Sam Coates, Political Correspondent
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Plans to give police new powers to stop and question anyone were in disarray last night as supporters of Gordon Brown gave the proposal lukewarm support and police leaders questioned its usefulness in the fight against terrorism.
The Home Office confirmed yesterday that it was examining whether to extend a version of the “stop-and-question” powers available to police in Northern Ireland to the rest of the United Kingdom.
Under the proposals, people refusing to give their names or explain what they were doing could be charged with obstructing the police and fined up to £5,000. Tony Blair said yesterday that it would be a “dangerous misjudgment” to put civil liberties before fighting terror.
But the Home Office proposals faced criticism from Cabinet members, MPs of all parties and Muslim and civil rights groups, who said that it would drive a wedge between the police and sections of the Muslim community.
The proposals were outlined in a leaked letter to the Prime Minister from Tony McNulty, the Counter-Terrorism Minister. He argued that stop-and-search powers used by British police were overused, unpopular and did not enable an officer to ask individuals who they were or where they were going.
He wrote: “Therefore, a less intrusive power of stop-and-question that could be used by the police in the first instance would be useful. The effect of this power should, therefore, be to reduce the number of times stop and search is used.” The Police Federation welcomed proposals for police to get new powers, but said that the immediate connection to fighting terrorism appeared “abstract”.
Speaking on The World This Weekend on BBC Radio 4, Mr McNulty said that no decision had been taken and that legislation was unlikely to emerge before October or November.
But allies of Mr Brown appeared lukewarm about the proposals yesterday, insisting that police would be allowed to stop and question someone only where officers had a “reasonable suspicion”. Home Office sources insisted last night that the issue had yet to be decided.
Peter Hain, the Northern Ireland Secretary and a Labour deputy leadership contender, went farther, saying the restrictions could become “the domestic equivalent of Guantanamo Bay”. He told Sunday AM on BBC One: “We cannot have a reincarnation of the old ‘sus’ laws, under which mostly black people, ethnic minorities, were literally stopped on sight.”
Ed Miliband, a close ally of Mr Brown, said that he was “not in a position to judge” whether it was a good move, and Alan Johnson, the Education Secretary and another deputy leadership contender, also avoided backing the idea.
William Hague, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, said: “We will listen to the proposals . . . but they have to be proposals consistent with popular consent in this country and with not alienating the people whose cooperation we need in the fight against terrorism.”
Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman, accused the Government of seeking a “police state”.
Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty, said: “This looks like political machismo, a legacy moment.”
Search results
22,700
stop and searches were carried out by officers from the Metropolitan Police last year
27
led to terrorism-related arrests
1,126
arrests under the Terrorism Act 2000 between 2001 and 2006
117
of those were charged with terrorism legislation offences only
104
were charged with terrorism legislation offences and other criminal offences
Source: Times database, Muslim Council of Britain
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When growing up in the West coast of Scotland the police ran a program called Operation Spotlight which meant that they just stopped youngsters and took their details and then searched them for knives, etc; It didn't bother me getting stopped with my friends, the police were normally really friendly and it made the streets safer than they are now.
I currently live in Colombia where everyone has an ID cards (and police do random checks) and when signing documents you use your ID number, name and give a finger print (which is also on your ID), you sign debit/credit transactions using your name, ID number and telephone number (optional) and I have to say, I am a lot less worried about someone using my card illegally or taking out loans etc; in my name. If they did a simple finger print analyses would prove it to be a false contract of whatever kind... the cards also contain blood type which I never knew until I got here. I honestly don't understand the fuss, most countries have them.
G, Bogota,
Why are so many people coming out in support of this? Stopping people for the sole purpose of requesting their identification is a further step down a road that we shouldn't be on in the first place.
But do not fret, good citizen! Our spendidly foresighted government has already set up an agency to help us in our time of need. They are ready and waiting to provide us with a superbly convenient card so we may prove who we are. Truly we are blessed with good fortune, for is it not said that "it is part of being a good citizen, proving who you are, day in, day out"?
Henrietta W, London, UK
Stop & question, stop & search. The police need these powers. It's ridiculous not allowing the police to ask someone questions & not being able to do anything if they get no answer or are told lies. At present the police have to have a suspicion or reason in order to stop & search someone. If they were released from their manacles the public would be better protected & the offender would be less likely to try their luck. These laws are needed to get us back to the days whereby the risk of getting caught at it outweighed any advantage the criminal thought they had. We made the mistake in the early eighties of cow-towing to the ethnic & religeous minorities under the pretence of good community relations & repealed the stop & search law - this played into the criminals hands & they took full advantage of law & order's soft policies - just look how weapons are carried as a matter of course now by many of our violent criminals who are disproportionately from the ethnic & religious minority
Lynda Plum, London, england
"Police, traffic wardens etc"
Traffic wardens!??
Gary, Belfast,
I do not understand how 'stop and question' would help fight terrorism. How is it going to be inforced? Once stopped and questioned is your name going to be put in a database some where.Terrosist are professionals and surely would have legitimate answers when stopped by the police and asked what are you doing here? where are you going?
What would happen is more blacks and muslims would be stopped.
Christopher , London,
I'd like to tell Tony McNulty that the stop-and-search powers used by our police are not as unpopular as he seems to think.I've been stopped and searched, and was delighted that the police were carrying out this task. I was then able to use the underground station feeling re-assured,as were all the other commuters involved.If it helps prevent one terrorist attrocity it is a small price to pay.
I always think of the old saying that it is better to be 30 minutes late in this world that 30 years early in the next.
Mike, Dunstable, England
How many Civil Liberties have we actually got left? How many will be allowed to keep?
Id cards, total CCTV surviellance, detention without trial (mental health act), police right to demand Id and destination, HMCE powers of entry, USA extraditiion treaty.
I think I will always be allowed to shop and pay taxes but I think the rest of our freedoms will be given up in the name of terrorism and protecting our freedoms.
It is always good to know that the authorities do not make mistakes and only use these powers on 'bad' people. Fortunately, they tell us who the bad people are by using these powers on them. Hang on a minute!
Mike Hinsley, Bristol,
Sorry Jo, You go for it if you like, i live in the U.K. where once you where a citizen but are now treated as a suspect or a potential enemy of the state, as to "politically correct world" that is exactly why we are in this mess in the first place, it has been the mantra of Tony Blair and his Government and is their legacy. I ask myself the question do i want to live in a democracy or an oppressive totalitarian regime overseen by control freaks?.
Don, leeds, u.k.
Stop messing about and get on with it. Don't forget the ID cards as well.
Rob, Bristol,
I Policed in the 1960s until the 1990s. Co-operation and consent allows one to carry out this task. Forget race, colour or creed, it matters not. The Police are here to make the place a better and safer place for all to live in.
Civil liberties are paramount and should be held highly in our democratic country, but, to achieve this, laws have to be in place to give safety to all.
CCTV is a great tool, but it only helps after the event to indentify. Stop and speak and, as a last resort, seach if appropriate, in the right way can only help to make all safer.
I do note as I enter the autumn of my life and qualify for a free bus-pass and other concessionns by showing proof of identity, which is supported by a photograph, there is no resistance by the hundreds of thousands who do this daily on trains, buses and other concessionary venues to anyone who asks to see the proof.
Michael, leicester, UK
And the police still wonder why now even the middles classes distrust and despise them!
Mike Bibby, St Albans, England -not EU
Isn't all of this just a warm up for the introduction of ID cards? Less about terrorism directly and more about this government's continued obsession with everything nanny?
It was recently reported that up to 15 million Brits would refuse to provide either the card or personal information about themselves if stopped (Sunday Times 8th April). Isn't this all a convenient preamble to bringing in legislation, which will deter such people from refusing to go along with the card scheme?
Wasn't it Oscar Wilde who said I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting below the intellect.
Well, it would certainly seem with the current government that we have both brute force and brute reason and for one reason or another there is absolutely no attempt on their part to hide it.
Tom, Katowice, Poland
You say these powers are to be extended "to the rest of the United Kingdom". Are you sure about that?
They don't have "shoot-to-kill" in Scotland where policing and justice are devolved matters, do they?
I think you will find that this is another example of what was tested in Ireland being introduced into England and Wales. But not into Scotland.
john , Las Palmas de Gran Canaria,
Throughout the troubles in Northern Ireland, the use of such stop and search powers has demonstrated a significant bias based on religion, geography and class. Creating unease and resentment between the police and the policed, the guiding principle of 'security for the greater good' has had a detrimental effect effect on both civil liberties and police community relations. Winning communities over rather than inventing new barriers is the key to a more equitable delivery of security and justice.
John, Belfast,
At last a bit of lateral thinking. Too often in this now politically correct world, we constantly tip-toe around the elephant in the room for fear of upsetting someone.
Police, traffic wardens etc should have powers to walk up and ask the question 'what are you doing' when they see something or someone suspicious. 'Yes, but what is the definition of suspicious??' I hear the civil libertarians shouting.
Quite frankly, in these troubling times, virtually everyone. And that's fine with me. Best to ask the obvious question than sit back and then think "I should have". Go for it.
Jo, Melbourne, Australia
Of course, the only way one may be certain of satisfying the demands of the Police to satisfy one's bona fides when stopped and searched is to produce unimpeachable evidence of one's identity.
Of course, carrying an identidy card is not to be made compulsory but it will take a little longer to satisfy the demand for information unless it is actually carried and produced when stopped
A similar sleight of hand was used under the Tories in relation to the right to silence. Of course one may exercise the absolute lawful right to silence but a rather unpleasant consequence will attach by way of adverse inference to anyone foolish enough to pray in aid of it!
Iolis, Preston, Tyrrania Britannica