensioners.
So wake up you three idiots and think that it may you one day!
Adnan, Reading,
Re New Security Measures
Predictably the Civil Rights tree huggers, various dissidents and the Muslims are at it again, moaning about our wish to run our country as the majority wishes. The majority are peaceful citizens who just want to go about our lawful business without the possibility that the well publicised threats of terrorists who declare their intentions of destroying the West will come to pass. No person I have spoken to disagrees with our police having powers to carry out compulsory indentity checks. Our safety is what we have the police for so let them do their job without constantly having to be more concerned with political correctness than stopping crime.Only those who don't want to obey our laws organise rentamob type demos trying to overturn government measures designed to protect us. Tony Blair and John Reid are at last trying to get a grip on the farcical systems which have made Britain the soft touch of Europe. I trust it will not be too little too late
A R Llewellyn, Cardiff,
When I was a young man in the 70s, the police would regularly stop me and ask me to identify myself as I walked from my fiancee's home to my own in the early hours. I thought nothing of it and simply complied, assuming that they had every right to do it as they were responsible for keeping the peace and fighting crime. It is only now that I realise that this was gross infringement of my civil liberties and that I was being harassed and abused without any justification and I am thankful to fearless fighters for civil liberties like Inayat Bunglawala and dear Shami Chakrabati for bringing it to my attention. There ought to be someone from whom I can claim compensation for my hurt feelings but I think it unlikely. However, I can assure them that my horrific experiences did not alienate me from the police or from society at large and I have not become a terrorist. In fact I should be very happy if the police continued to walk the beat in the early hours of the morning as in my youth
Cliff Pooley, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
I think that we might as well call ourselves prisoners until proven innocent (unless of course you are a police officer, MP or anyone else that thinks they themselves deserve different treatment) as that is the way this Government is taking us now.
John, London, UK
"Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, argued that the new powers would lead to young Muslim men being disproportionately targeted.
That's because terrorists are disproportionately Muslim.
In fact correct me if I'm wrong, but its not so much disproportionate as exclusive. What do they want exactly, Chinese and Caribbean men being quesioned as well, for the sake of equality??
And I would feel better disposed towards their community if they acknowledged the threat of terrorism, from where it comes, and the necessity of policing it, instead of protests such as his - a spokesman who has himself come under suspicion re. his ideological position.
Excellent news! - more powers, yes.
Joe, Manchester,
if they have nothing to hide..what are they scared of.
george whyte, cardiff, uk
At last, we shall have a police force that will do the job right. If one does not want to be stopped, then look right, do not go around looking in a most mysterious ensembles hoods right over your face, standing around in 'gangs' yes stop as many as possible and lets rid ourselves of the rubbish that roams the streets, and puts fear into not just the elderly but to many who walk looking carefully.
victor arram, westclff on sea, uk
Once again Mr Blair talks as is nobody else understands terroism theatens our way of life and our freedoms. Once again he shows that he does not understand that an over mighty State is an even greater theat
James pullen, st ives, Cambs