the last time i witnessed anti-social behaviour was a group of youths preventing a train from departing at Victoria Station. The Guards alerted the Police who met the youths with smiles and a 'softly-softly' approach; tackling the issue head-on was obviously too much of a bother, or too much hassle had there have been any arrests. It struck me that the police either cannot be bothered or have their hands tied, and i am loathe to suggest which.

As an arrogant 15 year old, would i respond to a "come on lads, time to go"? i doubt it. would i respond to a "if you dont leave now, sunshine, i'm going to warm my truncheon on your rib cage"? more than likely. Would i have thought this behaviour unfair? no less fair than getting a clip around the ear for making an innappropriate comment about someone wife.

Arrogant young men respond to threats of pain. A trip to a Police station is at best an inconvenience, at worst another addition to their street-cred.

Simon Mawdsley, London,

Americans demand strong law enforcement, and they often get it. There isn't a politician in this country that doesn't preach the "tough on crime" rhetoric. Victim's advocacy groups and holding politicians accountable through the electoral process are probably the most effective ways to increase protection from crime.

On the other hand, armed citizens cause more harm than they prevent. Accidental firearm deaths and crimes of passion are the most likely result of owning a gun in the home.

The unfortunate side effect of increasing arrest and detention is that the yobs go to jail with professional criminals and are effectively apprenticed to become much more effective and dangerous criminals themselves. They need to be punished, but the punishment should be short, effective, and not expose them to even worse behavior. From the outside, that looks like going easy on them, but the reality is the harsher you treat them, the worse they become.

Mr. O, Morro Bay, California

When carrying of handguns by law abiding citizens is regarded as a heinious crime why cannot the carriage of spray cans of MACE ( a type of tear gas) not be legalised?


Just a question on the side. If Hamilton had used petrol to murder all those children in Dunblane would petrol have been a banned substance by now? Would the whole country be running on diesel?

W D Toulman, Walkington,

If we were armed , then that would suggest a society with a greater tolerance of guns. It would also mean there would be far more firearms available than at present. So won't there be more guns around for the baddies too? You can't ensure that only the good guys will be armed, much as I would love to be able to swagger around armed to the teeth, spittin' tobacco at all the varmints on the streets.
And what happens when two "ordinary" citizens, both armed, argue? Gunfight At The OK Corral, that's what.
More effective punishment for offenders is needed, not turning us all into Wyatt Earps.

Richard Martin, Sheffield,

When you disarm the law abiding citizen, the criminals rule the streets. The sort of behaviour mentioned in the story and in subsequent comments should never be permitted nor tolerated on the public streets. In cities and countries where hand guns for the ordinary citizen have been banned, the crime rate increases as they yobs have nothing to fear. If I were to confront a group, I would want a good stout club and I would be more than willing to use it. I think the answer may lay in a "guardian angle" type operation or perhaps even better, a squad of civilian vigilantes to put the fear of god into these young punks.

lilcolonial girl, Tampa, Fl, USA

James in London,

When we find a handgun that gets up of its own volition, stalks and kills an innocent citizen without human assistance, THEN we will worry about getting rid of handguns. Or, as one Archie Bunker put it, "Would you prefer it if they'd all been pushed out of windows?"

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

USPatriot, Orlando, Florida

You simpletons! It has been both by common knowedge and statistically shown that in U.S. cities where there is a right to carry a concealed weapon the rate of assaults has been drastically reduced. The rate of accidental injuries has not risen, and would be lower if rudimentary training in the handling of firearms were more widely done. It may not appeal to your prissy and self righteous attitudes but the truth is there.
Joe Hawkins
Bodega Bay, CA

Joseph Hawkins, Bodega Bay, Calif. U.S.A.

If you knew the police where going to turn up, and that the law would support you should you intervene, then more people might be prepared to have a go. I recently confronted a drunken yob trying to break into a neighbours house and I was more concerend about being arrested for assault should I have to defend myself than of the yob.

What we need is a clear and umabigious law that allows citizens to defend themselves, their property and that of others without fear of prosecution. We also need to simplify the consequences of crime. A three strikes and you are out rule.

For the first offence (unless one punishable by life in prision, and this means life not twelve years) you would have a numebr of years proprotionate to the crime, this would increase further on a second offence, and on third automatic life sentence no parole. Finally, we need prisions that are just that, not the equivalent of an hotel at the tax payers expense.

Chris, Cornwall,

Here are a few ideas:

1) Scrap the ID scheme and put the money into police on the streets where we need them. 2) Reduce the red tape faced by police so that each officer can spend MOST of their time out on the streets. 3) Spell out in law what a citizen can do when faced by anti-social behaviour or an agressive group of youths. 4) Have prison sentences that really are a detterent. If a criiminal knows he will face 30 years behind bars if he or she kills someone in cold blood, maybe some of them will think twice.

Andrew Brown, derby, UK

Blair and Brown's pathetic Ministers have kept on telling us to call the police, but when we do we are told that there are none available, since they are committed elsewhere to 'high priority' policing. It's no wonder that people are arming themselves with knives and guns to protect themselves. And the blame sits fully with this incompetent bunch of fools called nu Labour.

harry, maidenhead,

If our overpaid for what they do police state force was not so lazy, full of trivial excuses as to why they cannot attend incidents, run by the ever increasingly dangerous politically correct brigade types we as decent law abiding citizens would not have to put our own lives on the line.
These politically correct head police officers who have infiltrated our system, frightened of losing their cushy jobs were given the sack and proper coppers brought in then things would change and the thugs would be on the run.
Backing down at every opportunity is also the death chant of New Labour.
This little island of ours did not fight wars and protect the world for it to be infiltrated by what is virtually a fifth column of criminals.
The legal aid system should be scrapped for everyone who is not indigenous to this country.

Robert Parker, Royal Leamington Spa, England

“Yet the police can hardly be expected to swoop down on every group of teenagers hanging out in hoodies.”

Years ago when my dad was in the police force they had the power to read the riot act to dispurse groups of youths looking for trouble. Yet another power removed from the police's arsenal.

It's time for people to start organising and start forming vigilante groups like the Guardian Angels to take their streets back. I for one am sick and tired of seeing and hearing these yobs wreaking havoc.

The police might not like it but at least the guardian angels have the balls to do something about it. Whereas, the police are as much of a physical presence as Mr Burns off the Simpsons.

Take it back to them people... but as organised groups.

Jamie, Sheffield, England

Yobs are likely as not prepared and able to inflict maximum violence on you and without warning. If you’re not prepared to do the same to them, you will lose. If you’re not sure if and how to inflict physical injury, then walk away.

dave foulkes, Dorking, Surrey

Some interesting points but I think a large problem here is a lack of understanding of violent confrontations on the part of many middle aged men. A couple of years ago my then 50 yr old diabetic and arthritic dad was attacked after my brother had done a fine impression of robbie savage over 90 minutes in an under 18 football match. The boy made 3 unsuccesfull atempts to atack my father, with no one outside the family attempting to intervene. Unfortunately for the boy my dad is also a 50yr old former army sergeant who boxed at regimental level. On the third attempt to attack my dad his team mates joined in... to find his teeth.

My point is simply don't get involved if you don't know what you are doing. To rush in unprepared is simply rash,not brave. A fool can be rash, but an intelligent person judges the situation before getting involved. Forty kids? Call the police. 6 or 7 approach with caution, don't get encircled and do not approach them in a manner liable to antagonise.Think

CA, Manchester,

One has got to question who is the aggressor. We live in a society where adults are just as aggressive/passive. You only have to turn to the work place to see the level of aggression. Very little passion and too much competitiveness. Kids are kids and should be treated with a bit more respect only that the level at which one draws this line is a matter of opinion. Adults need to learn to become a bit more assertive. The Police are just as bad trying to recruit on grounds of sex, gender, colour, disability and what ever which is at the expense of quality.

Chan, birmingham , Birmingham

I intervened, successfully I thought, when I late at night stopped a drunk who was harrassing another man who clearly he didn't know. Several minutes later, however, I was knocked to the ground by this same drunk (who had, unknown to me, followed me) and was kicked unconscious. I won't be doing it again. The bravado of those who say they would intervene is well-meaning, but misplaced.
As for the suggestion that the police should be involved - I dialled 999 when I regained consciousness a few minutes later (and it turned out a local resident also had). The police never arrived. They telephoned me 24 hours later and asked if I'd like to make a complaint. The suggestion that I'd like them to have turned up and caught my assailant was met with silence. Small wonder that nobody wants to know.

Mark, Plymouth, Devon,

It won't be long before the adults in certain areas , don their own hoodies , armed with baseball bats take the law into their own hands ... and who could blame them . Civilised societies should not be held to ransom by criminal teenagers ... what has this country become ?

Benzo, Nr Chelmsford,

Catherine, Hungerford writes: "Approaching these evil yobs is as dangerous as approaching a hungry lion or bear."

And what typically do we do when confronted by such a wild animal? We shoot them dead.

Mike Mitchell, Spalding, England

We need to discuss this in an honest way. What we are seeing is the failure of Britain's multicultural society. Most of these gangs are from ethnic minorities, or whites mimicking those gangs. It is very unwise to step into a fight if you don't know your strength. Much better to use other tactics to draw attention to the fight and get the police involved. One man in middle age trying to take on a gang of youths is sheer idiocy. We would be better off thinking long and hard about the society we have, and why it is going bananas.

Bob Macdonald, London,

If you don't intervene it will get WORSE.

WAKE UP!

I have intervened, several times, and I feel stronger every time - try it; at least you'll feel like you earned a broken nose protecting your country against the animals that have been allowed to breed unchecked in it.

If you're too weak to intervene then CALL THE COPS - they work for you!

The blame for the way things are lies with you and me now, not the politicians - oh yes, it's their fault originally, but we have to be responsible and clean up their mess before it buries us.

I know it's not fair, but neither is life......we have to pull together before it's too late.

Mr O, Brighton, UK

James Dan is accurate. Where there is an introduction of a liberal concealed gun carry permit, since it varies from state to state, a dramatic reduction in crime is the result. This is fact and not fiction.

The murder rate is a result of many variables and not because of the availability of guns. America has had much lower gun crime and murder rates in its past and yet there was even more availability and more of a right to own and carry a gun. Again, this is fact and not fiction.

What is needed is for conditions to go back to the way they were in the past where strict discipline and respect was expected and demanded by adults and law enforcement agencies. The right of a citizen or subject to defend himself, his family, and yes property too, with lethal force if necessary, should never be questioned.

Allen, California, America

Social programmes are reinforcing this bad behaviour through Christian values of turning the other cheek. Time to instill social values through fear of retribution.

My other point is that if we were able to vote locally for a police commissioner whose sole responsibility is to local populations then I think we would get what we want a set of community rights enforcible by our locally elected police.

Would I have a go - indeed I would.

CD, Epworth, UK

In the states they would have guns.
Perhaps the civilians should be
allowed to carry them (guns). That would tend to take care of knife threats.

Patrick, Lakewood, Ohio/USA

As litigators say, "Never ask a question to which you do not already know the answer."

The same applies when becomming involved in a street altercation. Never engage unless you are fairly certain of what the outcome will be. That is usually ensured by bringing more force to the event than the yobs can muster. It's not a question of actually using the instrument of force that you bring; that's not always necessary. However, in an altercation you always want to make sure that the balance of power is extremely weighted in your own favor. That's how you leave the altercation alive.

In the States, a simple display of a handgun is often enough to quickly de-escalate a situation, even without removing it from its holster. However, one will hardly read about such prevention statistics in the U.S. national press - it's not favorable to the liberal mantra adopted by most media sources that all weapons are patently evil regardless of their use and that all handguns are used to kill.

Scott, Durham, NC, USA

Here in the Pacific Northwest we have a concealed carry law for legaly licenced citizens, though I don`t personaly carry it does seem to work.

Barb J, Seattle, USA

Weak, underconfident arguments, presented as liberal thought, have handed the streets over to violent criminals. Criminals are strutting and confident because they know the cards are stacked in their favour. Their rights to intimidate and beat people are prioritised over the rights of their victims. That's not liberal; it's anti-social. The criminals'-rights professionals need to be challenged again and again. Some of them are calculating and cynical - they earn so much from this chaos - others are just daft. Those who want to re-establish a civilised culture have to argue against them without fear of being called this-wing, that-wing or non-PC. They need to be taken to task for their theory and practice which support the violent against the vulnerable.

catah, london,

I am coming round to sharing the views of the Americans, in that, the ordinary citizen should be armed.
Forty odd years ago on the streets of Glasgow I witnessed one police officer dispersing a local gang. Fear seemed to be the motivating factor. It appeared they were scared that there might be a van load of hostile bobbies about to arrive.
Nowadays a van load of bobbies is about as intimidating as a bunch of hug me quick social workers.

John MacKinnon, Lincoln, England

Chances are that, if one tackles these yobs, one is likely to be the one to wind up being prosecuted. My family suffered 123 years of vandalism, harassment, assault, attempted arson etc., until I threatened the local council and police with handing the entire story to the national press.

I had councillors and police officers at my house within three days.

John Lockett, Burnley, Lancashire

In the states we carry our own guns.
They are effective. Just point and shoot. "Never bring a knife to a gun fight."

Patrick, Lakewood, Ohio/USA

Remember the film Clockwork Orange? We have reaped what we have sown. Liberal attitudes in schools, no manners, no respect for personal property. The filthy language that seems to be the norm, and the young and some of the older generation have no moral values. Even some whose family life looks as if it has its own gang culture are beyond the law.
Every one who appears to drop litter, swear, cause a nuisance, lack self control. Primal urges seem to rule them. Whether this relates to too much booze, eating on the hoof, or creating mayhem, etc. They have no inkling of what a sense of social responsibility means.

I also think there is no class divide here, looking at all backgrounds there is not much difference in behaviour!

I reckon our European neighbours are right, we've had it!

mags, Bournemouth, Dorset UK

We live in a country where the government has legislated how family life can be conducted, as they know better how to bring up children. The result is no disipline at home and general disrespect for everything. These kids are never told "no". If you put your hand in flame you dont do it again. If they act violently, they are mearly met with words. Big deterrant! Most folk who get hurt in "have a go" situations do not have experience with use of violence. So basically they cannot deal it out more effectively than those they try to fight, the result is they get beaten up or worse. The law says that you can "use reasonable force" to defend yourself. Reasonable force on the street is when your opponant/s cease to be a threat - not when you've done enough to run away. What if they can run faster than you, where are you then? These kids are bullies and the only way you stop a bully is to give them a bloody good slap upside the head - they'll only stop when they dont win anymore. Dad of five.

Jess, York, UK

my wife and i returned from France because we missed England-yes it has it's problems as other countries do but all it seems to a far lesser degree!!
the thing that most struck us after four years away is the loutish behavior of so many YOUNG & OLD......the lack of basic manners (Education) the rudeness the utter ignorance they posses as to effect of their behavior.
We must all remember that these are still a minority -but unfortuntly far too vocal...and of course far too physical . they have little fear of judicial proceedures- (if caught!) and on sense of responsibilty-and no level of accountability will be imposed.
Where were those on community service during the recent floods???
We have a state of affairs now where it is deemed safer, 'in law' for reasonable persons to ignore than to intervene for fear of 'legal' repercussions should the courts deem one to have overstepped the mark.

mike, oxford, england

Because of some notorious court cases, the impression today is that the ordinary citizen will be prosecuted for fighting back. When the case comes to court the ordinary citizen will be alone and will face losing their job and good name, if convicted. The yob, meanwhile, will be supported by social workers and will be defended by lawyers provided by the state. The punishment handed down to these yobs is often derisory. Tidying up the park on community service is, I'm afraid, no deterrent. It would be worth reintroducing corporal punishment on a trial basis for everyday yobbery.

Janet, London,

Remember the film Clockwork Orange? We have reaped what we have sown. Liberal attitudes in schools, no manners, no respect for personal property. The filthy language that seems to be the norm, and the young and some of the older generation who have no moral values. Even some whose family life looks as if it has its own gang culture are beyond the law.
Every one who appears to drop litter, swear, cause a nuisance, seems to have a lack of self control. Primal urges seem to rule them. Whether this relates to too much booze, eating on the hoof, or creating mayhem, etc. They have no inkling of what having a sense of social responsibility means.

I also think there is no class divide here, looking at all backgrounds there is not much difference in behaviour!

I reckon our European neighbours are right, we've had it!

mags, Bournemouth, Dorset UK

Remember the film Clockwork Orange? We have reaped what we have sown.

I also think there is no class divide here, looking at all backgrounds there is not much difference in behaviour!
Those from affluent backgrounds are just as disgraceful, as was shown earlier in the Hunt the Chav video.
It is open season all year now, everyone is a potential victim.
More Robocops needed I think.

mags, Bournemouth, Dorset UK

"Blame the parents", "Have a go", "Make the yobs fearful" and the ever-amusing "The public are disproportionately fearful".

Utter nonsense all of it. Social history will tell you that one - and only one - factor encourages a society to behave and that is strong law and order. Strong law and order means that laws which impose behaviour-changing penalties are applied by a uniform justice system in a uniform way after criminals are caught by an effective police force. Adequate numbers of police with local knowledge on the ground in local areas, backed by an impartial and non-activist cadre of judges and supported by a penal system (jail) that ensures a truly miserable experience will vegin to turn-around this miserable state of affairs in today's England..

Any politician with a hint of a spine willing to take the above as a handbook?

John Blackley, Austin, TX, USA

Yes Mr Toulman, you will escape that particular trauma.

What will happen though is that you will become a target of the perpetrators. You will have you windows broken, your car vandalised, your property daubed with graffiti and your loved ones threatened or even beaten in the street.

On calling the 'control centre' possibly twenty miles away, you will be subjected to a twenty minute interview, more about yourself than any of the people you are reporting and then be told that an officer will be along 'in due course.'

Two days a later a Community Support Officer or two will turn up, tut, cluck, make some sympathetic noises and give you a crime number if you need to claim insurance.

I have actually been to my local Police Station in the UK, in a town of 60,000 people and found it closed.

It's all far too far out of control.

Pu Li, Guangxi,

There used to be respect for the police when they were tough young men and visible on the streets.
Now when you do see any they seem very often to resemble Ken Dodds diddy men and women.
All shapes and sizes and ages-When you do see them that is.

peter, Kings Lynn, norfolk

Dan - when the United States' murder rate reduces from the 10's of thousands to no more than a couple of thousand a year, then you have a point.

James, London, UK

On 'having a go', it's harder for men than for women as many men feel they 'mustn't be cowardly' and so they wade in - only to often end up getting killed.
I, as a (lucky) female feel no such pressures and, at any sign of threat, would have no shame in running away fast or locking myself behind my front door and lying low. I would call the police - such as they are, I know!
Dying for a vandalized car or bus shelter, or a bar of chocolate, or litter is not worth it. All it leaves behind is decent men dead and bereaved families.
I would use any means (fair or foul!) to strongly dissuade any male friend or relative of mine from 'having a go'.
For goodness sake stay alive and 'unheroic' rather than end up a dead hero!
Approaching these evil yobs is as dangerous as approaching a hungry lion or bear. These young psychopaths are just that - they have no remorse in killing outright if they feel their fun is being spoiled.

Catherine, Hungerford,

I would encourage every right minded, law abiding citizen to take on the yobs. In this country the police and the authorities have given up - re-enforced by the PC brigade. If ordinary folk don't do something now then in 10 years it will be worse. No amount of spending by Brown will get us out of the mess. There may be casualties and of course those taking on the yobs will be treated as criminals - but the sacrifice has to be made.

Sparks, UK,

The yobs are nothing but home grown terrorism, they seek to terrorise law-abiding citizens because they have nothing better to do. The government is spending billions and billions to avoid any terrorism attacks on places like airports, the probability of which is far less than the terrorism on Britain's street. Not trying to minimise the impact, but the attacks on airports provide a panicky sense of fear on the mass public; however the attacks on the street are on individuals are ignored with a rationale that yobs are uncontrollable and one was just unlucky to be at the wrong place at wrong time.
Neighbourhood team or the community police officers are nothing but a joke. They have no power and no authority; unfortunately the yobs know that too.

L Fox, Pinner,

"Yet the police can hardly be expected to swoop down on every group of teenagers hanging out in hoodies.”

Why exactly can't they? The police and the government feel it fine to blame this on parents and on celebs. But the truth is, that if there were actually any police officers on the streets in these areas, with the power to actually do anything it would significantly reduce this kind of behaviour.

Being 15 should not mean you get off lightly, they should be punished like any other member of society. If I were to react to a group of 15 year olds attacking me, it would be me, and not they in trouble with the law.

It is disgusting, and the police need to do something about this. IE get some actual police officers on the street!!

Ashley, Bolton,

Since the introduction of "concealed carry" legislation we don't have so much of this problem in the USA. Someone intervening might well be armed - and the bad guys know it ! The take-up rate for concealed carry is typically only around 4% - but the yobs and hoolums crucially don't know which 4% : better to be safe than sorry. Regular foot patrols were abandoned over here in the 1960s, same as in the UK, but this only works if it is balanced by the ability of good people to defend themselves effectively. In the UK you seem to have the worst of both worlds : criminals with no apparent dificulty in acquiring weaponry together with the law-abiding being effectively disarmed

Dan Corbin, Phoenix, AZ USA

Cliff Lyons,“People are entitled to challenge these yobs’ behaviour." Thats a lie, what he should have said is "People are entitled to challenge these yobs’ behaviour but not to violate their human rights to freedom of expression, or to force them to stop what they are doing."
this is why i moved from the UK no police no one to help. blaming the parents is the easy way out.

Dave , Beijing, China

When I moved to Windsor from Australia a few years back I couldn't believe the level of anti-social behaviour. I made the mistake of going to Slough - I had a knife pulled on me, in broad daylight, because I made a passing comment to my mate that the bike lying on the footpath was 'nice'. In Windsor, going to the pub after work I was pelted with milk, rocks, eggs etc. by a group of around 30 yobs who were sitting on the embankment next to Windsor Castle. The list goes on. Compared to other European countries England has a massive problem. I love England, but when people are being stabbed to death for standing up for their rights, something has to be done.

Alex, London,

The problem is that there is no political will to fight the yobs. Like it or not, they are protected by the human rights brigade who scorn the rights of society to protect itself. It is one thing to risk an attack- many would be prepared to do so - but when the authorities consistently support the bad guys, and go out of their way to punish those who intervene, then decent people will increasingly walk on by. That appears to reflect the wishes of the Brown cabinet. Clearly the Brownites have their own agenda- that does not appear to include protecting the innocent.

Doug, Glasgow,

A few inconvenient facts: 1 - The police have no duty of protection to individuals. 2 - The police cannot be everywhere, all the time. 3 - Criminals are quite aware of the above and their slim chance of being caught in the act. 4 - The law-abiding public are forbidden by law from carrying on their person any "offensive weapon" since an early 1950s act of parliament. Subsequently extended to encompass anything which "could be construed as an offensive weapon" 5 - The public are thus effectively disarmed and at the mercy of violent criminals. 6 - There will be much media comment and discussion of this, quite probably some idiotic legislation which further bears indiscriminately on everyone, but actually affects only the law-abiding (like firearms legislation). Finally - 7 - The situation will only get worse until the above nettles are grasped. Don't hold your breath though !

J B Kelly, Wakefield, UK

There is an interesting biological phenomenon known as operant conditioning: an organism acts on the environment, if the environment bites back, the nervous-system is programmed to hesitate before repeating the same act.

There is another phenomenon whereby youngsters think they are invincible, until, I presume, such time as the environment had bitten then enough to dispel the notion.

One of the problems with young people today is the lack of operant conditioning in their lives.

For adults, the problem lies with the government. Successive governments have for many decades now stripped us of the right to defend ourselves (a life-preserver for example was a 19th century truncheon, and governments accepted people's right to preserve their lives with one). The policy is of course more about taking power from people than protecting the public. They have also completely denied us the right to administer operant conditioning, necessary for our dignity and children's safety.

Lawrence, Liverpool, England

It is not worth getting involved. If the yobs do not kill or injure you then they will run squealing to the Police; who will then charge you with assault for laying a hand on them.
The only thing to do is get your mobile phone into action and get the forces of law and order out of the station to sort it out.
Your prompt and forcefull action may save a senior citizen from a mugging, a girl from being raped, or a young copper from being beaten to death. You may also end up charged with GBH fo being too forceful. You will have your inaction on your conscience. However you will not have the trauma of being dragged through the courts by the Police and the CPS.

W D Toulman, Walkington,